Mizuki’s review of The Grace of Kings (The Dandelion Dynasty, #1) > Likes and Comments
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Honestly when I read this I was like why is it even labeled “Fantasy” & now it makes much more sense lol
Mary ~Ravager of Tomes~ wrote: "Honestly when I read this I was like why is it even labeled “Fantasy” & now it makes much more sense lol"
I am used to fantasy authors basing their stories on actual historical events and figures , or historical novels basing on actual history adding with made-up characters and events; but I'm so not used to an entire era in Chinese history timeline, a series of key events and a huge crew of Big Name historical figures being renamed and then lifted into a fantasy world and then sold to Western audience who aren't familiar with Chinese history. *shivers*
Well, I have nothing against this book being labeled fantasy (since there are gods as characters and airships flying around), and the writing itself isn't so bad in my eyes when after page 100, the author added more things of his own design into the story.
Thank you! am at page 100 only and have this question lingering in my mind "why did he just literally recite China's pre-Qin and Qin history?". Why didn't he bend it a little (even just like how Lion King has bent Hamlet?) As much as i enjoy his writings, I feel uneasy with such "paying homage"
Jing wrote: "Thank you! am at page 100 only and have this question lingering in my mind "why did he just literally recite China's pre-Qin and Qin history?". Why didn't he bend it a little (even just like how Li..."
I am surprised you like his writing, all I can see is fucking shameless rip-off-ing.
In what galaxy has using historical contexts and references not been appropriate as source material for a secondary world? What an asinine take
Blake wrote: "In what galaxy has using historical contexts and references not been appropriate as source material for a secondary world? What an asinine take"
There is nothing wrong with getting inspiration and influence from historical figures and events, but copy-and-paste an entire period of historical events and historical figures from history book to your own story and pretend these people and events are created by you. It's not okay. I mean, a few similarities could be easily excused, but not when the author got so lazy that he didn't bother to change much of anything.
Lol did you write this sort of diatribe for ASOIAF? It's the same formula, with more gratuitous sexual violence
Astacia wrote: "Lol did you write this sort of diatribe for ASOIAF? It's the same formula, with more gratuitous sexual violence"
I don't read ASOIAF because I'm not interested in it. Plus if you are satisficed with reading rip-off and fanfic disguised as high fantasy novel, so be it.
It’s one thing to write a retelling. It’s quite another thing to write a retelling and act like it was 100% your own original creation.
Whiteraven191 wrote: "It’s one thing to write a retelling. It’s quite another thing to write a retelling and act like it was 100% your own original creation."
That's true. It feels really much like this 'author' is simply counting on the Western audience to be clueless and ill-informed enough to not realizing what he is up to.
Interesting. I’m not Chinese so I’m very unfamiliar with Chinese history, and I’ve only just started this book. Given my ignorance, I might still enjoy it, but I’ll keep your criticism in mind for when I research the content’s background post-reading. That said, I wonder if you’ll enjoy The Poppy War by RF Kuang as a large part of that was based off the Rape of Nanking. Also, I remember watching a YT video of someone who grew up in a Chinese context and is familiar with Chinese history, literature, and popular media, who criticized the 2020 Mulan movie. She said most Chinese literature are fanfics of historical events. Not sure about the accuracy of that statement though.
Katja wrote: "Interesting. I’m not Chinese so I’m very unfamiliar with Chinese history, and I’ve only just started this book. Given my ignorance, I might still enjoy it, but I’ll keep your criticism in mind for ..."
I'd heard about The Poppy War but I still have yet to read it. Personally I am not against authors getting inspired by historical events and historical figures, what I'm against is lazy writing (yes, Ken Liu wouldn't even bother to bend the events and the characters a bit to make it less obvious) and taking readers for fools.
To be fair, The Grace of Kings can be a fun read, but just remember all of the good parts are copies of someone else's writing (e.g. Sima Qian's) , then you will be okay.
She said most Chinese literature are fanfics of historical events.
I don't know which YouTuber you are referring to plus Mulan 2020 deserves a lot of criticism, but her comment seems to reek of over-generalization. Surely there are great deal of old Chinese novels which are actually historical novels (e.g. The Romance of the Three Kingdoms) or at least partly based on historical events, but there are many more which aren't based on history. So, is that person also going to claim, for example, Gu Long's martial art novels are also 'fanfics of historical events'?
Sorry to butt in but I believe the youtuber Katja mentioned is Xiran Jay Zhao (I think her video on Mulan was pretty entertaining/informative) and she mentions that "half of great Chinese literature" is like fanfiction of historical events, not Chinese literature in general, though it's still generalisation I took it as more of a joke like how one might call Dante's Divine Comedy fanfiction. Just wanted to mention since I know the source ^-^
Zala wrote: "Sorry to butt in but I believe the youtuber Katja mentioned is Xiran Jay Zhao (I think her video on Mulan was pretty entertaining/informative) and she mentions that "half of great Chinese literatur..."
I had watched one or two Xiran Jay Zhao videos and then lost interest quickly.
Though I admit she seems to do her homework well and I know she is a Big Name Youtuber now but I pretty much just laughed when she commented on Twitter about how the USA government tried to ban WeChat, and she complained by doing so the USA government is cutting off 'the only tie' the oversea Chinese mainlanders have with their relatives who still live in the mainland. I laughed because oh, cry me a river, where is her moral outcry when Facebook, Gmail, Whatsapp or even Archive of Our Own etc got banned by the CCP? Where is her moral outcry when young Chinese women got jailed up to ten years for writing and publishing yaoi novels?
These oversea Chinese mainlanders like Xiran Jay Zhao really can be a curious bunch of people from time to time.
