Maria’s comment > Likes and Comments
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But dear Maria, who are we to judge if someone is living their life in harmony with their religion's teachings? Is not their life their own? Especially when it comes to religion, it is a deeply personal aspect of themselves. No one should tell them how "good" they are at following THEIR OWN religion. It is not right and I do not believe that, if the tables were turned, you would welcome such censorship of your own life from a person so wholly unconnected with you.
It's not a matter of judging "dear Eliza" -if someone is openly living with someone as a couple and having kids - it's pretty obvious that they are having sex without being married. That is a sin according to the Catholic church. I'm not judging them, it's a RULE of the Church - who I assume you will agree DOES have the right to impose RULES onto their followers...
Of course your life is your own - but I don't think you can cherry-pick which teachings of a particular religion you want to follow and discard the rest because they interfere with the way you choose to live.
Otherwise, just have the guts to say, I was raised a Catholic but I don't believe all their teachings and rules.
To say "I am a member" of Church X - well, then you have to believe and follow ALL the rules of Church X - or else you cannot in all honesty say you are a member.
It is not up to me to impose censorship on anyone. But it is up to the various churches and religions to do so.
Duane - I've never heard the term "Collapsed Catholic" - I've heard people say they are "non-practicing" Catholics, or whatever religion...which is an oxymoron. If you don't practice it - hello - you're not one of them.... the members are the ones who practice it.
I just don't think it's right for them to be forced to answer to someone besides themselves or their church leader.
It just seems a great amount of undue stress, keeping tabs on everyone and how they practice their own religion.
I don't think any of us do that. We are talking about it now in the form of an internet discussion - expressing our opinions. We are not going to take a neighborhood poll on who's living in sin. No one is asking them to answer to them - just having a discussion. And I think - if you are a religious person - the only one you need to answer to is God. But that doesn't mean the subject is taboo for people to discuss...
Looks like we'll just have to agree to disagree, Maria. :)
And that's ok! I'm curious about which part of what I said that you disagree with. Not to argue - just to talk.
I've never heard of a "Collapsed Catholic" but I have heard of a "Lapsed Catholic". And I have heard it in English, without ever living in a English speaking country so I would say it's a very common term.
To your point, Tytti. You can be a lapsed Catholic because Catholisism is a religion. But you can't be a lapsed French person or Italian person. You can ignore the culture but you can't ignore what genes you have.
"Lapsed" means you're still making excuses.
"Collapsed" means you've so beaten down that you're too exhausted to can't even make excuses any more...
While I see your point, it's a bit extreme. First off, most religious texts were written in ancient languages that are not used anymore/aren't well known and therefore we are all going off translations of those texts. Secondly, each faith/house of worship is interpreting those texts and words based on their own experiences/goals/feelings so no two people "practice" a faith exactly the same. In a way, we're all spinning our wheels practicing a unique faith.
It's a discussion, Willow. Do you have an opinion?
Yes, my opinion is that what someone else calls his/herself is irrelevant to your life.
yeah, at least up to the point where a bunch of them all similarly self-identified get together in a cluster and deicide to... oh never mind
Willow, you obviously are just stopping by to insult people, not have an adult discussion. You, and everything to do with you, are definitely irrelevant to my life, and everyone else's life who has posted here. You don't get it...discussion...expressing opinions... oh, well. No great loss.
Your belittling is more insulting than my correct observation. Sorry I used a "bad word" in the process but it doesn't invalidate the argument that another person's ethnic identity has little to no bearing on your life. I'm just pointing out that this discussion is moot from square one because you have no logical reason to be emotionally invested in the issue.
Just because someone is discussing their thoughts on a particular issue doesn't make them "emotionally invested" in the topic. At least that's true for me. I couldn't care less what anyone decides to "call themselves"....but just because I don't care doesn't mean it isn't an interesting topic to discuss...if people are inclined to do so.
Oh really? Because one of the first things you say is that this bothers you. Your discomfort with a practice that imposes nothing on you is an emotional investment.
How about if you really have a problem about this, you confront the next partial Jewish person who casually mentions their identity and give them your theory of their identity instead of discussing it on the internet forums of the Diary of Anne Frank. "Should they be allowed to do it? Shouldn't they?"
I don't know, but it seems like you have a pretty sound argument. I'd test it out in real life. You should mention that Martian thing, too. It's a really strong example.
