Pam Laricchia's Blog, page 8

EU335: Unschooling “Rules”: Always Say Yes

This week, I’m excited to share our first episode in the Unschooling “Rules” series!

We use the word “rules,” in quotes, to draw attention to the fact that there is no such thing as an unschooling rule! It can feel easier to reach for a set of rules to follow, especially when we’re learning something new, but we want to offer you space to look within, to find what makes sense to you and what makes sense to the individual members of your family. There are no unschooling police. Nobody is going to drop by your house and give you a failing grade—or an A+. Our goal with this series is to explore these apparent “rules” and cultivate an environment for self-discovery, for inquiry, for agency, and for growth.

In this episode, we’re diving into the “rule” to say yes to your kids. We explore why people may find themselves trying to always say yes as part of the paradigm shift to unschooling. And we also talk about how always saying yes can lead to frustration, disconnection, and resentment. I share one of my guiding questions, “Why not yes?” and we dive into a few examples of how conversations about context and a focus on working together to meet everyone’s needs can create such valuable learning for the whole family.

We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey!

Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram, Facebook, and her website.

Follow @helloerikaellis on Instagram.

Check out Pam’s new podcast with Anna Brown, The Living Joyfully Podcast.

Join Pam’s newsletter and get a free copy of her intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

Submit your question for a future Q&A episode, and if you’re a patron of the podcast, be sure to mention that.

Become a patron of The Exploring Unschooling Podcast for as little a dollar a month (in a wide variety of currencies) and help keep the podcast archive freely available to anyone who’s curious and wants to explore the fascinating world of unschooling.

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. Our theme this month is It’s Not the Unschooling, and we’re exploring it through the lenses of curiosity and relationships.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

PAM: Welcome! I’m Pam Laricchia from living joyfully.ca and today, I’m joined by Anna Brown and Erika Ellis. Hi to you both.

ANNA AND ERIKA: Hello.

PAM: Now, before we get started, we wanted to remind everyone that with this Unschooling “Rules” series, we use the word rules in quotes to draw attention to the fact that there is no such thing. It can feel easier to reach for a set of rules to follow, especially when we’re learning something new. But we want to offer you space to look within, to find what makes sense to you and what makes sense to the individual members of your family. There are no unschooling police. Nobody is going to drop by your house and give you a failing grade or an A+. Our goal with this series is to explore these apparent “rules” and cultivate an environment for self-discovery, for inquiry, for agency, and for growth.

So, in this episode, we’re diving into the “rule” to say yes to your kids. Now, conventionally parents are so used to saying no to their kids’ requests for any number of reasons. They don’t want to spoil them. They want to avoid a big mess to clean up. They’re busy and they don’t have time to play and so on. It’s not that this is done with any particular malice. It’s more about the power dynamic that’s inherent in conventional adult/child relationships, right? The parents’ needs take precedence over the child’s needs.

So, when we begin learning about unschooling, we’re encouraged to question the that script. Since our children are going to be learning through living rather than through following a curriculum, it makes sense for them to engage in lots of experiences, to follow their curiosity and see where it leads. That’s often when they’re in a flow state learning almost through osmosis.

But to get there, we are actively encouraged to stop saying no to our children’s requests and start saying, yes, absolutely. The challenge comes when we, striving to be a perfect unschooling parent, take this idea on as a rule, seeing yes is good and no is bad. Full stop.

Now, always saying yes to a child’s requests can be as thoughtless as always saying no. And that’s because context matters. Human beings, individuals matter. A little thought and conversation goes a long way to discovering if the request makes sense in the moment. So, even if it’s a small request with a pretty easy yes, narrating our thoughts as we walk over to the cupboard to grab the paint can help our child see the kinds of things that we can consider.

So, we might say, “Oh, the table’s already clean and the plastic tablecloth is right here for us to toss on top. Let’s go grab the paints and paper from the cupboard.” It also gives them the opportunity to pipe up with their thoughts, too, to be part of the process if they notice something. And that way, from their perspective, we are not just a gatekeeper of random yeses and nos. Instead, we’re their partner in accomplishing the things they want to do. That is what we’re looking at with unschooling.

And when situations get more complex with more needs and more constraints at play, they have some experience now to draw on as we dive into conversations around ways to get to the yes that work for everyone involved.

So, what helped me in this transition time was to tweak that rule into a question that I could ask myself. So, instead of feeling the admonition to say yes always, I would ask myself, “Why not yes?” What that did was put me in a mindset of leaning to the yes — yes was right there in the question — while still reminding me to take a moment to think about the context, because that’s where the meat of it is. That’s where we’re learning so much about ourselves, learning so much about our kids, learning so much about where everybody is in that moment. Learning about the environment, just learning how to make choices and decisions. That’s the richness of unschooling, not an offhand yes or no. The richness is in the moment.

Okay, so Erika, what are your thoughts?

ERIKA: I’m so excited to dive into these unschooling “rules,” quote unquote, because as someone who grew up being a very good student and a huge fan of those A+’s, I know there is a certain appeal to rules and to just being told what to do. I’ve experienced that draw towards wanting to do things the right way and to have all the right answers. So, I absolutely get the reason why people latch onto a so-called rule, like always say yes, and treat it as a rule from on high to be followed no matter what in order to be a good unschooler.

But what’s so interesting about the unschooling journey is that it’s exactly those rules that tend to be what create challenges and sticking points along the way. They’re the places where parents will say, “I’m trying to do this.” Like, “I’m trying to always say yes, and it’s not feeling good. I feel like unschooling doesn’t work for our family.” If I say yes when I’m feeling really uncomfortable, or if I’m pushing through my fears and the messages I’m getting from my body, pushing through my emotions, pushing through my capacity over and over again, I can reach a breaking point, and this is when I feel like a martyr.

I may think things like, “I do everything for them. When will my needs matter?” Or, “I feel like I never get a break. Don’t they see how much I do for them? It’s never enough. I just can’t keep doing this. I feel like no one cares about my feelings.” And thoughts like that are warning signs. I am being martyrly. I’m not communicating my feelings and needs, and I’m thinking that I have to do things in a certain way, even if it’s not working.

And I also get why it’s common unschooling advice to say yes more, because our culture’s treatment of children includes excessive use of the word no. Kids do not have the same rights as adults. Adults are encouraged to use their power over their children to get them to comply, and good parenting is really equated to having complete control over your children, maybe in a loving way, but the power dynamic is there and it’s adults who have the power. Saying no to children as an automatic response is considered acceptable and perhaps even good for children, because of this idea that children should know they can’t just get what they want. And saying no puts them in their place in that power dynamic, which is at the bottom.

And so, questioning that makes sense and it’s revolutionary to begin with. Turning those automatic nos into yeses could be a way to approach changing that structure. But the version of unschooling that I love isn’t saying that children now have the power in this same power dynamic and that the adults have no power. It’s changing that relationship completely to try to eliminate power-over as a dynamic. Everyone in the family’s needs are valid and important regardless of their age, and everyone has autonomy, has a voice, regardless of their age.

So, I also wanted to add that adults can use their culturally-given power over children out in the world in order to make sure that the children’s voices are heard and that their consent is respected when we’re not in our unschooling homes. Anna?

ANNA: For me, whenever I notice that, “I should be,” or anything similar, I know that it’s time for me to dig into what, what’s that about? The idea that there’s one way to be in the world is a very helpful idea to toss aside.

So, there’s so many ways to be in the world, and there’s not one way to parent or unschool or, I would argue, to do anything. But when we’re changing a paradigm, that pendulum swing happens so naturally. We want to distance ourselves from the action that now feels out of step or even wrong. But swinging to that far side can be just as problematic, like Pam mentioned. And as it relates to, “say yes,” if you’re saying yes to something that doesn’t feel good, your energy is not aligning with your actions, and kids really pick up on that. But they don’t exactly know what to do with it. So, then sometimes it ends up with behavior pieces or just a disconnect between you.

