Ward & Burns - The American Revolution: an Intimate History > Likes and Comments
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Sounds great, Larry. The Preface seems more like a chapter in and of itself, so I think it is good we devote a week to it.
As a start, I did watch all six episodes of AR. I am glad, and it was a learning experience for me, that the Iroquois Confederacy was discussed. I was not familiar with it. My own, more direct experience with Native people was the Lenni Lenape of New Jersey. They lived for centuries along the Delaware River.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenape
I knew of the Iroquois Confederacy but not very much. we will see that just as the Revolution turned father against son, and sibling against sibling, it aslo turned tribe against tribe. Of the six tribes in the Iroquois Confederacy, the Mohawks, Onondaga, Cayuga, and Seneca joined the British side while the Oneida and the Tuscorora cast their lot with the American colonists.
The Mohawks in particular were very strongly pro British. By the time of the Revolution there were only about 400 of them and they lived mainly in the east of the tribal lands surrounded by about 40,000 New Yorkers in Albany and Tryon Counties. They therefore had great reason to fear the expansion of the Americans and thought they would be better treated by the British. They also had other important links- the British Commissioner for the Crown was originally William Johnson who was married to Konwatsiatsiaienni (Molly), whose brother was Thayendaneagea (Joseph Brant) who later became an important Mohawk leader and even visited King George.
The Preface: Burns sketches out the making of the series and says that 'The American Revolution is our epic song, our epic verse, giving us the opportunity to ask ourselves questions central to the creation of the United States.' He talks about the real star of the series being the American landscape and although without a doubt it is extremely vast and beautiful it surprised me that he did not think that the real stars of the series were the American people- both Loyalists and Patriots.
Interesting details from the very first paragraphs- Franklin's cartoon depicting a snake cut into pieces as though each part was a colony with the slogan 'Join or die.' It reminded me of the French revolutionary slogan 'Live free or die;' I wondered about the origin and find that in 1685 a French book depicted a snake cut in two with the slogan 'se rejoindre ou mourir, (Join or die).
As someone who lived most of his life in New Jersey, I was fortunate enough to know and visit many sites:Morristown winter encampment.
Princeton Battlefield.
Trenton Barracks.
Monmouth Battlefield.
Thomas Paine lived in my old town of Bordentown, where we have a statue of him. There were some old buildings in my area, including a Quaker church, that have still have damage from cannonballs.
To my south, was the Batsto Furnace, which made a lot of cannons. And up where I grew up was Ringwood Manor, where a large chain was made in an effort to use it to block British ships on nearby rivers.
When did Thomas Paine live there, John? Was it after the war or during it? He died in poverty I think and only had a couple of mourners at his funeral. (He was not religious which probably alienated Americans). Joseph Bonaparte, one of Napoleon's brothers, (king of Spain) also lived in Bordenton after the fall of Napoleon.
What is Monmouth Battlefield like today, John? What was your impression of it? The day of the battle was extremely hot and men were collapsing from the heat rather than from the artillery fire. I have the impression it was very sandy.
The chains on the rivers were very effective. There was an enormous one at West Point on the Hudson(known in the revolutionary era as the North River) and also another on the Delaware.
Carol, here is a link about Thomas Paine and Bordentown. I used to see that monument often. It is right up against the river.https://revolutionarynj.org/sites/tho...
Monmouth Battlefield was the most non-descript battlefield I have even been to. There is a visitor’s center operated by the State of New Jersey, and all around it is just gently rolling, mostly flat, land. Orchards, fields, some woods. You’d never think of it as anything more than lush farmland.
I do love these two quotes from two women, the first largely unknown and the second quite famoues:"The American Revolution was many things, both horrific and sublime. And what it meant depended on the experiences of the individual. “What charms one-half of the people,” the Philadelphia Loyalist Anna Rawle noted in her diary, “generally distresses the rest.”
His wife Abigail [Adams] cautioned after the war that “however great the Blessings to be derived from a Revolution in government, the Scenes of Anarchy cruelty and Blood which usually preceed it and the difficulty of uniting a Majority in favour of any System, are sufficent to make every person who has been an Eye witness…Recoil at the prospect of over turning Empires and kingdoms.”
