C.C.’s comment > Likes and Comments
2 likes · Like
I disagree. Lupin admitted that James and Sirius tricked Snape into going into the Whomping Willow - and to be honest this goes far past bullying and into the realms of attempted murder. Anyone who is capable of thinking that is 'just a prank' are worse than bullies - no matter if they have a sense or remorse. As far the impression with Hermione punching Draco, that also makers her a bully. Yes she was angry but that is no excuse to harm another human being no matter how much you may disagree with them. I am not saying that Draco didn't deserve it but there is such a thing as taking the higher ground and it appears that there is no-one in these books capabale of doing so.
a) James also stopped Snape from actually going, saving his life. b) Hermione is not a bully for using violence against Malfoy. Malfoy had established a pattern of abuse to which Hermione was justified to respond. And the higher ground is bullshit.
A) Legally, James and Sirius attempted to murder Snape - yes James had a change of heart but he could still be charged. He still made the attempt, and we know from other sources than Snape that the Mauraders did other things so one change of heart does not in any way solve the whole issue.
B) A bully can be defined as - A person who uses strength or power to harm or intimidate those who are weaker - I am not saying that Malfoy was not a bully (he was) but the way in which Hermione reacted also makes her one. There is absolutly no reason to resort to physical violence in that situtation and a large number of others.
And taking the moral high ground is a very good thing to do if you can do it - I freely admit that it is very hard but it is the best thing to do in a lot of situtions and could have been done by a number of people within these books.
No, James and Sirius did not legally attempt to murder Snape. I know this because I practice law for a living. Their actions were far too remote from any potential of death to constitute murder if we assume the Snape would have died and not simply been turned into a werewolf. That James stopped Snape shows that he didn't intend any actual harm.
You seem to be confusing violence with bullying. Your own definition gives the lie to your argument because Malfoy was in no way weaker than Hermione. And Hermione maintains the moral high ground because punching a bully is justified. By your standards, we should tell all the Davids of the world to leave the poor Goliaths alone.
Congratulations on practicing law, I also have a law degree and what they did was attempt to murder Snape. They both intended harm at the time which is enough, James would likely have a 'reduced' sentence due to his actually stopping Snape.
What you also need to take into account though is that Lupin freely admits that he has little control as a Werewolf - therefore the likelyhood that Snape would have been killed is significantly higher than had he been facing Greyback who kept the human awareness.
Punching a bully is never justified as it makes you yourself a bully. I am saying that an action against another human being that is harmful - be that psychological bullying (such as the kind that Malfoy tended towards) or physical bullying (Hermione by punching Malfoy, Malfoy in later books by assaulting Harry and the Marauders on numerous occasions against Snape). Perhaps some people might consider violent acts to be something different from bullying but in my opinion there is no difference. Anyone who lowers themself to act in that manner can be considered a bully (again this is my opinion).
You are incorrect in saying that Hermione keeps the moral highground - she would have done so had she not reacted but she failed to do this. And do please try to keep strawman arguments out of this and keep to the 'facts' found in the books.
Apparently you are not familiar with renunciation. Taking active steps to prevent the crime after an attempt (a point I'm not conceding) is an affirmative defense which means James would not receive a reduced sentence but be acquitted outright.
And I didn't realize we were using your personal dictionary to define words. I certainly can't argue with you there. However, any standard definition of bullying involves both a pattern and superior strength. Both of these are present with Malfoy but not Hermione.
As for straw men, I haven't seen any, but if you find some let me know.
BOOM! Lawyered.
Ahh, we do not have renunciation under UK law (or if we do we were never taught about it under defences - the closest we have would be insanity and that does not fit with the available information regarding James). So your final statement here seems rather out of place as countries all have different laws so what may be valid in America will not be valid here or elsewhere.
Up until your last comment this was actually (for this site) a relatively mature discussion. I must query though why you seem so surprised that different people have different definitions of things - if this were not the case we would all (effectively) be robots. Under your so called standard of bullying a pattern is required - whereas I think any one off attempt can be considered bullying (though I concur that repeated instances, like what Malfoy does, is considerably worse).
Rather than lapse into childlike outburts - perhaps we could agree to disagree on what we personally consider bullying? Depending on whether you were bullied, were a bully or were so incredibly lucky not to encounter it at all will obviously effect your viewpoint on it.