Back to The Grace of King, I can't stress it enough but ripping off an entire period of Chinese history and then pretend everything is your original idea (or using excuses such as 'based on history') and then sell it to unsuspicious people is just fucking ugly. "half of great Chinese literature is like fanfiction of historical events" is still not an excuse.
PS: by Xiran Jay Zhao's logic, I think I can claim Alexandre Dumas' The Three Musketeers and La Reine Margot etc are all fanfics based on historical events. Dumb.
I'm not really familiar with her outside of the two YouTube videos I've seen but that does sound weird.
And oh yes I definitely agree with your review on that, didn't mean to make it seem like I don't. There's a big difference between being inspired by something and a blatant rip-off.
Haha true, based on that logic you could say that
Zala wrote: "I'm not really familiar with her outside of the two YouTube videos I've seen but that does sound weird.
And oh yes I definitely agree with your review on that, didn't mean to make it seem like I d..."
I know Xiran Jay Zhao is currently living in Canada enjoying whatever freedom and rights her host country is providing, she has an impressive following on twitter and last year she ranted about how the evil USA was trying to strip poor oversea Chinese people from using WeChat to contact their relatives, but she never breathes a word about how it is the CCP who blocks Chinese from using the internet freely and choosing whatever app they want to use in the first place.
After that, I lost interest and didn't bother to check what she has been saying on twitter again.
These oversea Chinese mainlanders like Xiran Jay Zhao really can be a curious bunch of people from time to time. Like I told you.
And oh yes I definitely agree with your review on that, didn't mean to make it seem like I don't. There's a big difference between being inspired by something and a blatant rip-off.
It's okay, I didn't think you are disagreeing with me or anything. Even if you really did not agree with me I am cool with it as long as you and I are both being reasonable about it.
I hadn't realized how close this book was to the original, I'm familiar with the broad outline of Chinese History, but I've never read the original sources. I also hadn't realized that there was an English translation of Condor Heroes. Thanks.
James wrote: "I hadn't realized how close this book was to the original, I'm familiar with the broad outline of Chinese History, but I've never read the original sources. I also hadn't realized that there was an..."
Thanks for the comment!
There are too many people who aren't aware of what Ken Liu had done (what he had done, in my eyes, is taking someone else's hard work away and pressing it off as his own creation), so I take it upon myself to broadcast his lazy writing and copycating.
PS: the wise Saga in Lui's book is called Kon Fuji, which sounds just the same like 'Confucius' in both Cantonese and Mandarin, how lazy!
I also tried to read the second book but then gave up around 100 pages, I can't even muster up enough effort to write a review for it.
The translation of Condor Heroes seems to be a mixed bag (I haven't read it yet), but I do hope you will enjoy it.
PSS: aside from Condor Heroes, you may also try Records of the Grand Historian, it'd worth your while.
This is not even fanfic anymore but plagiarism. Romance of The Three Kingdoms is fanfic, not that thing.
Linh wrote: "This is not even fanfic anymore but plagiarism. Romance of The Three Kingdoms is fanfic, not that thing."
Exactly! Plus Ken Liu never breathes one word *in the book*(not in the Afterword, not in the introduction part) about how he "got inspired" by Chinese history! That totally feels like he cheating and taking the fruit of someone else's hard work and pressing it off as his own creation!
I've neither read the book yet nor studied up on much chinese history, so whether Ken Liu's "influence" is justified or not isn't something I'm entitled to speak on. However, reading your review, I got just a little annoyed at your presumptions about the author. Do you not think it possible that he's just misunderstood what's appropriate to call his own work? Or something else along those lines? Cause I feel it's a bit disrespectful to just label him a malicious plagiarist intent on swindling us small minded readers when it could be something else entirely.
(also, you're kinda intimidating and I'm kind of scared of you, so please be civil. I may very well be wrong here)
First, thank you for your comment. If you are capable of being civil, then of course I'm also capable of being civil with you.
I got just a little annoyed at your presumptions about the author.
Since we are now dealing with a book you haven't yet read and a historical era you do not seem to be familiar with, I am not sure how to explain to you how bad Ken Liu's decision of copying and pasting an entire era of historical events into his own 'novel' and claiming these are his own creation actually is.
I can only repeat myself here: I fully understand authors getting inspired by historical events and basing their own fictional characters on historical figures, but copying and pasting an entire historical era and copying all the key historical figures, it is just cheating. It's just lazy writing, which I find such behavior difficult to stomach.
Elessar wrote: "Do you not think it possible that he's just misunderstood what's appropriate to call his own work? Or something else along those lines?."
My goodness, this guy is a professional author with plenty of books under his belt and he is making money out of each of those books, the excuse of 'misunderstanding' and 'I don't know when and how to give credit' should go straight out of the window since day 1.
Look, my review is just a tiny drop of water in a sea of reviews that sing Ken Liu's praises (and I'm not saying these positive reviews are wrong) , plus I can't read Ken Liu's mind to know what is his real intention, but to a reader who have some regular understanding of Chinese history, it's easy to tell this novel of his is just a copy-and-paste of a history book, his laziness is really obvious and I found it to be highly disrespectful to the readers.
PS: I found out this book had been translated to Chinese in the mainland China. On a popular platform, the readers over there are just as disappointed by Ken Liu's copying and pasting Chinese history (especially the writing of Sima Qian) and pretending he wrote his own story: https://book.douban.com/subject/27120...
Some more reviews from mainland China: https://weread.qq.com/web/reader/7573...
If you hated this book don’t read The Poppy War. It is a fanfiction of Mao’s story, and badly done. I have very scarce knowledge of Mao’s ascension to power, but even I could predict exactly what would happen because RF Kuang didn’t bother to change anything from history. Yikes.
Virginja ↢ 99% imp wrote: "If you hated this book don’t read The Poppy War. It is a fanfiction of Mao’s story, and badly done. I have very scarce knowledge of Mao’s ascension to power, but even I could predict exactly what w..."
