Mark’s review of The Darkness That Comes Before (The Prince of Nothing, #1) > Likes and Comments
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This is one of my favorite trilogies. Bakker is fantastic and I think his magic system is second to none. Enjoy!
I just bought this book yesterday but have not read it yet.
One of the darkest series of books out there. Love Bakker, not for a nice light read.
It would be Nietzschean philosophy. Nietzsche was known for the aphorism and a psychological approach to a nascent existentialism. the concept of the herd and the individual which is continously in play in Bakker's work is A Nietzschean understanding of the world as will to power.
Nietzsche may have been known for aphorisms but aphorisms aren't philosophy and the books I've read of his aren't a string of them, rather they're an expounding on the ideas that are condensed into aphorism on occasion but meaningless in that form without context. The concepts of herd and individual (present in many books) are quite likely an homage to Neitzsche, but as themes in a work of fiction they are like (but less than) the illustrations of say Satre's philosophy given in Nausea or Iron in the Soul, rather than actual philosophy expounded in full. There's no way I would consider this 'dense philosophy' (as noted in the review) - that's not to say it has no philosophical value, but so do the themes in many books that make less open claim to such.
I might add that there is a distinction between the German aphorism (which is closer to a short essay) that Nietzsche wrote in (in addition to the pithy and sometimes quite misogynistic aphorisms) and the French aphorism that La Rochefoucauld employed so wonderfully.
Philosophy certainly can be done in aphorisms, and one of the virtues of philosophic writings is how many different forms they take! :)
First book, while still very good, was definitely the weakest of the original trilogy. The second and third books showcase significant improvements.
Very informative review. I had to laugh, though. " the much talked of darkness of the book didn't strike me as particularly dark at all." From the author of the superb but pitch black Prince of Thorns series.
Come on if it does not contain caveman type, "Ug me kill thought," it's philosophy, right?
Thanks very much for this review. If authoring doesn't work out for you (I hear you are on something of a meteoric rise), you have a fruitful fallback as a reviewer.
Have you continued reading the series since Oct?
Mike wrote: "Thanks very much for this review. If authoring doesn't work out for you (I hear you are on something of a meteoric rise), you have a fruitful fallback as a reviewer.
Have you continued reading the..."
I don't find reviewing pays very well :)
& no, I would certainly give the next book a try but there's just so much I get sent to read and so little time to read it in...
Mark wrote: "I don't find reviewing pays very well :)
& no, I would certainly give the next book a try but there's just so much I get sent to read and so little time to read it in..."
I really hope you find time to read The Warrior-Prophet. It is probably the second strongest book in the whole saga, so far, next to the most recent entree, The White-Luck Warrior.
Been putting this one off for ages, with luck maybe this review will push me over the edge and get me to actually open the book.
The rape aliens don't show up until the second book IIRC.
i loved this series but its true the latter novels get even better
It gets better with Warrior-Prophet. I love Bakker, but I find that I have to be in a certain sombre mood to read his books.
I just deleted my initial comment which was harsher than necessary. I did not care for the writing style. I found it bloated and imprecise. To paraphrase Inigo Montoya - I don't think his words mean what he thinks they mean.
Your review has tipped me over to dumping my current book and rereading this series. I absolutely love these books, but I understand what you mean about a little emotionally shallow.
But you simply have to read the rest of the series, if only for a later scene where Achamain let's loose. One of the most awesome fantasy magic scenes I've ever read.
Khellus is meant to be shallow and unapproachable. It defines him. So much of the first book is devoted to the creation of khellus, and the world.
Later books build on the tortured Akka, abused Esement, and Cnaiur (one of my favourites), as well as a host of other characters that are only outlined in the first book.
In general, I think most people talk about the philosophically denseness of the book being derived from the magic systems and the implications of magic within that universe, or it was for me.
Khellus is a utilitarian. He might also be an existentialist. In line with Sarte, I don't know. He seems more like Kierkegaard without the leap of faith and not at all like Nietzsche, imo. And if Khellus is, I can't see how, or the why of it. And that's why he's mad, imo.
