Chris Cooper's Blog, page 133

What Are Your Group Classes Worth?

I started doing personal training in 1998. For the next decade, I coached people 1:1, selling my attention for an hour at a time.

When I found CrossFit in 2008, it felt like a massive relief. After we coached our very first CrossFit group at Catalyst (for free—facepalm!), I remember turning to Mike and saying, “This is all I want to do for the rest of my life.”

A year later, I had two locations. I was showing up at 5 a.m. to mop one, then coaching a tiny “class” of two people at 6 a.m. and a group of four or five at 7 a.m. Then I’d rush back downtown to train my personal-training clients until 4 p.m. and wonder why I was losing money.

It all comes down to simple math. Here’s how to figure out what your groups are paying you:

1. Add up the total revenue you receive from group training each month (your CrossFit groups, your bootcamps, etc.).

2. Divide that by the number of classes you run at your gym per month. That’s the average value of each class. Write that number down.

3. Now go back to your total group-training revenue. Divide that by the number of people paying for group training in your gym. That’s your average revenue per group-training client.

4. Next, divide the number above by average attendance. How many times does the average client attend a group in a month? This will tell you the value of one person attending one group.

5. Finally, pull up your attendance-tracking sheet and look at each group you run. Multiply the average attendance for each group by the average value of a group-training client. That will give you a specific value for each group you run.

6. Compare the average value for each class (from Step 2) against that of each class on your schedule. Which classes are pulling you up and which are pulling you down?

7. Compare the average value for each class against your personal-training rate. Are there any spots where you’d make more money taking a 1:1 client instead of running a small class?

8. ***Danger*** Compare the average value for each class against what you’d be paid to work at McDonald’s. Maybe skip this step if the answer scares you.

Example

Sam has 150 clients and grosses $15,000 per month in group revenue.

He runs 28 classes per week, or 120 classes per month.

His average revenue per class is $125. Not bad.

Sam’s average client pays $100 per month. His average client attends 15 times.

The average value of a class attendee at Sam’s gym is $6.67.

That means his average group size is around 18 people. (You can calculate this two ways. First, you can use the attendance multiple of 0.6—data shows that a maximum of 60 percent of your clients will show up for class on a given weekday. Second, you can simply divide Sam’s revenue per group class by the average value of an attendee.)

If Sam runs a class for fewer than 18 people, he’s making less than $125 per hour.

Sam charges $65 per hour for personal training.

If fewer than 10 people show up for his class, he’d make more doing a 1:1 session in that time.

If more than 18 people show up for a class, Sam’s making more than $125—but, of course, if he adds a second coach, he’s making less.

Questions to Answer

What do these numbers tell us? On their own, they’re just a measuring stick. But as a mentor, I’d ask myself these questions:

1. What’s the sweet spot for Sam’s group coaching based on profit? Where does he begin to lose money by adding a second coach?

2. What’s the best use of Sam’s time in that hour?

3. What’s the retention at Sam’s gym? With 18 people in a class, retention is probably lower than it could be. (Read more about that here.)

4. How much can Sam afford to pay a coach? Does that match the skill set needed to coach 18 people at once?

In case you’ve determined that you need to move or cancel some classes, I’ll tell you how to do that in the next post in this series.

The post What Are Your Group Classes Worth? appeared first on Two-Brain Business.

Using “Hybrid” Packages to Increase Average Revenue Per Member

Mike (00:01):

Average revenue per member is bananas at CrossFit Jungle Gym. King of the jungle Brian Zimmerman shares his secrets on Two-Brain Radio next.

Chris (00:11):

Hi guys, Chris Cooper here. Two-Brain Radio is brought to you by Forever Fierce. Reach out to them to sell more apparel or retail items. Matt Albrizio and his team will save you time with templates. They’ll provide ideas and tell you what’s selling best. And they’ll supply marketing material and preorder sheets. If you want to get serious about apparel and retail, visit foreverfierce.com.

Mike (00:31):

This is Two-Brain Radio. I’m Mike Warkentin and I’m full of jungle jokes today. But Brian Zimmerman’s average revenue per member is no laughing matter. In December 2020, it was way over $300. He hit 335 and this is in a New Jersey gym that was locked down for three months and stuck outside for five. They’ve been operating inside with limited capacity only for the last three months. And Brian’s still crushing average revenue per member. We call that ARM or ARM for short. Brian has talked to us before about the prescriptive model and his onboarding program. And we’ll touch on those aspects a little bit today, but he’s got a few other secrets to share about specialty programs, marketing managers, and hybrid training packages. Brian, you’re back on Two-Brain Radio for the third time. And your commemorative bathrobe is in the mail. Thank you, sir.

Brian (01:16):

I’m super pumped to be here, so, you know, thank you for having me.

Mike (01:20):

Of course, my pleasure. Well, let’s talk some details here. Back in summer, we talked and you weren’t even really open, right? Like your gym, I think you said you were working out outside, and you told me your ARM was 285 or 300 in that range. How did you beat that in December? That was a great number already.

Brian (01:37):

Well, twofold it’s like, you know, we just keep onboarding, anybody that we’re onboarding we’re onboarding at a high value package is number one. And then number two is we ran a nutrition challenge that was really high value. And we basically sold it out again at 20 participants and between just bringing people on and high quality service and adding a specialty program, that was the winning ticket.

Mike (02:04):

Okay. Do you plan those specialty programs out? Do you know where they are already for the next year or even beyond that?

Brian (02:11):

Yeah, so our nutrition challenge, we run three times a year, so we do it in January. We do it May/June and then in September. So those are planned, some of our other specialty programs that create a large buffer in the, in the ARM. They’re a little bit more loose, but we know we’re going to be running at least one every month.

Mike (02:34):

Do you plan them for slow months or months that you are traditionally not as good as other ones?

Brian (02:38):

We plan to have them all year round and we do strategize based on what the, you know, what the season is like, you know, we usually do like a run program, like a couch to 5k, you know, depending on what our target is for that quarter. But we’ll run that one, usually like March and April, getting ready for like the season’s first 5ks.

Mike (03:05):

Yeah. Now you hinted at this already, without going into detail, listeners can getting your previous appearances on Two-Brain Radio. We’re gonna talk a little bit about your onboarding program and we’ve talked about this in great detail, but the thing that I want to know about specifically is what you hinted at is a hybrid PT as a default recommendation with onboarding.

Brian (03:24):

Yeah. So we’ve got the three tiers, one that sort of leads directly into two group. We have the one that’s all PT and then our default recommendation is the one that leads to hybrid membership. And, you know, part of this is based on client value. Part of it is making it easy for my salespeople to not have to be as skilled or and also like client experience. So on the coaching end is like, what we found like, this goes back years is like, when we did seed client interviews, all of our seed clients wanted more one-on-one attention. So it was really simple. Like, okay, well, let’s give you one time a week one-on-one attention, and you can still go to your groups and hang out with your buddies. And the first people that started doing that, just like accelerated in their results, like body composition, skills, like, and it was, I mean, it was insane. And so we were like, wait a minute, like this just needs to be a membership option that we recommend because it works so well. So that’s kinda how it, that was the early beginnings. And that was over three and a half years ago now. But then we built it into the standard recommendation, because with that one session, you build accountability, you build higher value, you get faster results for clients and who doesn’t want that.

Mike (04:49):

So it’s interesting that you bring that up because seed clients, for those who are listening, if they don’t know what they are, seed clients are your very best clients. They’re the intersection of the people that bring you the most joy and pay you the most. And we recommend that our affinity marketing guide, which you can get in free tools, the free tools section of Two-Brain Business, that you build services around the desires of your seed clients, not try to sell your services to people, right? Ask your seed clients what they want, provide services for them. Then find more people like your seed clients. It sounds like that’s exactly what you did here.

Brian (05:19):

Yeah. I mean, for the most part, and like, you know, we refined it over time to make it something that we could easily sell. But yeah, it started exactly from seed client saying we want more one-on-one attention, then making it into a package that they could buy. And all they need to do is say, I want more one-on-one attention. And we say, done. And that’s what the hybrid ended up being for us.

Mike (05:45):

Do you mind telling me what kind of rate that thing ends up at? If you have a person with a group membership and, you know, a PT session a week or a month, or however you set it up.

Brian (05:54):

We have a couple of options, but we have one that’s 570 a month, and that’s the most popular of the hybrid options. And then we have another one that I believe is just shy of $400 a month. The cheaper one is one half an hour session, a PT session a week in addition to group classes. And then the standard hybrid is one hour a week PT in addition to group classes.

Mike (06:25):

So that’s really interesting. So this is a high value service, and it’s a high touch service, and it allows people to kind of get the best of both worlds, where they can, you know, party with their friends in the group atmosphere, but also get that dedicated one-on-one attention. That’s so important both to retention and success.

Brian (06:42):

Yeah, absolutely. And I think one of the big piece that’s so helpful is like, you know, you have your clients who like, they need some level of accountability that’s above what you’re going to give to a group client. And it’s not because you don’t love them and you don’t want help, but like, you know, it’s hard to±this is staff thing. It’s like, how am I paying somebody to hold our clients accountable? And the best thing we could come up with is let’s give somebody a personal training session, like try and try and skip out of a PT session that you paid for. And like, now I’m going to ask you what three classes you come into this week. And like, they’re going to show up and you’re going to check their attendance from the week before, like that session is paid for, they get extra accountability from it. Plus they get all the extra attention and, you know, goal specific training. It’s, I mean, it’s dynamite.

Mike (07:36):

I have data on this, but I’m going to go out on a limb and say that because you’re building in that hour or half hour, you’re directly interacting with this client. You’re obviously building a greater relationship. I’m going to have to suggest that this is going to improve your retention, just because you’re building a stronger relationship. That’s a one-on-one connection that you just can’t quite do in a group class. You can certainly build a version of it, but not if you and I sat down for, you know, 30 or 60 minutes and had a beer, we’re going to be a lot closer than if we just like slap hands at the end of Fran, right?

Brian (08:04):

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I don’t have the LEG, you know, the length of engagement difference between the two, but I can tell you just like looking at, you know, what happened when we got shut down in March through, you know, us getting back to inside in November during the eight months where we were doing something different, we didn’t have people that were on hybrid or PT memberships change their membership or quit. Like it was only group-only clients. And like, I think that means that the service was equally as valuable as it ever was. And those people weren’t about to go anywhere.

Mike (08:47):

It’s incredible. I’ve spoken to two or three different gym owners who scored as you did in the top 24 ARM in December, 2020. And all of them are talking about these hybrid packages as not just a great thing for the gym, but a huge benefit for the client. So really everyone’s winning. And if you take one step further, the trainers are winning too, because the trainers are involved in this high value service that they can now take a larger, not a larger percentage of, but the pie is bigger. So to speak, right. If you’re paying them four ninths and you’re selling a $500 service, that’s better tha, you know, $140 membership and taking four ninths of that. So are your trainers and employees working or contracts if you have them, are they winning in this situation too?

Brian (09:26):

Oh, absolutely. And like, I can tell you, right? Like there’s a couple of my coaches are like, only give me the ones that are enhanced. Like, like only the ones that are going to be converting to hybrid, like some of my staff, they just want more personal training hours and, you know, there’s, you know, athlete check-ins and goal reviews that they can, you know, talk to clients and upsell them in a sense where, you know, decide and plan with the athlete, that there’s going to be more value in one-on-one training. But it’s a lot easier when somebody has already purchased a package that has hybrid membership, you know, written on it from the beginning. And then all they have to say is, Hey, we’ve had success, let’s continue doing that. And those clients that do the hybrid onboarding package, just roll right into a hybrid membership without a second thought.

Chris (10:20):

It’s Chris Cooper here. Your gym’s programming won’t attract new clients, but it can help you keep your clients longer. Good programming includes benchmarks, novelty, skills, progressions, leaderboards, you know all that stuff. But great programming contains something more: a link between each client’s fitness goals and the workout of the day. Your coaches need to tell your clients more than what they’re doing every day. They need to explain why they’re doing it. Gym’s whose coaches could explain the why connection had a 25% better retention rate during lockdowns. Imagine how that translates into better retention when things are back to normal. Now, I want to solve this problem for gym owners. Programming is the service you deliver to your clients. So I partnered with Brooks DiFiore, who had one of the highest adherence rates in the world for his group classes at his gym to build twobrainprogramming.com. We built this for Two-Brain gyms and we give them free access in our mentorship program. But I’m now making this available to the public. Programming proven to improve retention and cashflow in your gym. Visit Two-Brain programming.com to get it.

