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Sorry, Tytti. If you don't live according to ALL the rules, you don't get the privilege of still being Catholic. All or nothing.
If you born into a culture where practically everyone is Catholic (or Lutheran or whatever), then it is normal to be confirmed etc. because that is the tradition. And they are Catholics whether you accept them or not because frankly their relationship with their God or church shouldn't concern you one bit. I think even Jesus had something to say about judging others.
Heh, "the privilege"...
Nope, sorry - each religious organization has it's beliefs, rules, moral standards, etc that it's MEMBERS are obligated to follow if they want to be considered a MEMBER in good standing. That's not to say a person can't be a "bystander" - that is - attend the services, cherry-pick the beliefs and moral standards they want to follow that fit in with their life and reject the rest.
In that case they could say - I share some of the beliefs of the Catholic (or any) religion. But truly they are not a real member unless they jump in with both feet and take on ALL the baggage that comes with membership.
Well you may think so, many others don't.
"As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls."
Agreed. It's definitely between them and whatever higher power they believe in and think they have to answer to.
But to me, it's like wanting to be a member of a club. Let's say that the rules of the club are: we all dye our hair blue, we don't ever eat red meat, we run naked through the park on Wednesdays. To be in our club, these are the rules. And someone says, oh, cool club, but oh,I am going to eat red meat, not dying my hair blue, and certainly not going to run around nude. But hey, I am calling myself a member anyway.
Tytti, you still haven't said what your opinion is on people who randomly come into the church without being converted or confirmed and take the Eucharist. All you've said is that if that's their religion, they should be able to take it whenever they want. And it is not just my opinion that taking the Eucharist if you are not Catholic is wrong, many priests have said the same thing. Only a CATHOLIC may take the Eucharist in the Catholic church. Other Christian churches may be less strict on if others may take the bread and wine, but CATHOLIC churches recognize this as wrong.
Maria, exactly!! Why would people claim to be a part of something when they nitpick at the rules? The religion itself hasn't changed, it's people that have modernized it. The same rules still apply as they always have, and if someone were truly faithful to their religion, they would keep all the rules in mind.
Yes - go visit a different church every Sunday, pick and choose your beliefs a little from each one, partake in whatever they offer - but don't call yourself a member of any of them because you're not!
Sorry Maria. That's just too closeminded for most of us.
Geoffrey, Carrie - I'm not saying that people shouldn't be allowed to go to whatever church they want. Just that you can't really be a member - of a church, a club, or anything really - unless you follow all the rules and believe all the teachings. That's not being closed minded - that's just common sense.
Exactly, Maria. Not only is it common sense, but if your religion is saying you can't do something or that you're not supposed to be doing something and you still do it, isn't that going against your own beliefs? If you're not going to go with what your religion is teaching, what's the point of even claiming to be a part of it?
Well, luckily it seems not even the Catholic Church agrees with you: "the failure to practice one's Catholic faith, even over a long period of time, does not constitute a formal act of defection. --- In any case, though, since Catholic baptism establishes a canonical presumption of Catholic affiliation, canonical proof of defection from the Church must be produced to overcome that presumption."
http://www.catholic.com/quickquestion...
Tytti, the thing is, in the Catholic church, just because you've been baptized does not mean you are automatically saved. The sins and errors you commit in your life are not forgiven simply because of baptism ; you must be truly sorry to be forgiven. We are a work in progress. You can leave the church for a while, but when you come back, you must be ready to receive God and follow the rules of the church.
But you are still a Catholic, even according to the Catholic Church. We are not talking about saving people.
Just because you were baptized into the Catholic church does not mean you are a Catholic once and for all time. It means you have to live up to what that baptism symbolized, which would be adherence to the Catholic teachings.
But it's not your business to judge who is and who is not Catholic. Unless they are formally defected from the Church, they are considered to be Catholics by the Church. And if they call themselves Catholics, they probably haven't.
I am not judging anyone. It is just my opinion that a person cannot accurately call themselves Catholic unless they actually believe Catholic teachings and live by the rules and standards set out by the Catholic church. If you don't do those things, what else is there that makes you Catholic? Being christened as a week old infant? I'd say that would be Catholic in name only - like calling yourself a gourmet cook because you stepped inside a kitchen when you were a child. As I've said, it's not my judgement - it just doesn't make common sense to call yourself something that you really don't have anything to do with.
So it doesn't matter to you that the Catholic Church itself considers them to be Catholics? You are right and everyone else is wrong? They probably have their reasons to identify themselves as Catholics and they are the only ones whose opinion matters in this case.