Carol wrote: "The chains on the rivers were very effective. There was an enormous one at West Point on the Hudson(known in the revolutionary era as the North River) and also another on the Delaware."Those chains have long fascinated me. I have wondered for decades how they were forged and linked and then moved to their location.
Carol wrote: "The Mohawks in particular were very strongly pro British. By the time of the Revolution there were only about 400 of them and they lived mainly in the east of the tribal lands surrounded by about 4..."The Iroquois, including the Mohawks, have rebounded greatly in numbers. There are now more than 80,000 enrolled [tribal members] Iroquois in the United States ... and more than 40,000 in Canada.
Normally, I don;t care that much about the sources used to produce a work. But this amazes me:"In the end, we filmed for 168 days at 169 locations; we conducted 28 interviews and recorded over 700 archival voices. Our soundtrack draws from more 700 music selections; we conducted 17 music sessions over the several years of production and drew on the talents of many composers, musicians, and artists. We logged into our system more than 18,000 still images from which we could select for inclusion in the film; we accessed almost 1,400 archival documents and almost 1,900 maps, from which we created more than 100 original maps of our own. The visual material came from 340 sources—museums, archives, and libraries—from around the world."
I often wonder how large a staff Burns has. Those are a huge number of sources to research.
I met with three others at our church yesterday to plan how we would have six Sunday school classes on the American Revolution books We will encourage the participants (youth and adults) to watch the episodes before we discuss the separate chapters. I have the pleasure of facilitating this class with a retired U.S. Ambassador.Additionally I might mention the following:
Our church ( Burke Presbyterian Church) has joined together with 13 other faith organizations to found FAITH 250. It’s dedicated to planning how we will celebrate our nation’s 250 birthday … and that doesn’t include a MMA match at the White House. Consider joining FAITH 250 (no contribution is necessary). Link is here:
https://www.faith250.org/?utm_source=...
John wrote: "Carol, here is a link about Thomas Paine and Bordentown. I used to see that monument often. It is right up against the river.https://revolutionarynj.org/sites/tho...
Monmouth Bat..."
It is an interesting monument- Paine looks active and is also holding a book, I think. An intellectual man whose revolutionary writing made him prominent in both France ( He was elected a deputy for the Pas de Calais region for the Legislative Assembly although he spoke no French) and the US. He is present at so many important historical moments.
Larry wrote: "I met with three others at our church yesterday to plan how we would have six Sunday school classes on the American Revolution books We will encourage the participants (youth and adults) to watch t..."That is a lovely idea, Larry. I wasn't sure if I could join as I am nowhere near the US and would probably be no help.
Carol, I really didn’t expect you or John to join this … I just wanted to let you know what I was involved with.
From what I have read, Bordentown is the only place in this country where Thomas Paine owned a home. It is a great historic town and I do miss it. I lived there for 24 years. There was much there involving the Revolution from a peripheral standpoint to Trenton — homes of military officers and doctors and lawyers. Nice old pubs and eateries and a dock on the Delaware. Clara Barton also lived there.
Commentary on the Preface and also with some insight after watching the entire series: it was far more of a bloody fight than what, I think, most people realize.I also marvel about strategy and tactics, given communication was done by horse, etc. For myself, trying to go from the instanteous era of today to what existed back then is more difficult than I imagined.
Larry wrote: "Carol, I really didn’t expect you or John to join this … I just wanted to let you know what I was involved with."Looking forward to hearing about it.
Larry wrote: "I do love these two quotes from two women, the first largely unknown and the second quite famoues:"The American Revolution was many things, both horrific and sublime. And what it meant depended o..."
Although it was a war for independence at the same time I think it must also be seen as a civil war as these two quotes suggest.
Carol wrote: "Larry wrote: "I do love these two quotes from two women, the first largely unknown and the second quite famoues:Although it was a war for independence at the same time I think it must also be seen as a civil war as these two quotes suggest.
..."