The part Jewish thing doesn't bother me, because as I (and lots of others here, ad nauseum) have said "JEWISH" can also be a race/nationality. The part that aggravates me is the part-Catholic thing (or part-any religion). Jewish blood can run in someone's veins, just as Italian blood, Native American blood, etc. There is no such thing as Catholic blood, or Baptist blood. They are religions, schools of belief - that people CHOOSE to believe and belong to. There is no CHOICE involved in what nationality you are.
I am a white, half Italian woman. I cannot wake up tomorrow and say "today I want to change to be a Chinese person. But I can wake up and say "I don't want to be Catholic any more - from this day forward I am going to be a Baptist.
Do you understand where I'm coming from?(less)
Oh, and Willow - thanks for not belittling me.. :)
At least I'm not using passive aggressive smiley faces. How old are you?
You weren't just discussing your thoughts, you specifically said it bothered you. That means it evokes an emotion in you. I'm not saying anything you didn't already say. There's a difference between having an interest and having a complaint.
Organized religions are lumped together based on a set of core beliefs but every religious person has their own set of personal beliefs and convictions that are permissible to but not necessarily an inherent part of their religion. People with similar beliefs flock together but everyone has their own religion in a sense. What I'm trying to say is a religious label is a malleable thing. It's a personal matter and largely up to the discretion of the person, precisely because of what you said about how Jewish, Italian, or Native American blood can run in people's veins but that of a religion cannot. DNA is immutable and measurable, but beliefs are not so cut and dry. Everyone is approximating when they try to describe their belief in a word; it doesn't make sense to single out a particular practice of approximating as inaccurate. It's all inaccurate, and even if some of it wasn't, why are you the arbiter of which is which?
But you don't choose what culture you are born into, either. If you are not decidedly atheist (and maybe even if you are), the religion in your native country will often have a strong influence on the culture and people of your country and through that also to you. It's often said that people from Protestant and Catholic countries are different, even if they are not religious.
Willow - after all this - I think we finally are agreeing on things - truce?
I'm not sure if that's accurate, but a truce doesn't need to be called anyway. It was never a fight. As you said, it's a discussion.
My question was rhetorical, but I am nineteen.
Thanks, Willow. Our difference in ages probably makes us see lots of issues in totally different ways. All of us have opinions, and I find it very interesting in forums such as this, to hear and discuss opinions that differ from mine.
I wouldn't be so sure. I am much older and still agree with her, so I don't think the age has anything to do with it. Even my parents wouldn't agree with you and my father even taught religion.
Which religion did he teach, Tytti - French, Italian, Caucasian... oh yeah, those are RACES - not religions.
French and Italian aren't races, they're nationalities.
True, Willow - I stand corrected. But they are also not choices you can make such as what religion you want to be.
That, to me - is the whole point of this thread.
That is really interesting, Tytti - I have always been interested in religion - I'd like to study some of the more osbcure ones that I haven't come in contact with in my lifetime - that is something other than Baptist, Catholic and Jehovah's Witnesses.
Religion is one of the subjects in school and children get taught the main points in all the bigger world religions. They don't choose their religion themselves, either, their parents have already done that for them. And even if they can change that as adults, they would still have lived in a country/culture where most people follow the same religion(s). So it isn't difficult to understand that they would feel part "something" even if they are officially something else.
You know, that actually does make sense to me. They feel they are "part" of some religion because they were raised in it. It will always be there with them even if they change their belief system. Thanks - your comment here is very enlightening to me.
In most countries there is also a main religion because of the historical reasons and a lot of the country's culture is based on that religion. So even if your parents are atheists, you learn to be a part of that culture and maybe absorb some parts of the religion, too. I think it might be more common in Asia but I would guess it happens similarly in Europe, too.
aHA!
That reminds me of one of my favorite conundrums... IF you've never been raised in ANY religion, how do you deicide which one to adopt?
I mean, they all claim they're the only true religion... so what's a poor confused benighted disenfranchised heathen to do? (I mean, unless Abdul comes around and makes your decision for you at gunpoint, Or Something...).
To everyone on this thread who disagrees with me, we all have our opinions. Your opinion and my opinion doesn't matter in the real scheme of things, but think about this: if someone who was "part" Jewish walked into a synagogue, would the true Jews there accept said person into the faith without them being converted first? Could a non-Jew be accepted into the faith without being converted simply because of their ancestry? No.
Well maybe they don't care whether or not they are accepted by "the true Jews", or don't even want to be "accepted". Not everyone needs someone else's permission to be themselves.
True - you don't need permission to be of the Jewish race or nationality - you either are or you are not.
But you DO need permission to be a member of the Jewish RELIGION - or any religion. You have to accept all the beliefs and live according to them - that is "convert". You can't convert to a race or nationality.
