Where does the fantasy genre go next after Grimdark? > Likes and Comments

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Imo, fantasy has already moved on from grimdark. If you look at whats popular now and has been for a few years now, it is definitely skewing towards a lighter tone and more likeable characters. One of the big mainstream fantasy trends these days is "cosy fantasy", although I am not a big fan myself.

Also, I would argue strongly against GRRM being the one who introduced grey morality to fantasy (or political schemes, for that matter). Grey morality has been part of modern fantasy practically since its inception, with Conan and other Weird Tales stalwarts. And the tradition was certainly carried on throughout the 60s-80s. Also, Assassin's Apprentice was published a year before A Game of Thrones, if we are talking politicking and complex characters. Perhaps a less popular opinion, but imo Hobb runs rings around GRRM in terms of characterisation, prose, and politicking.

I left grimdark behind years ago. I like hope in my books. I can't say that I've missed the bleakness, and it seems as if lighter genres are becoming more popular, as NekroRider mentioned.

I broadly agree with Nekrorider and Michelle.

Grimdark was a 'wave' and like anything in popular culture, books, music, movies, many surf the wave until it's gone. There will be another one along in a minute. Cozy and Romantasy are probably the current flow. I think in part that is because fantasy has achieved greater mainstream visibility/popularity of late. The Game of Thrones factor, if you will.🙂 Until the last couple of years you never saw fantasy books on supermarket shelves next to the thrillers and beach reads. Now the shelves are awash with dragons. Take a closer look though and it is 80% enemies to lovers Romantasy.😆

I am not a fan of either cozy or Romantasy on the whole and sometimes it can be hard to know if you have accidentally picked one of these up until you get into the book.

That being said, I am not sorry to see Grimdark decreasing in popularity. As I have gotten older, I am far less tolerant of the unbearably bleak. In the past I admit it might have had a certain dark satisfaction but now.... well the world is so damned dark for real that I don't want to read about something even worse in my leisure moments.😂

And yes, anti heroes and the morally grey didn't begin with GRRM, they have been around in fantasy since almost the beginning and you could even go back further than that,to the myths, legends and folk lore that inspired a lot of fantasy.

He didn't invent all the political shenanigans either when he drew from British history for his template but he has popularised it as a major component of recent fantasy books. The medieval (ish)political thriller with added dragons is another wave, which hasn't quite hit the beach yet but it will soon.

They all do. But like all waves, they leave stuff behind on the beach for people to find and repurpose. Often the result is more interesting than the original ever was. Someone, somewhere, right now is working on the next big thing, reshaping all these found things through the lens of their own sensibilities.

I have no idea what it is but I'm keen to find out.🙂

I mean if you want antiheroes who are morally grey, just read the The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever, that was from 1977 whereas A Game of Thrones was 1996, though the Chronicles doesn't have the politicking.

Also Game of Thrones written in 1996 didn't take off till 2011 when the TV series came out. Remember that Lord of the Rings movies by Peter Jackson came out in 2001, which was also the year that the first Harry Potter movie came out.

If I were to say there was something that made fantasy more mainstream it was the kids growing up on Harry Potter who just kept on reading fantasy, those books came out in 1997.

If anything GRRM benefited from that rather than the other way around because for example I owned A Game of Thrones for years before I got around to reading it because it was just another fantasy book at the time, nothing special (also the series was incomplete, as it will likely forever be and I tend not to start what I can't finish). And it was the show that made me go, oh, maybe I should get around to reading this birthday gift my cousin gave me ages ago.

Another thing that I feel drove fantasy into the mainstream are movie/tv special effects. Magic used to look fake in older movies, sure you could do great animation like The Last Unicorn, but look at the clunky stop animation in Clash of the Titans. Sure I've got nostalgia for that movie but its not exactly convincingly real. Once CG got to the point where magic looked real, I think more people took an interest, that maybe fantasy isn't just for kids.