Akka is a kind of Wittgenstein, and imo, more complex of the two. And much of the dense philosophy isn't so much in the Khellus portions as it is in stuff about the mandate, akka and seswatha. As for the rest, i am not sure.
Esement is a madonna/whore. Cnauir is savage, mad and brutal and reminds me a lot of Logan Nine-Fingers.
And the darkness of the books only increases as more and more of the Consult is revealed along with Khellus.
It's a very strong series. But I would say, in general, I like the Aspect Emperor series more at this point. That said, I must come clean and say Bakker is my favourite fantasy writer at this moment. Followed closely by yourself and Ambercrombie.
Why does this review make me want to reread the book again? This book is the weakest of the series, Mark. Do try the next one. It starts getting properly dark from the second one..
Hope you finish the series. Among the best for me, along with Abercrombie's First Law and Bernard Cornwell's Warlord Trilogy plus your own Prince of Thorns, oh yeah Paul Hoffman's Left Hand of God was epic too. Are you a fan of George McDonald Fraser? Or more pacifically Flashman.... really hope so
Wes wrote: "Hope you finish the series. Among the best for me, along with Abercrombie's First Law and Bernard Cornwell's Warlord Trilogy plus your own Prince of Thorns, oh yeah Paul Hoffman's Left Hand of God ..."
Yes, I really enjoyed the Flashman books. Jalan in Prince of Fools is inspired by Flashman.
Prince of Nothing :) For a second thought you were releasing a new book :D
Thanks for the review Mark!
Your review of The gunslinger inspired me to re-read the series (which of course requires reading the series twice for me every time, haha)
I'm in between books at the moment while I wait for certain books to be published
Don't know why it cut off my post...
Any advice for a next series? Looking for something more akin to Name of the wind - Prince of thorns - or Ravens Shadow.
Thanks!
Don't know why it cut off my post...
Any advice for a next series? Looking for something more akin to Name of the wind - Prince of thorns - or Ravens Shadow.
Thanks!
Dennis wrote: "Don't know why it cut off my post...
Any advice for a next series? Looking for something more akin to Name of the wind - Prince of thorns - or Ravens Shadow.
Thanks!"
The Red Queen's War of course! And in April, the Book of the Ancestor :)
This review has made me want to read the book, more so than I already did. It's sitting in one of my various to-be-read piles but I think I'll be reading it sooner than planned. Thanks.
Harold wrote: "This review has made me want to read the book, more so than I already did. It's sitting in one of my various to-be-read piles but I think I'll be reading it sooner than planned. Thanks."
Re-reads are a big compliment to any book/author!
You summed up my thoughts much better than I could have. I suppose that's why you're the author and I'm the reader.
Probably one of my top three fantasy series, with the Broken Empire, and First Law. This is the weakest entry, and I still really dug it. It gets better, especially the big battle scenes. Baker creates an arms race of shock value that he tops each book. It fits the story and works, but sometimes it leaves you feeling mindraped.
I want to read this series but from everything I've heard it gets very convoluted and verbose as it progresses. To the point where reviewers who I trust have said they tapped out because they couldn't take it nor could they understand what was going on with the story any longer.
I've always interpreted the "Darkness that comes before" as the ignorance before the arrival of Kellhus.
Mark wrote: "Wes wrote: "Hope you finish the series. Among the best for me, along with Abercrombie's First Law and Bernard Cornwell's Warlord Trilogy plus your own Prince of Thorns, oh yeah Paul Hoffman's Left ..."
of course he is haha, that comment was before i read the books.. Great character- Jalan and Harry
Bakker is an outright GENIUS.. I'm left amazed by his writing
I really liked the whole trilogy, and felt a lot of the rancor towards Bakker stemmed from people conflating the views of the characters in the books with Bakkers, specifically the “women have no soul”-belief - when that’s a view held and spread by the very clearly evil religious nutters in the book. Bakker responded less than well, and the poor guy got crucified.
