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message 51:
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Mrs
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Jan 15, 2022 09:49AM
And therfore Ann was smart not to marry Wentworth 8 years ago He could have turned out like Mr Price
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I think Mansfield Park does improve Fanny (though I certainly agree she improves it in return, but in a d ifferent way.)We know that Fanny is not the same person she would have been had she gone on living in Portsmouth, like her sister Susan, in the chaotic and unregulated household her parents run (or rather, don't run!). When she is sent there by Sir Thomas (not actually as 'punishment' for declining Henry Crawford, but to specifically show Fanny how grim her life would have been had she not been adopted to MP). Fanny is shocked and dismayed. The chaotic, disordered household - not so much as the relative poverty compared to MP, but the disorder - appals her, and it is clear that she realises the value of MP in comparison.
I believe he is motivated by self interest here, by the desire to be relieved of Fanny's present and future support, as he was after the death of Mr. Norris.**
I agree that may be a factor for Sir Thomas, but I think he genuinely feels that the marriage is an amazingly good opportunity for Fanny - he is thinking of her mostly, not himself. And it is a startlingly advantageous marriage. A penniless girl marrying a man with an estate of his own, a private income, a place in society - and charming and personable and intelligent (Unlike Maria's dim husband). He can't believe Fanny would turn down Henry.
It's very akin to Elizabeth Bennet turning down Mr Darcy first time around, in fact, far less understandable, as Elizabeth does have a good reason for rejecting Mr Darcy, ie, he's ruined Jane's happiness, and insulted her family. By contrast Henry Crawford has done absoltuely nothing wrong at all (unless you count him having planned, out of pique, to make Fanny fall in love with him - which she hasn't anyway.)
Outwardly, there isn't anything to condemn Henry Crawford as a husband for Fanny other than that (a) he isn't Edmund and (b) his morality is not as sound as Fanny's.
So I do see why Sir Thomas is so disbelieving and dismayed that Fanny is turning down such an offer of marriage.
Beth, but Mr. Crawford did do something -- he made both Bertram sisters in love with him and lured them into a rivalry with each other. Maria actually expected him to propose but he just left after all those marked attentions. Of course, Sir Thomas knows none of this and Fanny doesn't tell him. And I agree, he did have Fanny's interest at heart as well as her family's but I think self interest was also part of his motivation.
Yes, very true. But ....did he cross the line between 'acceptable' flirtation with Maria/Julia, or was it their own fault they fell for him?It's interesting, and perhaps revealing, that neither of Maria/Julia's brothers warned their sisters not to get their hopes up too much, or, indeed, warned Henry that he was starting to cross a line and leading to 'expectations'??
It is, perhaps, akin to Wentworth flirting with Louisa Musgrave - did he cross the line into creating expectations?
In reverse, of course, we have Jane Bennet NOT showing her feelings 'sufficiently' for Mr Bingley to believe his admiration was being returned, or, of course, that he was being sufficiently admiring to encourage her to think he DID want to marry her.
I think it shows how tricky the whole flirtation/attention/courtship business was in those days.
Beth,Yes it seems very tricky!
I think everyone was at fault in the Maria/Julia/Henry situation. He was purposely leading them on and they were both playing along, each expecting him to fall in love with her. Tom and Edmund were too wrapped up in their own obsessions (the play for Tom and Mary Crawford for Edmund) to even notice what was going on with their sisters and Henry. Fanny did try to point it out to Edmund, but he blew her off.
Wentworth found out he crossed the line when he learned others expected him to marry Louisa. The same thing happened with Bingley -- Darcy realized there was an expectation when Sir William Lucas hinted at it. This expectation was formed in spite of Jane not showing her feelings so it must have been attributable to Bingley's attentions.
With Bingley, I think the expectation was primarily formed by Mrs Bennet telling everyone it was a done deal!Vulgar (and unwise) yes, but, on the other hand, perhaps she was being cunning, not merely optimistic. If she put it about that Bingley was besotted, and 'everyone' was expecting a proposal any day now, this might very well have got back to Bingley who might therefore be almost 'socially blackmailed' into HAVING to propose (much as Wentworth felt he would have HAD to propose to Louisa.)
Mrs B isn't quite locking the two in a room together and then bursting in to find them 'compromised' but it is possibly along those lines. In her mitigation, I think she genuinely wants Bingley to propose because Jane is in love with him, and Jane's mum wants her to be happy (and happily married to a man with five thousand pounds a year of course!)
Beth-In-UK ...Sure, Mrs. B talked about it a lot but I think people based their views and expectations on what they saw. Also, they knew her, so they're not just going to go by what she says.
The sensible folk, yes, but maybe others believed her? Unmarried girls had to be so careful of what was said about them. Mrs Bennet going on about how Jane was 'of course' going to become Mrs Bingley could have gone either way maybe - that everyone believed it would happen, or that, when the Bingley's went away, that therefore Jane had been 'spurned' or even possibly 'jilted' and then that would have been worse for her than had no one ever thought Bingley keen on her in the first place.


