Is Nature Trying to Restore Balance Right Now? > Likes and Comments
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Michael wrote: "I’d love to start a thoughtful discussion around something I’ve been reflecting on lately. I came across a short but powerful book, Unforgiving Thresholds by Don Trudeau, and it raises an interesti..."Thank you for sharing this—it’s definitely a topic worth reflecting on.
I’ve always felt that nature isn't something separate from us. It’s more like a living balance that breathes with us and reacts to the choices we make. So, when that relationship breaks down, the impact isn't just environmental; it hits us on a spiritual and energetic level too.
I really like the word 'threshold.' Most big shifts don't happen overnight; they build up quietly until they reach a point where we can’t ignore them anymore, whether as individuals or as a society. It’s exactly like those ripples you mentioned—a small movement at the center eventually touches everything.
Do I think we’re at a turning point? Yes, I do. But I don’t just see it as a point of crisis; I see it as a point of 'awakening.' It’s not about nature punishing us, but about us finally realizing that we aren't separate from it at all.
The real question for me is: how do we fix our relationship with nature to find our own inner balance again? Because in the end, everything we see out there is just a mirror of what’s happening inside us.
Hi Michael and Cagla, Thank you for starting this interesting discussion. We are part of nature, yes, therefore any devisions between humanity and the rest of the planet exist only in our minds, in my opinion.
It is not just possible therefore, but even highly probable, that our actions trigger many changes within the planet, that will affect us- feedback loop completed :)
How exactly will this play out? Half of GR authors ( including yours truly) seem to be currently writing on this subject :)
Jasmine
I agree we are a part of Nature and there is a definite shift occurring. It can be sensed in how uncomfortable people are becoming day to day. Ignorance ain't bliss. We can either harmonise with the shift or the opposite of evolve.
In my experience it's best to feel your way through the confusion, as the external representation can trick you back into fear based habits and self destructive patterns of behavior.
Trust yourself
Mr Crown
Dr. wrote: "Hi Michael and Cagla, Thank you for starting this interesting discussion. We are part of nature, yes, therefore any devisions between humanity and the rest of the planet exist only in our minds, ..."
Hi Jasmine,
I liked the way you put this and totally agree with you.
It feels like more and more writers are circling around the same question lately, which probably says something on its own. Maybe we’re all trying to make sense of the same shift, just in different ways.
This is actually one of the core truths behind much of what I write, both in my books and in my essays.
It’s always interesting to notice how different writers engage with this theme in their own way. :)
Mr wrote: "I agree we are a part of Nature and there is a definite shift occurring. It can be sensed in how uncomfortable people are becoming day to day. Ignorance ain't bliss. We can either harmonise with ..."
Hello Mr. Crown,
I agree with your perspective. In times like these, it’s really important not to get pulled into fear, and to stay connected to your inner voice. Because what we see outside can often be misleading, and can easily pull us back into old fears and old patterns.
Maybe we can’t change everything happening outside right away. But when we change our perception, our perspective, and the way we relate to what’s happening, something outside begins to shift too over time. I think real transformation works that way: from the inside out.
Cagla wrote: "Mr wrote: "I agree we are a part of Nature and there is a definite shift occurring. It can be sensed in how uncomfortable people are becoming day to day. Ignorance ain't bliss. We can either harm..."
Dear Cagla,
you are of course, absolutely right :)
Religions (and arts) were saying the same forever, to give just one example:
Indeed, Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves.
-Quran, Surah Ar-Ra'd (13:11)
Have a great day :)
Jasmine
Dr. wrote: "Cagla wrote: "Mr wrote: "I agree we are a part of Nature and there is a definite shift occurring. It can be sensed in how uncomfortable people are becoming day to day. Ignorance ain't bliss. We c..."
Dear Jasmine,
This is one of my favorite verses. To me, it gives both the individual and humanity a very powerful truth, a very strong clue: real change begins within.
This is also what ancient teachings, spiritual traditions, and deeper wisdom have been trying to tell us for centuries. And little by little, scientific research is also making it clearer how strongly our inner world is connected to the way we perceive and experience the outer world.