Although it is so obvious that it was a civil war, I am not sure that I ever thought of it as such until the point was made here in the video series/book.
One more personal recollection. When my old agency was redoing Route 29 in Trenton, we had to do a lot of archeological work. We found it odd that the charred remains of very old homes that we dug up (the foundations) did not match up well in terms of the timeline.We concluded that the first burning of homes in Trenton were done by the British to the homes of patriot sympathizers.
The second, and later burnings, we concluded were done under orders from George Washington to the homes of loyalist sympathizers. There was some documentation elsewhere that corroborated this.
It was quite amazing what was found in Trenton.
It is so sad to hear of that, John. Ordinary people's lives destroyed by soldiers. People so often had to flee when the tide of war turned against them.
I thought Chapter One was an excellent overview. Some of my commentary may blend with what I saw in the series, but I would say that having background on the Native peoples, plus the French and Indian War, is necessary to understand later developments and the personnel involved.
I am halfway through chapter 1 … but I am reading as I wait for my car to be serviced at the dealer and may get through the rest of the chapter before my car is ready.
Yes, I am also on chapter 1. Is it the same as in the series or does it differ?
One interesting part of Chapter One was Samuel Adams — dubbed the Machiavelli of chaos. I did not know much about him, but he was a relentless pamphleteer. He as much as anyone opened the pathway for change.
An excellent account of the events leading up to the Revolutionary war. I would have liked to have read more about Washington in these early days. It is interesting that he is already so prominent, mistakes or not. War is not an exact science and I always think it is easy from our arm chairs to pontificate about what people in the heat of fighting should or should not have done. The author does not mention that in the fighting when Braddock was fatally injured Washington had been suffering from diarrhea for the past few days and had had to be brought along in a wagon. Even weak and hardly able to stay on his horse he had exhibited his usual courage and when Braddock died he made sure that he was buried in a grave which was trundled over by wagons repeatedly so that no one knew where he was buried as otherwise he would have been dug up and scalped. Washington also had a very strong interest in land which the British were not allowing Americans to settle. He also had a strong sense of grievance against the British for his failed efforts to have a commission in the British army. There were many important leaders of the revolution but Washington stands pre eminent in my opinion and the British very much made a mistake when dealing with him.
A tidbit. Ebenezer Locke was one of the mInutemen at Lexington and when I visited Williamsburg and Yorktown, Bill and Maureen Poole very kindly drove me there and back over several days and also drove me round the battlefield. Bill Poole used to be a re-enactor and his great grandfather 6 times removed was Ebenezer Locke. The men there were very brave and their opposition to the British suggests their strong depth of feeling.
When I look out my window in my apartment, I see an intersection with a traffic light on Braddock Road, that same road that Gen. Braddock left his forces down to Ft. Duquesne. In those days, it was called Mountain Road, because when you get about 8 miles down the road from Fairfax, you can see the mountains in the distance. I’ll share an early map with you both of Fairfax County in 1760 when I get back home. One thing that Washington learned from his service with Gen. Braddock was that British regulars could be beaten on the battlefield.
According to dispatches received by the Duke of Gloucester, brother to King George 111, people 25 miles away already knew of the British coming when their soldiers were actually still unloading their boats at Cambridge. After the firing at Lexington the regulars carried on to Concord. The Americans had fled some way from from the other side of North Bridge but their numbers steadily increased as news quickly spread through the countryside. The regulars marched back down to the bridge and the British were given the desperate order by Major Buttrick "Fire, fellow soldiers! For God's sake, fire!" Two Americans were killed. Two British were subsequently killed and the regulars marched back to Boston attacked by the Americans firing from behind walls, hedges etc. It nearly became a rout but the British officers stood in front of their men with drawn swords and threatened to kill all who tried to flee. Then, as the authors say, Sir Hugh Percy's troops finally arrived from Boston and saved them.Lexington and Concord were of fundamental importance as Sparks says in The Writings of George Washington, 5: Appendix, no.1, 445, it showed the Americans for the first time that they can attack and perhaps beat the British. Strong measures were then adopted by the British government to crush the rebellion.