And you’re also missing the opportunity for you and your kids to learn how to consider other opinions, how to look at the context, how to see what someone else needs, how to solve a problem, and find a solution that feels good to both parties. And that is such a helpful skill to carry with us through our lives. So, we don’t want to overstep those opportunities or miss them somehow.

And I love, Pam, your, “Why not yes?” Because it creates such a great space, a space where we’re questioning that snap no. We’re absolutely questioning that. And we’re looking at the whole context. And in that context, we can see the limitations of our own capacity, what the environment can support, while keeping an eye to finding a way to meet the need.

So, instead of the power struggle, it becomes a chance, again, for collaboration, to be on the same team, for learning more about one another. And I think what I found and I’ve heard it echoed in other families, is when you build that foundation of trust that needs will be taken seriously and are something that we’re all going to work towards, it becomes so much easier and faster to communicate about our capacity at any given moment. There’s a trust that we’re going to figure it out. So, even if I’m needing to say no right now, because I don’t have the capacity to do it, there’s a trust that that’s not a closed door. That’s just a, we need to pause a minute and start having some discussions about it.

PAM: Yeah. I think that speaks of the relationship that we’re building over time. And sometimes, it can take a lot of yeses, depending on how much experience our kids have with us saying no. It’s not like, oh, all of a sudden, I’m going to change to asking myself why not yes? and saying yes more. And then, it’s like a light switch. Now everybody knows and now we can all talk about this and yeah, they’re not going to come at me with all these requests that they want.

Because I found over time that the requests faded a little bit. Not that they disappeared at all, but that they had more agency to do things and they also had so much trust that we would figure out a way, even if it wasn’t now for capacity issues, environmental issues, timing, all those pieces. They didn’t have to come with the big energy to convince me that this was really important to them.

They could just tell me with words. And they trusted at this point, through experience, not just because I said, “You can trust me now, I will listen to you.” That’s great to say, but you have to earn it. Trust is something that comes with experience. It’s not a switch that we can turn on.

ANNA: But I think, too, that it’s not just, okay, so you have to say this automatic yes for five months. It’s more that you’re not saying the automatic no, but it’s the transparency, I guess is what I’m trying to. You’re explaining the context along the way as you are making the decision.

Because I think it’s that arbitrary yes or no that’s very confusing to kids. And so, just a very quick example from our house that from the outside would look like, oh, you have this rule where you’re saying no. The girls grew up in Charlotte, which is in the south part of the United States. And bugs are no joke. Like no joke. And so, we would eat in the kitchen. That’s just what we did. And we did that, because if we were eating around the house, we would have bugs all over the house. So, it’s not a, I’m saying no to you eating out of that. It’s, we’re all talking about they don’t like bugs. I don’t like bugs. Here’s a solution.

So, it feels so different. It might be a common rule in someone else’s house, but with no discussion, that can feel arbitrary, versus giving that context. So, I think that kind of thing is so important.

ERIKA: Yeah, we’ve had that exact situation too, also living in the south. And we also just eat in the dining room, but it’s because the kids don’t like bugs. And so, that’s a good solution. But I’ve seen the automatic yes with that exact situation, as well. And it’s like, oh well, I guess we’ll just deal or whatever.

But I really liked, Pam, when you were talking about even when you are easily able to do something, to mention the things that are coming into your mind. Because I was thinking of an example of a kid who’s just fully in the moment. Kids are always right in the moment. “It’s midnight, but I just watched a video about making slime. I want to make slime right now.” It makes so much sense in their brain, which is right in the moment that, “I want to do that right now.” And what’s not popping in their head is what time it is, what materials we have, the cleanup. None of that is going to occur to the excited child. And so, as an adult with that bigger perspective, just to share those things, every time they come up in your mind gives so much information.

PAM: And there’s not a right yes or no answer to that question. You may be feeling excited and you happen to have the stuff and, let’s dive into it! That’s awesome. And then sometimes it doesn’t work out that way. Maybe you don’t have one in the ingredients and, “Oh, we’ll go out in the morning and get that thing,” so you can bring that yes energy with you.

But I think that piece of narrating and sharing, that is where the richness is. That is everything. That’s what takes the arbitrary out of it. We may be thinking all those things, so we know it’s not an arbitrary yes or no, but unless we mention it, they have no way of knowing. They came up with this great idea and then they get a yes or a no, and then we can get the backlash when there’s no’s, etc.

And we talk about the time it takes to move through a tantrum or upset. Do I want to spend that time or do I want to spend the time upfront sharing, having the conversation, letting them know the pieces that just aren’t lining up in this particular moment to do the thing that they’re wanting to do. And we’re going to talk a bit about the future and look, it looks like we can do this tomorrow. We can do this next week. Or we can grab this thing. The conversation — that’s where the connection is. That’s where the feeling of teamwork is. It really comes down to that relationship and connection, doesn’t it?

ANNA: Right. And something else I wanted to say about it, too, that I would see in some friends’ houses was because, like Erika was saying, we had the friends that said the automatic yes to things that where I was going, “Eek!” But what I noticed was they would say that automatic yes for a period of time, until it got to be too much for them. And then they would scream. And it was, “This is a terrible mess!” And I’m like, oh my gosh. And the kids were like deer in headlights, because it was fine 10 minutes ago, but now it’s not. But if we’re honest and we’re talking through that context and what’s happening for us, again, even if we’re moving towards the yes or no, it’s not even about that. If we’re being honest about, oh, I’m feeling worried about the cleanup for this, and if we have time to get to there for that, then it’s not the surprise. And I feel like you’re not creating this pressure cooker in yourself, because you’re being honest about your capacity and what you can do and what your concerns are. Because they are kids living in the moment. They’re not going to think 20 steps ahead when they’re super excited about something. And while we don’t have to bog them down with that, we can still provide some context that’s super helpful and helps us feel better. It’s just a calmer environment overall.

ERIKA: Yeah, I have an example from real life. I would like to tell a story.

So, my daughter Maya loves animals so much, and I do, too, but I’ve never really felt compelled to own pets in this intense way that she does. I love observing animals and connecting with friends’ pets. I have a lot of friends that are dogs who I love so much, but Maya is the next level. She wants to have an animal sanctuary. She wants to have 12 dogs of her own. So, she’s asked about getting a dog for most of the time that she’s been alive.

And I know that for me, owning a dog is outside of my comfort zone, and I have a lot of reasons why it feels like it’s too much for me. We have an apartment without a yard and, for many years, we didn’t even own the apartment, so a pet felt like that would be a liability. We love to travel. The whole family does, and so that seems like that would add a challenge. Pets can create unexpected expenses in addition to the expected ones, and we are a one income family. I get overwhelmed by household tasks and adding a pet adds a lot more household tasks.

And so, over the years we talked about it a lot and I validated and empathized with her. And together, over time, we figured out things we could do in the meantime, like visiting our friends that had dogs, offering to pet sit, and so on.

And so, an opportunity came up where Maya and I could pet-sit my sister’s giant menagerie of pets for a month, and I felt really nervous, but I also felt like this was something big that I could do — it was just outside my comfort zone — in order to fill her need for a while and it would still be manageable for me. So, we did that. It ended up being so much fun for both of us, and I let my sister know that if she ever needed help again, we would be so happy to do it again.

And as we thought more about it and talked more about it, and I talked to my sister more about the experience, my sister offered the suggestion that we could borrow her smallest dog to stay with us at our house for an extended period of time. So, that would be a chance for Maya to have a dog at home. And for me, it felt doable because I already know Marty and I love him, and he’s not a puppy. He’s really easy going and he’s small. And it felt like that situation of knowing the dog and being familiar with him, that removed a lot of my concerns. And my sister can take him back if I ever need her to, which solves most of the rest of my issues.