To me, verses are not only religious reminders, but also deep signs pointing to the laws of inner transformation.
I really appreciated the way you brought the conversation here. Thank you for your comment.
Wishing you a lovely day.
Cagla wrote: "Dr. wrote: "Cagla wrote: "Mr wrote: "I agree we are a part of Nature and there is a definite shift occurring. It can be sensed in how uncomfortable people are becoming day to day. Ignorance ain't b..."Hi Cagla, thank you :)
I like your positive attitude, and I truly believe that despite the violence and chaos that is currently apparent everywhere in the world, " the transformation is happening". And you know, I do find (here on GR at least), that women tend to be far more positive and hopeful than men are, about the future of humanity.. I wonder why :)
Please consider contributing to this discussion?
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Have a lovely day, too :)
Jasmine
Dr. wrote: "Cagla wrote: "Dr. wrote: "Cagla wrote: "Mr wrote: "I agree we are a part of Nature and there is a definite shift occurring. It can be sensed in how uncomfortable people are becoming day to day. Ign..."Hi Jasmine,
Thank you so much for your kind words. I’m really glad our paths crossed here.
I feel the same way — despite all the chaos we see around us, something deeper is still shifting and transforming. Sometimes what looks like disorder on the surface is part of a much larger inner shift that is not immediately visible. In a way, harmony often arrives through chaos.
And what you said about women being more hopeful is very interesting. I tend to see the feminine and masculine not only as gender, but as energies that exist within all of us. In that sense, I feel the world today is in deep need of more feminine energy, as a way of restoring balance.
To me, feminine energy carries qualities like intuition, compassion, receptivity, care, patience, and the ability to nurture and protect life. Masculine energy, at its best, brings direction, structure, clarity, action, and strength. Both are necessary, of course. But I think the world has been shaped for too long by an imbalanced form of masculine energy — control, domination, speed, force, and disconnection from the heart. That may be why hope, empathy, and inner wisdom feel especially needed now.
And I believe men can also reconnect with and awaken that feminine energy within themselves. It belongs to all of us.
Thank you also for inviting me to the discussion — I’d be happy to contribute.
Have a lovely day too :)
Cagla wrote: "Dr. wrote: "Cagla wrote: "Dr. wrote: "Cagla wrote: "Mr wrote: "I agree we are a part of Nature and there is a definite shift occurring. It can be sensed in how uncomfortable people are becoming day..."OMG, Cagla, you are my "spiritual sister" lol... I totally agree with you- the world badly needs the nurturing, positive, healing feminine energy!
And all religions seem to warn against "hardening of the heart"... which appears to be common human reaction to all the atrocities we witness on the news/ personal life misery; we became " desensitised" to suffering, and its wrong.
Look forward to chatting more when we meet again :)
Take care,
Jasmine
Cagla wrote: "Dr. wrote: "Hi Michael and Cagla, Thank you for starting this interesting discussion. We are part of nature, yes, therefore any devisions between humanity and the rest of the planet exist only in..."
Greetings Cagla,
My experience has taught me the same lesson.
Our pathway of awareness starts internally. Virbrational(spirit) - Emotional - Mental and finally Physical is the path which produces our lived experience. This concept is explored in The Presence Process: A Healing Journey into Present Moment Awareness a practical guide that allows you to comprehend this shift in perspective.
A lot of the time the emotional body isn't given enough consideration. Emotions are held in the body, selfcare is key.
Keep showing up for ourself, and our path will reveal itself.
Peace
Dr. wrote: "Cagla wrote: "Dr. wrote: "Cagla wrote: "Dr. wrote: "Cagla wrote: "Mr wrote: "I agree we are a part of Nature and there is a definite shift occurring. It can be sensed in how uncomfortable people ar..."Dear Jasmine,
Being called your “spiritual sister” truly touched me — thank you.
I completely agree with you about the hardening of the heart. It feels like one of the deepest dangers of the times we live in — that little by little, people become desensitised to suffering.