No, you don't. You don't have to belong to anything and still consider yourself "something". And you can change your nationality.
I can change my citizenship and my allegiance, but I can't change the Italian blood flowing through my veins to be French blood.
But I can change my beliefs and consider myself to be of the Jewish faith vs. the Catholic faith.
You're right, you can consider yourself to be anything you want - but to actually belong to the group and be a bonafide member - you have to believe what they believe and practice what they practice. Otherwise why bother to consider yourself to be one of them?
There are over a billion Catholics in the world. There are probably almost as many ways to be one, especially in countries that are historically Catholics. Majority of Italians or Spaniards are Catholics and I don't think that the normal people in those countries start judging others whether or not they are truly Catholics.
Thank you Maria, you've just put my thoughts into words. Sure, you can say whatever you want about yourself. Everyone has the right to do so. But if actual Jews don't accept you as Jewish, are you really Jewish?
Tytti; there is only one way to become Catholic, and that is by converting. Even Catholics born into the religion like myself have to be confirmed into the faith before they can be seen as truly a part of the church. No, maybe the normal average Catholic wouldn't give a thought about whether others are truly Catholic, but the stricter Catholics who are more attached to the religion will certainly take offense. Catholics do other things such as the Eucharist and Reconciliation that are holy ceremonies. If someone who wasn't Catholic took part in the Eucharist at my church, I would take offense. These things are simply not done. If a non-Jew claimed to be Jewish in front of an actual Jewish person, the actual Jew would probably take offense.
And many/most people do all that out of habit simply because they are born into that culture. They may not live according to all the rules but they are still Catholics.
Being Jewish is a bit different because it's even more linked with ethnicity. But I guess some people just like to take offence. Luckily it's not much of an issue here.
I'm not talking about people who were born into the culture; I'm talking about the people who do not take part in the culture in any way, and use the term Jewish as an accessory. To some, that would be considered as offensive.
And as to the first few sentences of your last comment, I don't know if you meant the Jews or the Catholics, but if someone who has not been properly confirmed into the Catholic church, they should NOT be taking part in their ceremonies or rituals. This has been stressed by many; because their parents told them it was okay does not make it right.
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But dear Maria, who are we to judge if someone is living their life in harmony with their religion's teachings? Is not their life their own? Especially when it comes to religion, it is a deeply personal aspect of themselves. No one should tell them how "good" they are at following THEIR OWN religion. It is not right and I do not believe that, if the tables were turned, you would welcome such censorship of your own life from a person so wholly unconnected with you.
It's not a matter of judging "dear Eliza" -if someone is openly living with someone as a couple and having kids - it's pretty obvious that they are having sex without being married. That is a sin according to the Catholic church. I'm not judging them, it's a RULE of the Church - who I assume you will agree DOES have the right to impose RULES onto their followers...Of course your life is your own - but I don't think you can cherry-pick which teachings of a particular religion you want to follow and discard the rest because they interfere with the way you choose to live.
Otherwise, just have the guts to say, I was raised a Catholic but I don't believe all their teachings and rules.
To say "I am a member" of Church X - well, then you have to believe and follow ALL the rules of Church X - or else you cannot in all honesty say you are a member.
It is not up to me to impose censorship on anyone. But it is up to the various churches and religions to do so.
Duane - I've never heard the term "Collapsed Catholic" - I've heard people say they are "non-practicing" Catholics, or whatever religion...which is an oxymoron. If you don't practice it - hello - you're not one of them.... the members are the ones who practice it.
I just don't think it's right for them to be forced to answer to someone besides themselves or their church leader.
It just seems a great amount of undue stress, keeping tabs on everyone and how they practice their own religion.
I don't think any of us do that. We are talking about it now in the form of an internet discussion - expressing our opinions. We are not going to take a neighborhood poll on who's living in sin. No one is asking them to answer to them - just having a discussion. And I think - if you are a religious person - the only one you need to answer to is God. But that doesn't mean the subject is taboo for people to discuss...
Looks like we'll just have to agree to disagree, Maria. :)
And that's ok! I'm curious about which part of what I said that you disagree with. Not to argue - just to talk.
I've never heard of a "Collapsed Catholic" but I have heard of a "Lapsed Catholic". And I have heard it in English, without ever living in a English speaking country so I would say it's a very common term.
To your point, Tytti. You can be a lapsed Catholic because Catholisism is a religion. But you can't be a lapsed French person or Italian person. You can ignore the culture but you can't ignore what genes you have.