And so, it really became a situation that I felt like I could handle. And so, then my next step was to check in with my son and my husband about it, because I knew Maya would be on board, but I needed to make sure they were also okay with this plan. So, we talked it through and there were more potential issues like, would Marty be chewing up Oliver’s toys? Or would he be getting in the way when Oliver wants to use the computer?

And so, we came up with plans like putting a baby gate on that room that Oliver is in most of the day, so that he doesn’t have to worry about the dog. And so, we all agreed that we could do this, try it out in order to help Maya meet her strong need to have a dog with a solution that could work for everyone.

And the fun part now is that there are still so many possibilities. We can still decide at any moment if it feels good to keep him longer than the original plan or to bring him back to my sister sooner. We could talk about all the things we’ve learned about having a dog. Maya has learned so much about the annoying parts of owning a dog, and what are the fantastic parts, and what would we imagine doing if we had a dog of our own and then wanted to travel.

So, we have a better sense of what that could look like. Does having to take him out for walks since we don’t have a yard work well with the way that we want to live our lives? And so, we’re just learning so much and I am trusting completely that we’ll just keep communicating about all of our feelings and our needs and our concerns and what our visions are for what we want our lives to be like. And we can figure out ways together to make it happen in a way that feels good for everyone. And it’s just been a really.

And Maya knows, too, that her goals are really important to the whole family, and that we’re always going to be trying to figure out a way to help her follow her path, too.

ANNA: Yeah. And what I love about that story is, it’s a perfect example of why it’s not a yes or a no. It’s never that cut and dry. And when you share the context of it, everybody’s learning. Maya’s learning, you’re learning, everybody’s learning. And that’s the beauty of this.

PAM: Yes, exactly. There’s no yes/no and there’s no pass/fail.

ANNA: Right!

PAM: Go back to those grades. Nobody’s coming to grade you and we don’t need to grade ourselves or our kids. That does not need to be part of the conversation. And I think when we think about things in yes/no, pass/fail frameworks, that gets in the way of that the teamwork energy, of everybody trusting and feeling able to share their thoughts without being judged.

Because if you’re passing everything that everyone says through the yes/no filter, does it pass? Yes? No? That can get in the way of coming up with a plan. Instead, those are all seeds. Erika’s story is just a beautiful example of so many seeds being planted along the way until they bubbled up to this particular moment. But this isn’t the end of the story at all. There are just so many possibilities.

Things aren’t yes/no, now or never. None of those dynamics really help these conversations around the things that our kids are wanting to do, are interested in, all those pieces. It’s more, why not yes? How can we make this work? What are the other pieces to consider? Who else is involved? There’s so much in those conversations that we can bring with us forward over time. It doesn’t need to be a yes/no, now, never, or forever, all those pieces. 

ERIKA: Yeah. And I really think Oliver, who is not a huge part of this story, I think it’s super valuable for him, too, because I keep checking in with him. What are the things that aren’t working for you about this situation? Or what are the worries that you would have about bringing Marty to our house? But I think him seeing me supporting this, even though I’ve talked about all the challenges of it, I feel like he’s learned a lot from it, too, and also feels seen and heard, that his needs regarding Maya’s needs are also important.

PAM: And they bring that knowledge with them. They see how hard you are working and also considering for something that she’s super interested in. He knows that he will get that same trust and energy from us if something ever bubbles up for him. So, for him, seeing how that is playing out is just a beautiful example of how things may play out for some need that he has in the future. And I bet it feels good to him even knowing that you guys are considering everybody else’s needs, not just hers.

ANNA: The other cool thing about it, too, that just came to mind that I think is important when we’re talking about saying yes and finding these ways through, is that it isn’t just about you, Erika. You were solving problems using a large community beyond even your immediate family to go see dogs before you could do this, then go have the pet sitting experience. So, I think it helps our kids realize that we’re not the gatekeeper of yes and no and granting. That was not a role I wanted to be in. I wanted to be in this team behind going, how are we going to make this work? I don’t even know, but let’s start looking at our resources. Let’s start bringing in help. Let’s start figuring things out. And so, that really changes that, I’m asking and you’re granting kind of thing that can happen in a lot of families.

PAM: Yeah. And also the the energy that we have to solve it, that we have to be the one that fulfills-

ANNA: All the things.

PAM: Yes, exactly. Yeah. That’s so beautiful. All right. Thank you so much for chatting with me today. It was really fun, really fun to dive into. I’m excited for more episodes in this series.

ERIKA: Me, too.

PAM: Thanks so much, and we will talk to everyone soon.

ANNA: Bye.

ERIKA: Bye.

EU334: Q&A Deep Dive

In the intro, I share my new vision for the podcast: helping people figure out how to apply bigger picture unschooling ideas in their everyday lives. I want to help listeners explore how these big unschooling ideas work on a more practical level. In real life, with the real people that make up our family.

Here’s how the Exploring Unschooling podcast is changing in support of this shift in focus:

Anna Brown and Erika Ellis will be joining me on most episodes to bring more perspectives, experiences, and stories as we tease apart what unschooling ideas might look like in real lifethey’ll be shorter episodes that deep dive into more focused topicswe’re moving to a biweekly release scheduleand you might also notice the new logo

Also, Anna and I are starting a new podcast!

What sparked the idea was recognizing how much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Network isn’t actually about unschooling, it’s about life. So, in The Living Joyfully Podcast, we’re going to talk about life, relationships, and parenting without mentioning “unschooling.” We want to reach people who are curious about prioritizing the relationships in their lives, but aren’t sure what that looks like or how to go about it. AND we want to make it much easier for you to share this kind of information with your family and friends without having to get into the whole “unschooling” thing.

Find the new podcast in your favorite player here: The Living Joyfully Podcast.

And in this week’s Exploring Unschooling podcast episode, we’re diving deep into a listener question submitted by Joanna.

How can I convince my spouse that unschooling is right or good while I myself feel I am conducting a big experiment? When will I feel confident that this experiment will work out for the best?

As always, our Q&A conversations aren’t focused on giving anyone the “right” answer, because there isn’t a universal “right” answer for any given situation that will work for everyone. Instead, our focus is on exploring different aspects of the situation and playing with the kinds of questions we might ask ourselves to better understand what’s up. We’re sharing food for thought through the lens of unschooling.

Submit your question for a future Q&A episode, and if you’re a patron of the podcast, be sure to mention that.

Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram, Facebook, and her website.

Follow @helloerikaellis on Instagram.

Join Pam’s newsletter and get a free copy of her intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

Become a patron of The Exploring Unschooling Podcast for as little a dollar a month (in a wide variety of currencies) and help keep the podcast archive freely available to anyone who’s curious and wants to explore the fascinating world of unschooling.

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. Our theme this month is It’s Not the Unschooling, and we’re exploring it through the lenses of curiosity and relationships.

CALL TRANSCRIPT

PAM: Welcome! I’m Pam Laricchia from living joyfully.ca, and today, Anna Brown and Erika Ellis are joining me to explore a listener question. Hi, to you both.

ERIKA AND ANNA: Hello!

PAM: Now, before we get started, I just want to remind everyone that our Q&A conversations aren’t focused on giving anyone the quote “right answer” because there isn’t a universal right answer for any situation that works for everyone. So, basically what we’re doing is sharing food for thought through the lens of unschooling.

So, Anna, would you like to get us started? 

ANNA: I would. Okay. So, I’m going to read the question.