Mike (11:28):

So what’s the response in a sales meeting or a consultation like a no sweat intro, any term that listeners are familiar with, what is it like in there when you’re talking about a hybrid group personal training package, which a lot of us didn’t didn’t even come up with for a long time, like I’ve said before on the show, I didn’t even know you could do CrossFit in a one-on-one setting for a long time, so ignorant. Right. But now we know, but clients, we’re still educating them. How that sales pitch or, you know, offer of help in the form of group classes plus personal training. How’s that go over with clients?

Brian (12:00):

So the first thing that people say is, wow, that sounds great. And we don’t sell the hybrid as like, Oh, you’re going to get personal training necessarily. We talk about it mostly as accountability and specific work on your goals. So everybody’s going to do the first successions exactly the same, right. We’re going to teach them what they would need to know to have success at our facility period. At that point, when they go into doing one time a week personal training, and three group classes, we’re talking about like, Hey, you’ve done a program before and you’ve fallen off. And maybe the program itself was great. You know, maybe you enjoyed it. And you’re just like, eh, I don’t feel like going. So I sleep in today instead of going. And we sell that extra PT as like, yeah, I’ll call you five minutes after you’re supposed to be there.

Brian (13:01):

If you don’t show and guess what they’re going to do at that appointment, they’re going to look at your attendance from last week and say, Hey, you didn’t come the days you said you were going to come and people instantly go, yeah, that’s exactly what I need. And in our no-sweat intros, we don’t talk about the price until they’ve said, yeah, that sounds awesome. You know? And like, it’s like you tell them exactly all the problems that they’ve been fighting for the last five years. And then you say, how does that sound? And they say, you have a solution for every problem that I’ve had. It’s like you’re reading my mind. And it’s because we listened to all the clients that had problems before and just stuck it in the package and said, this is why it’s that way.

Mike (13:47):

I can think of so many clients over the last 10 years at my gym, who would probably have stayed longer or enjoyed their time more if we had given them a hybrid package with personal sessions. And I’m thinking specifically of people who like despise double unders or just like, can’t stand the snatch or like muscle ups would make them leave the gym in fury, you know? And I’m sure, like, do you remember those kinds of people? And just like, I feel like I failed them, you know?

Brian (14:15):

Yeah. Yeah. And there’s no doubt that the extra attention goes a long way. And yeah, I think one of the things too is like, you just it’s like with any PT session, you get to work on whatever the client wants to work on or work towards their goals. And like that extra time is just, especially in the first five months is so vital. And, you know, in sales appointments now I’m a veteran salesman. Like I would tell people if I didn’t think they could have success on our basic package, I would not let them drop down. And I’m like, because I know the package through and through like, I would feel comfortable saying, no, you need the enhanced package. Otherwise I’m not letting you sign up. And, you know, I don’t have my staff sell that way, but like the value of that extra attention and being able to get somebody beyond or to give them the accountability or to reassure them that it’s okay that they’re sore or that, you know, they’re feeling frustrated about something, it keeps them around for much longer, like anybody that’s marginal, you’re going to keep around because you can build the relationship.

Mike (15:32):

So I love what you said there about the retention aspect of it. And even with the best systems it’s going to take you, you know, two, three weeks maybe to find someone who’s missing in a class because you just can’t track them all that well. And like someone will miss a week or something, that could be a work trip, something like that. But if you have that personal relationship, you’re going to notice as soon as they cancel one session. And by the second session, you know there’s an issue and you can fix these things. So it really gives you an opportunity to solve problems before they get out of hand with your members.

Brian (16:03):

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, the other piece, like, you know, like, you’re going to notice if they skip an appointment 100%. So it’s like, you’re guaranteeing that you’re going to have an attendance check built in because you have an appointment. We’re also gonna use some of that time in the PT session to check their group attendance, because some people need you to crack the whip and like, they want to get fit. That’s why they sign up and spent 500 plus dollars a month to sign up with you. And like, you owe them that, like, check their attendance and say, when are you coming and get in here? Like, we want you to have success. Like, that’s what you’re paying us for.

Mike (16:47):

So, yeah. And it’s so fascinating that that’s what’s happening in fitness now, is that what we’re seeing, or maybe it’s not that it’s changed, but I think we’re just realizing now is that we’re accountability providers probably more than we’re like squat coaches. And I’m seeing this with relation to like personal training, group classes, nutrition, habits coaching, all these different things. Like my wife runs a nutrition business and she does fitness as well, but I’m constantly hearing her speak to her clients. And it’s accountability and support. Sometimes they’re not even talking about like macros and food, other things. It’s just about like support. And it’s so interesting that that’s becoming, you know, coaching is becoming more than just fitness and sarcomeres and squat mechanics and all that stuff. Have you found that in your practice?

Brian (17:32):

Mike, if I could tell you how disappointed I am that I gained all these amazing coaching skills and then to find out that like, it’s all about just getting people to show up. Like it sucks, but I’m so glad that I found it out because you know what, that is great news for a lot of our, like mor, rookie gym owners. Like you can be an excellent, excellent facility without being an amazing coach. Get good at getting people to show up and like, your programming has to be reasonably good. So we want your coaching to be excellent. And like, you don’t have to be an excellent coach to start though. Like, if you’re really good at holding people accountable and getting people to show up like that, stuff’s going to come along.

Mike (18:29):

It’s so true. And like, I remember when I was starting out as a personal trainer, I was like, worried about diagramming the Krebs cycle and all this nonsense that like, it’s sure it might be important from an exercise physiology standpoint, but all I really needed to do was know how to make people smile and send a video text message that says come to the gym. It’s just so fascinating. I want to also ask you about something that’s slightly related here. I know you have an internal marketing position and I’m really fascinated about this because we’re talking about sort of the evolution of like what coaches are. And there weren’t a lot of gyms when I opened mine 10 years ago that had, at least micro gyms, that an internal marketing position, what are the roles, responsibilities? How do you pay this person? What does he or she do? I need to know everything here.

Brian (19:12):

So this came from right, like part of our role as like gym owners is we want to provide as much opportunity for our staff as possible. Right. And you know, there’s a lot of your coaches, like they could go start their own gym and they don’t because they don’t want to do marketing or do sales or do all these other things that like are really hard work they’re not helping people on the floor and they signed up to help people on the floor. So when we’re trying to sell specialty programs, for example, like you go, Hey, you know what, James, I want you to run an awesome specialty program. Here’s what you should do. Right. And it’s like these Facebook posts and send these emails. And it was like, I had two coaches that went out and crushed it.

Brian (20:05):

And I had five other coaches that were like, I’d love to do a specialty program, but I don’t want to do any of that stuff. And you’re like, well, dang it. I want my members to get all the awesome stuff that’s in your head that you want to do. I want them to do it. Like they want to pay for it. All we got to do is like bridge the gap. And the obstacle that was in the way is they didn’t want to do the marketing piece. And so I had a staff member that was great at it. And he would do like two specialty programs or clinics or, you know, something else. And he would market them and sell them out. I was like, dude, you want to just do this for everybody else? You’re good at it.

Brian (20:47):

And, you know, I got a feeling that the coaches would be willing to take a little bit of a pay cut in order to have somebody else do this part. And he was like, yeah, I’d love to. And the coaches, like, so what we did is for like, those specialty programs is we were paying coaches four ninths to do it all and have at it. And we just took one ninth away and we give it to the internal marketer and pay the coaches three ninths. So like they can write their programming however they want. And they just show up on the day and like the internal marketer, like what his job is, is to go and ask the coach all the pertinent details on how long is the program, who’s it for, who’s it not for and getting it on our announcements board. This is our main whiteboard on the gym, writing on the side of that board so that people can see who signed up and get the fear of missing out going, send out, you know, for like, what’s essentially, you know, it’s in the modules, what Kaleda had for selling out a specialty program. And he does that piece and we sell out everything.

Mike (21:59):

And he makes not a commission, but he makes a percentage of that. So I guess it is a commission in a way, but everyone’s happy because the coaches don’t have to do the stuff they don’t want to do. He gets to do the stuff he’s good at. Does he do goal review sessions or anything like that? Any places where he can upgrade memberships?

Brian (22:16):

That person does. We consider any of our coaches who want to grow in our gym, like do goal review sessions. So not all of our coaches do them, but that particular person happens to do it, but it’s not part of the internal marketing position.

Mike (22:33):

Okay. That’s really interesting. So does he do other things as well? Like, does he do coaching and training as well?

Brian (22:39):

Yeah, he does. He does coaching. He does PT and yeah, so that position, you know, like our target for specialty programs is to run two specialty programs a month that sell out and he has an opportunity to make a couple hundred bucks a month doing that.

Mike (22:56):

And that’s the coolest part is that, you know, you often have in your gym, these coaches who are really, really good at coaching or certain things, and you’re asking them to do additional stuff. And our contention, I think, is to be really successful in the fitness industry, you kind of have to sell yourself and you have to do all these things. It’s maybe not enough anymore to be a tactician, but in the right business where you have roles and responsibilities and you can divide things up, you can certainly be that, you know, that tactician or that just straight up coach, because the business owner has created a place where you can thrive and be supported by other people. That’s really interesting that you’ve created this in your gym. How did this come about? Did you see this as a problem and struggle to solve it for years? Or was it something that you just like hit on right away and fixed, how that happen?

Brian (23:44):

Like when we were making our annual plan for, like 2019, it was all right, we’re putting specialty programs on the calendar. And it was like asking people, you know, do you want to be the coach for this thing and for this thing? And it was like, we had people that wanted to do it, and then they just didn’t want to do the marketing portion of it. And it was like, man, well, I don’t want to do all that myself. Like, I’m certainly if I’m going to put in all of the marketing effort and, you know, writing emails and doing this piece, then, well, I want to be a paid for a chunk of that. And it was like, well, that’s not really the point of the specialty program.

Brian (24:31):

Like it’s for somebody else on our team to have opportunity. I don’t want to steal all the opportunities, I want to focus on, you know, driving the whole business for not just this one small component of it. And so it was like, somebody can do this, so let’s figure out who’s going to be good at it. And let’s make it happen. So it kind of came out of necessity, but also like just being creative and saying like, somebody else can do this part. Like let’s figure out who it is. And I think we’ll have success with it and it’s turned out great.

Mike (25:07):

Yeah. And the reason I’m digging into this is because I haven’t spoken to a gym owner about this sort of thing before, and it’s interesting to see how it relates to ARM, because you said that you’re selling out all your specialty programs. So these are, I’m guessing these are current members who buy into the specialty program or, you know, add something on. And in these specialty programs, you always know that you have the opportunity to essentially sell ongoing coaching and personal training after the fact where it’s like, yes, the Olympic lifting program is over, but no, you don’t have to stop working on it because we have hybrid programs. We have individual sessions and all this other stuff. So this marketing position that fills specialty programs really contributes to your ARM. Do you get that sense?

Brian (25:45):

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if we sell out to specialty programs, it adds probably 30, $30 to our ARM on a given month. And like, and that’s not even considering the upsell opportunity or the upgrade opportunities that come from running the specialty programs. I mean, that’s just the front end of the specialty program itself. So yeah, it’s absolutely vital.

Mike (26:14):

We just published an article by Brooks DiFiore, one of your colleagues on the mentorship team. And he’s talking about how to sell specialty coaching all year long. And basically what he does is he just uses specialty programs and he tells people, you know, how they can continue afterwards. And he really lets people know that especially programs aren’t the be-all and end-all, there is always an opportunity for you to work on the thing that you want to. And it seems so obvious when he laid it out in this article, but I didn’t think of it.

Brian (26:44):

Absolutely. His article is dynamite. And I can tell you, like, we haven’t been at what he described in that article, we have not implemented to a T and you can bet that by the end, by the end of this quarter, we’re going to have that implemented into our specialty program. We’re going to sell a whole lot more PT just from that.