Maybe that is also why I keep returning to these themes in my writing: how to stay open-hearted, soft, and human in the middle of so much chaos.
And yes, it’s truly beautiful to feel this feminine energy growing more and more through souls like us. It really does feel like a collective healing in motion.
Looking forward to chatting more when we meet again. :)
Love,
Cagla
Mr wrote: "Cagla wrote: "Dr. wrote: "Hi Michael and Cagla, Thank you for starting this interesting discussion. We are part of nature, yes, therefore any devisions between humanity and the rest of the planet..."
Hi Mr Crown,
I really resonate with this, especially your point about the emotional body. So much of what we carry is held not only in the mind, but also in the body. When emotions are ignored or left unprocessed, they continue to shape our inner world in quiet ways.
And yes, I believe self-care is essential on this path, because returning to ourselves is often where real healing begins.
Thank you for sharing this insight and for the recommendation!
With light,
Dear Mr Crown and Cagla,It is so very heartening (and reassuring)! that there are people like us, from completely different parts of the planet, and different life paths too, and yet we felt and experienced the same- there must be millions like us! The transformation is happening, and humanity will be just fine at the end :)
Jasmine
Dr. wrote: "Dear Mr Crown and Cagla,It is so very heartening (and reassuring)! that there are people like us, from completely different parts of the planet, and different life paths too, and yet we felt and ..."
Dear Jasmine, Yes — I feel exactly the same!
It’s a beautiful feeling to meet someone from a completely different path and still recognize the same truth within.
It really does make the world feel smaller in the best way, and the transformation feel more real.
Even within endless diversity and completely different worlds, it often seems that at the core there is light and darkness — the rest is detail.
Maybe this is also one of the beautiful sides of technology when it is used for good — it allows these kinds of meaningful connections to happen.
Thank you for expressing it so beautifully. :)
With love,
Let’s take a quick inventory of what we find in nature. There are mountains, oceans, deserts, grassy areas, woods, roaming herds of animals, birds, insects, monkeys, cows. And so on. Cannot list it all, but I think you can perhaps already see where my comment is going.Homo sapiens is also in the list. The bits I included differ from each other in one important way - complexity. Plants are more complex than rocks, animals more complex than plants. Some animals are more complex than others. Cows are more complex than worms, chimpanzees more complex than cows. And Homo sapiens is more complex than every other entry in the list.
Why is this so? It’s levels of consciousness. I guess lions are more conscious than worms, for example. Lions hunt in packs, so there is a social dynamic that worms do not have (apologies to them if this is not so, of course). Lions have a hunting strategy, they will ‘think’ collectively whether the energy expensed in going after a vulnerable wilderbeest separated from the herd outweighs the energy gained from the food source. I therefore guess there is an element of self-awareness in a lion that is not present in a worm. But the lion still does not have sufficient self-awareness to enable choices that may harm them. The lion is still driven by instinct. It does not transcend it.
But Homo sapiens does. Homo sapiens has developed a level of self-awareness that unlocks the question “why”. No other animal has access to this question. The lion may ask “how”, but not “why”, and the worm may not ask anything.
And it is this access to the question “why” that has elevated Homo sapiens to the top of the food chain. But now let’s look at nature again. Let’s look at nature holistically, as one unbroken piece of cloth. It may ripple in places but it does not rip. It may stretch in others but it does not tear. It is uneven but it has no holes. We are part of nature in this sense. We are connected to everything else in it and yet, the piece of fabric that we represent has been become self-aware.
And hence, it may appear to the self-aware part of nature that the very ability to make choices has led to an imbalance in the overall fabric itself. But if it is correct to say that we ARE part of nature, and that we ARE connected to other parts of it, then it would oddly follow that whatever we do to it (to ourselves) is less a restoration of balance, but an evolution to the next level.
Mark wrote: "Let’s take a quick inventory of what we find in nature. There are mountains, oceans, deserts, grassy areas, woods, roaming herds of animals, birds, insects, monkeys, cows. And so on. Cannot list it..."Hi Mark- " evolution to the next level"- totally right! :)
" Nature does nothing in vain" ( Aristotle).
