Pride and Prejudice - Week 6 > Likes and Comments
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I have a feeling I mentioned somewhere that the scene with Lady Catherine and Elizabeth is paralleled later by a scene in Little Women with Meg and Aunt March. Once the young women are forbidden to marry the man they aren't 100% sure they want to marry, they vigorously defend their attachment.Neither Lydia nor Mrs. Bennet learned anything during the book. They both think the marriage with Wickham was a happy ending.
This novel was a delight. I now realize why so many pseudo-regency novels have been written in modern times, and why romance novels in general tend to follow a formula of the heroine and eventual hero not getting along until the end, where love blooms (none of these live up to Austen's talent, in my opinion). I do love a happy ending, so I was delighted that Elizabeth and Darcy eventually resolved their differences and that Jane and Bingley also reconciled. As for the greatest changes in characters, I think Elizabeth and Darcy both came to realize the extent of their faults and that at the end both were striving to put aside both their prideful acts and the prejudices which made them so quickly jump to conclusions about other people. The least changed were Lydia, Mrs. Bennet, Lady Catherine, and Mr. Collins, all of whom were so obnoxious I wanted to slap them.
In some cases there are closer similarities, a nod to the alert reader. In Jane Aiken Hodge’s novel The Adventurers, set in the aftermath of Napoleon’s retreat from Russia, one of the heroines gets a chance to play Elizabeth to Lady Catherine: part of the joke being that the obnoxious older lady deplores the reading of novels, and has no idea what hit her. Of course, in Hodge’s story the heroine also has blackmail material with which to threaten her imperious tormentor.
Nancy wrote: "The least changed were Lydia, Mrs. Bennet, Lady Catherine, and Mr. Collins..."I would also add Wickham to the group. I think he took the clinging Lydia with him as a distraction, but would probably have cast her away. Now all his debts are settled and he is married, he has no choice as to play along, but I do not think that he all of sudden changed his character. It is even mentioned in the end that they lived beyond their means and needed financial help from the now richer sisters(-in-law).
Gem wrote: "4) How does Lady Catherine’s opposition ironically contribute to Elizabeth and Darcy’s union?"That part I had forgotten about before this re-read. It is funny that she more or less storms to Darcy to discuss the impertinence of Elizabeth not wanting to deny him. As he later describes himself, this made him believe that there was some hope left she might have changed her mind.
However, maybe they would have met again anyway due to Bingley getting closer to Jane and Darcy possibly visiting them, but at least Lady Catherine sped up the process.
Gem wrote: "How does Mr. Bennet respond to Elizabeth’s engagement differently than he responds to Lydia’s marriage?"
Mr Bennet is in the end a little confusing in my opinion. First he is mad at Lydia and Wickham and does not want to let them into the house, which is understandable considering those days when elopement was really a scandal, but later (I think in the last chapter - I do not have the book in front of me now) he talks of Wickham (if I am not mistaken) as his favorite son-in-law while having warmed up to Darcy. I do not know whether you read that, too. I need to check this again.
Gem wrote: "13) Looking back across all three volumes, which moment most decisively determines the novel’s outcome—and why?"
For me it is and has always been the letter from Darcy to Elizabeth after the proposal scene as a certain climax because Darcy "comes from his high horse" to open about his feelings and gets "smashed" by Elizabeth with some false accusations and some maybe legitimate critic. He tries to put that right in the letter and tries to explain why he did what he did and what really happened. I believe that Elizabeth was starting to rethink a bit her own opinions and thoughts e.g. questioning what had really happened between Darcy and Wickham. I think that is deep down the start of her change in feelings, which then become more strengthened by her visit in Pemberley and the praise that came from the housekeeper there and so on.
I read the other day a review of someone giving the whole novel a bad light and accusing Elizabeth of just getting feelings for Darcy because she sees the grandeur of the Pemberley Estate and that she therefore is nothing else but a gold-digger/ fortune hunter, but I strongly disagree with that. She knew very early on how rich Darcy was so she could have just accepted his proposal.
I like how real the characters often act or think. When she drives to the Estate and sees the grandeur of it she says to herself that this could have all been hers. Many of the women in her time would have taken that even if it might meant to not love in a romantic way.