Why, why, why, just why? I'd been looking forward to read this series.
I mean, are people really that lazy to the point of copying historical events and historical figures and then selling the copycat story to audience who aren't familiar with said history?
Mizuki wrote: "First, thank you for your comment. If you are capable of being civil, then of course I'm also capable of being civil with you.
I got just a little annoyed at your presumptions about the author.
..."
I see. I'll admit I may have been just a touch naive, it's just that authorial intent can be a bit of a touchy subject to me. I also couldn't find much mention of it online. But given I can only read english, I was probably looking in the wrong place. I guess I'll just have to read the book and study history to reach my own conclusions.
Thanks for sharing! This book is high on my tbr list because I like Liu's short stories, but it might need to move down now. I'm from China originally and most likely won't enjoy reading what you described.
Some thoughts on The Poppy War though, since it's been brought up a few times in the comments: I'm currently reading the first book and only 40% through, so my opinion is based on limited information and subject to change, but so far I wouldn't call it a copy-paste fanfic. I've heard the main character is based on Mao and I can imagine that the eventual turnout of events will end up parallel to history, but so far (again, I won't pretend that I know how the rest of the story will go) her life at the academy has almost nothing in common with Mao. I'd definitely call the worldbuilding of this book lazy because it draws too directly from historical sources (people study Mengzi and Sunzi, one of their simulated battle strategies is the "borrowing of arrows" by Zhuge Liang, etc.), which bothers me a bit, but the plot itself doesn't seem to be an issue. Just thought I'd share that if you are still interested in picking it up.
@Elessar:
It's important to come to your own conclusion, but to those readers from mainland China who have some regular knowledge on Chinese history, here are their conclusions, and I'd used Google Translate to translate them:
Chene wrote: "Thanks for sharing! This book is high on my tbr list because I like Liu's short stories, but it might need to move down now. I'm from China originally and most likely won't enjoy reading what you d..."
It's late so I can only manage a short reply:
I know next to nothing about the context of this Poppy War series, but the title 'The Poppy War' always makes me feel odd because when I look at the word 'Poppy' all I can think of is a name for female or a pet name. That's part of the reason why I'm not very interested in reading the story.
but so far I wouldn't call it a copy-paste fanfic.
It's good to know, a MC based on Mao does sound interesting enough. So maybe I will still try this series later.
Poppy War = Opium War? If so, the word Poppy, the flower used to make opium, is not cute. I'm not sure if that was the author's intent.
It was an OK first novel with lot's of flaws and I don't plan to read other books in the series.
James wrote: "Poppy War = Opium War? If so, the word Poppy, the flower used to make opium, is not cute. I'm not sure if that was the author's intent.
It was an OK first novel with lot's of flaws and I don't pla..."
It looks like you are right about Poppy War = Opium War! (silly me for not checking Google Translate first) But........is it a bit lazy to named your fantasy novel after a battle from actual history like this?
Elessar wrote: "I also couldn't find much mention of it online.."
The Chu-Han Contention era is far less well known outside of Asia than the other more famous Chinese dynasties like the Three Kingdoms era or the Tang Dynasty or the Qing Dynasty. So I'm not surprised hardly anyone had mentioned it on Goodreads, I myself only managed to find three or four reviews which mention the problems.
I guess I'll just have to read the book and study history to reach my own conclusions.
Learning more is always great but you don't have to pressure yourself too much, all of the information I mentioned in this review is pretty much Chinese History 101 level of information. That's why I found Ken Liu being so lazy to a point he didn't bother to change some of the details to make his copycating a bit less obvious to be so outrageous. It feels like he really does believe the English speaking audience is really so ill-informed.
"It looks like you are right about Poppy War = Opium War! (silly me for not checking Google Translate first) But........is it a bit lazy to named your fantasy novel after a battle from actual history like this? "
I don't think most Americans would know this, I'm weird, I enjoy history. I'm not sure that its lazy.
James wrote: ""It looks like you are right about Poppy War = Opium War! (silly me for not checking Google Translate first) But........is it a bit lazy to named your fantasy novel after a battle from actual histo..."
Okay.
... and to think I heard so many praises for this book... I know a little bit about Xiang Yu and Liu Bang, but not to the extent of the details. I would've missed the copying if I read this.
It would've been fine if he said "this is a fantasy retelling of Chinese history". For example, when James Clavell wrote his Asia novels, he admitted to writing his novels kinda copy paste from history (wonky portrayals aside, of course).
This was the reason why I felt like I was still reading my Ancient Chinese History/Literature manual to pass an exam. Thanks for this review, this book made me unconfortable for many reasons and I had the feeling he was copy-pasting Chinese history, but I could not remember what or how. It's frustrating, it could have been such a good book -.-
I will try your suggestions for more original retelling of Chinese History. Thanks!
Renoir wrote: ".It would've been fine if he said "this is a fantasy retelling of Chinese history". For example, when James Clavell wrote his Asia novels, he admitted to writing his novels kinda copy paste from history"
Although copy-and-paste history is still icky in my opinion, but I would have been less offended if Liu really admitted as much, yet I haven't seen any evidence of him having this tiny level of honesty. *sighs*
ChiaraZ wrote: "I will try your suggestions for more original retelling of Chinese History. Thanks!"
I'm glad to know you will try.
From what I can see Ken Liu is entirely capable of writing his own stories, but I guess with years of success and praises, it is easy for an author to fall for the easy way out.
Mizuki wrote: "Renoir wrote: ".It would've been fine if he said "this is a fantasy retelling of Chinese history". For example, when James Clavell wrote his Asia novels, he admitted to writing his novels kinda cop..."