Anyway, now I realized I haven’t read the second trilogy he wrote. Next on the list! Then Red Sister!
(I’m saving Red Sister until we’re closer to the third book being published).
It was the women characters that held off my five star rating. I enjoyed the two main woman character, but it might have helped if one of the magical schools were comprised of women. It a "Dude's Story" which is fine, but it felt more like it was written in 1980 then 2000s
Nice review. The series (both), in my opinion, get very dark later on. I suspect some reviews of this particular book were colored by the later works. Still, for someone who read The Wheel of Time and is looking for something new, the warnings about denseness and darkness might be relatively important. I didn't finish the series all that long ago, but may need to jump back in. Thanks for reigniting my interest.
Im currently reading this and your review sums it up nicely for me, too many characters with too long names had me confused at times! but Achamian and Esmenet are the two I have at least felt some empathy with
Stephen Richter,
Please no! Give it century of 2 before that.
I am still traumatized by the Aes Sedai, like many are. To the point that I was fantasizing about the Forsaken just exterminating them.
Michael wrote: "Did you also read Sartre?"
Wow, a typo.
Marc wrote: "Been putting this one off for ages, with luck maybe this review will push me over the edge and get me to actually open the book."
& 8 years later ... it doesn't seem to have :D
My favourite fantasy series!... Yes, it gets way darker with the 2nd book and onwards, but that same cruelty is used to make arguments and point out to problematic parts of the human psyche... I do hope you finish the series! Even if not for everyone, I feel like it is one of the greatest series that opens a new direction that fantasy can take, alongside Malazan, in this case!
Diego wrote: "My favourite fantasy series!... Yes, it gets way darker with the 2nd book and onwards, but that same cruelty is used to make arguments and point out to problematic parts of the human psyche... I do..."
Ah, well Malazan left me fairly meh, so perhaps I'm better off leaving it with this one.
It is a different direction, I'd certainly recommend you to read the 2nd book before deciding, if you can!...
You sell yourself short if you think this author is like you.
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Michael
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Aug 16, 2012 07:32AM
This is one of my favorite trilogies. Bakker is fantastic and I think his magic system is second to none. Enjoy!
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I just bought this book yesterday but have not read it yet.
One of the darkest series of books out there. Love Bakker, not for a nice light read.
It would be Nietzschean philosophy. Nietzsche was known for the aphorism and a psychological approach to a nascent existentialism. the concept of the herd and the individual which is continously in play in Bakker's work is A Nietzschean understanding of the world as will to power.
Nietzsche may have been known for aphorisms but aphorisms aren't philosophy and the books I've read of his aren't a string of them, rather they're an expounding on the ideas that are condensed into aphorism on occasion but meaningless in that form without context. The concepts of herd and individual (present in many books) are quite likely an homage to Neitzsche, but as themes in a work of fiction they are like (but less than) the illustrations of say Satre's philosophy given in Nausea or Iron in the Soul, rather than actual philosophy expounded in full. There's no way I would consider this 'dense philosophy' (as noted in the review) - that's not to say it has no philosophical value, but so do the themes in many books that make less open claim to such.
I might add that there is a distinction between the German aphorism (which is closer to a short essay) that Nietzsche wrote in (in addition to the pithy and sometimes quite misogynistic aphorisms) and the French aphorism that La Rochefoucauld employed so wonderfully.Philosophy certainly can be done in aphorisms, and one of the virtues of philosophic writings is how many different forms they take! :)
First book, while still very good, was definitely the weakest of the original trilogy. The second and third books showcase significant improvements.
Very informative review. I had to laugh, though. " the much talked of darkness of the book didn't strike me as particularly dark at all." From the author of the superb but pitch black Prince of Thorns series.
Come on if it does not contain caveman type, "Ug me kill thought," it's philosophy, right?
Thanks very much for this review. If authoring doesn't work out for you (I hear you are on something of a meteoric rise), you have a fruitful fallback as a reviewer.Have you continued reading the series since Oct?