Nancy wrote: "This novel was a delight. I now realize why so many pseudo-regency novels have been written in modern times, and why romance novels in general tend to follow a formula of the heroine and eventual h..."So glad you enjoyed it, Nancy! (And I hope you did too, Gem.) I love Austen for her deft turn of phrase, her way of zeroing in on what’s meaningful in ordinary life experiences, as well as for the stories!
Regarding Mr. Bennet’s comment about Mr. Wickham being his favorite son-in-law, I think he’s being sarcastic. He adds something to the effect of “I defy even Sir William Lucas to come up with a better son-in-law.” Sir William’s son-in-law is, of course, Mr. Collins, the most ridiculous person imaginable; so I think he’s saying that Mr. Wickham is even more of a figure of fun than Mr. Collins, and Mr. Bennet “likes” Wickham because he enjoys opportunities for mockery.Sarcasm is notoriously hard to recognize on the page, and I think the critic who believes Elizabeth decided she wanted to marry Mr. Darcy after seeing his estate is basing his or her opinion on not getting the sarcasm when Elizabeth jokes to Jane about it. But after Elizabeth says that, Jane implores her to be serious—so at least her sister didn’t believe she meant it. I agree with you: Jane Austen works pretty hard to detail the stages by which Elizabeth changed her mind about Darcy, and an attentive reader would not be deceived by her joke.
Yes, on the sarcasm, in both instances! Austen's wit is often subtle.
I was referring to the end of chapter 59 in my edition:“…and Mr Bennet soon assured her that he was rising every hour in his esteem.
‘I admire all my three sons-in-law highly’, said he. ‘Wickham, perhaps, is my favourite; but I think I shall like YOUR husband quite as well as Jane’s,’”<\i>
Now I see actually that YOUR was written in italics. So he must have meant it sarcastic or in a way his favourite in the way he became and the way he is his son-in-law. I read over that distinctive italic / above in capital letters.
Hedi, thanks for reminding me about Wickham. You're absolutely right that the chances of him changing are slim to none.
This is the second time that I’ve read pride and prejudice and for me this read was much better. When it came to the last chapter I thought I was doomed to disappointment as I can’t stand “sickly happy endings“. It was a pleasant surprise that the final chapter was just what I wanted, i.e a more realistic ending than having a double wedding with hundreds of locals turning up to praise them, and everyone attending church every Sunday to admire the couples and their masses of precocious children.At the end of a novel, I usually choose my own protagonist-that’s got to be Elizabeth. I loved her fighting spirit, her articulate conversation when she needed it and the way that she put Lady Muck in her box!
Austen's endings are usually rather abrupt and there is very little talk about feelings, professions of love, guys kneeling down to propose (not sure when in history that became a thing), etc.
Robin P wrote: "Austen's endings are usually rather abrupt and there is very little talk about feelings, professions of love, guys kneeling down to propose (not sure when in history that became a thing), etc."I think Austen wanted to show the kind of rational, companionable marriage she favoured, as a contrast to swoonworthy "happily ever after" endings.
I once came across an interview with Andrew Davies, screenwriter for the 1995 miniseries. He said that the understated ending - Darcy and Elizabeth walking side by side - was how he interpreted Austen's ending. But he added that he sometimes regretted that he did not make them stop and look at each other.
I love the snark of so many of her endings! She often uses them as an occasion to make fun of literary conventions, such as a sappy moral being drawn from the story.
I enjoyed reading this novel once more, enhanced by the questions and comments made by everyone in the group. I think it is a good novel (and would recommend it to anyone dipping toes into the classics) but, for me, it lacks some of the depth and complexity which I find more satisfying in later novels and those of some of her contemporaries.What always disappoints me is the fate of Wickham and Lydia, who, like mistletoe, live parasitic lives feeding off the perceived obligations of Darcy and Elizabeth. Mistletoe is an apt simile in another sense because Wickham’s cavorting in London and Bath will probably be matched by Lydia’s romping amongst the officers when left in camp, or anywhere else for that matter. It feels to me a little bit like giving beggars the money to buy drugs or alcohol.
For allowing Wickham to continue to thrive after his grievous misdemeanours was, in my opinion a miscalculation. In propping up the ‘couple from Hell,’ Darcy and Elizabeth were inflicting misery on countless others, and providing more victims for Wickham's profligacy. Even Darcy’s best friend Bingley and lovely Jane will now have to be saddled for months at a time with the wicked Wickhams.