"Lapsed" means you're still making excuses."Collapsed" means you've so beaten down that you're too exhausted to can't even make excuses any more...
While I see your point, it's a bit extreme. First off, most religious texts were written in ancient languages that are not used anymore/aren't well known and therefore we are all going off translations of those texts. Secondly, each faith/house of worship is interpreting those texts and words based on their own experiences/goals/feelings so no two people "practice" a faith exactly the same. In a way, we're all spinning our wheels practicing a unique faith.
It's a discussion, Willow. Do you have an opinion?
Yes, my opinion is that what someone else calls his/herself is irrelevant to your life.
yeah, at least up to the point where a bunch of them all similarly self-identified get together in a cluster and deicide to... oh never mind
Willow, you obviously are just stopping by to insult people, not have an adult discussion. You, and everything to do with you, are definitely irrelevant to my life, and everyone else's life who has posted here. You don't get it...discussion...expressing opinions... oh, well. No great loss.
Your belittling is more insulting than my correct observation. Sorry I used a "bad word" in the process but it doesn't invalidate the argument that another person's ethnic identity has little to no bearing on your life. I'm just pointing out that this discussion is moot from square one because you have no logical reason to be emotionally invested in the issue.
Just because someone is discussing their thoughts on a particular issue doesn't make them "emotionally invested" in the topic. At least that's true for me. I couldn't care less what anyone decides to "call themselves"....but just because I don't care doesn't mean it isn't an interesting topic to discuss...if people are inclined to do so.
Oh really? Because one of the first things you say is that this bothers you. Your discomfort with a practice that imposes nothing on you is an emotional investment.How about if you really have a problem about this, you confront the next partial Jewish person who casually mentions their identity and give them your theory of their identity instead of discussing it on the internet forums of the Diary of Anne Frank. "Should they be allowed to do it? Shouldn't they?"
I don't know, but it seems like you have a pretty sound argument. I'd test it out in real life. You should mention that Martian thing, too. It's a really strong example.
The part Jewish thing doesn't bother me, because as I (and lots of others here, ad nauseum) have said "JEWISH" can also be a race/nationality. The part that aggravates me is the part-Catholic thing (or part-any religion). Jewish blood can run in someone's veins, just as Italian blood, Native American blood, etc. There is no such thing as Catholic blood, or Baptist blood. They are religions, schools of belief - that people CHOOSE to believe and belong to. There is no CHOICE involved in what nationality you are. I am a white, half Italian woman. I cannot wake up tomorrow and say "today I want to change to be a Chinese person. But I can wake up and say "I don't want to be Catholic any more - from this day forward I am going to be a Baptist.
Do you understand where I'm coming from?(less)
Oh, and Willow - thanks for not belittling me.. :)
At least I'm not using passive aggressive smiley faces. How old are you?You weren't just discussing your thoughts, you specifically said it bothered you. That means it evokes an emotion in you. I'm not saying anything you didn't already say. There's a difference between having an interest and having a complaint.
Organized religions are lumped together based on a set of core beliefs but every religious person has their own set of personal beliefs and convictions that are permissible to but not necessarily an inherent part of their religion. People with similar beliefs flock together but everyone has their own religion in a sense. What I'm trying to say is a religious label is a malleable thing. It's a personal matter and largely up to the discretion of the person, precisely because of what you said about how Jewish, Italian, or Native American blood can run in people's veins but that of a religion cannot. DNA is immutable and measurable, but beliefs are not so cut and dry. Everyone is approximating when they try to describe their belief in a word; it doesn't make sense to single out a particular practice of approximating as inaccurate. It's all inaccurate, and even if some of it wasn't, why are you the arbiter of which is which?
But you don't choose what culture you are born into, either. If you are not decidedly atheist (and maybe even if you are), the religion in your native country will often have a strong influence on the culture and people of your country and through that also to you. It's often said that people from Protestant and Catholic countries are different, even if they are not religious.
Willow - after all this - I think we finally are agreeing on things - truce?
I'm not sure if that's accurate, but a truce doesn't need to be called anyway. It was never a fight. As you said, it's a discussion.My question was rhetorical, but I am nineteen.
Thanks, Willow. Our difference in ages probably makes us see lots of issues in totally different ways. All of us have opinions, and I find it very interesting in forums such as this, to hear and discuss opinions that differ from mine.
I wouldn't be so sure. I am much older and still agree with her, so I don't think the age has anything to do with it. Even my parents wouldn't agree with you and my father even taught religion.