Oh well, I mean, I just think if they (Liu and/or the publisher) straight out marketed the book as "fantasy version of actual history", then it's kind of to be expected that real life events will be mentioned in the book. It just will have fantasy elements like magic, gods, or airships.
Renoir wrote: "Mizuki wrote: "Renoir wrote: ".It would've been fine if he said "this is a fantasy retelling of Chinese history". For example, when James Clavell wrote his Asia novels, he admitted to writing his n..."
I agree with you, but in mainland China, no one respects copyright, there are way too many 'authors' just copy and paste someone else's creation, change some of the details and then sell the ripoff to the market, and for too many times these people get away with no punishment. *shrugs*
This reads like a conspiracy theory. Citation needed please. I just can't take any of this seriously without it. Such hyped critisism with no supporting evidence?
Tyler wrote: "This reads like a conspiracy theory. Citation needed please. I just can't take any of this seriously without it. Such hyped critisism with no supporting evidence?"
*sighs* Tyler, I don't know what citation I can prove to you, if you would just be so kind to bother yourself to read some Chinese History 101 books, or just simply click the Wiki links in my review, hopefully you will see what I mean.
I don't really care whether you think my review reads like a conspiracy theory or not. But I can provide some other readers from mainland China and their reactions to this so-called novel:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
The link to the original post, you can read them freely if you would only be so kind to use Google Translate or other translation apps: https://book.douban.com/subject/27120...
Excerpts from the novel and historical sources are what you need to include. You need proof that this author is literally just rewriting history (not okay) instead of using it as inspiration for a story (perfectly fine and commonplace).
It did seem to be much inspired by RL events. There is a trend, Poppy War does something similar, probably people will get used in time and will become more aware.
Tyler wrote: "Excerpts from the novel and historical sources are what you need to include.
Just for the record, I don't 'need' to include anything in my own reviews, I write what I feel like writing.
You need proof that this author is literally just rewriting history (not okay) instead of using it as inspiration for a story (perfectly fine and commonplace)
I actually agree with your point here, and from what I know about Chinese history (which is just high school to university level), what Liu had done is the former not the latter.
If I really were to include excerpts in this review, I'll have to start from page 1 and then including every single key event in the book (because none of them, except for the mentions of airships and gods and the islands, are original), the workload will be endless and to be very, very honest, I'm not getting any younger.
Using 20 minutes to reply to your comment is nice, but actually borrowing this book again, quoting and summarizing all of the key events (and I do mean all of them) in the books in order to explain to you why this book qualifies as a copy-and-paste instead of a 'history inspired', not so much.
Mihai wrote: "It did seem to be much inspired by RL events. There is a trend, Poppy War does something similar, probably people will get used in time and will become more aware."
I had heard about The Poppy War and supposedly it's, again, a blow-by-blow copy and paste of the Opium War (and the Sino-Japanese War?) events, to be fair I haven't read this series so I can't tell if it is really the case. But now I don't think I want to read these books.
Hell, I had had enough history textbooks in my school years, I don't need more.
Mizuki wrote: "Mihai wrote: "It did seem to be much inspired by RL events. There is a trend, Poppy War does something similar, probably people will get used in time and will become more aware."
I had heard about..."
A mixture between all, but with a female protagonist and some chained gods as magic source. Is more or less BR between mages, with politics and history as background.
But is lousy writing and too easy to see where it came from. The ending has a twist but it had to be a trilogy, for some reason and there are too many filler events.
Mihai wrote: "But is lousy writing and too easy to see where it came from. The ending has a twist but it had to be a trilogy, for some reason and there are too many filler events."
That's also what I have against The Grace of Kings: too easy to see where the borrowed materials came from.
I read spoilers and supposedly the heroine of the Poppy War ends up becoming a dictator and mass killer herself. Well, does it really still count as a shocking plot twist these days?
Mizuki wrote: "Mihai wrote: "But is lousy writing and too easy to see where it came from. The ending has a twist but it had to be a trilogy, for some reason and there are too many filler events."
That's also wha..."
There is a twist to that ending of the trilogy. She wins the tournament. Is not really a war, because the mages are so strong that they destroy everything, then she understands that the power is bad and has a change of mind. They are all mass murderers, but this is explained by training, circumstances and revenge.
But is lousy in the way that the main storylines follow RL. There is a civil war in `China` between warlords, also Western powers, `Japan` gets nuked, even `Taiwan` has a role. Is not just the setting, is almost verbatim. Too easy to guess the narrative.
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Mary ~Ravager of Tomes~
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Aug 11, 2018 08:12AM
Honestly when I read this I was like why is it even labeled “Fantasy” & now it makes much more sense lol
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Mary ~Ravager of Tomes~ wrote: "Honestly when I read this I was like why is it even labeled “Fantasy” & now it makes much more sense lol"I am used to fantasy authors basing their stories on actual historical events and figures , or historical novels basing on actual history adding with made-up characters and events; but I'm so not used to an entire era in Chinese history timeline, a series of key events and a huge crew of Big Name historical figures being renamed and then lifted into a fantasy world and then sold to Western audience who aren't familiar with Chinese history. *shivers*
Well, I have nothing against this book being labeled fantasy (since there are gods as characters and airships flying around), and the writing itself isn't so bad in my eyes when after page 100, the author added more things of his own design into the story.
Thank you! am at page 100 only and have this question lingering in my mind "why did he just literally recite China's pre-Qin and Qin history?". Why didn't he bend it a little (even just like how Lion King has bent Hamlet?) As much as i enjoy his writings, I feel uneasy with such "paying homage"
Jing wrote: "Thank you! am at page 100 only and have this question lingering in my mind "why did he just literally recite China's pre-Qin and Qin history?". Why didn't he bend it a little (even just like how Li..."I am surprised you like his writing, all I can see is fucking shameless rip-off-ing.