" The main difference between humans and the rest of natural world is us having morals". ( Darwin and many other Ref Ref Ref).
We are unique comparing to all the other forms of life, and this way, our path is predetermined precisely by the consequences of us having morals. All the current chaos " wars-technologies used badly" etc etc is merely a stage and/or, possibly, an obstacle, but neither can alter humanity's evolutionary purpose.
Jasmine
Dr. wrote: "Dear Mr Crown and Cagla,It is so very heartening (and reassuring)! that there are people like us, from completely different parts of the planet, and different life paths too, and yet we felt and ..."
I sense common unity here my sisters.
At our core we are one.
These rectangles can serve truth when used correctly.
Feeling grateful,
Mr Crown
Dear Mr Crown,I am honoured to be your sister :))
Please consider joining us here, too:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Jasmine
Mark wrote: "Let’s take a quick inventory of what we find in nature. There are mountains, oceans, deserts, grassy areas, woods, roaming herds of animals, birds, insects, monkeys, cows. And so on. Cannot list it..."Thank you for this thoughtful perspective, Mark. I love the metaphor of nature as an unbroken fabric that has suddenly become self-aware through us.
I agree that we are part of an ongoing evolution. From a spiritual and symbolic standpoint, the human being seems to carry all those earlier stages within—the mineral, the plant, and the animal—integrating them into a new whole.
Perhaps what truly defines our 'complexity' is not just being conscious, but being aware of our consciousness. This 'meta-awareness' brings a unique weight: responsibility. If we are the part of the fabric that can ask 'why,' then we are also the part that can consciously choose how to move.
I find your point about evolution vs. restoration very striking. It suggests that what we perceive as imbalance might actually be the 'birth pains' of a new level of existence. The real question, as you hinted, is what kind of consciousness will guide our next collective step.
Cagla,Thank you for your perspective on this. I entirely agree that with consciousness comes responsibility.
I am not going to open the can of worms with the label ‘free will’ on it - well I am going to peek inside but no more. I have decided (meaning I have no idea but I had to get to an answer that is good enough for now) that from a point of view of hard physics it is difficult to see how we can have free will if ‘free’ means ‘unbound by the rules of nature’. As we cannot know what the deterministic future is going to be, we still need to make guesses, and these guesses influence our actions, and hence we cannot exonerate ourselves from responsibility for these actions no matter how much those who plead for hard determinism wish to build this freedom into their worldview.
OK - that’s the free will hurdle avoided - for now. I have had a thought similar to yours when you talk about meta-consciousness, I have asked myself what the next level of self-awareness might be. I have decided (there’s that phrase again - if we keep talking you will see I use it a lot - it basically means ‘I dont know) that it is impossible not to be aware of your own consciousness. Once you have developed a sense of ‘self’ that’s it - you now are aware of yourself, and that must surely mean you are aware that you are aware?
There is a question mark here - I can see how you may have a point, and if you do, again I agree. In that case, Homo sapiens may already have acceded to level 2. But I am still asking myself, what is the next level of consciousness? Let’s decide that Homo sapiens has consciousness and also meta-consciousness. Can we agree that meta-consciousness (or consciousness) is only ever manifest in the person who hosts it? What I mean is that I have no way of deciding whether somebody else is conscious. That is why I cannot state with confidence that animals that are not Homo sapiens are less conscious or that AI is not conscious.
So is the next level a form of shared consciousness, something that approaches a hive mind? If it was, it would need to have an evolutionary purpose. It is easy to see how there might be one, but equally easy to wonder whether such a mind would violate the very principle on which consciousness is based, indeed a principle that consciousness brings into existence in the first place - the sense of an individual self. I’ll stop here - as ever, my thoughts are more of a ‘meditation’ than a tightly reasoned treatise. Just thought I follow up on your comment. Thanks for sharing - Mark.
Mark wrote: "Cagla,Thank you for your perspective on this. I entirely agree that with consciousness comes responsibility.