It may be different in USA but here in Europe we don't choose what culture we are born into, and the religion of that country/area is a part of that culture, unless you actually choose to identify otherwise.
Being Catholic is not a "culture", Tytti. This is our disconnect. Catholicism is a RELIGION. With doctrine, dogma, rules, beliefs....
There are certain things that are not allowed in the Catholic church Tytti. Once you leave if you have done somthing unacceptable like get divorced, the Catholic church will no longer accept you. I know this to be true because once a lady in my church wanted to her divorce approved and they did not let her. Sure, she can still get divorced, but the Catholic church does not accept her anymore.
Maria, I completely agree. I've no idea why some people choose to identify themselves with a strict religion like Roman Catholicism if they don't follow it's practices. Some people I know even claim to be "technical Catholics," even though they only go to church on holidays and were born into the faith; it irks me. These people when asked most likely have never been to confession or have been confirmed.
Yes, being a Catholic, or a member of any other church or religion is a choice to live the way of life that religion dictates. If you don't, you're not!
Catholism is still a big part of the culture in many countries, whether you like it not. We are talking about hundreds and thousands of years of history here! Just like some pagan traditions were ingrained into religious traditions and they are also a part of our culture. The Catholic church is a part of the society in many countries and includes many different kinds of people. Luckily most of them are not as judgmental as you.
And no, getting divorced does not make you a non-Catholic, and you are still allowed to take the sacraments. Unless your church has some own rules.
If the Catholic church says divorce is wrong and you get one then you broke a rule. You may still be able to do whatever it is Catholics do as part of their rituals but you are not really Catholic since Catholic people are not allowed to get divorces, right?
And what is this stuff about "your own church having it's own rules" - can local churches modify existing Catholic doctrine to accomodate their local parishioners? Really?
Well the Catholic church doesn't agree with you.
"Please remember that a divorce alone would not affect, or hinder in any way, your participation in the Catholic Church." http://www.archatl.com/offices/tribun...
Excuse you Tytti. I believe I know my own religion better than the writer's on that website, who, might I add, likely go to a much less traditional Catholic church than they should. The Catholic church DOES NOT, I repeat NOT approve of divorce. Sure, a divorcee can take the Eucharist and do reconciliation, we're all sinners. But get remarried under the Catholic church? Absolutely not.
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Maria
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Aug 26, 2014 07:44PM
Sorry, Tytti. If you don't live according to ALL the rules, you don't get the privilege of still being Catholic. All or nothing.
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If you born into a culture where practically everyone is Catholic (or Lutheran or whatever), then it is normal to be confirmed etc. because that is the tradition. And they are Catholics whether you accept them or not because frankly their relationship with their God or church shouldn't concern you one bit. I think even Jesus had something to say about judging others.Heh, "the privilege"...
Nope, sorry - each religious organization has it's beliefs, rules, moral standards, etc that it's MEMBERS are obligated to follow if they want to be considered a MEMBER in good standing. That's not to say a person can't be a "bystander" - that is - attend the services, cherry-pick the beliefs and moral standards they want to follow that fit in with their life and reject the rest. In that case they could say - I share some of the beliefs of the Catholic (or any) religion. But truly they are not a real member unless they jump in with both feet and take on ALL the baggage that comes with membership.
Well you may think so, many others don't."As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls."
Agreed. It's definitely between them and whatever higher power they believe in and think they have to answer to.But to me, it's like wanting to be a member of a club. Let's say that the rules of the club are: we all dye our hair blue, we don't ever eat red meat, we run naked through the park on Wednesdays. To be in our club, these are the rules. And someone says, oh, cool club, but oh,I am going to eat red meat, not dying my hair blue, and certainly not going to run around nude. But hey, I am calling myself a member anyway.
Tytti, you still haven't said what your opinion is on people who randomly come into the church without being converted or confirmed and take the Eucharist. All you've said is that if that's their religion, they should be able to take it whenever they want. And it is not just my opinion that taking the Eucharist if you are not Catholic is wrong, many priests have said the same thing. Only a CATHOLIC may take the Eucharist in the Catholic church. Other Christian churches may be less strict on if others may take the bread and wine, but CATHOLIC churches recognize this as wrong.Maria, exactly!! Why would people claim to be a part of something when they nitpick at the rules? The religion itself hasn't changed, it's people that have modernized it. The same rules still apply as they always have, and if someone were truly faithful to their religion, they would keep all the rules in mind.
Yes - go visit a different church every Sunday, pick and choose your beliefs a little from each one, partake in whatever they offer - but don't call yourself a member of any of them because you're not!
