MoonstoneOwl’s review of Babel > Likes and Comments
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Mizuki wrote: "Plus, haven't the author been like anti-white or something right from the start? From what I'd heard, the stand-ins for both the white-skinned Westerners and the Japanese in her Poppy War books are like, all evil, with zero redeemable quality blah blah blah."
Yeah, that's true. I wasn't a critical reader when I read The Poppy War, so I ignored all of that to focus on the fun parts. Babel was the straw that broke the camel's back for me because it was so dull there wasn't much else to focus on but the anti-white sentiment.
Thanks for reading my post, Mizuki :) As a long-time follower and fan of your reviews, I appreciate it.
MoonstoneOwl wrote: "Mizuki wrote: "Plus, haven't the author been like anti-white or something right from the start? From what I'd heard, the stand-ins for both the white-skinned Westerners and the Japanese in her Popp..."
Thank you for sharing your good opinions all the same.
Especially this part:
On that note, how dare I question how a minority expresses her feelings about white people? Some might even ask why am I defensive. Well, as a non-white person, I have nothing to be defensive about, however, there is something fundamentally gross and wrong about this book that goes against my principles.
I guess neither you or me are defending white people here, personally what I am trying to defend is history and the different experiences of the colonized people. You cannot just neatly and cleanly put one party to the 'evil camp' and the other to the 'good camp' like Kuang did, it's damn lazy.
Your review read like an essay and moved me more than the novel itself! Good points and interesting insight
Thank you lord somebody said it! Another thing aside from the awful spoon-fed footnotes, she really hammered in how ‘evil’ English people are (and ONLY them) and how nothing is done without malicious intent. As a black girl, I was actually lowkey offended with her spiel about the abolitionists doing so not because they wanted them to be free, but because they had something to gain. And yet, she mentioned the Quakers having to show evidence of black suffering to add to their cause. Well yes, if we’re going off of Kuang’s own point, then indeed they had to as perhaps parliament would not abolish it without that? How does that mean the Quakers had something to gain? I cringed so hard. Her making Victorie and Anthony mouthpieces for the black population rubbed me the wrong way. Aswell as them all only suffering racial discrimination on England’s shores? I mean seriously; just erasing the discrimination darker skinned people face in east Asian countries felt like a cope out. It would have added more nuance if Ramy and Victorie experienced something over there and it again challenged how Robin viewed his country as NOT EVERYTHING IS BLACK AND WHITE. It also felt as though she was trying to minimise the misogyny in Canton almost to amplify how bad Oxford was. Getting Professor Lovell to say how ‘barbaric’ it was and how they treat women considering the sexist statements he rolled out throughout the novel felt like an intended joke.
We get it, colonisation is abhorrent, what is new? Who was her target audience? It definitely wasn’t the 2022 gen Z that Ramy parroted the whole way through. Such a disappointing read especially as it was my most anticipated.
This is the most ignorant and baseless review I’ve ever read. You should look at why you reacted like this. The British empire still doesn’t take accountability for racism and you’re just proving the point.
Honestly I’m so grateful to have found this review. I finished Babel some days ago and I think it’s terrible for many reasons. And everyone liking it makes me feel like there is something wrong with me…so thank you for being honest about your feelings about the book.🥹
First and foremost, I want to acknowledge that you identify yourself as not white. However, this essay is one of the strongest examples of internalized racism I have ever encountered. There is too much here for me to unpack line by line, so I have chosen two of your specific points to address:
1) " So, therefore, the headspace where we sit around feeling resentful and hateful of what white people did in the past is useless and short-sighted and only results in keeping one in a perpetual state of victimhood. That's a trap that I wish more people didn't fall into."
This "headspace" is not not what keeps people in a state of victimhood, but rather the enduring legacy that colonialism has left us with. Racism is a systematic, institutionalized, reality in western culture. Our society is fundamentally inequitable and in order to address and repair the continued systems of oppression currently at work we have to understand and address the root source. To imply that we have nothing to learn from our history is naive at best. I'm glad that your life experience has been a positive one. However, I encourage you to look up data around gaps in racial wealth, employment, education, and criminalization to help better understand that for many this isn't the case.
2) "these days we have accepted that white people are now punching bags for minorities in order to make up for the past. Whites have accepted this role and they're expected to just endure it because they 'come from a place of privilege'. When a POC expresses their hatred for whites it's nothing more than an act of punching up and therefore whites shouldn't take offense."
Calling out racism is not an attack, but a statement of fact. White people are not a punching bag, but they have inherited a legacy of privilege. Therefore, they have the opportunity to either perpetuate the systematic racist systems they have benefitted from or consider their position and learn from these conversations. Not all white people are bad. And good people are capable of doing racist things, but then need to education about the impact of their actions and hopefully grow from them (dare I say, like you, writing this review). And media that attempts to start these conversations aren't looking to berate, but educate and inspire and maybe open up a window of understanding.
I am an adopted Korean millennial. I grew up in what was then the whitest city in America (literally, statistically) and for the first 25-ish years of my life I identified as white, believed in reverse racism (which isn't real), and did everything I could to separate myself from my Asian identity. It took a lot of reading, therapy, and conversation to make me comfortable in my own skin and able to fully embrace my identity. I do not know your race/culture, so cannot offer any specific reading materials, but I encourage you to seek out the memoirs of those with similar backgrounds as you. That was the number one thing that helped me to both articulate and then dismantle the internalized racism I carried for so long.
April wrote: "First and foremost, I want to acknowledge that you identify yourself as not white. However, this essay is one of the strongest examples of internalized racism I have ever encountered. There is too ..."
While I should say I'm sorry for your unpleasant childhood, I wouldn't use a single worldview to every other experience. Babel's plot offered no real solution to racism.
As an Asian person myself, I see absolutely no racism internalized or otherwise in what OP wrote. Not having a total hatred of dead empires is not apologism for said empires.