In what galaxy has using historical contexts and references not been appropriate as source material for a secondary world? What an asinine take
Blake wrote: "In what galaxy has using historical contexts and references not been appropriate as source material for a secondary world? What an asinine take"There is nothing wrong with getting inspiration and influence from historical figures and events, but copy-and-paste an entire period of historical events and historical figures from history book to your own story and pretend these people and events are created by you. It's not okay. I mean, a few similarities could be easily excused, but not when the author got so lazy that he didn't bother to change much of anything.
Lol did you write this sort of diatribe for ASOIAF? It's the same formula, with more gratuitous sexual violence
Astacia wrote: "Lol did you write this sort of diatribe for ASOIAF? It's the same formula, with more gratuitous sexual violence"I don't read ASOIAF because I'm not interested in it. Plus if you are satisficed with reading rip-off and fanfic disguised as high fantasy novel, so be it.
It’s one thing to write a retelling. It’s quite another thing to write a retelling and act like it was 100% your own original creation.
Whiteraven191 wrote: "It’s one thing to write a retelling. It’s quite another thing to write a retelling and act like it was 100% your own original creation."That's true. It feels really much like this 'author' is simply counting on the Western audience to be clueless and ill-informed enough to not realizing what he is up to.
Interesting. I’m not Chinese so I’m very unfamiliar with Chinese history, and I’ve only just started this book. Given my ignorance, I might still enjoy it, but I’ll keep your criticism in mind for when I research the content’s background post-reading. That said, I wonder if you’ll enjoy The Poppy War by RF Kuang as a large part of that was based off the Rape of Nanking. Also, I remember watching a YT video of someone who grew up in a Chinese context and is familiar with Chinese history, literature, and popular media, who criticized the 2020 Mulan movie. She said most Chinese literature are fanfics of historical events. Not sure about the accuracy of that statement though.
Katja wrote: "Interesting. I’m not Chinese so I’m very unfamiliar with Chinese history, and I’ve only just started this book. Given my ignorance, I might still enjoy it, but I’ll keep your criticism in mind for ..."I'd heard about The Poppy War but I still have yet to read it. Personally I am not against authors getting inspired by historical events and historical figures, what I'm against is lazy writing (yes, Ken Liu wouldn't even bother to bend the events and the characters a bit to make it less obvious) and taking readers for fools.
To be fair, The Grace of Kings can be a fun read, but just remember all of the good parts are copies of someone else's writing (e.g. Sima Qian's) , then you will be okay.
She said most Chinese literature are fanfics of historical events.
I don't know which YouTuber you are referring to plus Mulan 2020 deserves a lot of criticism, but her comment seems to reek of over-generalization. Surely there are great deal of old Chinese novels which are actually historical novels (e.g. The Romance of the Three Kingdoms) or at least partly based on historical events, but there are many more which aren't based on history. So, is that person also going to claim, for example, Gu Long's martial art novels are also 'fanfics of historical events'?
Sorry to butt in but I believe the youtuber Katja mentioned is Xiran Jay Zhao (I think her video on Mulan was pretty entertaining/informative) and she mentions that "half of great Chinese literature" is like fanfiction of historical events, not Chinese literature in general, though it's still generalisation I took it as more of a joke like how one might call Dante's Divine Comedy fanfiction. Just wanted to mention since I know the source ^-^
Zala wrote: "Sorry to butt in but I believe the youtuber Katja mentioned is Xiran Jay Zhao (I think her video on Mulan was pretty entertaining/informative) and she mentions that "half of great Chinese literatur..."I had watched one or two Xiran Jay Zhao videos and then lost interest quickly.
Though I admit she seems to do her homework well and I know she is a Big Name Youtuber now but I pretty much just laughed when she commented on Twitter about how the USA government tried to ban WeChat, and she complained by doing so the USA government is cutting off 'the only tie' the oversea Chinese mainlanders have with their relatives who still live in the mainland. I laughed because oh, cry me a river, where is her moral outcry when Facebook, Gmail, Whatsapp or even Archive of Our Own etc got banned by the CCP? Where is her moral outcry when young Chinese women got jailed up to ten years for writing and publishing yaoi novels?
These oversea Chinese mainlanders like Xiran Jay Zhao really can be a curious bunch of people from time to time.
Back to The Grace of King, I can't stress it enough but ripping off an entire period of Chinese history and then pretend everything is your original idea (or using excuses such as 'based on history') and then sell it to unsuspicious people is just fucking ugly. "half of great Chinese literature is like fanfiction of historical events" is still not an excuse.
PS: by Xiran Jay Zhao's logic, I think I can claim Alexandre Dumas' The Three Musketeers and La Reine Margot etc are all fanfics based on historical events. Dumb.
I'm not really familiar with her outside of the two YouTube videos I've seen but that does sound weird.And oh yes I definitely agree with your review on that, didn't mean to make it seem like I don't. There's a big difference between being inspired by something and a blatant rip-off.
Haha true, based on that logic you could say that
Zala wrote: "I'm not really familiar with her outside of the two YouTube videos I've seen but that does sound weird.And oh yes I definitely agree with your review on that, didn't mean to make it seem like I d..."
I know Xiran Jay Zhao is currently living in Canada enjoying whatever freedom and rights her host country is providing, she has an impressive following on twitter and last year she ranted about how the evil USA was trying to strip poor oversea Chinese people from using WeChat to contact their relatives, but she never breathes a word about how it is the CCP who blocks Chinese from using the internet freely and choosing whatever app they want to use in the first place.
After that, I lost interest and didn't bother to check what she has been saying on twitter again.
These oversea Chinese mainlanders like Xiran Jay Zhao really can be a curious bunch of people from time to time. Like I told you.