Mike wrote: "Thanks very much for this review. If authoring doesn't work out for you (I hear you are on something of a meteoric rise), you have a fruitful fallback as a reviewer.Have you continued reading the..."
I don't find reviewing pays very well :)
& no, I would certainly give the next book a try but there's just so much I get sent to read and so little time to read it in...
Mark wrote: "I don't find reviewing pays very well :)& no, I would certainly give the next book a try but there's just so much I get sent to read and so little time to read it in..."
I really hope you find time to read The Warrior-Prophet. It is probably the second strongest book in the whole saga, so far, next to the most recent entree, The White-Luck Warrior.
Been putting this one off for ages, with luck maybe this review will push me over the edge and get me to actually open the book.
"...the much talked of darkness of the book didn't strike me as particularly dark at all."
The rape aliens don't show up until the second book IIRC.
i loved this series but its true the latter novels get even better
It gets better with Warrior-Prophet. I love Bakker, but I find that I have to be in a certain sombre mood to read his books.
I just deleted my initial comment which was harsher than necessary. I did not care for the writing style. I found it bloated and imprecise. To paraphrase Inigo Montoya - I don't think his words mean what he thinks they mean.
Your review has tipped me over to dumping my current book and rereading this series. I absolutely love these books, but I understand what you mean about a little emotionally shallow. But you simply have to read the rest of the series, if only for a later scene where Achamain let's loose. One of the most awesome fantasy magic scenes I've ever read.
Khellus is meant to be shallow and unapproachable. It defines him. So much of the first book is devoted to the creation of khellus, and the world. Later books build on the tortured Akka, abused Esement, and Cnaiur (one of my favourites), as well as a host of other characters that are only outlined in the first book.
In general, I think most people talk about the philosophically denseness of the book being derived from the magic systems and the implications of magic within that universe, or it was for me.
Khellus is a utilitarian. He might also be an existentialist. In line with Sarte, I don't know. He seems more like Kierkegaard without the leap of faith and not at all like Nietzsche, imo. And if Khellus is, I can't see how, or the why of it. And that's why he's mad, imo.
Akka is a kind of Wittgenstein, and imo, more complex of the two. And much of the dense philosophy isn't so much in the Khellus portions as it is in stuff about the mandate, akka and seswatha. As for the rest, i am not sure.
Esement is a madonna/whore. Cnauir is savage, mad and brutal and reminds me a lot of Logan Nine-Fingers.
And the darkness of the books only increases as more and more of the Consult is revealed along with Khellus.
It's a very strong series. But I would say, in general, I like the Aspect Emperor series more at this point. That said, I must come clean and say Bakker is my favourite fantasy writer at this moment. Followed closely by yourself and Ambercrombie.
Why does this review make me want to reread the book again? This book is the weakest of the series, Mark. Do try the next one. It starts getting properly dark from the second one..
Hope you finish the series. Among the best for me, along with Abercrombie's First Law and Bernard Cornwell's Warlord Trilogy plus your own Prince of Thorns, oh yeah Paul Hoffman's Left Hand of God was epic too. Are you a fan of George McDonald Fraser? Or more pacifically Flashman.... really hope so
Wes wrote: "Hope you finish the series. Among the best for me, along with Abercrombie's First Law and Bernard Cornwell's Warlord Trilogy plus your own Prince of Thorns, oh yeah Paul Hoffman's Left Hand of God ..."Yes, I really enjoyed the Flashman books. Jalan in Prince of Fools is inspired by Flashman.
Prince of Nothing :) For a second thought you were releasing a new book :D
Thanks for the review Mark!Your review of The gunslinger inspired me to re-read the series (which of course requires reading the series twice for me every time, haha)
I'm in between books at the moment while I wait for certain books to be published
Don't know why it cut off my post...Any advice for a next series? Looking for something more akin to Name of the wind - Prince of thorns - or Ravens Shadow.
Thanks!
Don't know why it cut off my post...Any advice for a next series? Looking for something more akin to Name of the wind - Prince of thorns - or Ravens Shadow.