I feel like your review is coming from a place of ignorance and refusal of historical relevance. Mean-spirited? The only thing mean spirited is how colonizers rip the resources from overseas and destroy nations. It came from a place of hate? Maybe there is some justified hatred for how the British have done exactly what they did in this book over centuries to countries all over the world for resources and land and slaves. Every white reviewer that says they are upset by the "hatred" in this book is clearly uneducated on worldly history and the impoverishing and murdering of indigenous peoples. Yeah, maybe they are justified in hating the whiteys. "So, therefore, the headspace where we sit around feeling resentful and hateful of what white people did in the past is useless and short-sighted and only results in keeping one in a perpetual state of victimhood. That's a trap that I wish more people didn't fall into." Are you actually serious? Maybe the fact that racism and the effects of colonization and slavery still heavily impact victims centuries later is why there is STILL HATRED. You think indigenous Māori who have been killed, forced to assimilate, and impoverished by the whites taking over can't still feel immense dislike and distrust of colonizers decendents? They are the poorest ethnic group in New Zealand despite being the indigenous of NZ (this is one very small example). So no, people affected by this history do get to still be mad. They get to write books on how mad they are. They get to talk about how their cultures have been whitewashed and their countries ruined by colonizers and they should do so without being told to "shut up and stop being mad".
“but I personally don't think British colonization was patently evil but a mixed bag of good and bad” yikes just yikes.
“…but the fact that they chose to be custodians over the islands set off a chain of events that saw my mum's people ushered into the modern world” Ah yes this modern world with insurmountable inequality, raging systematic injustice and wage slavery as we’re on the brink of climate annihilation from its after effects years later but yeah what a great modern world to be forced into😐. What a hum drum of imperialist doctrination to think the way of the European Colonisers was the “modern” and “right” way while the indigenous culture was barbaric for something a minority partook in, like cannibalism. It is the disease that came with the uncleanly and barbaric colonisers that wiped out a lot of the indigenous population in countries all over but of course, MODERNITY right! The same people who’s monarchy were beheading, setting fire to and stoning their own family and vulnerable people for the most trivial reasons.
just How ironic to review bomb a book for being “mean-spirited” while writing the most mean-spirited and ignorant take seen thus far on it.
To each their own!
Dear MoonstoneOwl:
Sorry to see if you aren't in perfect agreement with R.F. Kuang, then you have people talking down at you, telling you you are an idiot who cannot think for yourself and/or an internalized colonialism apologizer.
In this light, I would say if you have time, it's always nice to read real academic books regarding racism and social issues (Stuart Hall, Paul Gilroy, Norbert Elias are the guys I'm currently reading about) than wasting your time dealing with malicious replies. At least the guys I mentioned above aren't going to talk down at anyone or reduce a complicated problem into a simple "white=evil, POCs=good".
Your review is well written, nuanced, and much better than the book.
I feel like I wrote this you hit it write on the nail with this extremely articulate and well written review
God, yes. I kept having "god we get it, white people BAD" eye roll moments while listening, checked reviews and realised it was an overriding theme of the book and quit. It was so heavy handed. Why did all white people have the attitude expected of the time period, but any non-white person had a 2022, modern view?
I don't think any sane person would deny that colonialism was bad and the effects of that ripple today. It doesn't need to be pointed out on every page like it's a revolutionary idea that nobody has considered before. At the very least, it's boring.
wow it’s almost as if you missed the entire point of the book!
Thank goodness I am not the only one that saw the issues in the book. Is the book well written, yes. Is the book brilliant in some aspects, yes. I have many thoughts on this book none good. In the case of this book “what’s good for the goose will get the gander hung.”
I didn’t have the bandwidth to write a review anywhere near this level, but I hated this book with a passion. Great review.
This review just made me want to read this book more. The stuff got you this mad is sure to deeply entertain me
April wrote: "First and foremost, I want to acknowledge that you identify yourself as not white. However, this essay is one of the strongest examples of internalized racism I have ever encountered. There is too ..."
I'm so happy that this comment, as long as other in the same line, exist in this review! I got scared for a moment that all the people in this trend were behaving exactly like Letty did in the book.
Incredible how many people decided to find a problem with the author, but not with the reality of her book.
Well written and reasoned. Would be interesting to hear you and the author discuss this on one of those civil podcasts.
April wrote: "First and foremost, I want to acknowledge that you identify yourself as not white. However, this essay is one of the strongest examples of internalized racism I have ever encountered. There is too ..."
Thank you for your incredible reply on this ignorant review. As someone who actually lives in a former colony of some European country, the impact of colonialism is still rampant. Sure no book is perfect but I feel heard and seen by this book. We know that a lot of young people read this book on instagram or tiktok and I'm so glad R. F Kuang uses her popularity to write an amazing, heavy-subject book, in a simple and clear language.
This review made me a little sad, it's evident you missed the whole point of the book. It provided the rich nuance that you're claiming didn't exist and being a Letty apologist is wild lol
I wholeheartedly agree. All we have to do these days is look around us in the past 6 years. George Foyle, Black Lives Matter, massacre of Asian businesses in Atlanta, white man killing anti racism demonstration in Wisconsin found not guilty. We know that it happens. You can’t look at the news and not hear about white people sucks! (Your word, not mine). Do we have to read about it in a historical fiction too. Although it’s historical, do you think she did the research?
I have to disagree on the footnote. I learn a lot from it. Not sure why you think it’s annoying. You are probably smarter than most people.
I agree with literally every word and i’m only at chapter 14. Letty was really going to be good written character if she had chances. Besides robin. But nah. She’s just like what you described her seriously with every word.
what in the internalised racism is this 😭 this is somehow the most white take on this book in existence and you’re not even white
If Kuang rewrote Babel to reflect Moonstone’s view, Robin’s central conflict would be between an undying love for Letty and a desire to reconnect with his roots represented in Griffin. Robin would conclude that love conquers all, all the suffering is worth the spoils, rat out the Hermes Society, and live happily ever after as Letty’s respected—but submissive—husband.
I don't realize why as poc we have to justify our hatred and emotions towards our oppressors in the most rational way. I thought maybe this book will make white people finally empathize with us. If you thought that "white people bad" was the message you didn't care about the extreme amounts of racism the characters had to experience. If you felt sorry for Letty then you don't care about the evil shit she said and done. And you surely did not give a fuck about their cooperation with the English Proletariat nor about the experiences of poc with racism, war, slavery, poverty, sickness etc nor about the long 19th century and its history. But then again you didn't read the book. You really shouldn't write a review about a book you haven't read. For the love of god at least read it completely.
Oh and btw - what in the internalized racism is this review. "Every nation did bad things, the British actually banned cannibalism in my country" Please open up a history book about colonialism. Your small island didn't economically exploit multiple nations in a way that the effects are still seen to this day.