“Hello. Thank you for your show. We have been homeschooling our kids since the beginning, but that was through a public school that offered enrichment classes two days a week. When those classes stopped because of COVID fear, I started unschooling. It had been dawning on me that, no matter how fun I tried to make school, I was always trying to get them to do something they’d rather not do, for the most part. They’d be much happier playing all day if I let them, so I finally did.I love unschooling philosophy, but in practice it’s hard for me to relax into, even though I’m reading and listening and thinking about this for much of my time. So, I’m wondering how you convinced your spouse that this is right or good, while I myself am conducting a big experiment. When will I feel confident that this experiment will work out for the best? Self-doubt is always on the edge of my confidence, and so, it’s very hard for me to be persuasive with this. Any ideas? Resources? Thank you.”

Well, thank you for the question, first of all. I will say I am pretty clear with myself that I don’t want to convince anyone of anything, so I want to trust that they’re on their own path.

But I loved reading that you’re reading and listening and going to all the podcasts and all the things, and taking in all this information, because I think so much of the mechanics of it will start to sink in. And then next comes the practice, like you’re finding, the day to day where you feel it in your bones. And that comes from remaining connected.

So, during the times where I was wondering about our path, I would realize that I had drifted out of connection and I would just lean back in, go to them, see what they were up to, listen to the stories, play the games, watch the show, just be with them. And then the learning and the joy was so evident and that always brought me back to the present and kind of out of my head.

And so, while I think it’s really important to learn and to take it all in and to explore all those pieces of it, it’s just as important to get out of our heads and connect with our kids in front of us. And because I can tend to be that person that reads a lot and researches a lot, that was something that I had to relearn over the years. Because I would do that, I’d dive deep into learning about something, but realize I’d drifted away from the day-to-day connection with my kids.

And as for the spouse piece of the question, I really think that’s about tending to the relationship. Are you feeling connected to them? Are you sharing all the fun stuff that’s happening, all the amazing learning that’s happening every day? Because what I found is, as I was sharing that, it was sinking in for me, too. And if they have specific concerns, hear them, just take them in, validate. Let’s talk about that. And really validate, validate, and look for that to not get defensive.

Life is an experiment. Handing kids over to complete strangers to follow a process laid out by the powers of the moment, also an experiment, and one that often fails the individual. So, I don’t worry so much about that. I focus on connected relationships, knowing that, as we tend to the moment in front of us, we’re creating the future that we all want together.

So, Erika, what did you think?

ERIKA: Thanks so much for your question. I found it really interesting to think about, particularly I grabbed onto that word “experiment.” I love that you used that term, because I think it may be a great clue or a great place to start with a mindset shift.

I think we hear things like this a lot, something along the lines of, unschooling is this unsure, experimental, off-the-beaten-track, out-there option. Or maybe even that choosing school and a more mainstream, controlling parenting style will somehow be easier or more of a sure thing. And so, maybe that would be something to dive into and question a little bit. Is unschooling really experimental? Or is school more of an experiment? Because school is certainly a more recent invention. So, that’s just something to ponder.

And is there something guaranteed about the outcomes of schooling or mainstream parenting? I would say that there isn’t and so, it might help to recognize that there isn’t one way that will yield this desired outcome and another way that is more experimental. Either way, we’re dealing with people who are all different and we don’t really know where their lives will lead.

And so, really, what we’re looking at is just choices that have no right or wrong answer and no guarantee one way or another about how things will turn out. And so, for me, the most valuable places to look for guidance on making those choices were my own inner voice and my kids. My intuition inside would tell me when things weren’t feeling right, or when it felt like I was putting an external expectation on the children that didn’t seem to fit them or make sense if I really started thinking about he situation.

And then, if I looked to my kids, if I was willing to listen to what they’re saying, they would make it clear what was working for them and what wasn’t. And I think most people push against the kind of control that happens in school, and so, if I’m listening to my kids about that, they would say that they don’t want to be in that environment. And so, my intuition would tell me not to push past that message.

I really loved your observations about your experience of trying to do those schoolish activities at home. And it felt like you were pushing them to do things that they would rather not do. And so, I think those are the signs from our kids can prompt us to look at what’s really going on. What could life look like without those activities? Do kids learn without us deciding what they should learn or pushing a certain way or a certain time to learn?

And I do think it becomes more challenging when you have a partner who is not on board with the idea of unschooling yet. And I feel like we’ve talked about this a lot. It’s a really common issue. I know we’ve talked so much about communicating with partners on the Living Joyfully Network, but I’m pretty sure it’s been part of some podcast episodes as well. And I guess what I’d say to that aspect of the question is, like what Anna was saying, it would probably help to stop viewing it as trying to convince someone or trying to be persuasive.

For me, conversations tend to go more smoothly and our communication feels better and more effective if I’m starting from a place of being on the same team with my husband. We both love the kids. We want to create a situation for them where they have the life they want, to do our best to be supportive, providing what they need. I think most parents want that. And so, if you’re starting from that common ground, it can help us have conversations and help us make choices that are feeling good to everyone.

With my partner, we really both enjoyed reading some Alfie Kohn and some John Taylor Gatto at the beginning, to start questioning the school path. And then I shared Pam’s work and we talked about the visions that we used to have for our family and about our childhood and thinking about our experience in school and stuff like that. Those were a  lot of the conversations we had early on. And meanwhile, our kids were just living their lives, growing, amazing us with all of the learning that they were just naturally doing.

I had one other thought about a possible mindset shift that could be helpful and that would be to bring yourself into the present moment, rather than getting stuck in thinking about this big-picture, long-term view. So, I would say, at this point in my journey, I very rarely am thinking about ideas like, will this all work out? when it comes to my kids. Because it’s like, there’s no way to control for that outcome, one. And two, it’s pulling me away from what is happening right now.

I think probably at the beginning of my deschooling, I did think more about that, like will this all work? But it’s been more valuable now to treat each day and each moment as it is. I’ve seen enough times that my kids will surprise me with the ways they grow, learn, and develop. So, I can’t predict the challenges. I can’t control things in such a way that I eliminate challenges, either.

But I can meet their needs and I can keep open communication and that really has been a path that’s felt so great for us.

PAM: Yeah, I think that is such an important piece, that mindset set shift to say, well, is there a path that has a guaranteed answer? Is that something I can even seek out? Is that a question that I can answer? So, that’s a great thing just ponder for a bit, to realize that there is so much uncertainty in life, no matter which path you choose. But being in the moment allows this moment to work out as well as we can, and then the next moment works out as well. And you’re in the best place that you can get when you focus on the moments, because they build over time.

Anyway, of course I am going to visit that word “convince” and, with three different ways of saying it, we’ll see what connects for anyone. But, for me, it was really helpful and I absolutely remember the feeling when I was learning so much about it and I thought this sounded so cool and I felt like I needed to convince my spouse that this was a great idea so that we could do it. I totally remember starting there, but for me, the shift was, oh, instead of sharing my answer, which is unschooling, I could share the thoughts that I was having and the observations of my kids that I was making that were leading me in that direction and see what they think. How do those things come together for them?

There’s some trust in there and some uncertainty in there. Maybe they’ll see something different, but maybe it’s something that I’ve missed. So, it’s more information. It’s more heads. It’s working together on a team, like you were talking about before. So, you can share the things that you’re seeing in your kids as they relax into playing all day, as you mentioned. You can share the interesting things you’re learning as you listen and read about unschooling.

The energy of working together and sharing, instead of, I’ve presupposed this answer for our family, and I want to convince you that this is where we need to go. That can build resistance in another person. No matter what you’re trying to convince them of, it’s like, “You have an answer that you want. You’ve made a decision for me that I haven’t really had any input in.” There’s just resistance there. Like, “I’ve decided we’re going camping next weekend,” whatever it is. You have to get through that initial resistance to explain, why do you wanna camping? Where do you wanna go camping? What are the plans that you made?

