Michael White's Blog, page 7

EU debate: the most abusive political campaign ever in Britain?

Earlier today we discussed the behaviour of politicians and the media during the EU referendum campaign. Catch up with the debate, as it happened, below

2.07pm BST

Thanks everyone, that was a really insightful and worthwhile discussion. Really pleased to see such great comments below the line (as James says putting them politicians to shame).

We will be back next week with another debate – if you’ve got any comments/ suggestions/ideas etc then drop me an email on sarah.marsh@theguardian.com or tweet @guardianopinion.

1.58pm BST

We’ll be wrapping up comments in a few minutes - thanks for all the contributions over the past two hours. Loads of great argument below the line, and you’ve been quite polite, too, putting those politicians to shame.

Here are a couple of contrasting views, taking in Cameron’s “shrill denunciations”, bombast, and the potential for a post-Brexit geographical schism.

By and large, I haven't found this a nasty campaign at all. I haven't been especially impressed by Mr Cameron's increasingly shrill denunciations, or some of Boris's faux-pas, but by and large it's been fairly civil, and I've been discussing it with friends and colleagues on either side (or no side) without rancour. I'm not at all surprised the Guardian is citing the Scottish one as more positive of course (Scottish secession good, British secession , bad, nationalism etc). But that campaign struck me as very nasty indeed. I've certainly heard no tales of Remain window posters having their windows smashed, for example.

This referendum campaign is not only the nastiest, it is also the most bombastic and divisive I can ever remember. Whatever the outcome, on June 24th about half of the country will be angry and dispirited. There will also likely be a geographical schism - with London, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales voting for Remain and the rest of the country for Brexit. Now that the genie is out of the bottle, how will it be put back? If Brexit wins, how will the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland be managed? What if Scotland votes 'in' and then holds a second referendum to leave the union? Does anyone fancy passing through immigration and customs on the Engish-Scottish border?

1.46pm BST

Passions are bound to run high when a question of national destiny is being decided, but the gravity of the issue doesn’t explain why levels of personal acrimony in the EU referendum campaign seem so high. Is it all that much more vicious than any other campaign? Last year’s general election was hardly a genteel affair. Neither was this May’s London mayoral race. Politics can be a nasty business.

But an addition quotient of vitriol flows from the origins of this referendum in deep, old schisms within the Conservative party. Civil wars in politics tend to be more vicious and personal than contests along party lines because they involve more atavistic emotions – chiefly betrayal. Tories expect Labour MPs to disagree with them and vice-versa. In that arena, it is possible – often, but not always – to separate political combat from personal hatred. But when someone from your own party, someone whom you considered a colleague, an ally, sides against you, the wound is deeper.

1.41pm BST

To counter the (often warranted) criticism of campaigners on both sides, we asked commenters if any politicians have impressed them during the referendum campaign.

Any suggestions, do post them below the line. One reader has suggested Alex Salmond:

Alex Salmond has impressed me from the Remain side. He's actually trying to make a positive case

I hate to say it but Liam Fox has managed to keep his head.

Boris Johnson is just a disgraceful liar who will do anything to get within stabbing range of David Cameron.

1.37pm BST

Strong points backing Corbyn here ... anyone want to respond to this below the line?

Jeremy Corbyn is the politician who has most singularly let himself down most

In that case you have had a very limited exposure to the campaign.

1.32pm BST

Whither the “kinder” politics we were promised just months ago? Corbyn initiated this supposed new change of direction, but Cameron was also said to have “welcomed the more civilised” exchange during the Labour leader’s first bash at PMQs. Cut to the present EU referendum debate and the internecine ranting of both sides (and, in terms of party allegiance, the same side) has reached a nadir.

The polls pull in and out with the tide of Dover, but this might be less a fluctuation of inaccurate methodology and dodgy results (cough, 2015 general election, cough) and more a genuine reflection of changing minds.