What a massively bad take, shows that you didnt read it completely…
this review summed up: internalised racism
wow....someone really didn't understand the point....and maybe a bit of a closet-racist.
Ella wrote: "This is the most ignorant and baseless review I’ve ever read. You should look at why you reacted like this. The British empire still doesn’t take accountability for racism and you’re just proving t..."
The British empire took accountability for slavery and racism by passing the Slavery Abolition Act on Aug. 1, 1834. It then spent tens of millions of dollars and sacrificed many thousands of lives fighting slavery on the open seas and looking to end the slave trade. From 1808-1860 the Royal Navy captured 1600 slave ships and freed 150000 enslaved Africa.
Britain set a precedent for ending slavery in the west and interestingly enough slavery is still heavily practiced in dozens of countries to this day. Britain has done more than almost any other country in existence to make amends for its history. You'd know this to be true if you spent any time in London in the past 10 years.
To simply cast aside this review as ignorant and baseless only evidences your own bigotry and bias.
Zarbin wrote: "Ella wrote: "This is the most ignorant and baseless review I’ve ever read. You should look at why you reacted like this. The British empire still doesn’t take accountability for racism and you’re j..."
There is no use saying all these, if you dare to breathe one word about what had been done for the decolonization process in the UK, then you are just another imperialism apologiser.
The fact people can only do the equivalent of "name calling" with asinine statements like 'bad take' and 'internalized racism' just show how damn stupid they are and how the world is getting dumber by the day.
Not even one counterargument, not ONE. In such a long review it shouldn't be that hard to find a single statement to write a simple rebuttal to right? If the person is so wrong, explain why I wanna know, otherwise STFU. You're the living negative stereotype of the modern liberal that calls everything 'problematic' with no actual basis, just a bunch of teen angst you never grew out of. It makes the rest of us look bad. Now go ahead, claim I'm racist or some other false and empty platitude to make yourself feel better.
As a person whose family also comes from a country that was a British colony well into the '40s, I understand where you’re coming from but disagree with you on the whole. I’m going to break down your argument into a few major contentions and discuss my thoughts on those points. You’re not obligated to read this – I know I find hearing other people openly disagree with me uncomfortable – but I think this is worth the discomfort.
Firstly, I’d like to talk about this notion you present of white people being used as a punching bag for minorities and the broader idea of universal white evilness. To begin with, you can’t only view this book and its characters through a contemporary lens. Obviously, not all white people are terrible people. I think it would be redundant to state that quite a lot of my friends are white and they try to understand where I’m coming from on the subject of race and imperialism when I discuss it. But you have to consider that most of the white characters in the book are coming from significant places of privilege and many of them do have ulterior motives. Take, for example, the end of slavery: yes, it was partially brought about on moral/religious principles, as it was inhumane according to Enlightenment ideals, and it would be absurd to minimize the role that slaves had on their own freedom – take the Haitian Revolution for example, of the Great Jamaica Revolt – but there was also an economic component to it; release of slaves was a pipeline to free labor which in turn increased capitalism and kept the global market turning only at somewhat greater inconvenience. And even if they don’t have ulterior motives, Britain is spoonfeeding them racist, xenophobic rhetoric to keep public favor of imperialist expansion – Social Darwinism and the idea of a ‘civilizing mission’ (Kipling’s The White Man’s Burden is an excellent example of this) are two major ideologies that were used to legitimize their subjugation of foreigners. So I don’t expect that white people in the mid-19th century would be very forgiving to me or you if we were to show up to pursue education at their beloved Oxford. Hell, my mother studied at Oxford just a few decades ago and she still had quite a rough go at it.
Regarding the footnotes – I think that’s down to personal preference. I appreciated them because I enjoyed the bits of extrapolation and historical context and am not unused to digression, but I get if you found it heavyhanded. It seems to me that ‘show not tell’ isn’t Kuang’s greatest strength, but I didn’t find it was obstructive to the text as a whole.
Let’s talk about the characters. You found a lot of them flat. Valid enough, but we’ll have to agree to disagree. Robin underwent such a momentous arc as the glittering facade of Oxford crumbled around him and he slid into a sort of darkness – or perhaps awareness – alongside it. I don’t think Ramy can only be defined only as a hater of England – it’s just that suddenly he’s surrounded for the first time in his life by people who can see where he’s coming from. It’s that sort of talk that makes white people uncomfortable, and I think he was trying to prod that sore spot a bit. And seeing as I’ve had friends call my stovetop Chai-making pretentious, I can’t blame him. I see where you’re coming from with Victoire; I really would have liked the characterization that began to unfold later in the story a lot earlier, especially because she’s in the toughest position as a woman and a person of color. And then, as you say, there’s Letty… whose chapter I thought was well done. Letty was in a strange position because she was disadvantaged as a woman but ultimately would not be rejected and ostracized by the country she studied in like the others. The problem isn’t that Letty’s innocence comes from her ignorance, the problem is that she knows that British, spoonfed ignorance is protecting her and that’s why she betrays the others. I’d like to point out that the time the others are waiting for Letty to leave is because they desperately need to discuss a secret society that she is not part of and is not likely to be sympathetic to anyway. And about her and Ramy – yeah, Ramy liked to make her uncomfortable sometimes, but Letty always found more excuses to blanket herself than ever to admit she was wrong. Also, it’s implied that Ramy was gay and wasn’t interested in her, not just that he can’t tolerate her.
Finally, I really want to talk about this alleged ‘POC victim mentality’ and place of harboring resentment that’s apparently afflicting the youth these days, which I think I’m pretty qualified to speak about, as a person of color and a youth. I know myself, and I know that it’s pointless to blame people today for the wrongs of the past. I don’t spend time plotting vengeance or feeling victimized. Yeah, I agree; that won’t get you anywhere. And I understand that I, like you, would not have the opportunities I have today if things in history hadn’t gone down the way they did. But I have my parents to thank for that – people who were brave enough to leave their country looking for greater opportunities; people who left their homes across the ocean where they were safely well off to work from the bottom up, only riding off their educations and money they’d saved or gotten as marriage gifts; people who sacrificed so much so I would be growing up as less of a stranger in a strange land – not the British or any other imperialist society. Like Robin realizes, I can recognize that colonizers changed the shape of my family’s history without needing to thank them for it.