And oh yes I definitely agree with your review on that, didn't mean to make it seem like I don't. There's a big difference between being inspired by something and a blatant rip-off.
It's okay, I didn't think you are disagreeing with me or anything. Even if you really did not agree with me I am cool with it as long as you and I are both being reasonable about it.
I hadn't realized how close this book was to the original, I'm familiar with the broad outline of Chinese History, but I've never read the original sources. I also hadn't realized that there was an English translation of Condor Heroes. Thanks.
James wrote: "I hadn't realized how close this book was to the original, I'm familiar with the broad outline of Chinese History, but I've never read the original sources. I also hadn't realized that there was an..."Thanks for the comment!
There are too many people who aren't aware of what Ken Liu had done (what he had done, in my eyes, is taking someone else's hard work away and pressing it off as his own creation), so I take it upon myself to broadcast his lazy writing and copycating.
PS: the wise Saga in Lui's book is called Kon Fuji, which sounds just the same like 'Confucius' in both Cantonese and Mandarin, how lazy!
I also tried to read the second book but then gave up around 100 pages, I can't even muster up enough effort to write a review for it.
The translation of Condor Heroes seems to be a mixed bag (I haven't read it yet), but I do hope you will enjoy it.
PSS: aside from Condor Heroes, you may also try Records of the Grand Historian, it'd worth your while.
This is not even fanfic anymore but plagiarism. Romance of The Three Kingdoms is fanfic, not that thing.
Linh wrote: "This is not even fanfic anymore but plagiarism. Romance of The Three Kingdoms is fanfic, not that thing."Exactly! Plus Ken Liu never breathes one word *in the book*(not in the Afterword, not in the introduction part) about how he "got inspired" by Chinese history! That totally feels like he cheating and taking the fruit of someone else's hard work and pressing it off as his own creation!
I've neither read the book yet nor studied up on much chinese history, so whether Ken Liu's "influence" is justified or not isn't something I'm entitled to speak on. However, reading your review, I got just a little annoyed at your presumptions about the author. Do you not think it possible that he's just misunderstood what's appropriate to call his own work? Or something else along those lines? Cause I feel it's a bit disrespectful to just label him a malicious plagiarist intent on swindling us small minded readers when it could be something else entirely.(also, you're kinda intimidating and I'm kind of scared of you, so please be civil. I may very well be wrong here)
First, thank you for your comment. If you are capable of being civil, then of course I'm also capable of being civil with you.I got just a little annoyed at your presumptions about the author.
Since we are now dealing with a book you haven't yet read and a historical era you do not seem to be familiar with, I am not sure how to explain to you how bad Ken Liu's decision of copying and pasting an entire era of historical events into his own 'novel' and claiming these are his own creation actually is.
I can only repeat myself here: I fully understand authors getting inspired by historical events and basing their own fictional characters on historical figures, but copying and pasting an entire historical era and copying all the key historical figures, it is just cheating. It's just lazy writing, which I find such behavior difficult to stomach.
Elessar wrote: "Do you not think it possible that he's just misunderstood what's appropriate to call his own work? Or something else along those lines?."
My goodness, this guy is a professional author with plenty of books under his belt and he is making money out of each of those books, the excuse of 'misunderstanding' and 'I don't know when and how to give credit' should go straight out of the window since day 1.
Look, my review is just a tiny drop of water in a sea of reviews that sing Ken Liu's praises (and I'm not saying these positive reviews are wrong) , plus I can't read Ken Liu's mind to know what is his real intention, but to a reader who have some regular understanding of Chinese history, it's easy to tell this novel of his is just a copy-and-paste of a history book, his laziness is really obvious and I found it to be highly disrespectful to the readers.
PS: I found out this book had been translated to Chinese in the mainland China. On a popular platform, the readers over there are just as disappointed by Ken Liu's copying and pasting Chinese history (especially the writing of Sima Qian) and pretending he wrote his own story: https://book.douban.com/subject/27120...
Some more reviews from mainland China: https://weread.qq.com/web/reader/7573...
If you hated this book don’t read The Poppy War. It is a fanfiction of Mao’s story, and badly done. I have very scarce knowledge of Mao’s ascension to power, but even I could predict exactly what would happen because RF Kuang didn’t bother to change anything from history. Yikes.
Virginja ↢ 99% imp wrote: "If you hated this book don’t read The Poppy War. It is a fanfiction of Mao’s story, and badly done. I have very scarce knowledge of Mao’s ascension to power, but even I could predict exactly what w..."Why, why, why, just why? I'd been looking forward to read this series.
I mean, are people really that lazy to the point of copying historical events and historical figures and then selling the copycat story to audience who aren't familiar with said history?
Mizuki wrote: "First, thank you for your comment. If you are capable of being civil, then of course I'm also capable of being civil with you.I got just a little annoyed at your presumptions about the author.
..."
I see. I'll admit I may have been just a touch naive, it's just that authorial intent can be a bit of a touchy subject to me. I also couldn't find much mention of it online. But given I can only read english, I was probably looking in the wrong place. I guess I'll just have to read the book and study history to reach my own conclusions.
Thanks for sharing! This book is high on my tbr list because I like Liu's short stories, but it might need to move down now. I'm from China originally and most likely won't enjoy reading what you described.Some thoughts on The Poppy War though, since it's been brought up a few times in the comments: I'm currently reading the first book and only 40% through, so my opinion is based on limited information and subject to change, but so far I wouldn't call it a copy-paste fanfic. I've heard the main character is based on Mao and I can imagine that the eventual turnout of events will end up parallel to history, but so far (again, I won't pretend that I know how the rest of the story will go) her life at the academy has almost nothing in common with Mao. I'd definitely call the worldbuilding of this book lazy because it draws too directly from historical sources (people study Mengzi and Sunzi, one of their simulated battle strategies is the "borrowing of arrows" by Zhuge Liang, etc.), which bothers me a bit, but the plot itself doesn't seem to be an issue. Just thought I'd share that if you are still interested in picking it up.
