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I'm basing this on what was revealed in COK, where (view spoiler)[Prince Oberyn tells Tywin that when he was young, he and his sister came to Casterly Rock. While there, Cersei showed them Tyrion, who had just been born. She said he had killed her mother and then clenched his penis in her fingers and squeezed it until he cried out in pain. She then said he would be dead soon enough. This is a perfect example of her cruelty that predates her marriage to Robert. (hide spoiler)]
Correction, Oberyn tells Tyrion this, not Tywin.
As for the nature of Robert's treatment of her, I have the sources on exactly what it entailed. It actually is spelled out in detail. I would like to post that for interest sake. And I do want to be clear, I don't justify or condone anything Robert did to her. And if I were Cersei, I would certainly think it was brutal too.
Jean, as far as you read, you got it right. It's not possible to go to further details without spoiling contents from other books. If you got tempted and clicked on Matthew's spoiler, I will add that(view spoiler). About Robert and Cersei being technically married, I believe that at some point she tells Ned that she actually got pregnant by Robert, but she took some abortive because she didn't want to have his children. I think Robert was brutal to her for no other reason than her nagging at him and probably not wanting to have sex often, because all the other stuff, he never lived enough to find out.
About Ned, I agree that it wasn't his "mercy" towards Cersei and her children that lost him. I read a very good analysis and I agree that, if he had held political/military control from the beginning, he could have afforded to warn her and she wouldn't have been able to plot against him in return. His biggest mistake was trusting Littlefinger, I think most of us agree on that... I may have used the word "love" to describe what he felt for Cat, but obsession would describe it better.
Yes, Jean, Laura is right. Cersei was only (view spoiler) Which raises an important question. Was she so young that these actions aren't to be taken seriously? Or does it show that even as a child she was an already a cruel and mean-spirited person?
Oh yeah, I also forgot how she (view spoiler). Again, nothing is said outright, but that's GRRM for you!
Thanks, Matthew and Laura. I have already read COK but had managed to forget that ugly little story. Matthew, I don't think 8 is too young for those actions to be taken seriously; 3 or maybe 5 is about the limit on that in my book. On the other hand... not age, but grief, could be a partial mitigation; she hated her victim, for reasons that would be good by a young child's reasoning. She was clearly capable of cruelty; she was also young and grieving...I'm not sure that that incident makes me think she was evil. As usual with GRRM, there is gray area for just about everybody. (Except Littlefinger, although I won't be the slightest bit surprised if he turns up some good qualities before the series ends.) (Well, and I haven't seen anything bad yet about Hodor, or Bran, or Sam Tarly.)
I'm with you on Littlefinger. I read (don't remember which book) something sad and something kind of disturbing about the guy's past, but his levels of creepiness in the 'present' are way over the top. He's clever enough to pull the strings on everyone else's weaknesses. He took advantage of Cersei's narcissism and paranoia, Ned's sense of honor, Lysa's mental illness and obsession, Joffrey's cruelty, etc, etc, etc. I think his plot to get rid of Ned was nothing but a first step to create chaos and war for his own wicked plans.
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Matthew
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Aug 22, 2014 10:52AM
I'm basing this on what was revealed in COK, where (view spoiler)[Prince Oberyn tells Tywin that when he was young, he and his sister came to Casterly Rock. While there, Cersei showed them Tyrion, who had just been born. She said he had killed her mother and then clenched his penis in her fingers and squeezed it until he cried out in pain. She then said he would be dead soon enough. This is a perfect example of her cruelty that predates her marriage to Robert. (hide spoiler)]
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Correction, Oberyn tells Tyrion this, not Tywin.
As for the nature of Robert's treatment of her, I have the sources on exactly what it entailed. It actually is spelled out in detail. I would like to post that for interest sake. And I do want to be clear, I don't justify or condone anything Robert did to her. And if I were Cersei, I would certainly think it was brutal too.
Jean, as far as you read, you got it right. It's not possible to go to further details without spoiling contents from other books. If you got tempted and clicked on Matthew's spoiler, I will add that(view spoiler). About Robert and Cersei being technically married, I believe that at some point she tells Ned that she actually got pregnant by Robert, but she took some abortive because she didn't want to have his children. I think Robert was brutal to her for no other reason than her nagging at him and probably not wanting to have sex often, because all the other stuff, he never lived enough to find out.About Ned, I agree that it wasn't his "mercy" towards Cersei and her children that lost him. I read a very good analysis and I agree that, if he had held political/military control from the beginning, he could have afforded to warn her and she wouldn't have been able to plot against him in return. His biggest mistake was trusting Littlefinger, I think most of us agree on that... I may have used the word "love" to describe what he felt for Cat, but obsession would describe it better.
Yes, Jean, Laura is right. Cersei was only (view spoiler) Which raises an important question. Was she so young that these actions aren't to be taken seriously? Or does it show that even as a child she was an already a cruel and mean-spirited person?
Oh yeah, I also forgot how she (view spoiler). Again, nothing is said outright, but that's GRRM for you!
Thanks, Matthew and Laura. I have already read COK but had managed to forget that ugly little story. Matthew, I don't think 8 is too young for those actions to be taken seriously; 3 or maybe 5 is about the limit on that in my book. On the other hand... not age, but grief, could be a partial mitigation; she hated her victim, for reasons that would be good by a young child's reasoning. She was clearly capable of cruelty; she was also young and grieving...I'm not sure that that incident makes me think she was evil. As usual with GRRM, there is gray area for just about everybody. (Except Littlefinger, although I won't be the slightest bit surprised if he turns up some good qualities before the series ends.) (Well, and I haven't seen anything bad yet about Hodor, or Bran, or Sam Tarly.)
I'm with you on Littlefinger. I read (don't remember which book) something sad and something kind of disturbing about the guy's past, but his levels of creepiness in the 'present' are way over the top. He's clever enough to pull the strings on everyone else's weaknesses. He took advantage of Cersei's narcissism and paranoia, Ned's sense of honor, Lysa's mental illness and obsession, Joffrey's cruelty, etc, etc, etc. I think his plot to get rid of Ned was nothing but a first step to create chaos and war for his own wicked plans.