There are a few things I can’t really address. I have no insight into the goings-on in the minds of any Caucasians who give the book 5 stars (I’d be interested to hear their thoughts, though). I’m not going to argue with the fact that you found the book dull – I mean, not every book is going to be everyone’s cup of tea in terms of pacing and narrative voice, and that’s perfectly alright.
I’ve struggled for years with my identity. I love the food of my culture, but I don’t feel any fondness for its politics and can’t justify whether they’re better or worse than that of the country I was born and raised in. I can understand my parents’ language, but I can barely get past reading and writing the alphabet and can’t seem to think of it as my own. I like the clothing but feel jarred and disconcerted when I wear it. Seeing Robin wrestle with the same questions as I do made me feel less alone, and the first time Ramy was introduced I had to swallow my tears because I have always been too afraid to write a character so much like me. The point of the book isn’t for people to hate white people or buy into anger and suffering, the point is for people to recognize that this colonial legacy is still upheld in the status quo of today and maybe for readers whose lives have been changed by colonialism to see themselves in and find some solidarity with the characters. I’m sorry that didn’t work out for you.
So: I think Babel is a story that needed to be told. It’s not a performative novel, and it comes from a place of good intent, but most importantly, it’s a story that needed to be told because formerly imperialist countries still don’t take accountability for their actions. Latin- and South American markets are weaker because dependent development meant that they industrialized very late; China got Hong Kong back less than 30 years ago; stolen Indian gems are still displayed as the crown jewels of the English; the global market gap that arose from British imperialism in conjunction with manufacturing increased rural poverty across Asia as cities could not sustain the population growth. And those effects are visible today. Babel is important because there are worldwide repercussions of imperialism that are not going away anytime soon, and governments that benefited from it once are still befitting of it.
To postface: I recognize that many of the points in my rebuttal draw on my own lived experience and that your argument stems from your own lived experience; I’m not here to poke holes in your personal experience or invalidate it in any way but I hope that my rebuttal will let you see another take from a different point of view, from one person who has to live with the weight of a colonial legacy etched into your family history to another.
Vellichor wrote: "As a person whose family also comes from a country that was a British colony well into the '40s, I understand where you’re coming from but disagree with you on the whole. I’m going to break down yo..."
I like how you present you points respectfully, but then this happens:
China got Hong Kong back less than 30 years ago;
And have you read the news in the past 3 years and learned anything about how many of the HongKongers feel about the CCP government and the British government right now? Or how do the Taiwanese, the Mongolians, or the Uyghurs feel about said regime when Taiwan is threatened with military invasion, the Mongolians and the Uyghurs got their languages, cultures, and religion suppressed and outlawed?
Have you noticed that many HongKongers would rather migrate to Britain or USA or Canada or other white people countries in waves during the 1984 to 1997 period once they realized "China will get Hong Kong back" in 1997 as you so "lovingly" described?
Have you noticed that in the last two years alone 170,000 HongKongers migrated to Britain because they cannot deal with the CCP's BS anymore? And many more migrated or fled to other countries for the same reason!?
Before you talk again about how "China got Hong Kong back" like it's the only rational, righteous, politically correct thing to do, please do reconsider.
My following point is not against you, but I'm quite sick and tired of people talked like white people are the only race that is capable of racism, suppression, discrimination and wrongdoings, but Chinese and Indians etc are not capable of the same things, or they were not capable of imperialism of their own when China, India etc were empires like Britian back then.
Vellichor wrote: "As a person whose family also comes from a country that was a British colony well into the '40s, I understand where you’re coming from but disagree with you on the whole. I’m going to break down yo..."
Plus it's purely and beautifully ironic that you brought up Hong Kong as an example of the Imperial British Empire's wrongdoings and exploitation when after WWII, the population of HK society is made up of migrants and descendants of migrants fleeing the disasters (political persecutions, executions, famines, etc) kicked up by the CCP even since 1949. That includes at least one of my late grandfathers, so do excuse me for feeling personally offended by your comment.
Thank you. Completely agree and if you point this out, people get mad because you are supposed to support openly hating white people too. It was a completely mean spirited book
I wish Id have read this before starting it. I'm all for tolerance and truly want equality, themes that are unfortunately not explored in this book. If your comment was made into a book itself, it would still have more depth than what Robin has. Seriously I don't care about Robin. You killed a guy but because he was white then its ok. We're just so lucky that it was only Britain that did anything bad to anyone ever.
Letty has only two character traits- a privileged white girl who always says the wrong thing and even when attempting sympathy or compassion is simply infuriating to her "friends". For example when Letty cannot possibly go more than 2 days without bathing or washing her clothes (that bitch!) yet is also their "prim English rose" before then becoming "that white bitch".
The plot holes are deeper than her character.
The author has drummed into it every five sentences about "this is bad" "this is racism" as though its the most subtle nuanced example ever committed to page.
Every single white character in the book is condescending, brash and awful, whereas every single poc character is brilliant, articulate and always on the right of the argument, especially when killing off the pesky white folk. It feels like the starting passage should have been "I'm not racist I have white friends". Instead the book is one LONG language lesson dressed up as "fantasy" when the one element of Fantasy within the book is barely used and fails to make any real difference to the world its employed in.
I fail to understand the pacing, where the first few years at Oxford fly by with many months passing by in the blink of an eye, and yet for page after page seemingly insignificant points are hashed, rehashed and then rehashed some more. Then lets put a little authors note in there so my audience know what's going on.
Why write a book with so much passion for language (which i really found myself enjoying actually) as a textbook almost in its dryness, yet then assume that your audience only has two brain cells and that one of those is being used on being racist.
Overall at the end of the book I find myself disappointed at an opportunity missed, at a failed promise of potential and no doubt looking forward to reading thousands of "Ha closet racist" alert by the people who loved the book.
I wish I had read this review picking up this book.
Thanks for this review. I'm only 15% into the book and I am already tiring of the heavy handed white people = evil narrative. Now I know it doesn't get any better I can put it down and never pick it up again.
THANK YOU! I was not enjoying this book but felt guilty because it seems densely creative and appropriately "woke." Now I can quit with a clear conscience!