Mike (27:05):

Right. It’s just, you know, it solves that problem. It solves this problem that you always have coaches and athletes that say, can we make this a permanent program? But that inevitably the specialty program becomes kind of a dud where it originally had 20 people and now it has four and then maybe two, and then it’s just not really, it’s just not the thrill. You know, the thrill is gone, but the way he set it up, it gives an opportunity to a passionate coach and a passionate athlete to continue working on something while still maintaining that specialty of the specialty program rather than beating it to death, you know, all day everyday 24 seven. It’s such a neat concept. We’ll get that article linked to the show notes for you. So you can take a look at it. So Brian, as we close this out, you’ve got a big ARM and let’s say a gym owner’s ARM is low. And I’m sure as a mentor, you’ve worked with a lot of people who have this issue. We know we can drive it up with a rate increase. We have a formula for that and so forth, but let’s leave that out for now. What is the first thing you would do if you wanted to make an ARM number move in a gym where it’s just too low?

Brian (28:07):

The first thing is having onboarding packages that start at—the lowest onboarding package that you have starts at a monthly rate higher at your ARM goal or higher.

Mike (28:23):

So you’re basically, you’re saying, let’s say my ARM needs to be 205. That means my basic or my lowest, my discounted package is going to be no lower than 205. Now someone out there is going to say my current ARM is 110. There’s no way I can offer 205. How do you get around that? How do you change their minds and help them figure out a way to provide value that equals 205 or whatever that number might be?

Brian (28:47):

Oh, Mike. The short answer is like, there’s a lot of gyms doing it and you know, three and a half years ago about charging more. And I got to tell you, it’s just the experience that a client gets. Like you ask somebody after they finish your onboarding, how they liked it. And they can’t stop talking about it after you’ve charged one person $300 a month for it. And they are just raving and they say it was worth every penny. And you’re like, let’s go higher. And, you know, I think you just got to give it a go, like give the higher price onboarding package a go, and you’re going to learn to love it yourself. Like it’s just getting somebody over the hump to charge it just one time and see how much their client enjoys it and loves it and says it’s worth it, then mentee is sold on it forever. I mean, it’s there. The value is there.

Mike (29:55):

That’s the thing. We’re not, we’re not talking about gouging or we’re not talking about jacking up and inflating prices. What we’re talking about is providing the value. So if you know, and Chris has said this in his blogs, you need to be worth it. Right. So if you’re going to say, and again, I’m using the 205 number. If I’m going to sell a minimum package of 205, I need to find a way to make sure that that is so packed with value that the client succeeds and says, wow, this should have been 305. You know? And the pressure is really on the affiliate owner or the gym owner to do that. But once that happens and you start selling them, the clients confirm over and over again that what you’re doing is worth the money. Is that your experience?

Brian (30:30):

Yeah, absolutely. And just to go along, like when I started out as a personal trainer, right. I was like, I moved halfway across the country with a suitcase and I got a $20 bike and rode to work 10 miles each way. Like this is true story. And so like when I was first selling personal training, like somebody’s paying $50 for a half an hour with me, like these guys are crazy. But I’m like, Oh my gosh, they just paid $50 for a half an hour with me. I gotta do way better. Like I was trying to pack $150 worth of effort and care into that half an hour. And what I ended up with was just a bunch of super happy clients. I’m always trying to over service. Like if, if I’m charging a hundred dollars, like I’m trying to provide $150 in value and what you want at the end of like, when you ask that client what they think of your service, you want them to say it’s worth every penny and I would recommend it to anybody.

Brian (31:32):

And if they’re saying that when you’re charging $10 for a session or $30 or a hundred dollars, you know that you could charge more or that you should be charging more. And like, at some point you, you keep on working your way up to the point where it’s like, until somebody even questions the price after doing the service, you’re on a roll. Like there’s no price that you can’t go to. Like your clients will tell you the value to them. And it’s like just finding a way to just figure out every possible way and feel the pressure of what you’re charging to go I’m going to provide $80 worth of service right now.

Mike (32:10):

And that’s where the excellence comes in. For a long time, a lot of us in the fitness industry focused on excellence without systems and marketing and all the other things, roles, responsibilities, operations, all the things we should have been doing in addition to that. But you bring it home there for us, that if you want to charge and earn a high ARM, you have to provide equivalent value. And that’s the excellence that we all need surrounded by systems and all the cool stuff that our mentors can teach listeners. Brian, thank you so much. I always love talking to CrossFit Jungle Gym. I love the name. Thanks for being here and sharing your ARM secrets.

Brian (32:40):

Thanks so much for having me, Mike. Good luck, everybody.

Mike (32:45):

That was Brian Zimmerman on Two-Brain Radio. I’m your host, Mike Warkentin. Thanks for listening. Don’t miss any episodes of Two-Brain Radio. Please hit subscribe on the way out.

 

The post Using “Hybrid” Packages to Increase Average Revenue Per Member appeared first on Two-Brain Business.

How Many People Should Be in Your Class?

We have the data.

There’s no more need for guessing. You don’t have to try and consider “culture” or balance what you like against what’s proven to work. You don’t have to wonder anymore.

In this series, I’m going to share proof from the largest data set ever gathered in the microgym industry. I’m going to tell you how many people should be in your classes. Then I’m going to tell you how much each class is paying you. Finally, I’m going to tell you what to do with those “classes” that are only attended by one or two people.

First, we’ll go over what the data says.

Two-Brain Data

One of the two key metrics in your business is length of engagement (LEG): how long a client is likely to stay in your gym.

Read more about LEG here: “Don’t Skip LEG Day”

The other key measurement of retention in your gym is adherence, which is how often a client shows up in relation to the plan they’ve purchased.

Read more here: “Retention and Adherence”

Both long-term retention and adherence are highest with 1:1 training. This makes sense: A client has an appointment to meet with someone, has paid a premium for that appointment and is likely to keep it. This 1:1 setting is also where clients make the fastest progress, so they have both intrinsic and extrinsic motivation to show up.

But retention and adherence drop for 2:1 training. There are a few reasons for this. In my experience, the added partner accountability is offset by partner conflict. For example: “Mary is tied up at work, so we’ll just cancel our 2:1 training for both of us and make it up next week.” Instead of one partner dragging the other into the gym, one partner can just as easily derail the other.

The numbers stay the same between two clients and six. But then they go up.

A class of seven people has the second-best retention and adherence rates after 1:1 training. The benefits of groups really start to show for the gym at seven people.

And those values don’t change much until you climb over 12 people. But retention and adherence values drop on the 13th person and then keep dropping faster and faster after that.

Now, I love coaching big groups. I can remember one crazy day when 32 people showed up on Saturday morning, and we had a riot. But the data makes sense: In groups larger than about a dozen, people can feel as if “no one will miss me if I’m not there,” or the coach’s attention might be split too many ways.

Of note: This retention data is based on one coach. Adding a second coach might solve part of the problem, and adding a client success manager (CSM) might solve the other part.

In summary: The people who do personal training have the best retention rates. But scaling up your service means coaching people in groups. Keep your groups in the seven to 12 range for maximal retention.

Don’t worry if you have huge groups or tiny groups. In the next post in this series, I’ll tell you how to identify your best and worst slots. And in the final post, I’ll tell you how to drop your worst groups.

The post How Many People Should Be in Your Class? appeared first on Two-Brain Business.

From $70 to $284 Per Member: Storm Strout’s Revenue Revolution

Mike (00:02):

Can you make six figures without chasing hundreds and hundreds of gym members? You can, but you have to set your prices correctly. Today, we’re talking to a gym owner whose average revenue per member is $284 per month. Storm Strout is here right after this.

Chris (00:16):

Hey, it’s Chris Cooper here. Programming is the service that you deliver to your clients. So I partnered with Brooks DiFiore, who had one of the highest adherence rates for his group classes in the world to build TwoBrainprogramming.com. Now we built this for Two-Brain gyms and we give them free access in our mentorship program, but I’m now making this available to the public. Programming that’s proven to improve retention and cash flow in your gym. Visit TwoBrainprogramming.com to get it. Your gym’s programming won’t attract new clients, but it can help you keep your clients longer. Good programming includes the stuff you know, like your benchmarks, novelty, skills, progressions, leaderboards, but great programming contains something more. It’s a link between each client’s fitness goals and the workout of the day. Your coaches need to tell the clients more than what they’re going to do every day. They need to explain why they’re doing it and how it will help them achieve their specific goals. Gyms whose coaches could explain the why connection had a 25% better retention rate during lockdowns. Imagine how that translates into better retention when things get back to normal and a better bottom line at the end of every month. That’s TwoBrainprogramming.com. Take a look.

Mike (01:32):

This is Two-Brain Radio. I’m your host, Mike Warkentin. Let’s do some quick math, shall we? Let’s say you want your gym to gross 300 grand. If you charge each member an average of a hundred dollars per month, you need 250 members to make 300K. That’s a ton of people, a lot of marketing and a lot of retention work. But if you charge an average of $300 per member, you’d only need 83 members to gross 300 grand. I know what you’re thinking. No one will pay $300 per month. That’s impossible. I’m here to tell you you’re wrong. And so is Storm Strout of Veneration in Ohio. He was one of Two-Brain’s average revenue per member leaders for December, 2020. We call this ARM or ARM. Storm was number 12 on a top 20 list that ran from $262 to a huge $510 per month. Storm. Thanks for jumping on to, Two-Brain Radio. How are you today?

Storm (02:22):

I’m doing great, Mike, thank you so much for having me on.

Mike (02:24):

It’s my pleasure. I’m going to ask you this. I’ll set the table and tell me the story. Five years ago, 2015, you’re 19. You founded your own company. If I had told you then that you’d have an ARM on of $284, what would you have said to me?

Storm (02:37):

At that time the first thing that I would have done is asked you what an ARM was cause I would have had no idea. And then once you explained to me what I was looking for in an ARM, I would have been very overwhelmed by a figure like 284. At that time, our only membership option was $70 per month. And that was for everything as many classes a week. It it was all you could fitness. And not only did I have a very low membership rate, majority of those people were on a discount, I would say like 90% of them for everything that you could think of. So that would have been a very overwhelming figure. And.

New Speaker (03:30):

I couldn’t have pictured that whatsoever.

Mike (03:34):

So 70 bucks and you’ve got discounts in place. How is the business doing and how are you surviving at that point?

Storm (03:40):

So we were very fortunate because we started young, my wife and I, she was my girlfriend at the time we were 19. And so we were living at home and I had saved up some money prior to starting the business. I was training out of my dad’s garage, and also working some construction. I had my vision in mind, I’m stockpiling so I can buy some barbells. And fortunately we had a little bit of money in the savings, so we didn’t take any kind of pay, for, I think it was around like 15 or 16 months, which I wouldn’t recommend. But we didn’t know any better. I had no mentors at the time. I kind of just went in blind, so we were living the dream.

Storm (04:30):

It’s actually funny. I remember there’s a picture of me. I thought it was the coolest thing. I ratchet-strapped a hammock in the rig and instead of like working on things like building my ARM or my LEG, I was hanging out in the hammock in the rig. So I didn’t know any better. But to answer your question, because we weren’t taking anything, we never, I mean, we were paying rent from day one. Like we were never in a panic, at that time to try to pay our bills or anything. But sooner than later I realized that this was, you know, if I’m going to call this a business, it needs to be a business and stop treating it like a hobby. And also I needed to eat food. So that’s when things started to turn around for the better.

Mike (05:21):

So you had kind of a safety net in place there at the start that allowed you to kind of make some mistakes. And like I did kind of the same thing where we opened our gym, but I still had a full-time job. And so there was a little bit of backup and I did the same thing where I didn’t take any money out of the business and it was my goal just to make it break even. And, you know, honestly, I succeeded, but I didn’t do a whole lot better than that until we started doing, you know, working with Two-Brain and putting some actual effort in. So fair enough to say that you started as a hobby, but then realized very quickly that you had to, you know, when you got rid of the safety net, you had to make it a real business.

Storm (05:53):

Yeah. I don’t want to like bash myself or my wife because we never came in, like I always took it serious. Like I always wanted to be professional. But I just didn’t, I didn’t know that this world existed. I didn’t know that that networks like Two-Brain existed and that people were doing what we’re doing.

Mike (06:16):

Yeah, it’s not like you didn’t care about the business want it to succeed. You just, like, I did not know that there was a way to figure out prices besides guessing, you know.

Storm (06:25):

By just going lower than the guy down the street and even lower than the one beside him and like that, I am a very classic example of that.

Mike (06:36):

Yeah. So you said your early era and let’s be generous. We’ll just say it was 70, even though you had some discounts in place that might’ve driven it down. So we’re looking at 284 now, you know, a huge improvement. I’m going to ask about some specific aspects of ARM in a bit, but I’ll ask you a really broad one just to start here. What’s the one thing that’s been most responsible for this new high ARM? Like, is it value, revenue, diversity, marketing, onboarding, what is the one thing you’d put your finger on?