I am not going to open the can of worms with the label ‘free will’ on it - well I am..."
Hi Mark,
You touched on some very deep places. This was the kind of piece that slowly makes you think.
I think the distinction you made around free will is very important. Maybe part of the disagreement here comes from the meanings people give to the words. To be “free” and to choose among the alternatives placed before us may not mean the same thing. To me, it is very hard to speak of a will that is completely outside the laws of nature, or outside any order at all. Even if a person were to move beyond ordinary physical limits, that still would not mean stepping outside order itself, but only into another layer of it — physical or metaphysical. But even that does not remove the question of choice and responsibility. Maybe free will is not about being bound by no law at all, but about how we choose within the order that already exists.
At the beginning, a person usually moves toward whatever seems to offer more pleasure, comfort, or satisfaction in that moment. The things we chase may change from one stage of life to another, but the movement of chasing pleasure often stays the same for a long time — until consciousness begins to pass a certain threshold. After that, a person starts choosing not only according to immediate satisfaction, but also according to what serves a greater whole. Still within the available alternatives, of course — but from a different center.
I also understand what you mean about meta-consciousness. Once a sense of self appears, some form of self-awareness may already come with it. What I was trying to point to was perhaps something slightly different: not only “I am aware,” but awareness beginning to observe its own patterns, impulses, and identifications. But I cannot say with certainty whether that is truly a different level, or simply a more refined form of the same one.
I think you are also right when you speak about the difference between human beings and other beings. We have no direct way of measuring consciousness in others. That limit will remain for animals, for other humans, and perhaps one day for AI as well. Still, today science does see an important development in the human brain, especially in areas related to abstract thought, impulse control, long-term planning, symbolic language, and self-observation. In a way, the old traditions’ emphasis on the human capacity for awareness also seems to point in that direction. Of course, these are still interpretations — but I don’t think they are without ground.
I don’t think evolution is finished, and I don’t think consciousness is finished either. Even within Homo sapiens there are already such wide differences in levels of consciousness. So maybe the next stage is not a collective mind in which individuality disappears, but something else: a much deeper awareness of interconnection, while the person’s own center remains intact. If the individual self is truly formed, I don’t think that would stand against the collective. It might actually bring a person into greater harmony with it.
So perhaps the next step is not simply more intelligence, but a consciousness able to carry both individuality and connection to the whole at the same time.
These are just thoughts that are with me for now. Less an answer than another meditation alongside yours. :)
Thank you again for sharing.
Dear Mark/Cagla,It is very hard for us, humans (especially men, it seems!) to NOT be conflicted about free will, and all the surrounding implications.
I wonder if we could try a different approach? Lets look what is happening in nature (forgive the anthropomorphising!)
Planets within Solar system exist for a very long time, and each moves, constantly (out if free will..?) It is subjected to gravitational influences of other planets, and Solar system as a whole. If one planet disappeared, it would definitely endanger (affect the stability, or even destroy) the entire system. Therefore , as each planet rotates, it needs to be "mindful of keeping peace with the others".
But the instinct to keep peace will not make Saturn agree to become a rocky planet, for it must stay true to its nature to maintain harmony with all the other planets.
At the other end of the scale, the most primitive forms of life ( bacteria, fungi etc) sacrifice themselves to save their colony. They do so " willingly", but is it really a free will?
So do you think it is possible that " free will" is merely an illusion? For everything that exists has only two (simultaneous, and opposite) desires: stay true to yourself and blend with the others.
And millions of little actions you take during your life are rooted in the above, whether you are aware of it or not.
" Deeper awareness of interconnection", yes, Cagla :) I think the same - this is where we are all heading.
:)
Jasmine
Dr. wrote: "Dear Mark/Cagla,It is very hard for us, humans (especially men, it seems!) to NOT be conflicted about free will, and all the surrounding implications.
I wonder if we could try a different approa..."
Dear Jasmine,
I really like this perspective.
What you said about Saturn really stayed with me — that harmony does not mean changing one’s nature, but living it in right relation to the whole.