@Elessar:It's important to come to your own conclusion, but to those readers from mainland China who have some regular knowledge on Chinese history, here are their conclusions, and I'd used Google Translate to translate them:
eastfire: "几乎完全照抄楚汉争霸的历史。相比借鉴历史的水平，还是盖伊·加夫里尔·凯高明些。 满屏幕的拗口名字，看着难受。 另外，广告说什么是丝绸朋克，丝绸在哪里？知道什么是朋克吗？"
"Almost completely copied the history of Chu and Han contending for hegemony. Compared to the level of borrowing from history, Guy Gavril Kay is better. The slurred names all looked uncomfortable. In addition, what does the advertisement say it is 'silk punk' but where is the silk? Do these people know what punk is?"
书鬼:"历史没版权就能改了人名照搬情节？介绍宣传里只字不提史记、楚汉之争等关键词怎么回事儿？一部不用看就知道情节和结局的奇幻作品其实卖的是设定？设定哪儿比主机游戏设定更强？今天这个改编三国出“三叶草王朝”，明天那个改编李世民出“曼陀罗王朝”，都号称原创奇幻史诗，奇幻文学界岂不是乱了套了？"
"History has no copyright so you can change the names and copy the plots freely? Why didn't the introduction propaganda mention a word about Record of the Grand Historian and the Chu-Han Contention, etc.?
What's with a fantasy book that you can know the plot and ending before you turn the last page? Where is the setting stronger than the console game setting? Today you can copy the history of the Three Kingdoms and then dub it "The Clover Dynasty", and tomorrow you can copy Li Shimin's story and dub it " The Mandala Dynasty" and then sell it as an original fantasy epic? Isn't the fantasy literature world messed up?"
柒二Dr.Tobe : "太史公笔下楚汉争霸的故事，套上西方神话的外衣，和拗口的西式人名地名，少少的情节改动也仿佛是为了贴合山寨……“丝绸朋克”意义在哪儿，跨文化传播么？"
"The Grand Historian's tale of contending for hegemony between the Chu and Han dynasties dressed with Western mythology, as well as slurred Western names and places; with just a few plot changes for cover-up...Where is the meaning of "silk punk", does it really count as a 'cross culture' thing?"
飞天神猪维维:"开创科幻新流派？开创同人新流派还差不多，开创翻译新流派也OK，把历史传记翻译成欧美奇幻就可以当新书出啦，最佳翻译奖没跑了，所以我把文言文小说翻译成白话文可以说是我的新书吗？？？司马迁的棺材板怕要压不住了"
"Create a new genre of science fiction? Writing a fanfic is more likely. It's also OK to say this is a new genre of translation. So now you can translate history into English, duding it 'fantasy' and then you get your new book published, the Best Translation Award is already yours. so I can translate classical Chinese novels into vernacular and then it becomes an original novel written by me? ? ? ? Sima Qian must be turning in his grave."
Chene wrote: "Thanks for sharing! This book is high on my tbr list because I like Liu's short stories, but it might need to move down now. I'm from China originally and most likely won't enjoy reading what you d..."It's late so I can only manage a short reply:
I know next to nothing about the context of this Poppy War series, but the title 'The Poppy War' always makes me feel odd because when I look at the word 'Poppy' all I can think of is a name for female or a pet name. That's part of the reason why I'm not very interested in reading the story.
but so far I wouldn't call it a copy-paste fanfic.
It's good to know, a MC based on Mao does sound interesting enough. So maybe I will still try this series later.
Poppy War = Opium War? If so, the word Poppy, the flower used to make opium, is not cute. I'm not sure if that was the author's intent.It was an OK first novel with lot's of flaws and I don't plan to read other books in the series.
James wrote: "Poppy War = Opium War? If so, the word Poppy, the flower used to make opium, is not cute. I'm not sure if that was the author's intent.It was an OK first novel with lot's of flaws and I don't pla..."
It looks like you are right about Poppy War = Opium War! (silly me for not checking Google Translate first) But........is it a bit lazy to named your fantasy novel after a battle from actual history like this?
Elessar wrote: "I also couldn't find much mention of it online.."The Chu-Han Contention era is far less well known outside of Asia than the other more famous Chinese dynasties like the Three Kingdoms era or the Tang Dynasty or the Qing Dynasty. So I'm not surprised hardly anyone had mentioned it on Goodreads, I myself only managed to find three or four reviews which mention the problems.
I guess I'll just have to read the book and study history to reach my own conclusions.
Learning more is always great but you don't have to pressure yourself too much, all of the information I mentioned in this review is pretty much Chinese History 101 level of information. That's why I found Ken Liu being so lazy to a point he didn't bother to change some of the details to make his copycating a bit less obvious to be so outrageous. It feels like he really does believe the English speaking audience is really so ill-informed.
"It looks like you are right about Poppy War = Opium War! (silly me for not checking Google Translate first) But........is it a bit lazy to named your fantasy novel after a battle from actual history like this? "I don't think most Americans would know this, I'm weird, I enjoy history. I'm not sure that its lazy.
James wrote: ""It looks like you are right about Poppy War = Opium War! (silly me for not checking Google Translate first) But........is it a bit lazy to named your fantasy novel after a battle from actual histo..."Okay.
... and to think I heard so many praises for this book... I know a little bit about Xiang Yu and Liu Bang, but not to the extent of the details. I would've missed the copying if I read this. It would've been fine if he said "this is a fantasy retelling of Chinese history". For example, when James Clavell wrote his Asia novels, he admitted to writing his novels kinda copy paste from history (wonky portrayals aside, of course).