Mind you lots of people thought Watership Down is for little kids, till the bunnies started ripping each other apart or are torn to bloody bits by dogs...

I never let my daughter watch Watership Down, having read the book myself, but her husband saw it and hasn't forgiven his parents yet ...

Some good points there... I think it's safe to say though that a lot of the fantasy being written now, is aimed at that new more mainstream audience and their tastes.

You can in fact, especially as a man, occasionally get some odd looks when you say you like Fantasy. A lot of people who don't really read it but have formed an idea of it from friends and relatives who do, think that Fantasy is Mills and Boone with Dragons and smut. It's quite a widely held opinion along with the other notion, formed from the Harry Potter association that it's Wizards, pixies and nonsense for the kiddies.

Hmmm... That sounded a bit like gatekeeping, it wasn't meant to. I didn't have the best night's sleep (I wrote that first post at 5:00am grumpy with indigestion and sleepless). Not being as clear as meant to be.

Fantasy is for everyone and there is a sub genre for all tastes. When a wave collapses, that sub genre remains and still has its audience, just as no musical trend ever quite dies.

So, I'm not casting shade on anyone for their taste in Fantasy.

I think I might have mentioned before, that, "Nothing is 'sad' if it makes you happy." And that, "we like what we like and we don't like what we don't like and so we should." No one is obliged to justify, explain, or rationalise their taste in books/music/movies/TV/art or any other subjective creative area.

I think I'm going to set a timer on my phone and take a nap now. 🤣

But I can see it. When I was in high school I borrowed Dragonlance from the school library but I didn't let anyone see it, it felt like a book for "boys". Glad I did it though since I never looked back, before that it was all horses and Babysitter's Club and stuff :) Not that they are bad, I still love The Black Stallion but SF/F is definitely my thing.

What with all the Romantasy and Paranormal Romance, I can see how maybe the gender viewpoint has flipped.

Hoping sword and sorcery gets more of a focus, specifically in the spirit of : Robert E Howard, Howard Andrew Jones, John Maberry, Fritz Lieber, Karl Edward Wagner. It's grim dark's grimmer, darker grandpa who had to do some things during the rough times of chaos and war that no one wants to remember.

I assume it all cycles, though you're seeing more super niche genres with more indie books. I don't like grimdark, but I don't like romantasy at all and barely tolerate cozy. I prefer creative worlds, epic and heroic fantasy, and stories with some mystery involved.

My mom is such a huge sci fi fan, I grew up thinking sci fi was "girly" and surprised to see boys interested in it.

It was just the opposite when I was growing up! I was thought strange for reading sci fi and fantasy since that was what boys read. Girls just didn't read those. It's so odd that people thought like that back then.

It was just my perception based on my household and didn't actually reflect reality.

I was in middle school and high school in the mid-90s-early 00s and yeah, I'd say fantasy books and d&d and such were still seen as normally "for boys." But I think what started swinging the penduluum a bit where I grew up was Harry Potter. I was just a tad too old to be into Harry Potter, but I was absolutely one of those metalhead teens (metal has always been a genre of music that is also tied to fantasy and horror fiction) who poked fun at people who were into Harry Potter for being "posers" lol. I remember being 16 and a guy in my friend's band picked a stage name after an HP character and we definitely poked fun. Picking a name or reference from LotR or Forgotten Realms or whatnot was fine, but Harry Potter? Looking back, I don't think the reaction would have been the same if he were a girl. Of course, now it all seems ridiculously silly, but I also find it weird, thinking back now, how gendered liking Harry Potter vs traditional fantasy was at that time lol In retrospect, I do think it was part of what started changing people's perception of "who fantasy is for." Funny enough, I still have never read Harry Potter, though 😅