The main issue I have with the original statement was that so many people I have seen on this site and spoken to seem to overlook the basic principle that a crime was (if not comitted) instigated. I am happy that you do agree on this last point.
back to top
date
newest »
newest »
message 1:
by
[deleted user]
(new)
Jun 23, 2012 08:13AM
Finally, someone says what I was thinking.
reply
|
flag
I disagree. Lupin admitted that James and Sirius tricked Snape into going into the Whomping Willow - and to be honest this goes far past bullying and into the realms of attempted murder. Anyone who is capable of thinking that is 'just a prank' are worse than bullies - no matter if they have a sense or remorse. As far the impression with Hermione punching Draco, that also makers her a bully. Yes she was angry but that is no excuse to harm another human being no matter how much you may disagree with them. I am not saying that Draco didn't deserve it but there is such a thing as taking the higher ground and it appears that there is no-one in these books capabale of doing so.
a) James also stopped Snape from actually going, saving his life. b) Hermione is not a bully for using violence against Malfoy. Malfoy had established a pattern of abuse to which Hermione was justified to respond. And the higher ground is bullshit.
A) Legally, James and Sirius attempted to murder Snape - yes James had a change of heart but he could still be charged. He still made the attempt, and we know from other sources than Snape that the Mauraders did other things so one change of heart does not in any way solve the whole issue.B) A bully can be defined as - A person who uses strength or power to harm or intimidate those who are weaker - I am not saying that Malfoy was not a bully (he was) but the way in which Hermione reacted also makes her one. There is absolutly no reason to resort to physical violence in that situtation and a large number of others.
And taking the moral high ground is a very good thing to do if you can do it - I freely admit that it is very hard but it is the best thing to do in a lot of situtions and could have been done by a number of people within these books.
No, James and Sirius did not legally attempt to murder Snape. I know this because I practice law for a living. Their actions were far too remote from any potential of death to constitute murder if we assume the Snape would have died and not simply been turned into a werewolf. That James stopped Snape shows that he didn't intend any actual harm.You seem to be confusing violence with bullying. Your own definition gives the lie to your argument because Malfoy was in no way weaker than Hermione. And Hermione maintains the moral high ground because punching a bully is justified. By your standards, we should tell all the Davids of the world to leave the poor Goliaths alone.
Congratulations on practicing law, I also have a law degree and what they did was attempt to murder Snape. They both intended harm at the time which is enough, James would likely have a 'reduced' sentence due to his actually stopping Snape. What you also need to take into account though is that Lupin freely admits that he has little control as a Werewolf - therefore the likelyhood that Snape would have been killed is significantly higher than had he been facing Greyback who kept the human awareness.
Punching a bully is never justified as it makes you yourself a bully. I am saying that an action against another human being that is harmful - be that psychological bullying (such as the kind that Malfoy tended towards) or physical bullying (Hermione by punching Malfoy, Malfoy in later books by assaulting Harry and the Marauders on numerous occasions against Snape). Perhaps some people might consider violent acts to be something different from bullying but in my opinion there is no difference. Anyone who lowers themself to act in that manner can be considered a bully (again this is my opinion).
You are incorrect in saying that Hermione keeps the moral highground - she would have done so had she not reacted but she failed to do this. And do please try to keep strawman arguments out of this and keep to the 'facts' found in the books.
Apparently you are not familiar with renunciation. Taking active steps to prevent the crime after an attempt (a point I'm not conceding) is an affirmative defense which means James would not receive a reduced sentence but be acquitted outright. And I didn't realize we were using your personal dictionary to define words. I certainly can't argue with you there. However, any standard definition of bullying involves both a pattern and superior strength. Both of these are present with Malfoy but not Hermione.
As for straw men, I haven't seen any, but if you find some let me know.
BOOM! Lawyered.
Ahh, we do not have renunciation under UK law (or if we do we were never taught about it under defences - the closest we have would be insanity and that does not fit with the available information regarding James). So your final statement here seems rather out of place as countries all have different laws so what may be valid in America will not be valid here or elsewhere.Up until your last comment this was actually (for this site) a relatively mature discussion. I must query though why you seem so surprised that different people have different definitions of things - if this were not the case we would all (effectively) be robots. Under your so called standard of bullying a pattern is required - whereas I think any one off attempt can be considered bullying (though I concur that repeated instances, like what Malfoy does, is considerably worse).
Rather than lapse into childlike outburts - perhaps we could agree to disagree on what we personally consider bullying? Depending on whether you were bullied, were a bully or were so incredibly lucky not to encounter it at all will obviously effect your viewpoint on it.
The main issue I have with the original statement was that so many people I have seen on this site and spoken to seem to overlook the basic principle that a crime was (if not comitted) instigated. I am happy that you do agree on this last point.