And I love what Erika mentioned, the way to get to that “We’re a team together” can easily be like, these are our kids. We want the best for our kids. We both love our kids. The choice of school, homeschool, unschooling is about the kids. They can be involved. It’s observing them and chatting with them. It’s not that they’re not doing their curriculum, if it’s homeschooling, not doing school, whatever it is, they’re doing other things instead.

So, it’s about noticing those things, noticing them over time, seeing what they’re learning, seeing what they’re choosing, seeing the joy in their faces. As Anna said, get into the moment with them, because that’s where you’re gonna see all this stuff in action.

One thing that bubbled up for me, too, is when you’re feeling that need to show confidence and be persuasive to someone, that can be a clue that you’re feeling a sense of urgency around making this choice, making this decision to start unschooling in earnest. And that can add attention to the process that doesn’t need to be there, too.

Maybe you and your spouse can just decide to give it a try for six months and even better, a year. You can always go back to the homeschooling curricula, the school, whatever, because it’s not a forever decision. You’re not making a lifetime decision in this moment. You’re like, this seems really curious. It seems like it will be a really great fit. Let’s try it out and see. That’s where that experiment word comes in. It’s perfect. Like, let’s learn more about it. Let’s see what this actually looks like in our family, because I’m really curious. It sounds like it could be super, super interesting.

One thing I wanted to talk about too is that six months to a year kind of thing, it is really important, because giving it that time to understand how unschooling works and to see it in action, that practice piece that Anna was talking about, long enough to gain real experience with it, that helps build trust, that helps you understand the process and what learning looks like. And it looks different than a curriculum. The curriculum there, whether or not your kids actually learn it, follow it, et cetera. You can see, it’s very nicely laid out in little chunks. I always think of it as a ladder, bit by bit, the rungs are the same space apart. Each time you’re learning this bit. The timeline looks very consistent.

Yet real learning, when you see it in action, is really beautiful and can look very different. It could be like boom, boom, and then we can stay here for a while, not really noticing much learning happening. Then all of a sudden, it’s like this, off the charts. And then a few more steady steps, and then we get stuck again for a while, et cetera. So, you need a nice expanse of time to really see it in action, to be able to look back and say, “Oh look! A few months ago they were doing this and then this, and then, oh, they jumped over here.” And, oh look, when I look back, I can see how related that is. I can see the beauty of the learning in action, but it’s not something that I can predict.

So, to really get a feel for unschooling and how it works, it really helps to dive in for a nice chunk of time. And in that time, you’re also learning more about unschooling and you’re seeing it in action and you’re with them in practice with the whole process and sharing these observations with your spouse.

I just think that’s an important piece. It’s not like, we’re gonna unschool for two months and then we’re gonna decide forever whether or not this is the path we’re gonna take. That’s just setting yourself up for failure. So I just wanted to, to mention that piece.

ANNA: Some things bubbled up for me that I want to talk about, and it’s actually jumping back behind what you just were saying, which is so important, I think, to give it some space to breathe and to figure out.

But what you were talking about earlier really spoke to something we talk about a lot, which is having no set outcome. So, if you’re coming into that discussion with unschooling is the answer, it really shuts down all the options and even the critical thinking. Because this does come up a lot, some things that come to mind for me is, when we can honestly say, “I don’t know, Let’s talk about it. Let’s figure out,” then we can look really critically at all of the different pieces. Because I think asking yourself, “Is it really true that this path is predictable,” and like Erika said, “will have this set outcome of, everyone’s successful and everyone’s happy?” I mean, no. We know that’s not true, because we live in a society where most people are going to school, but also to really ask, is it really better or is it just that we aren’t responsible?

And I think that’s a piece that really is an internal piece to sit with. Because if I hand them off to school or whatever that institution is, then I’ve done what I’m supposed to do and that feels more comfortable. So, even if it is an experiment that fails that way, we don’t have to be responsible for it.

So, for me, that was a lot of work I had to do to be like, you know what? I’m okay with this responsibility, because I’m living with these children every day. I see how they would not do well in a school environment. I see how they’re thriving here. And so, I can take that responsibility.

But we have to do some of that work, to peel back those layers to understand, what is the appeal of the other? Is it that we think it’s certain? Is it that we are not responsible?

ERIKA: Yeah. That’s super interesting. I was thinking also about that first part, Pam, that you were saying about giving more of the observations and the information. That’s so huge, because if you’re coming straight to someone with the set outcome in mind of, I have the plan, I know the answer, I’m gonna convince you of the thing, just the energy that you have coming into that conversation is going to make someone want to put up a wall of defense, because it feels like a lot.

But if you’re giving the information that he doesn’t already have, the things like, “You know what, when I was doing these activities with the kids, they were so resistant to them. I could see. These are the things they’re doing in school and I’m watching the kids do them and they’re not enjoying it at all. They’re resisting this and then, I look over here and they’re playing this and they’re figuring out how to read these words,” or whatever it is, the real life observations of what you’re actually seeing that is showing you why you’re wanting to choose unschooling. But starting at that place, I just think that’s such a great idea. I love that.

PAM: And that’s where the urgency piece really comes in. It’s not urgent. We’re living our days with our kids. It’s not urgent, the timeline that we get there, to choose unschooling and then it’s not urgent to like, “Okay, let’s implement this and do this forever.” I mean, that’s something that we as human beings can be drawn to. It’s hard to sit in the nebulous of not quite knowing. We all love a path. And I shouldn’t even say, “we all.”E

ANNA: There are those of us who just like to jump off that path, Pam.

ERIKA: Many, many people love the path.

ANNA: Many people. The other thing I wanted to say that speaks to what Pam said earlier, too, because this came up on the Network not long ago, and it was funny how the discussion was about the two parents and how they were deciding about what was gonna happen. And I was like, hey, what’s the kid wanna do? What’s that little one thinking? And so, this is a family decision that impacts everyone and so, if you end up trying a school thing, it’s that checking in. Is that working for them? As opposed to this top-down, “You’re now set on this path, young children, and you’re going to stay there.” No, we can all be talking about it. What feels good? What doesn’t? What would we like about it? What would we want it to be?

And so, I think sometimes that pressure we put on ourselves to make the decision as parents actually can be really helped by this process of unschooling and the way that we’re talking about collaborating,

because you’re getting input from the people that are most impacted by the decision, and they’re telling you what they want to do and what works for them. And so, I like that piece of it, too, to not lose sight of it.

ERIKA: That’s one of my absolute favorite things about unschooling, actually. What it feels like is we don’t have to worry about this nebulous, mysterious future. It’s just like, what is everyone needing and wanting and feeling now? And then the things that are the issues present themselves, and then together we deal with that thing. I mean, Maya loves talking about future plans, so we do a lot of that too. But in this present moment, what are her future plans? What are the things that are getting in the way of what she wants to do?

All of all of the issues that are important to address become super obvious. And I don’t need to make up what the problem is gonna be in the future. And so, making choices become so much easier because I’m seeing the reality of what’s happening right now rather than these future worries.

PAM: Yeah. I love that piece. I love that piece of involving the kids. Because that can also take a bit of the edge off the two parents feeling they need to make the decision and pass it on. It’s like, we have more people we can get input from. Here are my observations and my thoughts and what are they thinking? What are they doing? What are they enjoying? That expands the team.

And that’s gonna be part of the deschooling. You’ll be reminded a lot to expand the team to include your kids. It’s like everybody working together, noticing what’s up in the moment.