In a way, we are living this even within ourselves all the time. We breathe without effort, the heart keeps beating outside our control, and all the cells in the body quietly do what they are meant to do. There is already an order moving through us before “choice” even enters.
So maybe free will is not absolute independence, but how consciously we move within the order we belong to.
With love,
Cagla
@ Cagla: I have indeed thought for a very long time now that the real problem with the concept of ‘free will’ is the adjective ‘free’. If we call it something else, for example ‘informed choice’, people would have much less of an issue with it. Just a short comment from me today, a bit lighthearted, not entirely serious, but I guess there is something to it - even though I say so myself…. :-)
I feel free will does not really exist. As we can only choose from the menu, but we can't choose the menu. There are only two real choices, react or respond. And even that is limited to just react for some, if they have poor vagal tone.
Knowing yourself first is key.
Mr wrote: "I feel free will does not really exist. As we can only choose from the menu, but we can't choose the menu. There are only two real choices, react or respond. And even that is limited to just reac..."
" Poor vagal tone", that must be it..! you are funny :))
Please allow me to be a little cheeky, Mr; a man might indeed think that he "knows himself"... until he meets a woman who shows him that he doesn't.
:)
Jasmine
Cagla wrote: "Dr. wrote: "Dear Mark/Cagla,It is very hard for us, humans (especially men, it seems!) to NOT be conflicted about free will, and all the surrounding implications.
I wonder if we could try a diff..."
Beautifully said, Cagla- all we can really do is to be conscious of what is happening, or not :) AND, remain open to the " messages from the universe", for they do come, just when you need them.. it happened to me every time in my life, when I had to make some important decision/take a U turn.
:)
@Jasmine: “messages from the universe”? I entirely agree with you there. I am not spiritual so I call these messages something else. I call the messages “epiphany recognition”, and it works like this - allow me to bore you with a short anecdote from my life.We are going back a few decades to a time where I was in a relationship I thought might be serious. We were both still in the ‘testing period’, but we were both convinced that it was not a passing fling. And yet, I was still unconvinced whether we would work well on a deeper level.
One day, we were off to a birthday do of one of her friends. On the way there, she stopped at a bookshop, planning to go in and get a gift for her friend. I said to her I would wait outside and see her when she gets out.
That was it. That was the moment. Innocuous, fleeting, not really a moment at all? Well, quite. Unless you know who I am. I love bookshops. I love browsing in them, living in them, feeling the vibe, the smell, moving from one section to another - now it’s European history (oh wow a book on the Medici, and here’s a five volume series on the 100-years war…. Look at that, an 8 volume series of historical fiction, set in Tudor England), then politics, non-fiction, crime, science fiction… It’s endless. I can spend an entire day in my favourite London bookshops.
And in that moment? Not only did I not feel like going in, I felt that I hated the idea of going in. What was happening?
The reason I did not want to enter an environment I loved was that I knew I would find tons of things there I would want to engage with, read, lose myself in, study, but - I would not have the time to do it. Why? Because my life had changed. My girlfriend was a socialite. I was not. Well, I enjoy meeting people but if that happens in the context of a constant string of parties where the conversations never gain more depth than the cover of books I was no longer reading - well. Then I get bored, indeed frustrated with the lack of substance, at least as perceived by me.
And so my reluctance to go into a bookshop was completely out of character for me. And - here it comes - this was the message from the universe. I had an epiphany, but I still had to know myself well enough to notice it! Needless to say, the relationship ran its course and I found my life partner later - but that is not the point of my anecdote.
The point is that one needs to be receptive to the messages of the universe. If one is not, these moments will pass unrecognised, and we are not going to get the benefit, they will be lost teaching moments. And one can ONLY be receptive is one knows oneself. So I agree entirely with Mr on that one. Self knowledge is the potential key to what the Buddhists call “nirvana”. In my non-spiritual world, these moments qualify as potential epiphanies. But they will only serve to explain anything to us if we RECOGNISE them for what they are. Otherwise all the teaching moments, messages, epiphanies, divine revelations etc will just go to waste.