Storm (07:03):

There’s so many variables that play into this, but it certainly has to be private coaching. Private coaching drives a lot of revenue. That’s synonymous with value. Certainly. So, private coaching would be the answer to that question.

Mike (07:18):

That’s like PT as opposed to group classes.

Storm (07:22):

Exactly. Yeah. Personal training. Private coaching. Yes.

Mike (07:25):

Yeah. I don’t know if you—I’ll ask you a question that makes me look stupid, but I’ll ask it anyways. I didn’t know that you could do CrossFit in a one-on-one setting for a long time. Did you?

Storm (07:35):

No, I thought, I don’t know what—it never even crossed my mind, which was so silly because I started training people one-on-one, two on one in the garage.

Mike (07:48):

So did I!

Storm (07:48):

Like I had such a beautiful opportunity to have this story where like, we translated that over into like a bricks and mortar location. And that’s how we scale the business. But no, as soon as I got my actual spot, I was like classes. Let’s drop the price and fill them up.

Mike (08:11):

Yeah. You know, I did same thing where I remember vividly in my driveway teaching the snatch in my driveway to people and filming them and show them videos and stuff, and we’re doing CrossFit workouts. And then we open a gym and all of a sudden personal training ceases to exist. And we’re going to put everyone in group classes, whether they like it or not, that’s the way it’s going to be. And I’m like, wait a second. I was making $50 an hour before, and now I’m making like six, like, it didn’t hit me until I worked with a mentor.

Storm (08:38):

Yeah. What a silly thing to miss. But that is exactly how it played out.

Mike (08:44):

So, like you said, again, I’m putting you on the spot making you give me one thing related to ARM when it’s such a multifactorial situation. So let’s dig into a couple of the other things, I’ll ask you first, have you ever increased rates, or you said you didn’t set them properly, but how did you get around that rate increase? Was it just, you know, you gotta grandfather a few people, I guess that’s a grandmother, we’ll use a non sexist term here, but did you let some people kind of hang out and bring new members in? Did you do a big rate increase? Did you some small ones, how did you get moving from 70 bucks?

Storm (09:15):

It was really fun to look back at this because, we went from 70 and then I don’t even know why, because again, I wasn’t—my mind was not in the right place. I wasn’t reverse engineering our rates, so I just, I was like, I think we’re starting to provide more value, like a few months in, so I bumped them from 70 to 105 and then from 105 to 115.

Mike (09:43):

Was that for everyone right at that time?

Storm (09:45):

No. So that was people that are coming in and still no type of onboarding at this time. So, you know, I’ve got members working out beside each other that are all paying different rates, classic mistake. Right? So, when we moved from our first location into our current location, which was so one year in we moved facilities and then we’ve been at our new spot for four years now. That is when I went from that 105 to 115, and then I started getting a grip and kind of wrapping my mind around where this thing was headed. Our current rate is 140 and it was at that time that I did a price raise for everyone. I did not—to give a little bit information on the price raise, just because if you’re looking at like 70 to 140 and someone is in that position, that would be overwhelming. I did not do that. I didn’t raise rates any more than $30 for that particular membership that they were on.

Mike (10:58):

We and our mentors work with clients to figure out exactly what the right numbers are like, there are systems for this. And like I said earlier, I didn’t realize it, but there are systems to figure out your pricing based on what you want to make. So our mentors look at everything individually. If you’re listening out there and saying, Oh my God, these rate increases are terrifying. We actually have an easy system that helps you do it. And it’s sometimes it’s incremental. Sometimes it’s just removing discounts, but there’s a whole process in place. And we teach clients exactly how to do this. And we’re not going to just jack up all your rates by double and have all your members flee to the hills, that doesn’t happen. There are ways to do this. So I’m really glad you brought that up because, you know, a rate doubling isn’t recommended practice necessarily.

Storm (11:38):

Mike, I would like to speak on that for a second too. I did this prior to working with Two-Brain, I did my rate increase and I was close, but I did not hit the nail on the head, because there’s a lot guessing involved and I did not use the systems and I was not leaning on Josh, my mentor. So it would have been a much smoother, much prettier scenario if I would have done it the right way. And I would’ve found Two-Brain earlier. So yeah, absolutely.

Mike (12:11):

And for my part, I mean, we did a rate increase. I wouldn’t have done it. I would have been like, you know, worse than you. I would have been scared. Right. I wouldn’t have known how to do it. I just didn’t do it. And we set our rates and I think it was 2010 or 11. And I left them till like 2019 or something like that. Even when I knew, like in 2013, literally I had in 2013, I knew the rates were too low. I actually entered the new rates in Zen Planner. And then I sat on them for six years. It was probably about a hundred thousand dollar error because I’d never put them in place because I was scared to do it. And then when eventually we did it, we had members come up to us and say, wow, I’m so glad you did that. We want you to stick around.

Storm (12:48):

Exactly. Yeah. I don’t want to beat a dead horse here and stay on this topic. I know we’re here to talk about ARM, but on that, on that price raise topic, man, it is, I’m not going to sugar coat it. That was like, that was probably one of the worst periods of my life, just because of the anxiety around it. I wouldn’t want to admit that, but yeah, it was awful. And it turns out that you make it through it and it’s a really, really good way to make sure you have the right people in your organization. So that’s all I have to say on that.

Mike (13:23):

You’re at 140 now, is that correct?

Storm (13:25):

Correct. And we have been there for quite some time.

Mike (13:28):

So let’s take a look at that for a sec. So you’re at 140 now yet your ARM is 284. Now I don’t see your rates on your site and you know, but I know that you offer group training, PT, nutrition, remote coaching, you’ve got a kids program. So that rate of 140 has gotta be balanced out by some people that are paying quite a bit more than that through other add-ons or other services stuff. Tell me about how that 140 gets to 284.

Storm (13:55):

Yeah, absolutely. This is a fun topic because I’ll start with nutrition coaching. This is one that we actually struggled with to set a price point, because at this time now we kind of, we understand how to set a price point, right? How to work backwards from everything from the macro like perfect day, you know, all the way down to determining price point and what we ran into, we started our nutrition coaching. It was at 120 a month. This is in addition to whatever your fitness membership is. You know, there’s no discount for bundling or anything. It’s a separate service, oftentimes a separate coach. So we landed on 120 and then after a few months, my wife, who’s our head nutrition coach, and I, we had to sit down and say, you know, we talk to our incoming clients and our current clients about the value of nutrition coaching so much so that we say, you know, if someone is running into a budget issue when it comes to starting with us, we will say, if you’re going to go one route, if you’re going to choose one thing, make it nutrition coaching, let’s start there.

Mike (15:05):

That’s really interesting.

Storm (15:05):

Yeah. And I was having a really hard time speaking out of that side of my mouth while at the same time it was a lower rate for no apparent reason. So, today our unlimited group class coaching membership is 140 and our nutrition coaching is 140 as well.

Mike (15:30):

I’m doing some quick math in my head. I’m starting to see a 280 come in there.

Storm (15:34):

Yeah. So it works and our clients appreciate it. There’s so much value in our nutrition coaching, that we would be doing our coaching team and our clients a disservice by charging less than that.

Mike (15:52):

So that’s nutrition and those two services add up and we honestly know, people in CrossFit and other places, obviously we’ve said you can’t really have fitness and nutrition separately, if you really want to make progress. Like sure you can work out, but if you’re eating like crap it doesn’t cancel out and if you’re not working out and eating really well, you still have, you’re missing part of it. So those two things pair together so nicely. Tell me a little about some of these other programs that you’ve got. Like I see, you know, got obviously group, you’ve got nutrition. Talk to me a little bit about this PT, because that’s the one that you pointed to as one of the huge things or the one-on-one coaching that’s a huge part of your ARM.

Storm (16:27):

Absolutely. Yeah. This would probably be a good time to, I can kind of give like a revenue breakdown. And so 50% of our revenue comes from our group class coaching, which is really awesome to look at now because just two years ago, 100% of our revenue was group class.

Mike (16:47):

That’s a huge change in two years.

Storm (16:49):

Yes. And very purposeful. And that’s, you know, to touch on like, that’s what we have focused on in our storytelling. Like our external marketing, like we talk about the value of having a coach, a private coach. So, 50% of our revenue is group class. 30% is our private coaching, leaving 15% nutrition coaching. And then our youth program is brand new in 2021. And right now that’s at 5% of our revenue. So that is going to start piecing the math together of how we land on our current ARM.

Storm (17:31):

Half of our clients, 50% of our clients have multiple services.

Mike (17:36):

That’s interesting.

Storm (17:37):

Yeah. Whether that’s a combination of private coaching and nutrition coaching, or group class coaching, nutrition coaching, or even private coaching as well as some group.

Mike (17:48):

I like that, the hybrid stuff, I love that.

Storm (17:51):

It’s proven to be so successful with multiple different avatars. So for example, we have a woman right now who just had a surgery and she was crushing it in class. She thrives with the community and being pushed and pulled by her friends. But she had a surgery that would make group class very inappropriate for her. So we transitioned her over into private coaching. And in time, like her plan is to graduate from all private, to like a hybrid of some private, some group. And she’ll likely come back to group. But that’s been a really awesome service offering and combination of service offerings.

Mike (18:41):

And, you know, what’s so funny, again, my ignorance of like, not being able to have the concept of personal training and group classes, it was so funny when we talked to Two-Brain, started working on this stuff. We said, what if we just, you know, as the mentor suggested, go and talk to some of your members who are struggling with something and say, do you want to book 30 minutes with me and fix your double unders once and for all? And we did it and they actually wanted that service and purchased it. And all of a sudden, you look at your ARM, go from, I think we were charging a 157 or something like that for group classes, plus, you know, $40 or whatever it was for a half hour PT session. That’s 210, right. So like things change. And it was just asking the clients, I didn’t have to sell the stuff. I’m a horrible salesperson, but just ask them, do you want some help on double unders? Yes. Oh, OK.

Storm (19:26):

Super awesome. And obviously that’s a win-win situation for both. Well, I guess a win-win win, which is what you want, right. For the company, for the client, of course, for the coach as well. One of our next focuses here in Q1 of 2021 is actually skill sessions because we are missing a huge opportunity there to help. We are like our private coaching revenue is really people that are coming in and have no desire to train in group and work. They just work one-on-one with their coach period.

Mike (20:02):

After you gave me the revenue breakdown, I gotta like set a calendar alert for February, 2022. And ask you to tell me, come back on the show and tell me what your kids program, what percentage that is.

Storm (20:13):

Yeah, for sure. We have goals in place and we are pursuing them and so far so good. So I’ll be excited to report back on that.

Mike (20:21):

Let me ask you a question about this. When you said that your group used to be about a hundred percent, now it’s about 50%. Did that revenue go down or did it stay consistent, but you added in all the other stuff?

Storm (20:33):

Great question. Our group class revenue has actually been within a couple hundred bucks steady for a long time.

Mike (20:45):

So you’re just straight up growing then.

Storm (20:47):

Yeah, probably, correct. It’s probably been like two years. And at first I was discouraged by that, just not having experience and no time under my belt, but it is indicative of our focus. And again, our storytelling, like we’ve been trying to reach the people that want the one-on-one attention in our area that’s not being—that was a huge opportunity and gap in the market that people wanted to do this CrossFit thing. And I think that they understood that it was valuable and that you can have success, but they were terrified of group or just had no desire to work in a group. And we filled that gap. And, yeah, so it has been growth.

Chris (21:35):

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Mike (22:15):

Yeah. So you’re selling the higher value service, like, you know, I never thought about that before, again, Chris Cooper, Two-Brain founder, was the one who got me to understand this. Group training is your discount option. For me, I thought it was the expensive option, right. But in reality, group training, you don’t get as much attention. It doesn’t cost as much because if you break it down by class, you’re probably paying like seven, eight, 10 bucks a class or whatever it is. Whereas with personal service, you’re paying, you know, 50, 70, $90 an hour or whatever it is. So you’re actually selling the harder stuff. And then you’ve always got that group option available as your quote unquote discount option. Correct?

Storm (22:48):

That is correct. And it is so important that the, I mean, obviously first the owner CEO of the company, and then most definitely the person that is doing your consultations or your no-sweat intros understand that and then that they embody that, because once you get that and you truly believe in that, it makes sales and helping so much easier. That’s such valuable thing to understand.