And I love your point, Erika, about how being in the present moment doesn’t mean never thinking about the future. It’s more about not predicting the future, not trying to predict the future. We can absolutely have all sorts of thoughts about the future and what we’d like to do or how we might like to get there, all those different pieces. And those are amazing conversations to have in the moment. And then you have them a month from now and six months from now, and you see how things have changed. Maybe the context of the moment has changed. Maybe what they’re aiming for or wanting to walk towards has changed.

Understanding that human beings change is a wonderful piece of self-awareness for adults and children to have with them, right? Because then, every moment that you’re in, I can make this choice now. It’s not, oh, last week or last month or last year, I chose this goal for myself and I have to stay there even when maybe I’m not feeling so good about it now, but it’s a failure if I don’t.

But if we can really just embrace and chat about how things change over time, I think that’s another amazing piece that, that you can bring forward with you.

So, I did wanna mention, I have a blog post I wrote. I always have a blog post. It’s called, What to Do Instead of School, and it was big enough I put it into two parts and I know we’ll put links to it in the show notes, but I think that you and your spouse might find it super helpful, too.

For me, it’s part of sharing interesting things, it’s those mindset shifts that Erika was talking about. Just what do you do instead of these more formal things? Even if it’s like curriculum and you’re only hitting the school a couple days a week or whatever life looks like right now. It can be hard to envision how we might shift from one to another way of being, an unschooling lifestyle. So, there’s some interesting stuff about in there about the transition and thinking about a season of Saturdays and getting to know your kids and learning more about unschooling.

But also, that whole self-awareness piece too, the conversations and collaboration that Anna was talking about, all those pieces, they’re just laid out there just to give you an idea of what you can do instead of just kind of sitting back. Because so often, it’s like, Oh, I’m not supposed to do these things. We’re not doing this, we’re not doing this. The person can feel like, Oh, we’re not doing a bunch of things all of a sudden, but what are we doing instead? So, I thought that would be a great thing to share, as well.

All right. Thank you so much to both of you for joining me today. I really appreciate it. It was so much fun as always.

ERIKA: It was.

ANNA: Yes. Thank you.

PAM: Bye, everyone.

ERIKA: Bye.

EU213 Flashback: Unschooling and Math with Marcella O’Brien

This week, I’m sharing a popular episode from early 2020 with unschooling mom Marcella O’Brien. Marcella’s grown sons, Jack and Sean, have also joined me in Growing Up Unschooling episode 181.

Marcella’s experience as a public school teacher and math tutor gives her a unique perspective, which led to an interesting conversation about math in school versus unschooling. Because she’s participated in both worlds, Marcella was able to share some amazing insights about math, a common sticking point for many new unschoolers.

I hope you find her thoughts helpful on your journey!

Questions for Marcella

Can you share with us a bit about you and your family? What is everyone into right now?

How did you discover unschooling and what did your family’s move to unschooling look like?

You’re also a math tutor, so I’d love to dive into that topic with you! First, let’s talk about the conventional way math is taught in schools. You have a unique perspective as a tutor to see how that teaching process plays out for students trying to understand math concepts. What have you seen?

Now let’s dive into exploring math through unschooling. In unschooling circles, we talk about how kids can learn math concepts through everyday living. I’d love to know how you’ve seen that play out.  Has that been your experience as well?

Your two older sons, Jack and Sean were on the podcast last year and I really enjoyed hearing about their experiences growing up unschooling, especially through the teen years and college. I’d love to hear your perspective on those years! What strikes you as you look back on them now?

You’re still unschooling with your youngest. What’s your favorite thing about the flow of your days right now?

Things mentioned in the episode

EU181: Growing Up Unschooling with Jack & Sean O’Brien

Mary Griffith’s book, The Unschooling Handbook

Paul Lockhart’s essay, “A Mathematician’s Lament”

Episode Transcript

Read the transcript

Video

Watch the YouTube video

Have a question about unschooling?

Submit your question here for an upcoming Q&A episode!

The Living Joyfully Network community

The Network is a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. Our shared goals are to embrace lifelong learning, develop strong and connected relationships with our children, and cultivate a thriving unschooling lifestyle in our families.

This month, our theme is It’s Not the Unschooling! and we’re looking through the lenses of curiosity and relationships. If you’re curious to learn more, click here!

Consider becoming a patron

I deeply appreciate all my patrons! Your generous support allows me to keep the podcast archive freely available to anyone who’s curious and wants to explore the fascinating world of unschooling. If you’d like to join my community of patrons and scoop up some great rewards along the way, check out the Exploring Unschooling page on Patreon.

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EU239 Flashback: Unschooling Dads with Roop Bhadury

This week, I’m sharing a fun conversation I had with unschooling dad Roop Bhadury. I connected with Roop through his wife Susan, who is a member of the Living Joyfully Network. She has also joined me on the podcast in episode 220. Roop and Susan live with their now three young children in Australia. It was so much fun to get to hear about their family from Roop’s perspective. He shared his thoughts about the philosophies of unschooling and entrepreneurship, about life, curiosity, learning, and relationships.

It was an expansive conversation with so many profound insights!

Questions for Roop

Can you share with us a bit about you and your family?

When we connected, you shared some topics you’d be interested in touching on and I was struck by the language you used, so I want to stay with your lovely wording! I’d love to hear your thoughts on your first point about curiosity and guardrails. Do they complement or compete?

Next you mentioned positive and negative empathy. Can you describe what you mean and share how you see them playing out?

You used the phrase “creative chaos in play.” I love the image that conveys! How have you seen that unfold in your lives?

And the last point you mentioned: “Knowledge is free, pedagogy isn’t, and its ongoing relevance.” What are your thoughts around that?

What is your favourite thing about your unschooling days right now?

As an unschooling dad, what piece of advice would you like to share with dads who are just starting out on this journey?

Things mentioned in the episode

Sir Ken Robinson’s TED Talk, Do schools kill creativity?

Contact Roop via email, Roop at engag3d dot com

Pam’s book, The Unschooling Journey

Transcript

Read the transcript

Video

Watch the YouTube video

Have a question about unschooling?

Submit your question here for an upcoming Q&A episode!

The Living Joyfully Network community

The Network is a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. Our shared goals are to embrace lifelong learning, develop strong and connected relationships with our children, and cultivate a thriving unschooling lifestyle in our families.

This month, our theme is Being Ourselves in the World and we’re looking through the lenses of self-awareness and choice. If you’re curious to learn more, click here!

Consider becoming a patron

I deeply appreciate all my patrons! Your generous support allows me to keep the podcast archive freely available to anyone who’s curious and wants to explore the fascinating world of unschooling. If you’d like to join my community of patrons and scoop up some great rewards along the way, check out the Exploring Unschooling page on Patreon.

Connect with Pam

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EU119 Flashback: Gaming and Growing Up Unschooling with Xander MacSwan

I get so many questions about “screen time” and video games and how they fit into an unschooling life, so I thought it might be helpful and fun to reshare a conversation I had with Xander MacSwan in 2018. Xander left school in the 5th grade when his parents—both professors in the University of Maryland’s College of Education—decided the best thing they could do was to start unschooling. We dove deep into Xander’s passion for video games, including the difference between gaming as part of deschooling and choosing gaming as a passion, the joys of gaming, and things he learned or experienced through gaming that continue to be relevant in his life. Xander’s perspective looking back as a grown unschooler is reassuring and enlightening!

Questions for Xander

Can you share with us a bit about you and your family, and what your family’s move to unschooling looked like?

One of the common worries for newer unschooling parents is around whether or not to limit the time their children spend playing video games. And there’s definitely a difference between deschooling and choosing gaming as a passion, though at first it might be hard to distinguish between them. Can you talk about the difference?

How did your passion for gaming develop? Can you share a bit about how that unfolded for you?

In my experience, I think diving into any passion, including a passion for video games, can be a wonderful way to learn so much about ourselves. And that understanding applies everywhere in our lives. Was that your experience?