Hope I didn’t bore you too much with this - turned into a longer blurb than I intended…. :-)
@ Cagla: On free will again… . I once wrote an essay to myself on this topic, trying to explain it to myself :-). In the essay, I invoked a thought experiment. Say, I get up in the morning. First choice is shall I have tea or coffee. Coffee it is. I go back to bed, trying to wake up and face the day.Now what would happen if I had a machine that allowed me to rewind the universe back to the moment where I was waking up? As it happens, I have such a machine. Here’s what happened the second time round: “I get up in the morning. First choice is shall I have tea or coffee. Coffee it is. I go back to bed, trying to wake up and face the day”.
How odd. Am I not supposed to have free will? Looks like I did not even think about this one at all. I chose coffee again. Although I theoretically could have chosen tea. My arms move freely about, I can pour hot water over tea leaves just as easily as I can pour it over coffee powder - and yet, I chose coffee again. Why?
It’s because I would not WANT to choose tea. My rewinding machine winds the universe back to its previous state, the state 10 minutes ago when I was waking up. And yes, that means EXACTLY the same state. Every elementary particle is in the same position and moves with the same momentum (this does not violate the rules of physics, Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle says we cannot measure a particle’s momentum and position with equal precision at the same time, it does not say a particle does not have a precise position and momentum at the same time). If you prefer a QM description to classical mechanics: Every quantum state is the same, the “state vector” of the universe is identical.
And if it is, then the particles that constitute me, and my brain, and the electricity that moves through my synapses, enabling my thoughts, which in turn determine my choices - are the same. So I would not choose differently. Nothing physical prevents me from choosing different - so in that sense, will is free - but the property of the system that is my “thought” emerges from its underlying constituent parts in the same way as it did before, and hence determines the same choice as it did before.
But then, the troubling conclusion from this must surely be that we do NOT have free will, that free will is indeed, as Dan Dennett puts it, an “illusion”? Or worse, that everything is pre-determined, and we are merely automatons unwinding along a pre-set path? Or worse still, that anything goes and nobody is to take responsibility for their own actions?
Not so. Consciousness and free will are intertwined, indeed, the very concept of the latter cannot exist without the former. Consciousness is what it ‘feels like’ to model our surroundings, and optimise our interactions with them. We cannot PREDICT how the universe will unroll in the next 10 minutes, 10 years, 100 years. We will therefore need to think about how to limit the range of theoretical choices open to us to just one. The act of thinking itself affects the particles that enable the thought. So in that sense, we absolutely DO have free will and it is NOT an illusion. Dan Dennett is wrong, indeed I think he diminishes the quality of active deliberation to that of a mere automatic response.
So I am back where I was in my short comment. The trouble is the adjective. Free will is better thought of as “informed choice”. The detractors of free will misinterpret what ‘free’ means and claim that it must mean “unbound by the rules of the universe”. But such an interpretation is silly - we are all bound by the rules of nature, nothing transcends it or stands outside of it. If we had a rewinding machine, the universe would unroll in exactly the same way, but the way it unrolls the “first time” in my thought experiment is affected by the choices we make. And yes, they ARE choices, even though we would make the same choices in a replay.
So, in the end, the concept of free will is exceedingly subtle. It exists because we are sufficiently conscious for it to emerge as a concept in the first place. But it exists as an actual ‘think’, rather than an ‘illusion’ because of the arrow of time, which in turn is deeply linked to the concept of entropy. If time did not have an immutable direction, free will could not exist. Given that there are beings conscious of their own self, the idea of free will follows as a principle deeply rooted in the very fabric of reality (entropy and the arrow of time).
As Mr put it succinctly: We choose FROM the menu, but we do not choose THE menu. Well. Should have led with that, shouldn’t I? Would have saved you the time to read all this. If, indeed, you chose to do this. See what I did there? :-) Regards, Mark
Mark wrote: "@ Cagla: On free will again… . I once wrote an essay to myself on this topic, trying to explain it to myself :-). In the essay, I invoked a thought experiment. Say, I get up in the morning. First c..."Mark,
Well, yes — apparently I did choose to read all that, and I’m glad I did. :)
I actually think your “menu” line says a lot in very few words. We may not choose the menu, but choosing from it is still no small thing.