True confession, I have never read a Potter book, or even seen one of the movies. Not sure why, don't think there is a rational reason, it just never appealed to me. Things have to talk to you don't they? It didn't. I still don't have any urge to read/see Harry Potter. Again, no shade intended on those who love that world.🙂 It is however, so ubiquitous, that when people talk about it, I am still able to follow the conversation, so long as they don't get to in depth with it. I have absorbed by zeitgeist osmosis, the main character names, place names, book/film names, general concept and such frequently mentioned stuff as 'sorting hats' 'dementors' platform 9 3/4 etc. Without of course actually, really truly, knowing a damn thing about them.😂

Robin wrote: "True confession, I have never read a Potter book, or even seen one of the movies. Not sure why, don't think there is a rational reason, it just never appealed to me. Things have to talk to you don'..."

Ditto. My daughter's copies have been on our shelf for six years and I only touch them to dust...

Robin wrote: "True confession, I have never read a Potter book, or even seen one of the movies. Not sure why, don't think there is a rational reason, it just never appealed to me. Things have to talk to you don'..."

ha you feel about HP the way I feel about Mistborn et.al the extreme popularity makes me more determined not to read it. IDK why my brother and sister both love it and even some not to keen on books coworkers love it. only thing i can think is the tik tok level popularity is now a read {he he let me point out the ironic typo here, meant red} flag for me because i got a book that tic tok said was awesome and it was NOT. poor writing and casual mentions of magical vampire sa ( like that's better), by page five. how does that make a popular book? and yet i've found some very good items based on popularity too.

i hope there are more things that would be considered sci fantasy i think the crossover books could be fun. like people going to other planets and finding a mix of aliens and typical fantasy creatures.

I don't believe anything on BookTok.

When I first read HP, my first child was 1 year old. It struck me as niche -- very British humor, mystery and intrigue -- and I was surprised it had a wide appeal. Movies are all right but pale in comparison. I am very suspicious of hyped books, but these ones earned it.

Isabella wrote: "I never let my daughter watch Watership Down, having read the book myself, but her husband saw it and hasn't forgiven his parents yet ..."

Watership Down and Artep in the swamp in Never Ending Story - movies that traumatised a generation of kids.

Robin wrote: "You can in fact, especially as a man, occasionally get some odd looks when you say you like Fantasy"

You did get a very different reaction if, instead of Fantasy, you said Lord of the Rings or Conan, they were considered much more acceptable. Also, I didn't think you're comments sounded at all like gatekeeping.

One of the few times I regretted reading something in public was when I was reading (no doubt suffering from some form of temporary insanity) the entire 10-volume Mission Earth series by L. Ron Hubbard. Regretted because they were not good books, and because I was constantly being approached by Scientologists when they saw his name on the cover 🙄

Beating back eager Scientologists with a stick😁🤣🤣🤣

Tony wrote: "Watership Down and Artep in the swamp in Never Ending Story - movies that traumatised a generation of kids."

OMG yes, that was me....also those beetle things in the Dark Crystal (heck, just about everything in that movie was kinda scary/creepy even Fizgig and those green running things they rode). I mean kids movies were scary back then, but at least they weren't mostly a sequence of fart jokes either. Like they took kids seriously and didn't have to dumb things down for them. And there was Legend, with the chopping of the unicorn horn and the giant devil villain. Even Labyrinth had a creep factor at times.

And yet, at the same time, I just listed most of my favorite movies from when I was a kid :)

On the other hand E.T. scared the pants off of me, I also couldn't handle Beetlejuice or Gremlins.

Tony wrote: "One of the few times I regretted reading something in public was when I was reading"

Ok for me was a bit different, I was on a bus reading The Day of the Dolphin and I didn't much care what anyone thought about that, until I got to a scene of very explicit dolphin sex and I was trying really hard not to laugh that I was basically reading dolphin porn in public :D I was like, if only those other people knew...

And what a rabbit hole we've gone down as far as straying off topic!