Sorry Maria. That's just too closeminded for most of us.
Geoffrey, Carrie - I'm not saying that people shouldn't be allowed to go to whatever church they want. Just that you can't really be a member - of a church, a club, or anything really - unless you follow all the rules and believe all the teachings. That's not being closed minded - that's just common sense.
Exactly, Maria. Not only is it common sense, but if your religion is saying you can't do something or that you're not supposed to be doing something and you still do it, isn't that going against your own beliefs? If you're not going to go with what your religion is teaching, what's the point of even claiming to be a part of it?
Well, luckily it seems not even the Catholic Church agrees with you: "the failure to practice one's Catholic faith, even over a long period of time, does not constitute a formal act of defection. --- In any case, though, since Catholic baptism establishes a canonical presumption of Catholic affiliation, canonical proof of defection from the Church must be produced to overcome that presumption."http://www.catholic.com/quickquestion...
Tytti, the thing is, in the Catholic church, just because you've been baptized does not mean you are automatically saved. The sins and errors you commit in your life are not forgiven simply because of baptism ; you must be truly sorry to be forgiven. We are a work in progress. You can leave the church for a while, but when you come back, you must be ready to receive God and follow the rules of the church.
But you are still a Catholic, even according to the Catholic Church. We are not talking about saving people.
Just because you were baptized into the Catholic church does not mean you are a Catholic once and for all time. It means you have to live up to what that baptism symbolized, which would be adherence to the Catholic teachings.
But it's not your business to judge who is and who is not Catholic. Unless they are formally defected from the Church, they are considered to be Catholics by the Church. And if they call themselves Catholics, they probably haven't.
I am not judging anyone. It is just my opinion that a person cannot accurately call themselves Catholic unless they actually believe Catholic teachings and live by the rules and standards set out by the Catholic church. If you don't do those things, what else is there that makes you Catholic? Being christened as a week old infant? I'd say that would be Catholic in name only - like calling yourself a gourmet cook because you stepped inside a kitchen when you were a child. As I've said, it's not my judgement - it just doesn't make common sense to call yourself something that you really don't have anything to do with.
So it doesn't matter to you that the Catholic Church itself considers them to be Catholics? You are right and everyone else is wrong? They probably have their reasons to identify themselves as Catholics and they are the only ones whose opinion matters in this case. It may be different in USA but here in Europe we don't choose what culture we are born into, and the religion of that country/area is a part of that culture, unless you actually choose to identify otherwise.
Being Catholic is not a "culture", Tytti. This is our disconnect. Catholicism is a RELIGION. With doctrine, dogma, rules, beliefs....
There are certain things that are not allowed in the Catholic church Tytti. Once you leave if you have done somthing unacceptable like get divorced, the Catholic church will no longer accept you. I know this to be true because once a lady in my church wanted to her divorce approved and they did not let her. Sure, she can still get divorced, but the Catholic church does not accept her anymore.
Maria, I completely agree. I've no idea why some people choose to identify themselves with a strict religion like Roman Catholicism if they don't follow it's practices. Some people I know even claim to be "technical Catholics," even though they only go to church on holidays and were born into the faith; it irks me. These people when asked most likely have never been to confession or have been confirmed.
Yes, being a Catholic, or a member of any other church or religion is a choice to live the way of life that religion dictates. If you don't, you're not!
Catholism is still a big part of the culture in many countries, whether you like it not. We are talking about hundreds and thousands of years of history here! Just like some pagan traditions were ingrained into religious traditions and they are also a part of our culture. The Catholic church is a part of the society in many countries and includes many different kinds of people. Luckily most of them are not as judgmental as you.And no, getting divorced does not make you a non-Catholic, and you are still allowed to take the sacraments. Unless your church has some own rules.
If the Catholic church says divorce is wrong and you get one then you broke a rule. You may still be able to do whatever it is Catholics do as part of their rituals but you are not really Catholic since Catholic people are not allowed to get divorces, right?And what is this stuff about "your own church having it's own rules" - can local churches modify existing Catholic doctrine to accomodate their local parishioners? Really?
Well the Catholic church doesn't agree with you."Please remember that a divorce alone would not affect, or hinder in any way, your participation in the Catholic Church." http://www.archatl.com/offices/tribun...
Excuse you Tytti. I believe I know my own religion better than the writer's on that website, who, might I add, likely go to a much less traditional Catholic church than they should. The Catholic church DOES NOT, I repeat NOT approve of divorce. Sure, a divorcee can take the Eucharist and do reconciliation, we're all sinners. But get remarried under the Catholic church? Absolutely not.