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Mizuki wrote: "Plus, haven't the author been like anti-white or something right from the start? From what I'd heard, the stand-ins for both the white-skinned Westerners and the Japanese in her Poppy War books are like, all evil, with zero redeemable quality blah blah blah."Yeah, that's true. I wasn't a critical reader when I read The Poppy War, so I ignored all of that to focus on the fun parts. Babel was the straw that broke the camel's back for me because it was so dull there wasn't much else to focus on but the anti-white sentiment.
Thanks for reading my post, Mizuki :) As a long-time follower and fan of your reviews, I appreciate it.
MoonstoneOwl wrote: "Mizuki wrote: "Plus, haven't the author been like anti-white or something right from the start? From what I'd heard, the stand-ins for both the white-skinned Westerners and the Japanese in her Popp..."Thank you for sharing your good opinions all the same.
Especially this part:
On that note, how dare I question how a minority expresses her feelings about white people? Some might even ask why am I defensive. Well, as a non-white person, I have nothing to be defensive about, however, there is something fundamentally gross and wrong about this book that goes against my principles.
I guess neither you or me are defending white people here, personally what I am trying to defend is history and the different experiences of the colonized people. You cannot just neatly and cleanly put one party to the 'evil camp' and the other to the 'good camp' like Kuang did, it's damn lazy.
Your review read like an essay and moved me more than the novel itself! Good points and interesting insight
Thank you lord somebody said it! Another thing aside from the awful spoon-fed footnotes, she really hammered in how ‘evil’ English people are (and ONLY them) and how nothing is done without malicious intent. As a black girl, I was actually lowkey offended with her spiel about the abolitionists doing so not because they wanted them to be free, but because they had something to gain. And yet, she mentioned the Quakers having to show evidence of black suffering to add to their cause. Well yes, if we’re going off of Kuang’s own point, then indeed they had to as perhaps parliament would not abolish it without that? How does that mean the Quakers had something to gain? I cringed so hard. Her making Victorie and Anthony mouthpieces for the black population rubbed me the wrong way. Aswell as them all only suffering racial discrimination on England’s shores? I mean seriously; just erasing the discrimination darker skinned people face in east Asian countries felt like a cope out. It would have added more nuance if Ramy and Victorie experienced something over there and it again challenged how Robin viewed his country as NOT EVERYTHING IS BLACK AND WHITE. It also felt as though she was trying to minimise the misogyny in Canton almost to amplify how bad Oxford was. Getting Professor Lovell to say how ‘barbaric’ it was and how they treat women considering the sexist statements he rolled out throughout the novel felt like an intended joke. We get it, colonisation is abhorrent, what is new? Who was her target audience? It definitely wasn’t the 2022 gen Z that Ramy parroted the whole way through. Such a disappointing read especially as it was my most anticipated.
This is the most ignorant and baseless review I’ve ever read. You should look at why you reacted like this. The British empire still doesn’t take accountability for racism and you’re just proving the point.
Honestly I’m so grateful to have found this review. I finished Babel some days ago and I think it’s terrible for many reasons. And everyone liking it makes me feel like there is something wrong with me…so thank you for being honest about your feelings about the book.🥹
First and foremost, I want to acknowledge that you identify yourself as not white. However, this essay is one of the strongest examples of internalized racism I have ever encountered. There is too much here for me to unpack line by line, so I have chosen two of your specific points to address: 1) " So, therefore, the headspace where we sit around feeling resentful and hateful of what white people did in the past is useless and short-sighted and only results in keeping one in a perpetual state of victimhood. That's a trap that I wish more people didn't fall into."
This "headspace" is not not what keeps people in a state of victimhood, but rather the enduring legacy that colonialism has left us with. Racism is a systematic, institutionalized, reality in western culture. Our society is fundamentally inequitable and in order to address and repair the continued systems of oppression currently at work we have to understand and address the root source. To imply that we have nothing to learn from our history is naive at best. I'm glad that your life experience has been a positive one. However, I encourage you to look up data around gaps in racial wealth, employment, education, and criminalization to help better understand that for many this isn't the case.
2) "these days we have accepted that white people are now punching bags for minorities in order to make up for the past. Whites have accepted this role and they're expected to just endure it because they 'come from a place of privilege'. When a POC expresses their hatred for whites it's nothing more than an act of punching up and therefore whites shouldn't take offense."
Calling out racism is not an attack, but a statement of fact. White people are not a punching bag, but they have inherited a legacy of privilege. Therefore, they have the opportunity to either perpetuate the systematic racist systems they have benefitted from or consider their position and learn from these conversations. Not all white people are bad. And good people are capable of doing racist things, but then need to education about the impact of their actions and hopefully grow from them (dare I say, like you, writing this review). And media that attempts to start these conversations aren't looking to berate, but educate and inspire and maybe open up a window of understanding.
I am an adopted Korean millennial. I grew up in what was then the whitest city in America (literally, statistically) and for the first 25-ish years of my life I identified as white, believed in reverse racism (which isn't real), and did everything I could to separate myself from my Asian identity. It took a lot of reading, therapy, and conversation to make me comfortable in my own skin and able to fully embrace my identity. I do not know your race/culture, so cannot offer any specific reading materials, but I encourage you to seek out the memoirs of those with similar backgrounds as you. That was the number one thing that helped me to both articulate and then dismantle the internalized racism I carried for so long.
April wrote: "First and foremost, I want to acknowledge that you identify yourself as not white. However, this essay is one of the strongest examples of internalized racism I have ever encountered. There is too ..."While I should say I'm sorry for your unpleasant childhood, I wouldn't use a single worldview to every other experience. Babel's plot offered no real solution to racism.
As an Asian person myself, I see absolutely no racism internalized or otherwise in what OP wrote. Not having a total hatred of dead empires is not apologism for said empires.
I feel like your review is coming from a place of ignorance and refusal of historical relevance. Mean-spirited? The only thing mean spirited is how colonizers rip the resources from overseas and destroy nations. It came from a place of hate? Maybe there is some justified hatred for how the British have done exactly what they did in this book over centuries to countries all over the world for resources and land and slaves. Every white reviewer that says they are upset by the "hatred" in this book is clearly uneducated on worldly history and the impoverishing and murdering of indigenous peoples. Yeah, maybe they are justified in hating the whiteys. "So, therefore, the headspace where we sit around feeling resentful and hateful of what white people did in the past is useless and short-sighted and only results in keeping one in a perpetual state of victimhood. That's a trap that I wish more people didn't fall into." Are you actually serious? Maybe the fact that racism and the effects of colonization and slavery still heavily impact victims centuries later is why there is STILL HATRED. You think indigenous Māori who have been killed, forced to assimilate, and impoverished by the whites taking over can't still feel immense dislike and distrust of colonizers decendents? They are the poorest ethnic group in New Zealand despite being the indigenous of NZ (this is one very small example). So no, people affected by this history do get to still be mad. They get to write books on how mad they are. They get to talk about how their cultures have been whitewashed and their countries ruined by colonizers and they should do so without being told to "shut up and stop being mad".
