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Nicely put Ray, and what you've said resonates with something Steinbeck himself said about OMM--that the story symbolizes the fundamental tension between man and woman. Women carry with them the potential to cause trouble among men who would otherwise be in harmony, and men, in pursuing the softness (symbolizing love) of women, lose control over their animal urges, leading to sometimes painful consequences.
Men in prison don't have any contact with women and they generally don't live in harmony. And I think I read a study that said that boys engage in bullying more in all-boys schools than in mixed schools. So I don't think there is a correlation there, although certainly in this book the woman caused some problems!
Oh in my experience women are nicer to each other around men too, but I've never read anything to support that.
Rebecca wrote: "Men in prison don't have any contact with women and they generally don't live in harmony. And I think I read a study that said that boys engage in bullying more in all-boys schools than in mixed sc..."
Men in prison is far from representative of the general population. Much the opposite, as prisons have a high concentration of sociopaths and social deviates.
The operative word is "potential." I didn't say it was the norm for women to make trouble. Several places in the story, warnings are issued to Lennie about the "trouble" Curley's wife could cause, and despite these repeated warnings, the trouble manifests, destroying the men's dreams of happiness. Even after she's dead, Candy indicts her, standing over her body in the barn: "You God damn tramp,...You done it, didn't you? I s'pose you're glad. Ever'body knowed you'd mess things up. You wasn't no good. You ain't no good now, you lousy tart."
Here's another relevant quote about Curley's wife: "George sighed. 'You give me a good whore house every time,' he said. 'A guy can go in an' get drunk and get ever'thing outta his system all at once, an' no messes. And he knows how much it's gonna set him back. These here jail baits is just set on the trigger of the hoosegow.'"
Curley's wife is a certain kind of woman; so she can't represent all women except to the extent that a woman's insecurities could drive her past the boundaries of ethical behavior. (All women have this potential, the as same men, when survival is at stake, the infamous Donner Party's cannibalism being an example.)
Scarlet O'Hara is an example of a woman driven to unethical behavior by desperate circumstances.
I suppose high-schools have a high concentration of sociopaths and social deviants as well?
I don't see how anything that happened was Curley's wife's fault. She was lonely and her husband was a twad. She had no choice but to marry him and nothing that could be called a life with him, she was a sort of a slave, she was probably better off dead.
I don't think it was any more her fault what happened to her than it was the fault of the puppy. I don't think it could be said she had any hand whatsoever in what happened, or at least, no more than the puppy.
Curley's wife was behaving in a sexually provocative manner around the men. She had no business in the bunkhouse, the men's bedroom. Reverse the situation. Would the men be allowed in her bedroom? She was seen "giving the eye" to various men, e.g., Slim and Carlson. She stood in the doorway of the bunkhouse, posing seductively in the sunlight. She was judged as jailbait by the men and as a tart because of her provative behavior. She could have kept to the house and read a book, knitted, planted a garden, or whatever. She could have learned to ride and gone to visit neighbors or joined a quilting group. Think about it. She had quite a cushy life, no chores because the house had servants.
Curley's wife knew the situation she was marrying into. She knew Curley was the way he was. What right does she have to complain about a situation she created by marrying him? She didn't marry him for love, she married him to escape the control of her mother.
More quotes: "George dealt and Whit picked up his cards and examined the. 'Seen the new kid yet?' he asked.
'What kid??' George asked.
'Why, Curley's new wife.'
'Yeah, I seen her.'
'Well, aint' she a looloo?'
'I aint' seen that much of her,' said George.
Whit laid down his cards impressively. 'Well, stick around an' keep your eyes open. You'll see plenty She ain't concealin' nothing. I never seen nobody like her. She got the eye goin' all the time on everybody. I bet she even gives the stable buck th eeye. I don't know what the hell she wants.'
George asked casually, 'Been any trouble since she got here?'
...Whit said, 'I see what you mean. No, they ain't been nothing yet. Curley's got yella-jackets in his drawers, but that's all so far. Ever'' time the guys is around she shows up. She's lookin' for Curley, or she thought she lef' somethin' layin' around and she'd lookin' for it. Seems like she can't keep away from guys. An' Curley's pants is crawlin' with ants, but they ain't nothing come of it yet.'
(But we're digressing. The topic is supposed to be about George's interest in Lennie.)
She didn't have any choice but to marry him. She lived where she lived and she had no education and no way of getting out.
We're just going to have to agree to disagree, the puppy was probably running up to people wagging his tail and desperately looking for some kind of affection too!
Rebecca wrote: "I suppose high-schools have a high concentration of sociopaths and social deviants as well?
I don't see how anything that happened was Curley's wife's fault. She was lonely and her husband was a ..."
And there are plenty of school-aged sociopaths, a la Columbine HS, etc. But most of them don't make the news. Give them a few years and they'll be behind bars.
My point was that the concentration must be the same as that in the regular population because almost everybody goes to school.
I would expect the concentration of sociopaths to be higher in grade school than the population at large because: a) the sociopathic behavior hasn't had time to fully manifest and b) even if it has, the judicial system gives them a pass until age 18 for the vast majority of crimes.
You are just guessing. I don't agree with you at all there. Most sociopaths have already "manifested" their condition by 5 years old, or even 2 years old, but at that age the label isn't usually attached because while it is just as severe as with an adult there is usually still time to turn them around.
In any case I wish you the best of luck in finding yourself a peaceful paradise without women.