What also stayed with me is that maybe not all choices come from the same level in us. Some seem more reactive — driven by impulse, comfort, fear, or immediate satisfaction. Others seem to come from a more awake place, where awareness is stronger than reaction.
So perhaps the question is not only whether will is “free,” but from where in us the choice is being made.
And yes, I agree — “informed choice” may be a much less misleading phrase than “free will.”
Thanks for taking the time to write it all out. It was worth the read.
Dr. wrote: "Cagla wrote: "Dr. wrote: "Dear Mark/Cagla,It is very hard for us, humans (especially men, it seems!) to NOT be conflicted about free will, and all the surrounding implications.
I wonder if we co..."
Jasmine, I feel the same — sometimes the real work is simply to stay awake enough to notice.
And yes, those messages always seem to come at the right moment. :))
Mark wrote: "@Jasmine: “messages from the universe”? I entirely agree with you there. I am not spiritual so I call these messages something else. I call the messages “epiphany recognition”, and it works like th..."Mark wrote: "@Jasmine: “messages from the universe”? I entirely agree with you there. I am not spiritual so I call these messages something else. I call the messages “epiphany recognition”, and it works like th..."
Mark,
A bit jokingly, maybe life has its own version of the 'double-slit experiment': some moments only take shape once we truly notice them.
And yes — I think you’re right that the message may be there, but it only becomes meaningful if we know ourselves well enough to recognize it.
Dr. wrote: "Mr wrote: "I feel free will does not really exist. As we can only choose from the menu, but we can't choose the menu. There are only two real choices, react or respond. And even that is limited t..."
Greetings,
I encourage a bit of cheek, or spice as like to call it.
I hear you, we can never truly know ourselves, regardless of man or woman. Try your best to get as close to self as possible, it's the only game worth playing. Biologically we all start off as females anyway, so it's neither her or there.lol
The goal is to balance the masculine and feminine energies within you, to gain a clearer perception of reality. Your compliment is a good mirror, with which to see what you are hiding from and cultivate balance in oneself.
Even in conversation the dialog is sustained by a balance of listening (passive inward feminine) and talking (active outward masculine)
Feel free to serve up a few scotch bonnets.
Warm regards
Mr Crown
Mark wrote: "@Jasmine: “messages from the universe”? I entirely agree with you there. I am not spiritual so I call these messages something else. I call the messages “epiphany recognition”, and it works like th..."Agreed Mark,
We don't want them to go to waste.
Embody the teachings within your experiences, and put the tools to use. Sharpen the tools on the friction of your challenges and they will be part of you.
I wish you success on your quest.
Mr Crown
Mr wrote: "Mark wrote: "@Jasmine: “messages from the universe”? I entirely agree with you there. I am not spiritual so I call these messages something else. I call the messages “epiphany recognition”, and it ...""The goal is to balance the masculine and feminine energies within you, to gain a clearer perception of reality"...
thank you for sharing this thought, Mr Crown, I've never considered things this way... and I am not sure I can fully relate; I'll explain.
Being an academic/many other hats/high achiever, there is plenty of masculine energy within me.. at the same time, my friends would describe me as sweet and feminine :)
All the best times in my life happen when I am being at my most feminine, and the worst- when masculine energies are strong. So for me personally, the goal is not to balance both energies- but to keep amping up the femininity, with no limits :))
Jasmine
I appreciate your honesty Jasmine.Balance is equal value, not equal amounts. Both sides of you are required to achieve balance.
I too love my feminine energy, how else would I receive all the beauty this life has to offer?
Mr Crown
That nature has its own way of restoring balance—and we may be approaching a critical point where the consequences of human actions can no longer be avoided.
The concept of “thresholds” in the book really stayed with me… like ripples that keep expanding until everything connects.
I’m genuinely curious to hear your thoughts—
Do you think humanity is nearing a turning point with nature and energy balance?