A similar point was made many years earlier when the authors say that Washington learned two important lessons when fighting with the British- that regulars were not invincible and that there was no shame in retreating if you could live to fight another day.
The new king, George 111, spoke English unlike his George predecessors! I seem to remember Lucy Worsley saying in one of her TV series that 14 Catholics were passed over before the throne was offered to the protestant George 1.
The authors say that 'the average British householder paid 26 shillings a year in taxes; the average New Englander paid just one shilling directly to the crown.' Also the British had been busy fighting the French and Indian War (the 7 Years War in Europe). It is not difficult to understand the British point of view from a purely financial aspect but they failed to take into account a people's wish for freedom apart from other considerations which again involved land or money.
British people were also divided about the revolution as were Americans. The Duke of Gloucester I mentioned above had been sent to Europe partly because of his pro-insurgent views (and also partly because he had married someone the king considered unsuitable!). Many aristocrats had land both in Britain and in America and many people's families had been torn apart by emigration so allegiances were often strong on both sides within the two countries.
Larry wrote: "When I look out my window in my apartment, I see an intersection with a traffic light on Braddock Road, that same road that Gen. Braddock left his forces down to Ft. Duquesne. In those days, it was..."It will be interesting to see the map, Larry. It is lovely to be able to look out of your window and to be so linked to such an important campaign.
An entertaining and interesting book written completely from the British point of view is that of Fusiliers by Mark Urban.
It follows the Royal Welch Fusiliers (the Light Bobs) through the war.
Another interesting book is that of the diary of Johann Dohla, a Hessian private in the Anspach-Bayreuth regiment who has an eye for detail. The Hessian soldiers were called mercenaries but they were just paid their usual wage- it was their ruler who was paid by the British. I believe there was at least one mutiny, if not two, before they set sail for America. The soldiers had not wanted to go. I recently saw on one of the historical groups on FB a shocking letter sent by their ruler who bemoaned the fact that he was not paid if a soldier was injured but only if he died and so he seemed to prefer the latter. There were often problems with the German troops in the US particularly in places like Philadelphia which had a large German population who shouted at the men and wanted to know why they were causing trouble in America. They also became enamoured of German ladies and so wanted to stay with them and not go off and fight. When the British left Philadelphia many of the German troops were taken off by ship as otherwise there would probably have been mass desertions.
Wars are generally brutal and bloody and we can see from chapter one that this one is shaping up to be just exactly that.
Carol wrote: "Larry wrote: "When I look out my window in my apartment, I see an intersection with a traffic light on Braddock Road, that same road that Gen. Braddock left his forces down to Ft. Duquesne. In thos..."Carol,
I need your address to send the map. Send your address to larry.deaton@gmail.com
Definitely some great books about the Revolutionary War.David McCullough’s 1776 is probably my favorite. Highly readable and thoroughly enjoyable.
I finished Chapter One. I clearly came away with a good impression of Abigail Adams. Quite an intellectual force.I think the book is good, but I also think the way it is set up, which tries to mirror the visual production, is a tough thing to do. Burns’ art is stronger in the visual production that brings spoken words to life — and sounds, too, though I found AR not much with music as his other productions.
It hadn't occurred to me it has music, although of course it does. Music can make such a difference. I have been watching different versions of HMS PInafore and The Pirates of Penzance and it is surprising how much they can vary. (The captain in The Pirates of Penzance looks exactly like Johnny Depp in Pirates of the Caribbean and I wondered which came first and when I looked it up saw to my surprise that it is Johnny Depp- he based his character on Keith Richards of The Rolling Stones and a character from Loony Tunes!).
I loved the music for Lewis & Clark, which I must say remains my favorite of Burns.
It seems like a leisurely read for us, which is nice. I plan to start Chapter Two this week.Separately, I came across an article a few days ago about the Battle of Cowpens. It is one of the most interesting battles of the war. Here is the Wikipedia link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...
Carol, John, and Larry will discuss the book, covering a chapter a week. We will start the discussion with the Preface. Others are welcome to join us here.