However, we know that the author enjoyed writing about the spicy gossip relating, for example, to countesses and their lovers etc. in her letters to Cassandra. So maybe Wickham and Lydia were a nod towards the reality of the Regency morality that pervaded Jane Austen’s world.
My favourite part of this last section was the ‘long walk,’ when Darcy and Elizabeth were revealed as humbled and reformed characters. In fact their conversation on that walk exhibited an existential change in both of them when compared to their sparring during their first encounters at Netherfield. Both had gone through that cathartic experience of being found wanting, but both had had the courage to meet the challenge of making amends.
Darcy
’”You taught me a lesson, hard indeed at first, but most advantageous. By you, I was properly humbled. I came to you without a doubt of my reception. You showed me how insufficient were all my pretensions to please a woman worthy of being pleased.”’
“What did you say of me, that I did not deserve? For, though your accusations were ill-founded, formed on mistaken premises, my behaviour to you at the time had merited the severest reproof. It was unpardonable. I cannot think of it without abhorrence.”’
Elizabeth
’”The feelings of the person who wrote, and the person who received it, are now so widely different from what they were then, that every unpleasant circumstance attending it ought to be forgotten. You must learn some of my philosophy. Think only of the past as its remembrance gives you pleasure.”’
“Your surprise could not be greater than MINE in being noticed by you. My conscience told me that I deserved no extraordinary politeness, and I confess that I did not expect to receive MORE than my due.”’
The even handedness of Jane Austen’s treatment of these characters was refreshing and should be applauded.
The multi dimensional aspects of Darcy and Elizabeth were well developed in the novel but many of the other characters were one dimensional. The reader almost knew what those characters were going to say before thy opened their mouths. The visit by
It was a fun novel to read, a bit more serious than Northanger Abbey, but still in the romcom camp as far as I am concerned.
Overall I think it was a fitting tribute to read Jane Austen’s most popular novel (see my unofficial Gutenberg download chart below) in the run up to her 250th birthday.
A quick glance at recent Project Gutenberg downloads allows me to produce an unofficial download chart of Jane Austen’s novels in order of popularity.1. Pride and Prejudice - 107589
2. Sense and Sensibility - 22590
3. Emma - 20706
4. Northanger Abbey - 14698
5. Mansfield Park - 13777
6. Persuasion - 13361
Apart from Northanger Abbey and Pride and Prejudice, I would place them in almost the reverse order but contrariness is part of my nature so I have been told.
Abigail wrote: "(And I hope you did too, Gem.)"I loved it, I'm sorry I did not read it earlier in my life.
Well, on the bright side: I can’t even remember the delighted feeling I had upon reading it for the first time, and the experience of not knowing what would happen next—and you can!
I've almost finished this,and like this better with every read.
Week 6: Volume III, Chapters 9 - 19
Discussion Questions
1) How has Elizabeth’s understanding of Darcy changed since his first proposal? What specifically convinces her that his character has fundamentally altered? Darcy claims his faults were “pride and resentment.” Do you think his self-assessment is accurate? What flaws still remain?
2) Which character shows the least growth by the end of the novel? Is this intentional?
3) Is Austen suggesting that love alone is not enough for marriage? What additional qualities are necessary?
4) How does Lady Catherine’s opposition ironically contribute to Elizabeth and Darcy’s union?
5) How does Lydia’s scandal continue to affect the Bennet family even after her marriage?
6) Elizabeth insists she would not marry without esteem and affection. How radical is this stance in her social context?
7) In what ways does the novel critique the idea that women must marry to secure their futures?
8) How does Mr. Bennet respond to Elizabeth’s engagement differently than he responds to Lydia’s marriage?
9) What role does silence—or restraint—play in healthy relationships, especially when contrasted with Lydia’s impulsiveness?
10) Does the ending feel earned, or too neat? Why?
11) Austen writes with irony even in the novel’s happiest moments. Where do you see humor lingering in the final chapters?
12) What do you think Austen wants readers to learn from Elizabeth and Darcy’s journey?
13) Looking back across all three volumes, which moment most decisively determines the novel’s outcome—and why?
I want to thank everyone who joined in this read. This was my first read of Pride and Prejudice, and the information that everyone contributed allowed me to see points I glossed over. This is one of the many reasons I love this group.