Mike (23:21):

And if you’re listening and you want to learn more about that, get Chris Cooper’s book “Help First.” if you hate selling, this is the way to not hate selling. It works. I don’t like selling and this one changed my mind. So get that book. Do you mind telling me Storm a little bit about some of the pricing for your one-on-one or personal packages?

Storm (23:38):

Absolutely. This is something that we did, right, Mike from the start.

Mike (23:43):

Congratulations! I love it when that happens.

Storm (23:43):

Because I don’t have any terrible horror stories about, Oh my gosh, this is actually funny how the numbers play out. It costs $70 per hour session, which used to be my monthly rate.

Mike (24:01):

That is awesome. Oh man, you got to get like a t-shirt for that or something. You know.

Storm (24:06):

I guess I didn’t even put two and two together until we’re talking about it now. That’s pretty cool. But private coaching is $70 for the session. That’s for 60 minutes, we do offer a 30 minute. And that’s $40 for the session. That is what you were speaking on earlier that’s most utilized in like the skill session fashion. However I did give you the example of the woman that we’re working with that recently had a surgery. She started back 30 minutes at a time. That’s all that was appropriate for her. So that’s our private coaching rates. And we definitely don’t yeah, right now we don’t have anyone that trains less than two times a week.

Mike (24:51):

OK, good. That’s cool.

Storm (24:53):

Yeah, we would do that. I mean, one time a week, four times a month is certainly better than zero, but I don’t want you just spending $70 a session four times a month to see very little results. I don’t want to sell you something that’s going to not really provide value and results. So, our private coaching clients train minimum of two times a week, and then we do have some clients that train up to five times per week with their coach privately.

Mike (25:23):

Yeah. So there’s some ARM numbers just do some easy math that shows me some ARM numbers right there. That’s really interesting.

Storm (25:29):

Yeah, absolutely. It’s a few women that train privately five times a week with nutrition coaching. At that point, you’re looking north of $1,500 a month.

Mike (25:43):

And those, it’s crazy because if you told me again, we’ll go back to like 2010 Mike, if you had told me it is possible to sell like a thousand dollars or $1,500 package in a fitness thing, I would have been like you are out of your mind, that is not possible. And yet the more I talk to Two-Brain gym owners, the more I hear that it is possible, of course not everyone is going to do that. Right? Like you have people that just want to come for group classes and their budget. That’s the budget item for them or whatever, other people like that. But then there are other people and my wife has experimented with this. She runs more of a nutritional online service. There are people out there who want these services. Like, it’s incredible to realize that, like, again, going back 2015 Storm, if I had said you were selling $1,500 packages, would it have blown your mind?

Storm (26:25):

Oh my gosh, I would’ve told you that you’re crazy. And then I would have tried to blame it on all kinds of things, right? Like demographic or whatever. This was definitely Coop, Chris Cooper, a hundred percent, whether it was in one of my original conversations with him or in his books. And he said it nicer than this, like much nicer than this, but like you’re projecting the fact that you’re broke on all your clients. So, and that was, I mean, that couldn’t be any more true. I would have never paid that, $1,500 a month for a coach, but now I, you know, I pay a rock climbing coach to teach me how to rock climb. I have paid for all different kinds of coaching because I see the value in that. And, yeah, that was a huge missed opportunity back then.

Mike (27:21):

Yeah. I keep thinking back to that old, CrossFit shirt that, you know, your workout is my warm-up or whatever it was, and it’s kind of funny. I keep thinking back to you, it’s like, Oh, you know, my group rate is now my PT rate.

Storm (27:35):

It’s awesome.

Mike (27:37):

It’s a super funny one, like, congratulations for doing that. That’s such a cool story because there were certainly gym owners who didn’t make that decision and are now out of the game. And then there are other gym owners who are still kind of struggling with that and chasing the high volume churn fest you know, 300 members. And Chris has been blogging about this and like when he lays it out and you actually think about it, if you go for 300 members, your retention is not going to be a hundred percent. It’s probably going to be lower than 95%. And that means you’re going to have to, like, you’re going to have to intake like 17 members a month just to stay even like, that is unbelievable. And so if you’re chasing those high, high volume things at low rates, that is a tough game and some people have won it. They are out there. It wasn’t going to be me, you know, and we’re going the other direction where we’re looking for smaller number of high value clients. And so I love talking about this. I’ll ask you this. Do you have plans to increase that ARM further or are you just looking to maintain it and then kind of grow those kids’ programs and those things that are new? What’s your kind of outlook on the future for this?

Storm (28:37):

That’s a great question. You kind of touched on it earlier with the concept of like, of skill sessions. That is definitely one area. We kind of have like a three-prong approach to this, again, heading into the new year with our annual plan. One is specialty courses, as well as like skill session opportunities. So you had described, you want to work together for 30 minutes, maybe two to three times and put this double-under thing to bed once and for all. So skill session opportunity there, as well as, we have, I believe it’s at least one specialty course planned per quarter this year. And we anchored those off of our, like our boulder items, being the Open, we have an in-house competition event that we do. And we do some global testing. We kind of anchored our specialty courses off of those things. So that would be one prong. And we can dig into those more if you would like, but we’re really just experimenting with them for the first time. So, the second would be semi-private training, private coaching, but scaling that to two on one, three on one, that is, we have had success with that so far this year, and it increases our coaches’ effective hourly rate in a rapid fashion.

Mike (30:11):

And that’s like the original old school Greg Glassman plan, you know, where one-on-one training. It’s like, I don’t have any more time, but if I double it up, I make more money. The client pays less and you keep doing that. And all of a sudden that’s how CrossFit started. Again, the irony of that whole story is that that’s literally how the CrossFit movement started. And yet almost every affiliate owner didn’t realize that you could sell PT, you know.

Storm (30:32):

So crazy that we missed it.

Mike (30:34):

We all missed it because we thought again, we’re not dumb, like what happened was we got into these groups with these amazing music’s cranking and people are sweating and high-fiving, and we’re just having an awesome time getting fit. That was so fun that we didn’t possibly realize that anyone didn’t want to do that.

Mike (30:50):

And, you know, what’s interesting is as I kind of aged a little bit and as I became, you know, I’m an introvert, but I ran an extroverted business, as I started to realize that, like I don’t recharge in those environments. I started wanting to train alone. I would have been, I would have had better success with fitness in the last couple of years one-on-one than I would’ve in a group simply because my circumstances changed a lot. And I that’s when I really started to realize this and Chris of course helped me figure that out. But it’s so funny that, you know, we’re all going back to this realizing, Oh, do you have a friend who wants to train at the same time? Let’s do that.

Storm (31:24):

Exactly. Which we can marry perfectly with our affinity marketing. What is the word I wanna use? Like belief systems? Like not only, Hey, who in your life that you care about and love can I help achieve the same amazing results that you’ve achieved? You know, we can marry that concept with, Hey, let’s literally train within the same hour and also save both of you a little bit of coin. Those live together beautifully.

Mike (31:57):

And then the cool part about it too, is exactly what you said, where this helps build careers for coaches too, because you look at that hour now. So let’s say you have two clients at $70 and you give them a little bit of a discount. Maybe it’s $55 each and two on one or whatever it is. That’s now 110, they’re both paying less than the 70, but your coach is getting a greater percentage. We at Two-Brain do the 44% thing or 4/9ths. The coach is gonna make more for that hour. The clients are going to get slightly less individual attention, but they’re still going to get quite a bit. They get a small discount on it. Everyone kind of wins in that scenario. And then at that point, you’ve got trainers who can actually make a living as opposed to scraping by on like eight hours at 20 bucks. And I hate my life and I’m not making enough money.

Storm (32:36):

Well, and not only are they going to hate their life, not making enough money, that’s going to last for a year if you’re lucky to go work for a landscaping company because they need to eat.

Mike (32:51):

Yup. And that happens so often in fitness where some of the most educated, best coaches out there just couldn’t make enough. And so one of the great things about the Two-Brain program now is it’s giving coaches not necessarily gym owners, but coaches within successful gyms, the opportunity to make great careers. And as a result, the owners make great careers, as well. As we wrap this up again, you were the 2015 guy with the $70 group rate, gym owners that are skeptical because they are out there listening. And they’re saying, Oh, this is impossible. I could never do the 284. What could they do today? Just to start moving in the right direction, wherever they’re at, what would you recommend first?

Storm (33:25):

That’s an awesome question. And I want to make sure that I answer that in a very actionable manner, because again, back to, you know, to bring this full circle, when we started this conversation, I used the word overwhelming. It’s extremely overwhelming, man. It’s overwhelming today. Like looking at these things and you know, keeping the wheels turning, keeping the flywheel spinning. So let’s make it actionable. And I would say the first of which is you need to have something to offer. Like you need to have something of high value and in turn a high ticket item, you need to have that service. In the early days, I was accidentally landing on private coaching and literally chasing that person out of there to try to get in the group. I didn’t realize what I was working with like, and sure enough, you know, those people aren’t with us anymore. Cause it’s not what they wanted, but I just, I didn’t have a grip on the service offering. I didn’t know what I was offering. So that would be the first thing is just decide what you can offer of high value. And you do that by talking to people, whether they are your current clients or people that you see in the little coffee shop and asking them what they want to see, what do you want? What do you need? How can I help you?

Mike (34:43):

It’s such a great question. What would, if your rate, let’s say it’s $200, I’ll just use that example. If that’s your average revenue per member that you’re looking for, what is valuable enough that people would pay $200 for it? And then you build that service around and create this incredible value. And then there’s pressure on you to deliver that value. But of course you can, because you’re a great coach and trainer and you care about your clients, but you also have to put some of those preconceptions on the shelf, which is, you know, I’m just stealing your thunder here on that, because you said it earlier, you can’t put your budget on clients. If you’re starting out, like that’s such a mistake. And if you’re not making a lot of money, it’s easy to say, no one’s going to pay me for that. But you are not your clients. I’m really glad you mentioned that earlier.

Storm (35:23):

For sure. And it’ll force you to rise to the occasion. You know, Mike, maybe we look back and 70 bucks a month is what it was worth at the time. Like that might be the case because I mean, I had a 12 hours under my belt a level one, and some training in the garage. Like, so maybe that’s what it’s worth. But when you are asking questions, like, what do you want? And if you have someone who, you know, let’s paint the picture, she’s 40 mid forties and she’s significantly overweight and wants to do whatever it takes to get back to where she was 20 years ago. Like, can you really provide that with group class coaching, no nutrition coaching, and she’s just going to blend it with 12 other people? Probably not. So it’s going to force you to develop that high value service offering. So I’d say that’d be the first thing. And then the very next thing that you need to do is go sell one, like, just get a win, get yourself some proof of concept because that will lead to motivation. Even if you fall flat on your face, a couple of times, go sell one. And then I would say, share that story.

Mike (36:37):

Sorry to interrupt. Do you remember the first sale you made at your new rates and how relieving it was?

Storm (36:42):

I remember I do remember that and it was relieving later, but in the moment, I couldn’t believe that it was happening.

Mike (36:50):

Right. And it just feels so good. Cause we did the same thing. We raised our rates. And we did it first. I think, believe, I believe we did it for incoming clients first. I can’t remember exactly how we pulled it off, but at some point, and then we also developed some high ticket items. And when we actually sold one of those, my jaw has dropped because I didn’t think, I still had that preconception that I could not get rid of. So I thought it was interesting to ask you that one because, and you don’t even believe it’s happening. But then after a while you probably, at this point, I’m guessing that you don’t have a problem asking someone for a $1,500 package.

Storm (37:18):

No. And that’s exactly, and it comes back to proof of concept. We have sold it. We have created incredible results in short timelines from it. So now I believe in it. So that’s what, yeah, that would be my action step for someone is develop it, sell it, and then tell that story. Definitely externally for your next clients, but tell it internally, chances are someone listening to this probably has, you know, they probably have some form of group. If you were like where I was, you know, share the stories of the people that are having success in your one-on-one settings or with their nutrition coach. We’ve grown our nutrition coaching program in house because people are getting results and we make them famous first and foremost internally. So, again, that’s what I would recommend.

Mike (38:09):

Create it, sell it and share it. I love it. I’m going to have to book you, like I said, for 2022, and you’re gonna come back and tell us about our kids program. Will you do it?

Storm (38:17):

I would be honored. That would be incredible.

Mike (38:20):

Thank you so much for sharing your story. I really appreciate it Storm.