1.26pm BST

We felt our debate needed an entirely unscientific poll. Judging by what’s been written so far, these are the politicians who haven’t exactly impressed you with their tone during the EU referendum campaign. But who has been the rudest?

An unscientific poll for our EU debate: which politician has been the rudest? https://t.co/LTFdzRwYnB

1.23pm BST

News just in – Donald Trump has confirmed he is to visit the UK later this month (the day after the UK’s referendum) to attend the official reopening of his hotel and golf resort in Scotland.

Related: Donald Trump to visit UK on day of EU referendum result

1.21pm BST

Navigating these political campaigns is a voter’s nightmare. The deluge of “facts” and “counter facts” being issued by both sides of the debate is not unique to the referendum – it is reminiscent of general election campaigns, of course. In this instance, however, we are being treated to examples of out-and-out misinformation and a level of noise that is making it hard to hear the voices of those who will be most affected by the decision.

The question of whether the British public is apathetic towards Europe or whether this disengagement is the result of a communications and image problem between Brussels and the wider electorate has long been debated. This time around, the politicians campaigning on either side are falling into that trap again – swinging between statements that are aimed very much at the individual voter’s interests (house prices, for example) to issues so broad and complex that they will only obfuscate the real issue if not properly handled.

1.15pm BST

This comment looking at immigration and the language of the campaign raises some good points. Let us know what you think below the line.

As an expat living in the UK, I also welcomed the referendum at first as I believed the EU has changed a lot and people should be consulted on whether they feel it is moving in the direction they want.

But frankly I have started to become very worried about the language being used in the referendum campaign, particularly now that immigration has become the main focus. There seems to be no filter anymore and blatant racism is close to becoming the mainstream way of describing foreigners. You almost expect this by certain parts of the media but you also expect high ranking politicians to not sink to the same level. Watching what is crawling out from under the rocks now is scary.

1.14pm BST

Another good comment on Corbyn’s Remain campaigning, particularly in the context of John McDonnell’s criticism of Sadiq Khan sharing a platform with the prime minister.

Corbyn is not an enthusiastic Remainer we all know that. He has seen what happened to Labour after the Scottish referendum and does not want to be seen to be helping him out. However he is really not doing himself or Labour any favours by sitting on his hands. He needs to put the case for a Progressive EU.

Having said all that the media has focused on the Tory Civil War which makes getting air time very difficult for anyone else.

Related: John McDonnell: sharing EU platform with Tories discredits Labour

1.08pm BST

An interesting response on Corbyn. People criticise his lack of involvement, but maybe it’s better than getting involved for all the wrong reasons and playing political games. What does everyone think?

Jeremy Corbyn is the politician who has most singularly let himself down most

How? Because he used Obama's African heritage against him? Because he accused a mayoral candidate of extremism? Because he is standing on a platform of fear?

1.01pm BST

Like all but the most fanatical partisans in the Brexit debate (yes, there are also still some on the Remain side), I read and listen to it all with only half an ear most of the time. Referendums are not meant to be a pub brawl or a multiple choice question which is how they are usually treated. It’s another reason why they’re such a bad idea.

So Margaret Thatcher would never have held one and she didn’t. They bring out the divisive worst in us and will leave a bad, lingering smell like a house fire. Just look at Scotland’s independence referendum in 2014. Anyone who says it was more civilized than 23 June version obviously wasn’t there.

12.55pm BST

Boris Johnson is a satirist’s dream, so it’s a shame we’re not living in a particularly golden age for satire, the Guardian’s Steve Bell notwithstanding.

Leave campaigners were delighted when Johnson tied his colours to their mast, but his interventions have not been without controversy, whether it’s been making strange remarks about President Obama’s ancestry or comparing the EU to Hitler.

Related: Steve Bell's If ... on trying to control Boris Johnson

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Boris Johnson has been by far the most toxic of all the leading politicians on both sides of the divide.