Thanks!
Dennis wrote: "Don't know why it cut off my post...Any advice for a next series? Looking for something more akin to Name of the wind - Prince of thorns - or Ravens Shadow.
Thanks!"
The Red Queen's War of course! And in April, the Book of the Ancestor :)
This review has made me want to read the book, more so than I already did. It's sitting in one of my various to-be-read piles but I think I'll be reading it sooner than planned. Thanks.
Harold wrote: "This review has made me want to read the book, more so than I already did. It's sitting in one of my various to-be-read piles but I think I'll be reading it sooner than planned. Thanks."Re-reads are a big compliment to any book/author!
You summed up my thoughts much better than I could have. I suppose that's why you're the author and I'm the reader.
Probably one of my top three fantasy series, with the Broken Empire, and First Law. This is the weakest entry, and I still really dug it. It gets better, especially the big battle scenes. Baker creates an arms race of shock value that he tops each book. It fits the story and works, but sometimes it leaves you feeling mindraped.
I want to read this series but from everything I've heard it gets very convoluted and verbose as it progresses. To the point where reviewers who I trust have said they tapped out because they couldn't take it nor could they understand what was going on with the story any longer.
I've always interpreted the "Darkness that comes before" as the ignorance before the arrival of Kellhus.
Mark wrote: "Wes wrote: "Hope you finish the series. Among the best for me, along with Abercrombie's First Law and Bernard Cornwell's Warlord Trilogy plus your own Prince of Thorns, oh yeah Paul Hoffman's Left ..."of course he is haha, that comment was before i read the books.. Great character- Jalan and Harry
Bakker is an outright GENIUS.. I'm left amazed by his writing
I really liked the whole trilogy, and felt a lot of the rancor towards Bakker stemmed from people conflating the views of the characters in the books with Bakkers, specifically the “women have no soul”-belief - when that’s a view held and spread by the very clearly evil religious nutters in the book. Bakker responded less than well, and the poor guy got crucified. Anyway, now I realized I haven’t read the second trilogy he wrote. Next on the list! Then Red Sister!
(I’m saving Red Sister until we’re closer to the third book being published).
It was the women characters that held off my five star rating. I enjoyed the two main woman character, but it might have helped if one of the magical schools were comprised of women. It a "Dude's Story" which is fine, but it felt more like it was written in 1980 then 2000s
Nice review. The series (both), in my opinion, get very dark later on. I suspect some reviews of this particular book were colored by the later works. Still, for someone who read The Wheel of Time and is looking for something new, the warnings about denseness and darkness might be relatively important. I didn't finish the series all that long ago, but may need to jump back in. Thanks for reigniting my interest.
Im currently reading this and your review sums it up nicely for me, too many characters with too long names had me confused at times! but Achamian and Esmenet are the two I have at least felt some empathy with
Stephen Richter,Please no! Give it century of 2 before that.
I am still traumatized by the Aes Sedai, like many are. To the point that I was fantasizing about the Forsaken just exterminating them.
Michael wrote: "Did you also read Sartre?"Wow, a typo.
Marc wrote: "Been putting this one off for ages, with luck maybe this review will push me over the edge and get me to actually open the book."& 8 years later ... it doesn't seem to have :D
My favourite fantasy series!... Yes, it gets way darker with the 2nd book and onwards, but that same cruelty is used to make arguments and point out to problematic parts of the human psyche... I do hope you finish the series! Even if not for everyone, I feel like it is one of the greatest series that opens a new direction that fantasy can take, alongside Malazan, in this case!
Diego wrote: "My favourite fantasy series!... Yes, it gets way darker with the 2nd book and onwards, but that same cruelty is used to make arguments and point out to problematic parts of the human psyche... I do..."Ah, well Malazan left me fairly meh, so perhaps I'm better off leaving it with this one.
It is a different direction, I'd certainly recommend you to read the 2nd book before deciding, if you can!...
You sell yourself short if you think this author is like you.