Storm (38:22):

Thank you so much for having me.

Mike (38:24):

That was Storm Strout on Two-Brain Radio. I’m your host, Mike Warkentin. Thank you for listening. Don’t miss any episodes of Two-Brain Radio. Please hit that subscribe button on your way out.

 

The post From $70 to $284 Per Member: Storm Strout’s Revenue Revolution appeared first on Two-Brain Business.

Taking Prices off Your Website? Read This First.

For many gym owners, taking prices off the website is a good idea.

But it’s not for everyone.

If either of the statements below is true, leave the prices on your website:

1. Your gym is successful enough that you don’t want to talk to every potential lead—especially those who are price shopping. I fall into this category.

2. You don’t have a plan to overcome price objections from potential clients (because you’re going to hear price objections from every client who doesn’t know your prices in advance).

Here’s What Happens When you Remove Prices From Websites

Removing your prices from your website will help you meet more people who have no idea what your service is worth.

In the early stages of gym ownership, that’s valuable: You want to talk to the early adopters who aren’t price sensitive. And, frankly, you need more reps at the sales process.

Sometimes, it’s wise to start conversations and put your prices into the context of your high-value service. But that’s only useful if you have a plan for those conversations.

If you’re not good at overcoming price objections, then do yourself a favor: Leave your prices on your website. Avoid the frustration of flooding your gym with leads who can’t afford your service. If your price comes as a shock to potential clients, they won’t buy—no matter how good your intro.

Fact 1: Removing prices from your website will create conversations with more potential clients. Fact 2: Those conversations will usually be about price. Are you really prepared to overcome the price objection? If you’re not, let your website do it for you.

The gyms that need cold leads every single month usually have really high turnover. They have to replace a lot of departed people and need all the conversations they can get.

But if your gym is successful, you’ll eventually need less marketing and fewer conversations. That means you want to talk to clients for whom price isn’t the primary concern. With clients like this, requiring them to fill out a form to get your prices will turn them off. They’ll think you have something to hide. And they’ll be right.

You can get better at the consultative process by following the Prescriptive Model. The step-by-step instructions are here.

For a more in-depth discussion of when to remove prices from your website (and when to put them on) read this article.

The post Taking Prices off Your Website? Read This First. appeared first on Two-Brain Business.

Giving and Receiving Feedback

by Per Mattsson, Certified Two-Brain Fitness Business Mentor

How are you doing and how are you being perceived?

When it comes to financials, you know how you are doing by tracking metrics and numbers. 

When it comes to relationships and leadership, you don’t really have any numbers to review. Instead of guessing, you need to start asking questions. If you are brave enough to ask for feedback, you’ll find many opportunities to grow as a person. 

So what kind of questions can you ask if you want more and better feedback? Here are some very good ones:

1. What have I done that has had the most positive impact on you and/or your team?

2. What energizes you to work with me?

3. In which projects and roles am I most successful—and why?

4. What habit should I erase—and why?

5. What was my most significant mistake or misstep this year? What could I have done to handle the situation differently?

6. In this next year, what would you like me to do more or less often?

7. What opportunity have I missed to grow in my role this year?

8. What do you wish I did differently?

9. How can I better spend my time in the coming year?

10. What new skill do I need to take my performance to the next level?

Bonus question for the brave ones: On a scale of 1 to 10, how would you grade the quality of our relationship right now?

Important note: Everyone in your organization should have the courage to ask these questions. So how do you get to that point? I would recommend you start by showing the way. Pick some or all of the questions above and throw yourself out there. 

If you hesitate to do so, ask yourself: “What’s the worse thing that could happen?”

Learning what to change about yourself takes courage and curiosity. But doing so also builds your reputation. By learning what to change to improve yourself and then taking action, you’ll increase your performance and your effectiveness as a leader.

The post Giving and Receiving Feedback appeared first on Two-Brain Business.

Creating a Feedback Culture: Trust and Values

By Per Mattsson, Certified Two-Brain Fitness Business Mentor

Many business owners struggle to create an atmosphere of open and honest communication among staff. When you don’t have this culture, you are taking risks with your staff and your business.

If things are left unsaid, it creates tension in your team and can create conflict in the long run.Confused or frustrated team members can quit.Efficiency and service to clients can decline.

It’s essential to create an open and honest culture at your workplace. So how do you do it?

The key is to increase the frequency of feedback and broaden the areas in which feedback is given.

Performance-related feedback is the most common type of feedback, but in this post I’m going to share an advice on how you can provide feedback related to values and trust. 

Generating Productive Discussion

Try using moral dilemmas as a starting point.

A moral dilemma is a situation in which different solutions might be found depending on the people involved and the exact circumstances. Moral dilemmas can be made up, which makes them perfect for discussion with your team. Fictional scenarios are great because nothing is personal, so it’s easier to share opinions and take stands. 

When using a moral dilemma to generate discussion, the “four corners method” can be employed. Come up with three different options and leave one solution “open”—each choice is assigned to a corner of the room you are in. For example, you could present a situation like this:

You walk by a conversation in the gym and can’t help overhearing it. A group of members and a coach are talking about another coach in the gym. The members are saying they don’t like that coach and her coaching style. The trainer who is in the group seems to agree. What do you do? Here are your options:

I don’t do anything. I am uncomfortable handling situations like that.I wait until the conversation is over and then talk to my colleague about it. I go to my boss and tell her about it so she can deal with it.Present you own answer.

Think for a moment, and when I say “go,” move to the corner that represents your choice.

Of course, you can create other alternatives. This is just a simple example.

If you do this exercise with your team, all staff members have to physically go to the corners that represent their answers. This lets everyone reflect and come up with an answer, and it prevents the quickest thinker from voicing his or her opinion and limiting discussion. It also shows everyone that there can be different ways of looking at one situation.

With people in their corners, you can start asking questions like this:

“Mike, you are in Corner 3. Could you tell us about your thoughts?“Jenna, you are in Corner 4. What would you have done?”

Then you can use follow up-questions or ask team members to comment on what others have said. All of a sudden, you are discussing value- and trust-related topics in a very non-threatening setting.

Two-Brain Business has actually sent clients a scenario deck of cards that provides lots of great ideas for moral dilemmas.

Your Business’s Values

If you have discussions like this regularly, you will soon be able to move further and start giving feedback to individuals around values and trust.

As people feel safer working through these scenarios, you’ll have more and more opportunities to demonstrate and discuss the values on which your business is based. By doing so, you’ll help staff members choose the best responses to real dilemmas—solutions that reflect the character, mission and vision of your business.

It takes reps and practice to make this happen. But it’s worth it. Lead the way and inspire your staff to follow.

The post Creating a Feedback Culture: Trust and Values appeared first on Two-Brain Business.

“Stop Doing That!”—How to Give Feedback at Your Microgym

Mike (00:02):

I need you to fill out your class attendance. No, not like that. Why aren’t you filling it out properly? Nope. Stop, stop. Carl, fill out your attendance properly. Do what I say. I have no idea how to give feedback to staff. I better call in an expert. Per Mattsson is here right after this.

Chris (00:23):

It’s Chris Cooper here. Your gym’s programming won’t attract new clients, but it can help you keep your clients longer. Good programming includes benchmarks, novelty, skills, progressions, leaderboards, you know all that stuff. But great programming contains something more: a link between each client’s fitness goals and the workout of the day. Your coaches need to tell your clients more than what they’re doing every day. They need to explain why they’re doing it. Gym’s whose coaches could explain the why connection had a 25% better retention rate during lockdowns. Imagine how that translates into better retention when things are back to normal. Now, I want to solve this problem for gym owners. Programming is the service you deliver to your clients. So I partnered with Brooks DiFiore, who had one of the highest adherence rates in the world for his group classes at his gym to build twobrainprogramming.com. We built this for Two-Brain gyms and we give them free access in our mentorship program. But I’m now making this available to the public. Programming proven to improve retention and cashflow in your gym. Visit Two-Brain programming.com to get it.

Mike (01:30):

I’m Mike Warkentin and this is Two-Brain Radio. My guest today is Per Mattson all the way from Sweden. He’s a certified Two-Brain fitness business mentor gym owner. More importantly, he’s not afraid to provide feedback to staff members and he doesn’t freak out when they share their thoughts on his behavior. Per. Welcome to Two-Brain Radio. Do you think you could help gym owners give and receive better feedback today?

Per (01:51):

Thanks, Mike. Yeah, I definitely think so. At least I hope so.

Mike (01:56):

Yeah. So let’s start with an important one and a really important distinction: feedback versus criticism. What’s the difference and why do so many people mistake, helpful feedback for an attack?

Per (02:11):

Yeah, I actually think that, you know, criticism its actually feedback, right? It’s just that it’s a tough kind of feedback. So any sort of communication around my performance is feedback and it could be bad feedback, which would be interpreted as criticism. Right? So I think the reason so many people get a bit defensive when they get to receive feedback or when people give them feedback, is that I think most people are not really used to it happening.

Mike (02:45):

Yeah. I think you’re right. It’s funny because the word criticism has negative connotations so much so that people have to say constructive criticism when they’re trying to tell people that it’s not a bad thing and yet criticism isn’t, it doesn’t mean necessarily bad. It’s just like you said, it is feedback, but I’ve had, you know, I’ve done this myself too. Someone will tell me, Oh, I don’t like that. And immediately I start to feel like bad about it. Whereas, you know, and borrowing this from Colm O’Reilly our mindset training friend. You don’t have to feel bad about something if someone else doesn’t like a certain thing, like if I wrote something and someone doesn’t like it, that’s just an opinion. It doesn’t really affect me internally unless I let it. But it’s very interesting. Have you seen staff members take your feedback as criticism and kind of bristle and get upset about it?

Per (03:30):

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I think, you know, I think one of the reasons that people get a bit defensive or they feel that they are being attacked is that we don’t give feedback often enough. And we often wait until we have something that needs to improve. We always bring things up when, when people need to improve, instead of also giving a lot of feedback on things that are working really well.

Mike (03:59):

Chris Cooper’s written about that so many times where if you’re reluctant to give feedback, and Chris has said that he is, I tend to be as well. You kind of let things crop up and until you’re mad and then you’re like, I’m mad about this and this and this and this. And then it does feel like an attack. And that’s really the fault of the owner of the business person for not giving that feedback sooner.

Per (04:19):

Yeah. I mean, it’s not OK if you want to be a leader to wait until you’re actually angry or frustrated or mad, you need to be really quick on bringing things up and talk about them as if it’s something normal, right? Because things like, people like us do things like this, right? We talk to each other in order to help each other grow because we want to deliver a great experience to our clients.

Mike (04:46):

A good example and parallel in the gym operations setting is when gym owners want to change their schedules, their class schedules, and sometimes they’ll just do it because all these classes are all not full. So I’m going to change the schedule immediately. And clients can sometimes get upset with that. But if you tell clients that every quarter, you’re going to reevaluate your schedule and make adjustments to make it better for them, they expect that quarterly change in feedback, they’re prepared for it. And so that’s kind of an analogy for what you’re saying here. If you give regular feedback to your staff and they know it’s coming, they know that it’s not an attack, it’s just the regular operation of business, correct?

Per (05:20):

Yeah. Yeah. And then you will still have situations where people get, where they don’t like your feedback or when you perhaps even hurt them. I’ve had situations like that, but I guess that is going to happen. What you can do is you need to just try to solve that situation and perhaps apologize, talk about what just happened and what you could’ve done differently, and then try to move on because you need to practice. You need your reps, right? In terms of giving and receiving feedback,

Mike (05:52):

We’re going to play with those reps later on in the show, a little bit of role play, but before we get to that, so the first tip is give regular feedback to your staff. Now let’s say, as a staff person or someone who’s listening, maybe isn’t good at accepting feedback. How does someone learn to adjust their mindset, to learn how to accept feedback without emotion or anger?

Per (06:14):

Oh yeah. From practice, first of all, I would say, but I also think this is really hard because this comes with implementing a feedback culture, and that can take time based on what experiences people have before coming into your gym and working with you, other experiences with teachers or with coaches or with other bosses. So it’s really hard to answer that question, but I think it starts with you as an owner saying that you want to implement the feedback culture and that you’re going to work really hard on it. And the reasons why. I think that it starts with them.