Can you share some examples of things you learned or experienced through gaming growing up that continue to be relevant in your life now? What threads do you see looking back?

As a grown unschooler, what piece of advice would you like to share with unschooling parents who are just starting out on this journey?

Links to things mentioned in the show

Xander’s episode on Blake Boles’ Off-Trail Learning podcast

Xander works at Rose City NVC

Episode Transcript

Read the episode transcript

Have a question about unschooling?

Submit your question here for an upcoming Q&A episode!

The Living Joyfully Network community

The Network is a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. Our shared goals are to embrace lifelong learning, develop strong and connected relationships with our children, and cultivate a thriving unschooling lifestyle in our families.

This month, our theme is Being Ourselves in the World and we’re looking through the lenses of self-awareness and choice. If you’re curious to learn more, click here!

Consider becoming a podcast patron

I deeply appreciate all my patrons. Your generous support helps pay for the hosting and transcription, as well as my time spent creating new episodes each week. It’s instrumental in keeping the podcast archive freely available to anyone who’s curious and wants to explore the fascinating world of unschooling. If you’d like to join my community of patrons and scoop up some great rewards along the way, check out the Exploring Unschooling page on Patreon.

Connect with Pam

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EU111 Flashback: Ten Questions with Jan Fortune

This week, I’m sharing a conversation I had with Jan Fortune back in 2018. Jan home educated her four children in the UK and wrote many articles and five books on unschooling and parenting. Her book Winning Parent, Winning Child, focuses on living with children in ways that respect their autonomy.

In our conversation, Jan shares some of her thoughts about autonomous learning and the important role of trust in unschooling. She describes how consent-based parenting is not about martyrdom, but problem solving and time spent communicating.

I enjoyed revisiting this wonderful conversation, which is full of inspiring gems!

Questions for Jan

1. Can you share with us a bit about you and your family?

2. What did your family’s move to unschooling look like?

3. One of the first paradigm shifts that happens as we move to unschooling is from the conventional idea that childhood is a preparation for life in the adult world to the idea that a child’s present life is intrinsically valuable. And yet, almost paradoxically, focusing on living well in the present moment and solving today’s problems ends up being a great way to prepare for life as an adult, doesn’t it?

4. In an article you wrote for Life Learning Magazine, you dive into the building blocks of an autonomous, or unschooling, learning environment. I love the point you made about how this lifestyle transcends boundaries. And not just academic subjects, but getting to the place where there are essentially no boundaries between learning and living. Can you share some of the boundaries that melted away for you? It’s a deeper level of trust we reach, isn’t it?

5. What did you find to be the most challenging aspect of moving to unschooling?

6. In your book, Winning Parent, Winning Child, you make a great point about how consent-based parenting is not a call for parental self-surrender and martyrdom. Rather, it’s a call for engagement with our children. You talk about how there may be times when a mutual solution escapes us and we choose to put our children first, but that’s not ideal. Even though sacrifice is often held up as a virtue in society, why is simply giving in not a good long-term solution?

7. I’d like to dig into this transition to consent-based parenting a bit more. In the book, you wrote, “Consent works best when everyone in the family, adults and children alike, see themselves as free, respected people who can live the life they prefer within the family group. When this happening, adults and children can all be open to changing their wishes without ever fearing that it will mean doing something they really don’t want to do. This releases an enormous flood of innovative thinking for solving problems.”

I think that’s something that can be hard to believe until you see it in action. Can you share some tips about this transition and how it cracks opens creative problem-solving?

8. Another aspect of the transition to consent-based parenting I’d like to touch on is moving beyond the conventional idea that children will tend toward bad choices if they aren’t controlled. As we move to unschooling, we discover that what our children really lack is just experience. Especially if we’ve been parenting with rules and control for years, our children have had little experience with understanding themselves and making reasoned choices, so at first, they may behave in ways that may seem, to us at least, irrational. Yet that’s still not a sufficient justification for falling back on control and compulsion, is it? How else can we look at those situations?

9. In another article you wrote for Life Learning Magazine, titled, ‘As If…On Not Turning Our Children Into Byproducts of Our Philosophy,’ you talk about something I think is really important. I want to read a short quote from it:

“There is a temptation to want to prove that our home-educated children, and especially those who have real control over their own learning are more successful, more polite, let’s face it, just more… than their school-going, coerced counterparts. There is a real danger of advertising our learning style, and the alternative life style that is often a byproduct of it, by pointing to the product. Children, however, are not products; they are real, autonomous, human people, making their own mistakes on their own learning adventures; living out their learning for their own sakes, and not to provide examples for their mother’s most recent workshop talk.”

Even for parents who don’t chose to share more publicly about their family’s unschooling adventures, it’s still so valuable to shift away from the conventional mindset that our children are products turned out at the “end of our job” as parents. I think breaking this invisible tether between us and our children as builder and product, is a crucial step in our ability to see them as separate and whole human beings. Has that been your experience as well?

10. Looking back, what has been the most valuable outcome from choosing unschooling?

Links to things mentioned in the show

Jan’s book, Winning Parent, Winning Child

Jan’s article, ‘The Building Blocks of an Autonomous Learning Environment,’ published in Life Learning Magazine

Jan’s article, ‘As If… On Not Turning Our Children Into Byproducts of Our Philosophy,’ published in Life Learning Magazine

Jan’s blog on Medium

Episode Transcript

Read the episode transcript

Have a question about unschooling?

Submit your question here for an upcoming Q&A episode!

The Living Joyfully Network community

The Network is a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. Our shared goals are to embrace lifelong learning, develop strong and connected relationships with our children, and cultivate a thriving unschooling lifestyle in our families.

This month, our theme is Being Ourselves in the World and we’re looking through the lenses of self-awareness and choice. If you’re curious to learn more, click here!

Consider becoming a podcast patron

I deeply appreciate all my patrons. Your generous support helps pay for the hosting and transcription, as well as my time spent creating new episodes each week. It’s instrumental in keeping the podcast archive freely available to anyone who’s curious and wants to explore the fascinating world of unschooling. If you’d like to join my community of patrons and scoop up some great rewards along the way, check out the Exploring Unschooling page on Patreon.

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EU207 Flashback: Advice from Grown Unschoolers

It’s compilation episode time again! This week, I’m sharing one of our listener favorites from 2019, a collection of conversations with grown unschoolers in which they offer their thoughts for newer unschooling parents.

I’ve woven together answers from eleven episodes featuring twelve grown unschoolers. I think you’ll find their answers helpful and enlightening wherever you are on your unschooling journey!

Audio snippets taken from these episodes …

EU012: Growing up Unschooling with Idzie Desmarais

EU024: Growing Up Unschooling with Roya Dedeaux

EU046: Growing Up Unschooling with Brenna McBroom

EU181: Growing Up Unschooling with Jack & Sean O’Brien

EU196: Growing up Unschooling with Katie Patterson

EU080: Growing Up Unschooling with Kelly Nicole

EU141: Growing Up Unschooling with Alec Traaseth

EU159: Growing Up Unschooling with Max VerNooy

EU177: Growing Up Unschooling with Alyssa Patterson

EU163: Growing Up Unschooling with Adrian Peace-Williams

EU119: Gaming and Growing Up Unschooling with Xander MacSwan

Episode transcript

Read the transcript

Growing Up Unschooling podcast series

Check out all the episodes here

Video

Watch the YouTube video

Have a question about unschooling?

Submit your question here for an upcoming Q&A episode!

The Living Joyfully Network community

The Network is a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. Our shared goals are to embrace lifelong learning, develop strong and connected relationships with our children, and cultivate a thriving unschooling lifestyle in our families.

This month, our theme is Being Ourselves in the World and we’re looking through the lenses of self-awareness and choice. If you’re curious to learn more, click here!