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Monty J
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Jul 22, 2012 05:42PM
Nicely put Ray, and what you've said resonates with something Steinbeck himself said about OMM--that the story symbolizes the fundamental tension between man and woman. Women carry with them the potential to cause trouble among men who would otherwise be in harmony, and men, in pursuing the softness (symbolizing love) of women, lose control over their animal urges, leading to sometimes painful consequences.
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Men in prison don't have any contact with women and they generally don't live in harmony. And I think I read a study that said that boys engage in bullying more in all-boys schools than in mixed schools. So I don't think there is a correlation there, although certainly in this book the woman caused some problems!
Oh in my experience women are nicer to each other around men too, but I've never read anything to support that.
Rebecca wrote: "Men in prison don't have any contact with women and they generally don't live in harmony. And I think I read a study that said that boys engage in bullying more in all-boys schools than in mixed sc..."Men in prison is far from representative of the general population. Much the opposite, as prisons have a high concentration of sociopaths and social deviates.
The operative word is "potential." I didn't say it was the norm for women to make trouble. Several places in the story, warnings are issued to Lennie about the "trouble" Curley's wife could cause, and despite these repeated warnings, the trouble manifests, destroying the men's dreams of happiness. Even after she's dead, Candy indicts her, standing over her body in the barn: "You God damn tramp,...You done it, didn't you? I s'pose you're glad. Ever'body knowed you'd mess things up. You wasn't no good. You ain't no good now, you lousy tart."
Here's another relevant quote about Curley's wife: "George sighed. 'You give me a good whore house every time,' he said. 'A guy can go in an' get drunk and get ever'thing outta his system all at once, an' no messes. And he knows how much it's gonna set him back. These here jail baits is just set on the trigger of the hoosegow.'"
Curley's wife is a certain kind of woman; so she can't represent all women except to the extent that a woman's insecurities could drive her past the boundaries of ethical behavior. (All women have this potential, the as same men, when survival is at stake, the infamous Donner Party's cannibalism being an example.)
Scarlet O'Hara is an example of a woman driven to unethical behavior by desperate circumstances.
I suppose high-schools have a high concentration of sociopaths and social deviants as well? I don't see how anything that happened was Curley's wife's fault. She was lonely and her husband was a twad. She had no choice but to marry him and nothing that could be called a life with him, she was a sort of a slave, she was probably better off dead.
I don't think it was any more her fault what happened to her than it was the fault of the puppy. I don't think it could be said she had any hand whatsoever in what happened, or at least, no more than the puppy.
Curley's wife was behaving in a sexually provocative manner around the men. She had no business in the bunkhouse, the men's bedroom. Reverse the situation. Would the men be allowed in her bedroom? She was seen "giving the eye" to various men, e.g., Slim and Carlson. She stood in the doorway of the bunkhouse, posing seductively in the sunlight. She was judged as jailbait by the men and as a tart because of her provative behavior. She could have kept to the house and read a book, knitted, planted a garden, or whatever. She could have learned to ride and gone to visit neighbors or joined a quilting group. Think about it. She had quite a cushy life, no chores because the house had servants.Curley's wife knew the situation she was marrying into. She knew Curley was the way he was. What right does she have to complain about a situation she created by marrying him? She didn't marry him for love, she married him to escape the control of her mother.
More quotes: "George dealt and Whit picked up his cards and examined the. 'Seen the new kid yet?' he asked.
'What kid??' George asked.
'Why, Curley's new wife.'
'Yeah, I seen her.'
'Well, aint' she a looloo?'
'I aint' seen that much of her,' said George.
Whit laid down his cards impressively. 'Well, stick around an' keep your eyes open. You'll see plenty She ain't concealin' nothing. I never seen nobody like her. She got the eye goin' all the time on everybody. I bet she even gives the stable buck th eeye. I don't know what the hell she wants.'
George asked casually, 'Been any trouble since she got here?'
...Whit said, 'I see what you mean. No, they ain't been nothing yet. Curley's got yella-jackets in his drawers, but that's all so far. Ever'' time the guys is around she shows up. She's lookin' for Curley, or she thought she lef' somethin' layin' around and she'd lookin' for it. Seems like she can't keep away from guys. An' Curley's pants is crawlin' with ants, but they ain't nothing come of it yet.'
(But we're digressing. The topic is supposed to be about George's interest in Lennie.)
She didn't have any choice but to marry him. She lived where she lived and she had no education and no way of getting out. We're just going to have to agree to disagree, the puppy was probably running up to people wagging his tail and desperately looking for some kind of affection too!
Rebecca wrote: "I suppose high-schools have a high concentration of sociopaths and social deviants as well? I don't see how anything that happened was Curley's wife's fault. She was lonely and her husband was a ..."
And there are plenty of school-aged sociopaths, a la Columbine HS, etc. But most of them don't make the news. Give them a few years and they'll be behind bars.
My point was that the concentration must be the same as that in the regular population because almost everybody goes to school.
I would expect the concentration of sociopaths to be higher in grade school than the population at large because: a) the sociopathic behavior hasn't had time to fully manifest and b) even if it has, the judicial system gives them a pass until age 18 for the vast majority of crimes.
You are just guessing. I don't agree with you at all there. Most sociopaths have already "manifested" their condition by 5 years old, or even 2 years old, but at that age the label isn't usually attached because while it is just as severe as with an adult there is usually still time to turn them around. In any case I wish you the best of luck in finding yourself a peaceful paradise without women.