Mike (07:04):

So you established basically the ground rules are you say, this is what I want to have here. I want to have an open environment where people can talk and suggest things for improvement, because we ultimately all want the same thing, to make this business better, serve our clients better. Right. So you start with that. And then I think probably, you know, you said you have to lead from the front. You definitely, as an owner, have to be prepared to accept some feedback. So you in your blog series that we’re going to link to in the show notes, you talked about some questions that, you know, you could ask people to start conditioning yourself as an owner to receive feedback and set the tone. Can you tell me some of those questions? Because I thought this was a really interesting exercise and man, it made me feel scared when I was reading some of them.

Per (07:45):

Yeah, of course. Yeah. And I think, you know, perhaps it should feel a bit scary every now and then, or at least you should be a bit nervous every now and then, because as a leader, you want to know how people experience you. Right. So you should be inviting feedback. And I have some really good questions here that you can use. I’m just going to go through them and see what you think about them. All right. So number one would be, what have I done that has had the most positive impact on you or your team? OK. All right. So that gives the other person an opportunity to be a bit specific on actions that you have taken that has really helped them.

Mike (08:32):

And it was an easy in, easy start, because you’re asking for something positive. It’s like, don’t tell me I suck. This is actually, I want something good here.

Per (08:39):

Yeah. But it’s the same psychology as the bright spots you need to start with. I mean, as I said, feedback should be given around both positive and negative things. I guess. Another good question would be what is energizing about working with me?

Mike (08:56):

So you start to realize the things that you’re doing to fire up your staff members and what they feed off of it.

Per (09:01):

Yeah. And the general rule also here with the question is that this is not yes or no questions because it’s not a question if, whether I’m energizing or not, the question is what is energizing and working with me. Right.

Mike (09:16):

And that’s a rule for podcasts too. I can’t ask you yes or no questions have to ask you how, what and why. So you talk, right?

Per (09:22):

Yeah. All right. So I’m just going to go on here. Which of my projects or what role do you think I am most successfully? And what about it is it that works well from your point of view?

Mike (09:34):

That’s a good one.

Per (09:36):

That’s a good one. OK. So here comes another one that could be sort of directed towards more negative feedback, what habit could or should I erase and why?

Mike (09:49):

Yeah. So that way you might get, like, you need to shower more, you know?

Per (09:54):

Yeah. Or perhaps, you know, I think, you know, it could be something like, you always bring important things up on the fly. So that stresses me out or something like that. Right.

Mike (10:07):

As you’re reading these, I’m thinking about asking them of my wife and man I’d be scared for some of the answers.

Per (10:12):

Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, imagine the positive effects in the long run.

Mike (10:16):

Right? It could help us.

Per (10:16):

Yeah. All right. You want some more?

Mike (10:20):

Give me a few more.

Per (10:22):

So what was my most significant mistake or misstep this year and what could I have done to handle this situation differently?

Mike (10:32):

Wow. So let me ask you, have you ever asked these questions of your staff and like, are they scared to answer because they’re criticizing the boss?

Per (10:41):

I actually, I have asked variations of them. Yes. Because I have always been very feedback oriented as a person. So, you know, when I was a teacher or when I was a principal or when I’m coaching the soccer team, or when I’m doing a class, I always ask people like, so how did I do today? Or what could I have done better? Or what things do you think are what’s doing good today? Stuff like that. So I think it’s so important to ask questions like this and really dig into my qualities as a leader.

Mike (11:16):

Do you have to say to them, like, we’re in the sharing tree here, like it’s OK to criticize me, I’m asking for it and it will help me. And they’re like, OK, well, you know, and then they unload with you?

Per (11:26):

Yeah. Yeah. Often when you sit down one-on-one I think most people, they don’t have any problems giving you clear and specific feedback when you ask for it.

Mike (11:39):

Yeah. And like you said, if you, if you have a feedback culture, then it doesn’t surprise them. So maybe the first time they’re scared, but the second time it’s easier and so forth. And we’ll get to that feedback culture. Well, maybe give me two more questions. I think pick your two favorite of the last ones that you got.

Per (11:55):

I’m going to pick one who is, well, like I call it like an extra question for the brave ones, but I’m going to save that to last. Yep. So before that we can try this one. What new skill do I need to take my performance to the next level?

Mike (12:10):

That would be such a great opportunity. You know, if they said, Hey, you could do a little bit better with your public speaking, that would connect with members better, or maybe it would be great if you didn’t make so many mistakes in our paychecks and, you know, improve your data entry skills. Like that’s a real opportunity to improve yourself as a business owner and a leader.

Per (12:26):

Exactly, exactly. And I think, you know, imagine if you ask questions like this to your staff members regularly, the amount of input and information that you can have in order to grow as a leader is massive, right? So not only is it going to help you as an owner, as a leader, it’s also going to help build trust in your team. Your staff members are going to see that this guy is willing to change in order to be a better leader for me.

Mike (12:56):

I love it. So hit me now with the last one there, the “scary one.”

Per (13:01):

Right? So that would be something like this. On a scale from one to 10, how would you grade the quality of our relationship right now?

Mike (13:14):

That’ be interesting. What if someone gives you like a three, you know, it’s like scary.

Per (13:18):

So the good thing about using scale questions is that when they give you a number, then you can start digging into that. Right. So, OK. So tell me why did you put me on a five or a seven or an eight? So that you get a lot of specific feedback and then you can ask, so what would it take for me to jump up to an eight or a nine.

Mike (13:41):

And even better I think like later on, when you have this conversation again, you can use that same rating system, and then you can tell if you’ve gotten better or worse and you get feedback. So you’ve taken this like emotional kind of mystical experience and you’ve quantitized it so that you can actually measure improvement.

Per (13:56):

Yep.

Mike (13:56):

Oh, wow. That’s really cool. So like, yeah. Have you used that question yourself?

Per (14:02):

Yeah.

Mike (14:02):

Oh man. Did you ever get any low ratings?

Chris (14:06):

More on that topic in just a second. Two-Brain Radio is brought to you by AGuard, providing elite insurance for fitness and sport. AGuard offers coverage for functional fitness facilities, mixed martial arts gyms and even events and competitions. You can also get access to healthcare insurance, discounted AEDs and discounted background checks. AGuard’s coverage options are designed to keep you safe. To find out more, visit affiliateguard.info.

Per (14:31):

So, yes, you know, as I said, I have been a principal. You get low ratings when you’re a principal, because you can’t please everyone in a system like that. So I am really used to receiving feedback throughout my life. And I think sometimes it’s frustrating, of course, and most often when you get lower ratings, I think the pattern has been that my relationship to that person or that group hasn’t been that good from the beginning. So we don’t really know each other yet, or I haven’t spent enough time with them or that person. So that is often the reason, it’s not based on poor performance from my side. Often it’s more based on, they don’t really know me and my leadership, so they don’t really feel confident or comfortable. And when they don’t really know, then they give me lower ratings. That’s my experience.

Mike (15:33):

So listeners give that one a try. That’s a very interesting question that’s going to give you some feedback and allow you to measure your improvement. So I recommend that you try that question and if you’re a little bit nervous about it, start with some of the easier ones first, but that is a really, really insightful question that you can ask and measure your improvement so far. Let’s talk a little bit more about feedback culture. So we talked about a little bit about at the beginning, what are some other tips gym owners can use to implement and create and nurture a feedback culture at their gyms?

Per (16:04):

Well, I think, as I said, the first step would be just to, if that is important for you, and if it’s important for you to have a culture like that, you need to say it and you need to talk to your team about positive effects of implementing a feedback culture like that. So what do you think we could achieve if we had more feedback flowing among us and we could share more success stories and we could be more brave and give constructive criticism, et cetera. So you need to bring it up and talk about it and let your staff members talk about potential worries that they have.

Mike (16:50):

It sounds like that relates to the mission and vision of your business.

Per (16:53):

Of course, yes. Very similar, right?

Mike (16:56):

You’re getting people on the right page, right? Like where you’re saying we’re all going in this direction because we all agree that this is important. Let’s make it better through feedback. I love that.

Per (17:04):

So the interesting thing here is that it’s very hard for someone to say no to a feedback culture when you talk about all the positive effects and we have this stated in our staff playbook, and we say that we are always going to be open. And if I see someone doing something, I should always give feedback, et cetera, et cetera. And everyone says, yes, this is great. But then the next step is when you start, when you really end up in situations where feedback would be needed, that is when it gets scary, right? So you need to really follow up as an owner. If, I for instance, have a staff member coming to me and they want to talk about another staff member, something that that coach did on the floor or whatever. My question back to the person would be OK.

Per (17:56):

So how did you address it? Did you talk to that coach before coming to me? And if they say no, then you know that you still have a lot to work on when it comes to feedback culture. Right.

Mike (18:06):

That’s interesting.

Per (18:07):

It is. So I don’t know. It’s like being a parent. When the kids always need you to solve the conflict, et cetera, you need to be a very active parent and you need to go in there and discipline them. Right. But, you don’t want to be in that role with your staff members. Sometimes I use that parallel and, you know, do you really need me acting as a parent between you guys here? Or can you sit down together and try to solve this if it’s a conflict or if it’s something that’s a bit scary, right?

Mike (18:45):

It sounds like a lot of this relates to just communicating and as gym owners, we often forget to communicate with our staffs and our clients, but often we’ll start to communicate with our clients better than our staff members. But if you’re always communicating, you’re probably going to almost by accident develop that feedback culture, because you’re in constant contact with the most important people. I won’t say the most important people in your business because the clients are important, but the people who are directly responsible for making sure the clients are happy.

Per (19:10):

Yeah, exactly. And I think that we need to talk a lot about why we want to give each other feedback. There is a definition that I’m mentioning in my presentation for the summit in February and the definition of feedback would be an act of love in order to help someone grow.

Mike (19:31):

So that doesn’t sound so scary.

Per (19:33):

It doesn’t, right? So if I’m in a team of coaches and I see a coach that would need some feedback, if I really want to help that person, if I really want to show him or her that I love that person as a team member, I would share that feedback. Right.

Mike (19:53):

That’s that’s great. And before we go on, people who are interested in this, where can they hear you speak on this topic? You mentioned an event in February.

Per (20:00):

Yeah. On the Two-Brain Regional Day in February.

Mike (20:04):

We’re going to get that link in the show notes for you. If you guys want to hear more about this from the great Mr. Mattson, you could definitely join in there. And, Colm O’Riley is also gonna be in there, our man from Ireland talking about mindset. So please click that link if you’re interested in learning more on this, it’s not just going to be a lecture. It’s going to be interactive. There will be things that you guys do and worksheets and all that, you will make progress in that event. All right, let’s go into some common mistakes that gym owners make. What are some of the things that they do wrong when it goes to feedback? And we talked about the big one, which is waiting until you’re angry and then just unloading. Is there anything else that gym owners often do wrong?

Per (20:40):

I do think that they don’t talk about feedback and why it is important with their staff. So they need to do that. They need to talk about it. And, you know, as I said, bring up potential positive effects to get everyone on board.

Mike (20:59):

It’s not enough. I’m sorry to interrupt, but it’s not enough to just start giving feedback randomly. You have to explain why it’s important and why people should see it as a positive opportunity for growth and how it’s going to help them in the business rather than just saying change the toilet paper.

Per (21:11):

Yeah. Yeah. I also think that goes together with, you know, if you’re a leader, you need to have some sort of leader declaration, or you need to tell your staff how you want to be as a leader and why. It’s basically, it’s also connected to the vision and mission, right? This is what you can expect from me as a leader. I want to be a leader that coaches you guys. My intention is to give a lot of feedback, but I also want to have a lot of feedback. And the reason is, blah, blah, blah. Right? So you need to talk about it and why you feel that it’s important.

Mike (21:47):

Guys, if you’re listening and you don’t have a mission and vision for your business, we have a great episode. Kaleda Connell. One of our mentors speaks about that. We’re going to get that link in the show notes for you. It’s a great episode and it helps you put a foundation under everything you do, and it makes all this stuff so much easier. So when you’re trying to relate feedback to your mission and vision, you’ve got one and your staff is all on that same page. Any other things you can do?

Per (22:11):

You could listen more. I think often people are too busy talking, so they don’t really listen. If you want to give feedback, you also need to listen what the other person has to say, ask follow-up questions instead of just being focused on bringing your message forward. Basically.

Mike (22:29):

You know, that happens so often where, and I’ve read about this, where people often talk about conversations or like experts talk about people in conversations. And instead of actually listening to what the person is saying, they’re just thinking about what they’re going to say next. And that really prevents you from actually interacting with people and having a good dialogue where things improve.