Which religion did he teach, Tytti - French, Italian, Caucasian... oh yeah, those are RACES - not religions.
French and Italian aren't races, they're nationalities.
True, Willow - I stand corrected. But they are also not choices you can make such as what religion you want to be. That, to me - is the whole point of this thread.
That is really interesting, Tytti - I have always been interested in religion - I'd like to study some of the more osbcure ones that I haven't come in contact with in my lifetime - that is something other than Baptist, Catholic and Jehovah's Witnesses.
Religion is one of the subjects in school and children get taught the main points in all the bigger world religions. They don't choose their religion themselves, either, their parents have already done that for them. And even if they can change that as adults, they would still have lived in a country/culture where most people follow the same religion(s). So it isn't difficult to understand that they would feel part "something" even if they are officially something else.
You know, that actually does make sense to me. They feel they are "part" of some religion because they were raised in it. It will always be there with them even if they change their belief system. Thanks - your comment here is very enlightening to me.
In most countries there is also a main religion because of the historical reasons and a lot of the country's culture is based on that religion. So even if your parents are atheists, you learn to be a part of that culture and maybe absorb some parts of the religion, too. I think it might be more common in Asia but I would guess it happens similarly in Europe, too.
aHA!That reminds me of one of my favorite conundrums... IF you've never been raised in ANY religion, how do you deicide which one to adopt?
I mean, they all claim they're the only true religion... so what's a poor confused benighted disenfranchised heathen to do? (I mean, unless Abdul comes around and makes your decision for you at gunpoint, Or Something...).
To everyone on this thread who disagrees with me, we all have our opinions. Your opinion and my opinion doesn't matter in the real scheme of things, but think about this: if someone who was "part" Jewish walked into a synagogue, would the true Jews there accept said person into the faith without them being converted first? Could a non-Jew be accepted into the faith without being converted simply because of their ancestry? No.
Well maybe they don't care whether or not they are accepted by "the true Jews", or don't even want to be "accepted". Not everyone needs someone else's permission to be themselves.
True - you don't need permission to be of the Jewish race or nationality - you either are or you are not. But you DO need permission to be a member of the Jewish RELIGION - or any religion. You have to accept all the beliefs and live according to them - that is "convert". You can't convert to a race or nationality.
No, you don't. You don't have to belong to anything and still consider yourself "something". And you can change your nationality.
I can change my citizenship and my allegiance, but I can't change the Italian blood flowing through my veins to be French blood.But I can change my beliefs and consider myself to be of the Jewish faith vs. the Catholic faith.
You're right, you can consider yourself to be anything you want - but to actually belong to the group and be a bonafide member - you have to believe what they believe and practice what they practice. Otherwise why bother to consider yourself to be one of them?
There are over a billion Catholics in the world. There are probably almost as many ways to be one, especially in countries that are historically Catholics. Majority of Italians or Spaniards are Catholics and I don't think that the normal people in those countries start judging others whether or not they are truly Catholics.
Thank you Maria, you've just put my thoughts into words. Sure, you can say whatever you want about yourself. Everyone has the right to do so. But if actual Jews don't accept you as Jewish, are you really Jewish?
Tytti; there is only one way to become Catholic, and that is by converting. Even Catholics born into the religion like myself have to be confirmed into the faith before they can be seen as truly a part of the church. No, maybe the normal average Catholic wouldn't give a thought about whether others are truly Catholic, but the stricter Catholics who are more attached to the religion will certainly take offense. Catholics do other things such as the Eucharist and Reconciliation that are holy ceremonies. If someone who wasn't Catholic took part in the Eucharist at my church, I would take offense. These things are simply not done. If a non-Jew claimed to be Jewish in front of an actual Jewish person, the actual Jew would probably take offense.
And many/most people do all that out of habit simply because they are born into that culture. They may not live according to all the rules but they are still Catholics.Being Jewish is a bit different because it's even more linked with ethnicity. But I guess some people just like to take offence. Luckily it's not much of an issue here.
I'm not talking about people who were born into the culture; I'm talking about the people who do not take part in the culture in any way, and use the term Jewish as an accessory. To some, that would be considered as offensive. And as to the first few sentences of your last comment, I don't know if you meant the Jews or the Catholics, but if someone who has not been properly confirmed into the Catholic church, they should NOT be taking part in their ceremonies or rituals. This has been stressed by many; because their parents told them it was okay does not make it right.
Around here that is referred to as a "Collapsed Catholic".
(And how do you KNOW you're not a Martian that's had a memory transplant??)