“but I personally don't think British colonization was patently evil but a mixed bag of good and bad” yikes just yikes. “…but the fact that they chose to be custodians over the islands set off a chain of events that saw my mum's people ushered into the modern world” Ah yes this modern world with insurmountable inequality, raging systematic injustice and wage slavery as we’re on the brink of climate annihilation from its after effects years later but yeah what a great modern world to be forced into😐. What a hum drum of imperialist doctrination to think the way of the European Colonisers was the “modern” and “right” way while the indigenous culture was barbaric for something a minority partook in, like cannibalism. It is the disease that came with the uncleanly and barbaric colonisers that wiped out a lot of the indigenous population in countries all over but of course, MODERNITY right! The same people who’s monarchy were beheading, setting fire to and stoning their own family and vulnerable people for the most trivial reasons.
just How ironic to review bomb a book for being “mean-spirited” while writing the most mean-spirited and ignorant take seen thus far on it.
To each their own!
Dear MoonstoneOwl:Sorry to see if you aren't in perfect agreement with R.F. Kuang, then you have people talking down at you, telling you you are an idiot who cannot think for yourself and/or an internalized colonialism apologizer.
In this light, I would say if you have time, it's always nice to read real academic books regarding racism and social issues (Stuart Hall, Paul Gilroy, Norbert Elias are the guys I'm currently reading about) than wasting your time dealing with malicious replies. At least the guys I mentioned above aren't going to talk down at anyone or reduce a complicated problem into a simple "white=evil, POCs=good".
Your review is well written, nuanced, and much better than the book.
I feel like I wrote this you hit it write on the nail with this extremely articulate and well written review
God, yes. I kept having "god we get it, white people BAD" eye roll moments while listening, checked reviews and realised it was an overriding theme of the book and quit. It was so heavy handed. Why did all white people have the attitude expected of the time period, but any non-white person had a 2022, modern view? I don't think any sane person would deny that colonialism was bad and the effects of that ripple today. It doesn't need to be pointed out on every page like it's a revolutionary idea that nobody has considered before. At the very least, it's boring.
wow it’s almost as if you missed the entire point of the book!
Thank goodness I am not the only one that saw the issues in the book. Is the book well written, yes. Is the book brilliant in some aspects, yes. I have many thoughts on this book none good. In the case of this book “what’s good for the goose will get the gander hung.”
I didn’t have the bandwidth to write a review anywhere near this level, but I hated this book with a passion. Great review.
This review just made me want to read this book more. The stuff got you this mad is sure to deeply entertain me
April wrote: "First and foremost, I want to acknowledge that you identify yourself as not white. However, this essay is one of the strongest examples of internalized racism I have ever encountered. There is too ..."I'm so happy that this comment, as long as other in the same line, exist in this review! I got scared for a moment that all the people in this trend were behaving exactly like Letty did in the book.
Incredible how many people decided to find a problem with the author, but not with the reality of her book.
Well written and reasoned. Would be interesting to hear you and the author discuss this on one of those civil podcasts.
April wrote: "First and foremost, I want to acknowledge that you identify yourself as not white. However, this essay is one of the strongest examples of internalized racism I have ever encountered. There is too ..."Thank you for your incredible reply on this ignorant review. As someone who actually lives in a former colony of some European country, the impact of colonialism is still rampant. Sure no book is perfect but I feel heard and seen by this book. We know that a lot of young people read this book on instagram or tiktok and I'm so glad R. F Kuang uses her popularity to write an amazing, heavy-subject book, in a simple and clear language.
This review made me a little sad, it's evident you missed the whole point of the book. It provided the rich nuance that you're claiming didn't exist and being a Letty apologist is wild lol
I wholeheartedly agree. All we have to do these days is look around us in the past 6 years. George Foyle, Black Lives Matter, massacre of Asian businesses in Atlanta, white man killing anti racism demonstration in Wisconsin found not guilty. We know that it happens. You can’t look at the news and not hear about white people sucks! (Your word, not mine). Do we have to read about it in a historical fiction too. Although it’s historical, do you think she did the research?I have to disagree on the footnote. I learn a lot from it. Not sure why you think it’s annoying. You are probably smarter than most people.
I agree with literally every word and i’m only at chapter 14. Letty was really going to be good written character if she had chances. Besides robin. But nah. She’s just like what you described her seriously with every word.
what in the internalised racism is this 😭 this is somehow the most white take on this book in existence and you’re not even white
If Kuang rewrote Babel to reflect Moonstone’s view, Robin’s central conflict would be between an undying love for Letty and a desire to reconnect with his roots represented in Griffin. Robin would conclude that love conquers all, all the suffering is worth the spoils, rat out the Hermes Society, and live happily ever after as Letty’s respected—but submissive—husband.
I don't realize why as poc we have to justify our hatred and emotions towards our oppressors in the most rational way. I thought maybe this book will make white people finally empathize with us. If you thought that "white people bad" was the message you didn't care about the extreme amounts of racism the characters had to experience. If you felt sorry for Letty then you don't care about the evil shit she said and done. And you surely did not give a fuck about their cooperation with the English Proletariat nor about the experiences of poc with racism, war, slavery, poverty, sickness etc nor about the long 19th century and its history. But then again you didn't read the book. You really shouldn't write a review about a book you haven't read. For the love of god at least read it completely.
Oh and btw - what in the internalized racism is this review. "Every nation did bad things, the British actually banned cannibalism in my country" Please open up a history book about colonialism. Your small island didn't economically exploit multiple nations in a way that the effects are still seen to this day.
What a massively bad take, shows that you didnt read it completely…
this review summed up: internalised racism
wow....someone really didn't understand the point....and maybe a bit of a closet-racist.