I don't know Andrea, maybe you have answered the original question 🤔 Q -Where does Fantasy go after Grimdark? A- Fantasy Dolphin Porn

I'm not sure grimdark is going away. Abercrombie has written, I think, 9 books since The blade itself and it doesn't seem like he's less popular, or is going to stop. GRRM may not (probably won't) ever finish A song of ice and fire, but for some reason he's still writing about the Targaryens. There are now 2 Game of thrones-adjacent shows.
It may never again be as popular as during Game of thrones, but that was a lightning in a bottle.

Robin wrote: "True confession, I have never read a Potter book, or even seen one of the movies. Not sure why, don't think there is a rational reason, it just never appealed to me. Things have to talk to you don'..."

I've never read the books, but I've seen the movies - long after everyone else. They're ok, but I guess I was just too old when the craze started. Plus I have this odd thing, I was a fan of Anthony Horowitz as a kid, and particularly of Groosham Grange. It's just weird to wonder if he thinks about what could have happened. I mean, I'm sure he's not starving or anything, but, well, he's not a billionaire.

I saw ET when it came out and never since -- I just didn't like it. There was a scene with dissected frogs jumping around the classroom that really freaked me out. I think I was around 6 years old.

I think we'll be seeing more and more subgenres but I doubt any will disappear altogether.

Agreed. Once invented a thing never really completely goes away. It will always have an audience.

Robin wrote: "Beating back eager Scientologists with a stick😁🤣🤣🤣"

Scientologists used to be a lot smarter about their recruitment strategies. I remember when I was in my early 20s (so it would have been the late 70s), I was in the city heading to Galaxy Bookshop - the major SFF bookstore in Sydney. I was approached by an absolutely gorgeous young woman, maybe a couple of years younger then me, who wanted to ask me "just a few questions". As a single guy, I would have been prepared to follow her anywhere - and anywhere was the Church of Scientology to do their personality quiz. The one where the results always seem to indicate that you need to join the church for them to help you.

The problem, for them, was that they needed the pretty girl on the street to attract more hormone-fuelled young men, so I was handed over to another member of the church, who I didn't find anywhere near as attractive, so I lost interest. I still did the personality test, but they had no chance of convincing me to join the church, and by that stage I was just keen to leave and continue on my journey to Galaxy 😆

Andrea wrote: "Tony wrote: "Watership Down and Artep in the swamp in Never Ending Story - movies that traumatised a generation of kids."

OMG yes, that was me....also those beetle things in the Dark Crystal (heck..."

You're right, kids fantasy movies of that era didn't dumb the story down for them and weren't all sunshine and rainbows. However, it's also the era that gave us Ewoks - Caravan of Courage, so they didn't always get it right 😆

Tony wrote: "Robin wrote: "Beating back eager Scientologists with a stick😁🤣🤣🤣"

Scientologists used to be a lot smarter about their recruitment strategies. I remember when I was in my early 20s (so it would hav..."

ha ha sounds like an interesting experience. where were you? cause the only scientologists i know of are in hollywood, wonder if they're more prevalent in Australia.

It happened in Sydney, and it would have been in the late 80s, when Scientology was more popular worldwide than it is now.

Andrea wrote: "I mean if you want antiheroes who are morally grey, just read the The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever, that was from 1977 whereas A Game of Thrones was 1996, though the Chronicles does..."

Good point re: the advance of FX tech elevating the popularity of fantasy.

Robin wrote: "Hmmm... That sounded a bit like gatekeeping, it wasn't meant to. I didn't have the best night's sleep (I wrote that first post at 5:00am grumpy with indigestion and sleepless). Not being as clear a..."

No gatekeeping detected! Good post.

Will probably turn on what sort of genius turns up with a brilliant new genre.

Possibly no-magic fantasy, so you can have another world and not worry about history when you write what would otherwise be historical fiction.

Mary wrote: "Will probably turn on what sort of genius turns up with a brilliant new genre.

Possibly no-magic fantasy, so you can have another world and not worry about history when you write what would otherw..."

Wouldn't that just be alternate history?