His offensive and borderline racist observations about Obama, Germany, Turkey and its people and more have ensured that the debate has turned very ugly indeed. His contribution amounts to a litany of deliberately divisive and damaging comments on immigration and immigrants that will have major repercussions for racial and social harmony in Britain, possibly for years to come.

Many of the Brexiters I have had conversations with, have been articulate with their arguments. To the point where I can agree on some issues (democracy within the EU hierarchy, for example)

However, when you speak with the majority of Brexiters, their arguments very quickly descend into name calling as soon as you refute any of their assertions. Why is this so? In my opinion, it's because they see this happening from from their "leaders" on a daily basis. Again, imo, Boris has been terrible for this kind of childish behaviour. With the others not far behind.

12.52pm BST

In response to Andrew Sparrow @casehistory has said that politicians have behaved much worse in EU debate compared to other campaigns – especially the conservative party.

I think Andrew Sparrow has missed the point a bit. I'm sure the political fighting on twitter is much the same, but I don't recall the actual politicians themselves being so vile on both sides. It leaves a rather nasty taste, considering how important this referendum is and how it just seems be an occasion to settle grievances for the Tories.

12.47pm BST

The awful dog-whistle politics of the Leave campaign is easy to identify – but the politician who has most singularly let himself down during the campaign is Jeremy Corbyn. If the referendum result rests on the shoulders of undecided left-wing voters then the conspicuous silence of the Labour leader could be more damaging than any xenophobic intervention from Boris or Nigel. The one speech he has given on the issue was one of Corbyn’s best – the institution has severe flaws, but you don’t have to love it to think we’re better off in – and chimes with many a sceptical Labour voter’s view.

Yet since that he’s remained silent, and now he’s off on holiday. Look, we get it. Corbyn’s not keen on the EU. Perhaps he was bullied into even this lukewarm support for Remain. He may well have been leading the Labour Out campign were he not leading the party. But leading the party Corbyn is, and he has a duty to make the progressive case for the EU that Labour professes to espouse. Ducking out of the biggest question facing this country for generation is not befitting of the leader of a national party, and will not be forgotten should the outers rally the troops to plunge the country into Brexit.

12.45pm BST

A few more choice views from commenters. Owlyross argues that it was always going to be difficult to have a rational debate, given the EU-phobia of certain corners of the media over the past few decades.

I don't think that it was ever possible to have a rational debate about the EU. We have been fed screaming lies by most of our major newspapers about the EU for the past 25 years, from Up Yours Delors, to bendy bananas and everything in between.

The campaigns are simply continuing this pattern of lies and exaggerations. To be honest I'm now just incredibly angry that David Cameron called this referendum in which it's almost impossible to sort fact from fiction, which is based on incredibly complicated economic and geopolitical arguments, and which the layperson can have little hope of making a fully informed judgement on.

I completely agree with Jon Snow. As a young voter (I'm 24) I have found this campaign to be utterly uninspiring and unengaging. I have voted on every occasion I can previously and usually follow elections or votes carefully in detail before making my decision.
This vote seems to have been made up of one camp claiming something to have the other camp say it is rubbish. I appreciate there are few hard facts in this debate but likewise in the Scottish referendum (which I followed closely) they managed to make the debate inspiring and interesting and also positive. I would particularly agree with Snow's comments about the negativity of this campaign.
I also think Labour has been remarkably silent on the whole campaign. I'm not a Conservative voter (or ever will be) and the comparative silence of the parties that I might listen to such as the Greens, Lib Dems and Labour is bewildering. Obviously I know which side they stand...but I would like to hear their arguments as it would clarify my opinion. This could be due to lack of media coverage or to their lack of engagement but I find it strange that such an important debate hasn't had more voices other than Conservatives! I'm very unlikely to be swayed by any of the Conservative party (particularly Michael Gove as I am a teacher).
So at the moment I feel that it is an incredibly important decision, I always vote as I feel that everyone should, yet I am undecided how to vote or whether to spoil the paper. I'm morally in favour of the EU but I have no idea whether I can trust any of the arguments made as all the comments are made by one party and everything said is contradicted completely by the other side in a negative way!