Ella wrote: "This is the most ignorant and baseless review I’ve ever read. You should look at why you reacted like this. The British empire still doesn’t take accountability for racism and you’re just proving t..."The British empire took accountability for slavery and racism by passing the Slavery Abolition Act on Aug. 1, 1834. It then spent tens of millions of dollars and sacrificed many thousands of lives fighting slavery on the open seas and looking to end the slave trade. From 1808-1860 the Royal Navy captured 1600 slave ships and freed 150000 enslaved Africa.
Britain set a precedent for ending slavery in the west and interestingly enough slavery is still heavily practiced in dozens of countries to this day. Britain has done more than almost any other country in existence to make amends for its history. You'd know this to be true if you spent any time in London in the past 10 years.
To simply cast aside this review as ignorant and baseless only evidences your own bigotry and bias.
Zarbin wrote: "Ella wrote: "This is the most ignorant and baseless review I’ve ever read. You should look at why you reacted like this. The British empire still doesn’t take accountability for racism and you’re j..."There is no use saying all these, if you dare to breathe one word about what had been done for the decolonization process in the UK, then you are just another imperialism apologiser.
The fact people can only do the equivalent of "name calling" with asinine statements like 'bad take' and 'internalized racism' just show how damn stupid they are and how the world is getting dumber by the day. Not even one counterargument, not ONE. In such a long review it shouldn't be that hard to find a single statement to write a simple rebuttal to right? If the person is so wrong, explain why I wanna know, otherwise STFU. You're the living negative stereotype of the modern liberal that calls everything 'problematic' with no actual basis, just a bunch of teen angst you never grew out of. It makes the rest of us look bad. Now go ahead, claim I'm racist or some other false and empty platitude to make yourself feel better.
As a person whose family also comes from a country that was a British colony well into the '40s, I understand where you’re coming from but disagree with you on the whole. I’m going to break down your argument into a few major contentions and discuss my thoughts on those points. You’re not obligated to read this – I know I find hearing other people openly disagree with me uncomfortable – but I think this is worth the discomfort.Firstly, I’d like to talk about this notion you present of white people being used as a punching bag for minorities and the broader idea of universal white evilness. To begin with, you can’t only view this book and its characters through a contemporary lens. Obviously, not all white people are terrible people. I think it would be redundant to state that quite a lot of my friends are white and they try to understand where I’m coming from on the subject of race and imperialism when I discuss it. But you have to consider that most of the white characters in the book are coming from significant places of privilege and many of them do have ulterior motives. Take, for example, the end of slavery: yes, it was partially brought about on moral/religious principles, as it was inhumane according to Enlightenment ideals, and it would be absurd to minimize the role that slaves had on their own freedom – take the Haitian Revolution for example, of the Great Jamaica Revolt – but there was also an economic component to it; release of slaves was a pipeline to free labor which in turn increased capitalism and kept the global market turning only at somewhat greater inconvenience. And even if they don’t have ulterior motives, Britain is spoonfeeding them racist, xenophobic rhetoric to keep public favor of imperialist expansion – Social Darwinism and the idea of a ‘civilizing mission’ (Kipling’s The White Man’s Burden is an excellent example of this) are two major ideologies that were used to legitimize their subjugation of foreigners. So I don’t expect that white people in the mid-19th century would be very forgiving to me or you if we were to show up to pursue education at their beloved Oxford. Hell, my mother studied at Oxford just a few decades ago and she still had quite a rough go at it.
Regarding the footnotes – I think that’s down to personal preference. I appreciated them because I enjoyed the bits of extrapolation and historical context and am not unused to digression, but I get if you found it heavyhanded. It seems to me that ‘show not tell’ isn’t Kuang’s greatest strength, but I didn’t find it was obstructive to the text as a whole.
Let’s talk about the characters. You found a lot of them flat. Valid enough, but we’ll have to agree to disagree. Robin underwent such a momentous arc as the glittering facade of Oxford crumbled around him and he slid into a sort of darkness – or perhaps awareness – alongside it. I don’t think Ramy can only be defined only as a hater of England – it’s just that suddenly he’s surrounded for the first time in his life by people who can see where he’s coming from. It’s that sort of talk that makes white people uncomfortable, and I think he was trying to prod that sore spot a bit. And seeing as I’ve had friends call my stovetop Chai-making pretentious, I can’t blame him. I see where you’re coming from with Victoire; I really would have liked the characterization that began to unfold later in the story a lot earlier, especially because she’s in the toughest position as a woman and a person of color. And then, as you say, there’s Letty… whose chapter I thought was well done. Letty was in a strange position because she was disadvantaged as a woman but ultimately would not be rejected and ostracized by the country she studied in like the others. The problem isn’t that Letty’s innocence comes from her ignorance, the problem is that she knows that British, spoonfed ignorance is protecting her and that’s why she betrays the others. I’d like to point out that the time the others are waiting for Letty to leave is because they desperately need to discuss a secret society that she is not part of and is not likely to be sympathetic to anyway. And about her and Ramy – yeah, Ramy liked to make her uncomfortable sometimes, but Letty always found more excuses to blanket herself than ever to admit she was wrong. Also, it’s implied that Ramy was gay and wasn’t interested in her, not just that he can’t tolerate her.
Finally, I really want to talk about this alleged ‘POC victim mentality’ and place of harboring resentment that’s apparently afflicting the youth these days, which I think I’m pretty qualified to speak about, as a person of color and a youth. I know myself, and I know that it’s pointless to blame people today for the wrongs of the past. I don’t spend time plotting vengeance or feeling victimized. Yeah, I agree; that won’t get you anywhere. And I understand that I, like you, would not have the opportunities I have today if things in history hadn’t gone down the way they did. But I have my parents to thank for that – people who were brave enough to leave their country looking for greater opportunities; people who left their homes across the ocean where they were safely well off to work from the bottom up, only riding off their educations and money they’d saved or gotten as marriage gifts; people who sacrificed so much so I would be growing up as less of a stranger in a strange land – not the British or any other imperialist society. Like Robin realizes, I can recognize that colonizers changed the shape of my family’s history without needing to thank them for it.
There are a few things I can’t really address. I have no insight into the goings-on in the minds of any Caucasians who give the book 5 stars (I’d be interested to hear their thoughts, though). I’m not going to argue with the fact that you found the book dull – I mean, not every book is going to be everyone’s cup of tea in terms of pacing and narrative voice, and that’s perfectly alright.