This was the reason why I felt like I was still reading my Ancient Chinese History/Literature manual to pass an exam. Thanks for this review, this book made me unconfortable for many reasons and I had the feeling he was copy-pasting Chinese history, but I could not remember what or how. It's frustrating, it could have been such a good book -.- I will try your suggestions for more original retelling of Chinese History. Thanks!
Renoir wrote: ".It would've been fine if he said "this is a fantasy retelling of Chinese history". For example, when James Clavell wrote his Asia novels, he admitted to writing his novels kinda copy paste from history"Although copy-and-paste history is still icky in my opinion, but I would have been less offended if Liu really admitted as much, yet I haven't seen any evidence of him having this tiny level of honesty. *sighs*
ChiaraZ wrote: "I will try your suggestions for more original retelling of Chinese History. Thanks!"I'm glad to know you will try.
From what I can see Ken Liu is entirely capable of writing his own stories, but I guess with years of success and praises, it is easy for an author to fall for the easy way out.
Mizuki wrote: "Renoir wrote: ".It would've been fine if he said "this is a fantasy retelling of Chinese history". For example, when James Clavell wrote his Asia novels, he admitted to writing his novels kinda cop..."Oh well, I mean, I just think if they (Liu and/or the publisher) straight out marketed the book as "fantasy version of actual history", then it's kind of to be expected that real life events will be mentioned in the book. It just will have fantasy elements like magic, gods, or airships.
Renoir wrote: "Mizuki wrote: "Renoir wrote: ".It would've been fine if he said "this is a fantasy retelling of Chinese history". For example, when James Clavell wrote his Asia novels, he admitted to writing his n..."I agree with you, but in mainland China, no one respects copyright, there are way too many 'authors' just copy and paste someone else's creation, change some of the details and then sell the ripoff to the market, and for too many times these people get away with no punishment. *shrugs*
This reads like a conspiracy theory. Citation needed please. I just can't take any of this seriously without it. Such hyped critisism with no supporting evidence?
Tyler wrote: "This reads like a conspiracy theory. Citation needed please. I just can't take any of this seriously without it. Such hyped critisism with no supporting evidence?"*sighs* Tyler, I don't know what citation I can prove to you, if you would just be so kind to bother yourself to read some Chinese History 101 books, or just simply click the Wiki links in my review, hopefully you will see what I mean.
I don't really care whether you think my review reads like a conspiracy theory or not. But I can provide some other readers from mainland China and their reactions to this so-called novel:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
The link to the original post, you can read them freely if you would only be so kind to use Google Translate or other translation apps: https://book.douban.com/subject/27120...
Excerpts from the novel and historical sources are what you need to include. You need proof that this author is literally just rewriting history (not okay) instead of using it as inspiration for a story (perfectly fine and commonplace).
It did seem to be much inspired by RL events. There is a trend, Poppy War does something similar, probably people will get used in time and will become more aware.
Tyler wrote: "Excerpts from the novel and historical sources are what you need to include. Just for the record, I don't 'need' to include anything in my own reviews, I write what I feel like writing.
You need proof that this author is literally just rewriting history (not okay) instead of using it as inspiration for a story (perfectly fine and commonplace)
I actually agree with your point here, and from what I know about Chinese history (which is just high school to university level), what Liu had done is the former not the latter.
If I really were to include excerpts in this review, I'll have to start from page 1 and then including every single key event in the book (because none of them, except for the mentions of airships and gods and the islands, are original), the workload will be endless and to be very, very honest, I'm not getting any younger.
Using 20 minutes to reply to your comment is nice, but actually borrowing this book again, quoting and summarizing all of the key events (and I do mean all of them) in the books in order to explain to you why this book qualifies as a copy-and-paste instead of a 'history inspired', not so much.
Mihai wrote: "It did seem to be much inspired by RL events. There is a trend, Poppy War does something similar, probably people will get used in time and will become more aware."I had heard about The Poppy War and supposedly it's, again, a blow-by-blow copy and paste of the Opium War (and the Sino-Japanese War?) events, to be fair I haven't read this series so I can't tell if it is really the case. But now I don't think I want to read these books.
Hell, I had had enough history textbooks in my school years, I don't need more.
Mizuki wrote: "Mihai wrote: "It did seem to be much inspired by RL events. There is a trend, Poppy War does something similar, probably people will get used in time and will become more aware."I had heard about..."
A mixture between all, but with a female protagonist and some chained gods as magic source. Is more or less BR between mages, with politics and history as background.
But is lousy writing and too easy to see where it came from. The ending has a twist but it had to be a trilogy, for some reason and there are too many filler events.
Mihai wrote: "But is lousy writing and too easy to see where it came from. The ending has a twist but it had to be a trilogy, for some reason and there are too many filler events."That's also what I have against The Grace of Kings: too easy to see where the borrowed materials came from.
I read spoilers and supposedly the heroine of the Poppy War ends up becoming a dictator and mass killer herself. Well, does it really still count as a shocking plot twist these days?
Mizuki wrote: "Mihai wrote: "But is lousy writing and too easy to see where it came from. The ending has a twist but it had to be a trilogy, for some reason and there are too many filler events."That's also wha..."
There is a twist to that ending of the trilogy. She wins the tournament. Is not really a war, because the mages are so strong that they destroy everything, then she understands that the power is bad and has a change of mind. They are all mass murderers, but this is explained by training, circumstances and revenge.
But is lousy in the way that the main storylines follow RL. There is a civil war in `China` between warlords, also Western powers, `Japan` gets nuked, even `Taiwan` has a role. Is not just the setting, is almost verbatim. Too easy to guess the narrative.