12.39pm BST

Our Social and New Formats editor has given his two pennyworth in the comments.

I covered some of the Scottish Indy Ref on social media for the Mirror - and found that quite "robust", shall we say. I haven't felt the same level of abuse now I'm back at the Guardian and covering the EU debate. However, we haven't got to the TV events yet. They were usually the time when a lot of anger would come out on social media. With quite a few events lined up on TV this week and next week it will be interesting to see how that goes.

One thing it definitely has in common with the #indyref is that there is an audience that say they are clamouring out for "facts", but all either side can give is predictions and projections. We know that a Brexit would cause turmoil in the economy, but for how long? Would it be short-term turbulence and then a glorious future? Or long-term turbulence and a worse outcome than if we'd stayed in? It's very hard to give an accurate factual answer to that - there are so many variables in play. And, working in the media, it is striking that when I have striven very hard for balance in presenting those numbers, I usually get accused of being biased. By people from both camps…

12.33pm BST

There are usually some unwritten rules about how politicians trade insults, like not insulting colleagues so personally or your party’s policies so profoundly, to protect against doing damage to the point of no return.

Back in the 1980s, Labour showed just how devastating uncontrolled vitriol (and occasional violence) could be within the party, and to its electoral prospects. That may be why the last time there was open warfare in the Tory party on Europe, in the 1990s over the Maastricht treaty, although the corridors of Westminster were awash with angry and bitter criticism from both pro and anti-Europeans, it never got really dirty.

12.29pm BST

Comments are open and readers’ views are pouring in.

Obviously Guardian commenters are far less rude than politicians, so we’ve seen some good debate points already.

The media and politicians have both been god awful. Gary Young's article that abuse was perhaps not the best way to win over the opposition was welcome, but unopened to comments, and I can't help but think given the line taken by many in articles at the G it was published in part as a reaction to the poll which showed a 2% leave lead.

Some BTL has been excellent, sources given, debate, back and forth, and more power to all involved. Some had just been abuse. If I read the comments at a paper that leaned the other way the abuse might be aimed more at remainers, but seeing as I don't it has appeared to me to be definitely slanted to one side.

Related: Ridiculing Brexiters is a sure way to lose the argument for staying in the EU | Gary Younge

12.15pm BST

So, Jon Snow says he cannot recall a “worse-tempered or more abusive, more boring UK campaign” than the one we’re having at the moment about EU membership. He thinks it compares particularly unfavourably with Scotland’s independence referendum in 2014.

Snow clearly did not spend much time on Twitter two years ago. The independence referendum was an uplifting exercise in democratic engagement, prompting a remarkable 85% turnout, but the debate was not all worthy of Cicero, social media got distinctly unpleasant and it culminating in a large crowd descending on the BBC’s HQ in Glasgow to demand the sacking of Nick Robinson for having the temerity to report something disobliging about Alex Salmond.

12.09pm BST

The prominent voices in the EU debate have been Boris Johnson, David Cameron, Alan Johnson, and Nigel Farage etc, but where are all the female voices? The discussion has (depressingly and predictably) been dominated by men in suits.

11.48am BST

Kicking off in 10 minutes, keyboards at the ready!

10.38am BST

What do you think of how the EU referendum campaigns have been run?

If the words “boring” and “abusive” spring to mind then Jon Snow would agree with you. Writing in the Radio Times the Channel 4 News presenter said he cannot remember a “worse-tempered or more abusive, more boring UK campaign”.

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The Battle of Jutland: the Chilcot shambles of its day

The mist and confusion surrounding the May 1916 naval battle is a reminder of the fearsome cost of military miscalculation

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