I’ve struggled for years with my identity. I love the food of my culture, but I don’t feel any fondness for its politics and can’t justify whether they’re better or worse than that of the country I was born and raised in. I can understand my parents’ language, but I can barely get past reading and writing the alphabet and can’t seem to think of it as my own. I like the clothing but feel jarred and disconcerted when I wear it. Seeing Robin wrestle with the same questions as I do made me feel less alone, and the first time Ramy was introduced I had to swallow my tears because I have always been too afraid to write a character so much like me. The point of the book isn’t for people to hate white people or buy into anger and suffering, the point is for people to recognize that this colonial legacy is still upheld in the status quo of today and maybe for readers whose lives have been changed by colonialism to see themselves in and find some solidarity with the characters. I’m sorry that didn’t work out for you.
So: I think Babel is a story that needed to be told. It’s not a performative novel, and it comes from a place of good intent, but most importantly, it’s a story that needed to be told because formerly imperialist countries still don’t take accountability for their actions. Latin- and South American markets are weaker because dependent development meant that they industrialized very late; China got Hong Kong back less than 30 years ago; stolen Indian gems are still displayed as the crown jewels of the English; the global market gap that arose from British imperialism in conjunction with manufacturing increased rural poverty across Asia as cities could not sustain the population growth. And those effects are visible today. Babel is important because there are worldwide repercussions of imperialism that are not going away anytime soon, and governments that benefited from it once are still befitting of it.
To postface: I recognize that many of the points in my rebuttal draw on my own lived experience and that your argument stems from your own lived experience; I’m not here to poke holes in your personal experience or invalidate it in any way but I hope that my rebuttal will let you see another take from a different point of view, from one person who has to live with the weight of a colonial legacy etched into your family history to another.
Vellichor wrote: "As a person whose family also comes from a country that was a British colony well into the '40s, I understand where you’re coming from but disagree with you on the whole. I’m going to break down yo..."I like how you present you points respectfully, but then this happens:
China got Hong Kong back less than 30 years ago;
And have you read the news in the past 3 years and learned anything about how many of the HongKongers feel about the CCP government and the British government right now? Or how do the Taiwanese, the Mongolians, or the Uyghurs feel about said regime when Taiwan is threatened with military invasion, the Mongolians and the Uyghurs got their languages, cultures, and religion suppressed and outlawed?
Have you noticed that many HongKongers would rather migrate to Britain or USA or Canada or other white people countries in waves during the 1984 to 1997 period once they realized "China will get Hong Kong back" in 1997 as you so "lovingly" described?
Have you noticed that in the last two years alone 170,000 HongKongers migrated to Britain because they cannot deal with the CCP's BS anymore? And many more migrated or fled to other countries for the same reason!?
Before you talk again about how "China got Hong Kong back" like it's the only rational, righteous, politically correct thing to do, please do reconsider.
My following point is not against you, but I'm quite sick and tired of people talked like white people are the only race that is capable of racism, suppression, discrimination and wrongdoings, but Chinese and Indians etc are not capable of the same things, or they were not capable of imperialism of their own when China, India etc were empires like Britian back then.
Vellichor wrote: "As a person whose family also comes from a country that was a British colony well into the '40s, I understand where you’re coming from but disagree with you on the whole. I’m going to break down yo..."Plus it's purely and beautifully ironic that you brought up Hong Kong as an example of the Imperial British Empire's wrongdoings and exploitation when after WWII, the population of HK society is made up of migrants and descendants of migrants fleeing the disasters (political persecutions, executions, famines, etc) kicked up by the CCP even since 1949. That includes at least one of my late grandfathers, so do excuse me for feeling personally offended by your comment.
Thank you. Completely agree and if you point this out, people get mad because you are supposed to support openly hating white people too. It was a completely mean spirited book
I wish Id have read this before starting it. I'm all for tolerance and truly want equality, themes that are unfortunately not explored in this book. If your comment was made into a book itself, it would still have more depth than what Robin has. Seriously I don't care about Robin. You killed a guy but because he was white then its ok. We're just so lucky that it was only Britain that did anything bad to anyone ever.Letty has only two character traits- a privileged white girl who always says the wrong thing and even when attempting sympathy or compassion is simply infuriating to her "friends". For example when Letty cannot possibly go more than 2 days without bathing or washing her clothes (that bitch!) yet is also their "prim English rose" before then becoming "that white bitch".
The plot holes are deeper than her character.
The author has drummed into it every five sentences about "this is bad" "this is racism" as though its the most subtle nuanced example ever committed to page.
Every single white character in the book is condescending, brash and awful, whereas every single poc character is brilliant, articulate and always on the right of the argument, especially when killing off the pesky white folk. It feels like the starting passage should have been "I'm not racist I have white friends". Instead the book is one LONG language lesson dressed up as "fantasy" when the one element of Fantasy within the book is barely used and fails to make any real difference to the world its employed in.
I fail to understand the pacing, where the first few years at Oxford fly by with many months passing by in the blink of an eye, and yet for page after page seemingly insignificant points are hashed, rehashed and then rehashed some more. Then lets put a little authors note in there so my audience know what's going on.
Why write a book with so much passion for language (which i really found myself enjoying actually) as a textbook almost in its dryness, yet then assume that your audience only has two brain cells and that one of those is being used on being racist.
Overall at the end of the book I find myself disappointed at an opportunity missed, at a failed promise of potential and no doubt looking forward to reading thousands of "Ha closet racist" alert by the people who loved the book.
I wish I had read this review picking up this book.
Thanks for this review. I'm only 15% into the book and I am already tiring of the heavy handed white people = evil narrative. Now I know it doesn't get any better I can put it down and never pick it up again.
THANK YOU! I was not enjoying this book but felt guilty because it seems densely creative and appropriately "woke." Now I can quit with a clear conscience!
A very good advice, the white people who did horrible things in the past aren't the same group of the white people you might encounter in real life, many of these folks are okay.
Plus, haven't the author been like anti-white or something right from the start? From what I'd heard, the stand-ins for both the white-skinned Westerners and the Japanese in her Poppy War books are like, all evil, with zero redeemable quality blah blah blah.
I hate imperialism too, but I hate any overwhelmingly black-and-white, narrow-minded book just as much.