Consider becoming a podcast patron

I deeply appreciate all my patrons. Your generous support helps pay for the hosting and transcription, as well as my time spent creating new episodes each week. It’s instrumental in keeping the podcast archive freely available to anyone who’s curious and wants to explore the fascinating world of unschooling. If you’d like to join my community of patrons and scoop up some great rewards along the way, check out the Exploring Unschooling page on Patreon.

Connect with Pam

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EU282 Flashback: Teachers Turned Unschoolers

This week, we’re revisiting a popular compilation episode from last year. Many people have asked me whether any former or current teachers have been interviewed on the podcast. And the answer to that question is a big YES! We have had more than 20 podcast episodes featuring guests who were or are teachers or university professors, who study education, or even who teach education courses.

Does it seem like a strange leap to make from being a teacher to being an unschooler? To me, choosing teaching indicates an interest in children and in learning, so to dive into that even more deeply with their own children through unschooling seems like a rather natural next step to take.

This episode contains snippets from six teachers turned unschoolers sharing about their journey. It’s inspiring to hear from them, especially during this frenzied, “back to school” season. And if you’re interested in hearing more from all of our episodes featuring teachers turned unschoolers, I have a reference page here for you to check out.

Audio clips taken from these episodes

EU106: Unschooling Connections with Kelly Callahan

EU054: From Teaching to Unschooling with Grace Koelma

EU243: Parenting Shifts with Sarah Peshek

EU213: Unschooling and Math with Marcella O’Brien

EU193: Unschooling Younger Kids with Martha Delmore

EU254: Finding Unschooling with Daniela Bramwell

Transcript

Read the transcript

Video

Watch the YouTube video

Have a question about unschooling?

Submit your question here for an upcoming Q&A episode!

The Living Joyfully Network community

The Network is a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. Our shared goals are to embrace lifelong learning, develop strong and connected relationships with our children, and cultivate a thriving unschooling lifestyle in our families.

This month, our theme is Being Ourselves in the World and we’re looking through the lenses of self-awareness and choice. If you’re curious to learn more, click here!

Consider becoming a podcast patron

I deeply appreciate all my patrons. Your generous support helps pay for the hosting and transcription, as well as my time spent creating new episodes each week. It’s instrumental in keeping the podcast archive freely available to anyone who’s curious and wants to explore the fascinating world of unschooling. If you’d like to join my community of patrons and scoop up some great rewards along the way, check out the Exploring Unschooling page on Patreon.

Connect with Pam

Website

Instagram

Facebook

EU333: Exploring Unschooling Q&A

Anna Brown and Erika Ellis join me again this week to dive into listener questions! We talk about the fears and doubts that come up at the start of the unschooling journey, the idea of wanting to measure success, and what to do when a child is interested in a topic that seems too grown up for them (in this case, an interest in war).

As always, our Q&A conversations aren’t focused on giving anyone the “right” answer, because there isn’t a universal “right” answer for any given situation that will work for everyone. Instead, our focus is on exploring different aspects of the situation and playing with the kinds of questions we might ask ourselves to better understand what’s up. We’re sharing food for thought through the lens of unschooling.

Click here to submit your question for a future Q&A episode

Question summaries

We had a quick first question from Sabrina who was looking for interviews with single parents who are unschooling. Pam put together a reference page with episodes to check out.

Our second question is from Erij in New Jersey. She wonders how to get past some of the doubts she has about unschooling and the judgmental opinions of family and friends in order to trust herself. She also mentions feeling a need to measure success when it comes to unschooling and isn’t sure if that’s okay.

Our third question is from Joy in Ireland. Her eight-year-old son has a strong interest in war, weapons, fighting games, and history. Some of what he wants to watch and play is rated PG-13, which feels like it might be unsafe for him. She sees him learning so much from his interest, but worries that he might be desensitized to violence and that the more mature content could be harmful.

Our final question is from McKinzie. She is a third-generation teacher and is finding deschooling and trusting unschooling to be difficult, despite wholeheartedly agreeing with the concept. She specifically feels like teaching math and reading could be important, because she doesn’t want to “leave it to chance.”

Things mentioned in the episode

Submit your own question for a future Q&A episode

The Living Joyfully Network

Are there podcast conversations with single parents who are unschooling?

EU198: School’s out. Now what? Part 1

EU203: School’s out. Now what? Part 2

EU023 Flashback: Learning to Read in Their Own Time with Anne Ohman

EU171: The Magic of Learning to Read Naturally

EU141: Growing Up Unschooling with Alec Traaseth

Teachers Turned Unschoolers

EU331: An Unschooling Journey with Jae Williams, Part 2

Episode transcript

Read the transcript

Video

Watch the YouTube video

The Living Joyfully Network community

The Network is a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. Our shared goals are to embrace lifelong learning, develop strong and connected relationships with our children, and cultivate a thriving unschooling lifestyle in our families.

This month, our theme is Remember Your Why and we’re looking through the lenses of connection and joy. If you’re curious to learn more, click here!

Consider becoming a podcast patron

I deeply appreciate all my patrons. Your generous support helps pay for the hosting and transcription, as well as my time spent creating new episodes each week. It’s instrumental in keeping the podcast archive freely available to anyone who’s curious and wants to explore the fascinating world of unschooling. If you’d like to join my community of patrons and scoop up some great rewards along the way, check out the Exploring Unschooling page on Patreon.

Connect with Pam

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EU332: An Unschooling Journey with Jae Williams, Part 3

This week, I’m sharing the second part of my recent conversation with Jae Williams (you can listen to the first half here). Jae is a former teacher and new unschooling dad of two young children. We first spoke about a year ago, right at the start of his deschooling journey. It was great to catch up with him and to hear his reflections about what he’s discovered in the last year.

Jae talks about the moments when he wonders if he’s doing enough as an unschooling dad to support his children’s learning. We dive into some ways to support an interest in math and what that can look like outside of the school environment. Jae shares what has surprised him most about unschooling, including the value of slowing down.

Jae’s observations are insightful and his curiosity about life and learning is inspiring!

Questions for Jae

When we connected to set up this call, you mentioned you’d like to talk about the question, “Am I doing enough as an unschooler?” It’s a good question, one that I think can be valuable to ponder at various points on the journey. What’s your experience with it?

What has surprised you most about your unschooling journey this last year?

What is your favorite thing about the flow of your unschooling days right now?

Things mentioned in the episode

EU290: An Unschooling Journey with Jae Williams, Part 1

EU331: An Unschooling Journey with Jae Williams, Part 2

The Living Joyfully Network

Jae’s YouTube channel, BlackDad, and his recent video, Stay at Home Dad Gives Raw Honest Take on Unschooling

Jae’s Instagram and Twitter

A Mathematician’s Lament

EU141: Growing Up Unschooling with Alec Traaseth

Transcript

Read the transcript

Video

Watch the YouTube video

Have a question about unschooling?

Submit your question here for an upcoming Q&A episode!

The Living Joyfully Network community

The Network is a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. Our shared goals are to embrace lifelong learning, develop strong and connected relationships with our children, and cultivate a thriving unschooling lifestyle in our families.

This month, our theme is Remember Your Why and we’re exploring it through the lenses of connection and joy. If you’re curious to learn more, click here!

Consider becoming a podcast patron

I deeply appreciate all my patrons. Your generous support helps pay for the hosting and transcription, as well as my time spent creating new episodes each week. It’s instrumental in keeping the growing podcast archive freely available to anyone who’s curious and wants to explore the fascinating world of unschooling. If you’d like to join my community of patrons and scoop up some great rewards along the way, check out the Exploring Unschooling page on Patreon.

Connect with Pam

Website

Instagram

Facebook