Per (22:50):

Yeah, exactly. And the, you know, the key to asking better questions is to listen, right?

Mike (22:56):

And it’s so common, you know, it’s so common when you get people who, I mean, I remember specifically there was a interview that I did with a potential staff member and he kept interrupting me whenever I was speaking. And every time he did it, I kept thinking about how would he interact with one of my clients? And ultimately we didn’t hire him because of that.

Per (23:14):

Yeah. It’s for me also, it’s frustrating if I have, let’s say that I have a business partner who is not very good at listening. So he’s always busy coming with a new arguments or whatever. And I can say if you could just lean back, listen a bit more and ask a couple of follow-up questions, this wouldn’t even be an argument. And so listening more, that that’s a skill that leaders need to develop for sure.

Mike (23:43):

So it’s interesting that you’re talking about in terms of becoming better at feedback, you actually have to sit back and listen, before you give that feedback.

Per (23:50):

Yeah. Listen and observe, right? Because another mistake is that you are often a bit too vague or unspecific in your feedback because either you feel a bit uncomfortable, so you tend to not cut to the chase or, you know, just, tell it like it is. So you get a bit vague and unspecific, and then the feedback is really hard to process for the person you’re talking to.

Mike (24:16):

You mentioned, sorry, go ahead. Pardon me.

Per (24:19):

Also, I think that most leaders are not really leading the way in also asking for and inviting feedback because I think that is where it starts.

Mike (24:31):

I like it. And one of the things that you mentioned is practice. So we’re going to try, we’re just going to do a little bit practice role playing here for just a second. And we’re going to practice because again, a lot of people are very nervous about doing this kind of thing. The way to get better at anything is to practice when there’s no pressure on and then use it when the pressure is on. So if you’re nervous about talking to a staff member, maybe role play with, you know, your spouse or a partner or something like that. And then you’ll be more prepared for some of the things that come up. So are you ready to do a little bit of role play with me?

Per (25:00):

Do my best.

Mike (25:01):

OK. So here we go. I’m a coach at your gym and I teach the squat my way. It’s confusing your clients because all the other coaches teach it another way, the way that everyone in the gym has basically agreed that we’re going to teach the squat. I’m also not really good at accepting feedback, and I tend to get defensive. So please give me some feedback as an experienced gym owner and tell me how I should improve and change so that everyone in improves.

Per (25:31):

So I would step up to you after class. OK. Mike, can you please, can I borrow you for a few minutes?

Mike (25:40):

Why? What do you need?

Per (25:42):

I would like to give you some feedback on your coaching, if that’s OK with you,

Mike (25:47):

What am I doing wrong this time?

Per (25:50):

Not necessarily something that you’re doing wrong, but I do have some questions or I did observe you coaching the squat. And you have a unique way of coaching it.

Mike (26:05):

Yeah, it’s my way. And it’s really good.

Per (26:09):

You had some interesting key words and stuff like that. The problem is that I experienced, I feel that when you coach a movement your way, I, as an owner and head coach, I get a bit worried and frustrated because we, you know, we do have some points of performance for movements in our gym and how to coach them. Right.

Mike (26:31):

But I think mine are better. I mean, I think mine are a real improvement on what you’ve got.

Per (26:35):

Perhaps that could be part of another conversation with the rest of the team. But I do want you to you before, you know, before we have that discussion with the team, I would like you to just read up on the points of performance that we have and start using them in your coaching. And the reason is we need to take away confusion from our members, and it’s going to strengthen the members’ trust in our team. And I think that it will also help other coaches in knowing that we are all working together. Perhaps, you know, if your cues are excellent, we should try them in our staff and then perhaps agree on them. How does that feel for you?

Mike (27:19):

So you’re saying that if I, you know, I could actually bring some of my points up in a staff meeting and we can actually go over some of the reasons why I think my squat way, my squat technique is better?

Per (27:29):

Of course, I think, you know, for me, I think that culture is super important. We never know if we are coaching in the best possible way, or we always have things to improve. Right. So if you have some ideas that you want to bring up, we should, but before we do that with the whole staff team, I think we need to stick to the points of performance that we have. Right. OK.

Mike (27:54):

Cause you know, I’m not trying to be a jerk here and like screw up the whole system you’ve got in place. But, you know, I think there’s a couple of really important steps that are missing from the squat, the way we teach the squat. And I think our clients would actually benefit better or more from our teaching if we just made a few adjustments. So if I had a chance to maybe talk about that, you know, that would help me a lot.

Per (28:14):

Yeah. I love it. I love it. That that is the way we grow as a team. Right. So let’s bring that up on the next staff meeting. Right.

Mike (28:21):

You know, I was really, I was nervous about, I didn’t know what to do because I thought if I talked to you about your, you know, your squat progression, you’d be upset with me, so I didn’t know what to do. So I just started teaching it my way.

Per (28:32):

All right. So how do you feel now?

Mike (28:34):

Well, I feel a whole lot better. How do you feel?

Per (28:37):

I feel good too, because you might have other ideas for improvement that we could use, right?

Mike (28:44):

Yeah. Well, I think you could probably change your hairstyle, you know, now you’ve just opened up the can of worms. Right. But, you know, I love that because like, right at the beginning, I was kind of giving you some pushback and being a little bit defensive. Right. And, you know, I like how, you know, you were accepting, but also, you know, firm, but kind, where you were saying, like, we want to do it this way. And the thing that really, you know, I mean, I’m, role-playing here, but the thing that helped me see things was that you were allowing, you know, that I had some valid ideas and maybe what I was doing wasn’t all bad. But the reason we want to do it your way is because it relates to the mission and vision of the gym and we can definitely discuss things. But for right now, maybe we just follow the procedures and then do that in the appropriate avenue. So you kind of redirected my anger and frustration into a more appropriate spot and allowed me to also feel validated in my criticism.

Mike (29:38):

You know, and when I hit you with some criticism, you didn’t get defensive on it. You know, I said, Oh, your squat progression, isn’t as good as mine or whatever. You didn’t get defensive and fight me on it, which would have just fired me up again. Because if you had said in the role-playing, if you had said, well, really our progression has been tested and it’s better. I would have fought you, you know?

Per (29:55):

Exactly. And I think that that’s an example of, you know, not trying to do things on the fly or because that should be a longer discussion. You should be able to sit down. And also one really powerful thing when you have an argument or a discussion with someone, and there are more people in the room is that you can ask other people what they think. So instead of turning it into an argument between you and the staff member, you can bounce that question or that idea around the room to get others’ perspective. And if you could see them that let’s say that all of the other staff members said that we actually don’t really think that’s a good idea because our points of performance are better or whatever, then it would be harder for you to keep pushing your ideas and your squat progression I think. Right?

Mike (30:49):

Yeah. That’s exactly it. And so that takes, again, that’s the value of practice where if you are not as good at this as Per is and you run into situations like this, take them offline and practice them ahead of time. Just like you would practice, you know, a snatch before you go into an Olympic weightlifting competition, practice, then be prepared because you can definitely start to figure out where some of the things are going to pop up and you can be prepared for some of this stuff. And if you’ve practiced, you’re also less likely to be emotional, right? Because you saw in the role-play, I was sort of emotional, Per did not get emotional. And that’s because he’s done this many times, obviously it’s a role-play too, but even in a real situation, he’s done this so many times that that feedback is kind of going to wash off him.

Mike (31:31):

And he’s going to be able to absorb things without getting emotional, but that comes from practice. So if you happen to be that reactive emotional person, practice, and that is just a Two-Brain principle, as Per said earlier, get the reps in. I want to direct you guys to the blog series that’s coming out this week. Per has a number of them on feedback, culture on how to use feedback to improve trust and values in your business, and also how to give and receive feedback. And there are extra questions in there. We went over some of the 10, there are extra in there. Take a look at those. Per, what is one thing? If a gym owner is listening right now and wants to get better today at giving feedback, what’s the one thing he or she should do right now?

Per (32:13):

To get better at giving feedback. OK. Then I would say, go out there and catch them being good. Look for good things in your staff and give them praise, give them feedback, tell them why you think it’s a good thing. And then ask them, how did you feel about that or something like that. So start with catch people being good, I guess, right there.

Mike (32:40):

That’s very close to what you said, Two-Brain’s Bright Spots Friday, go out right now into your into your staff and find each person and give each person a piece of positive feedback. Hey, I really liked how you scrubbed down the whiteboards before class. They were sparkling. Hey, the way you help that client out in that pull-up progression was outstanding. Give some feedback and start doing that regularly. And then eventually you can start working in constructive criticism and also be prepared to take some feedback. Per. Thank you so much for sharing this. Are you looking forward to sharing more in the event that’s coming up?

Per (33:16):

Oh yes. I do think that that presentation is going to be helpful. I really hope so. I have put a lot of time and energy and love in it. So yeah, I I’m really looking forward to it. I’m a bit nervous because it’s the first time I’m presenting without the live audience. So I look forward to receiving some feedback on it

Mike (33:43):

And you know, what’s interesting, you mentioned that as I’ve been privileged enough to work with you on some elements of that of that presentation and it was really cool because you were talking about feedback and then I was watching you actually receive feedback from some of the editors who were helping you out. And it was really cool to see how you absorbed that and used it to improve things without getting defensive or emotional. And I thought it was just such a cool way of you putting into practice what you were talking about. So guys out there, if you are looking for more practice on this in actual stuff, please click the link to register for this event. You can do it whether you’re a Two-Brain client or not. And you’re going to hear Per talk about feedback. Thank you so much for joining us all the way from Sweden today. I appreciate it, sir.

Per (34:20):

Thanks for having me, Mike.

Mike (34:21):

All right, we’ll have you back again. Thank you.

Per (34:22):

Thank you.

Mike (34:23):

That was Per Mattson on Two-Brain Radio. We track everything at Two-Brain. We just published Chris Cooper’s State of the Industry guide. This 84-page book is packed with data from over 6,000 gym owners. You can use it to make smart decisions, avoid mistakes, generate more revenue, and see where you stack up in the gym world. It’s 100% free and you can get it at twobrainbusiness.com/research. That link is in the show notes. Click it right now. I’m Mike Warkentin. I’ll see you next time on Two-Brain Radio. Subscribe for more.

 

The post “Stop Doing That!”—How to Give Feedback at Your Microgym appeared first on Two-Brain Business.

Building a Feedback Culture

By Per Mattsson, Certified Two-Brain Fitness Business Mentor

Why do some people behave in a way that hinders their success or the success of their teams?

As a leader, struggling with team members is time consuming and frustrating. At times, it’s easy to think your efforts are pointless: You start to believe a certain team member is just acting stupidly or isn’t capable of change.

Before you give up on people, you should review the three most common reasons for underperformance:

The person does not know he or she is not meeting standards—lack of awareness.The person knows he or she isn’t meeting standards but doesn’t know how to change or why changing is important—lack of understanding.The person knows he or she isn’t meeting standards but doesn’t care—lack of engagement or investment.

Three possible answers—that’s it. Here’s how to address each issue.

Lack of Awareness

This person doesn’t even know she is underperforming. She doesn’t know her words are not coming across well or doesn’t know her behavior is not up to standards. She might not even know what is and isn’t acceptable. This often means no one is offering the person feedback or the feedback is too vague. Address the issue by delivering specific, regular feedback and ask if the person understands what is required to meet standards.

Lack of Understanding

This person is aware of his poor performance but does not know how to change or does not fully understand the effects of his behavior. Other people must speak up and share the impact this person’s behavior is having. Then a clear plan for improvement should be put in place so he knows exactly what adjustments need to be made.

Lack of Engagement or Investment

This person is pushing back against expectations. If the expectations are important and clearly delivered, this person needs managing. If the staff person still won’t engage, he or she might be in the wrong role or business. If the expectations need to be changed and modified, discuss these alterations with your team. It is very important to get staff members out of the “aware but don’t care” state so you can come to a mutual understanding.

How to Provide Feedback

As a leader, it is your job to make sure that feedback is given and well received in your organization. People in all three categories above need feedback in order to grow and change, and leaders must ensure there is both awareness and understanding. 

Giving great feedback requires four things:

1. A helpful and clear message about the impact of someone’s performance and behavior. It needs to be clear exactly what is not acceptable.

2. Clarity about which new behaviors are desired or which performance standards must be met.

3. Guidance about how to make positive changes. People must be provided with specific steps to take to achieve a new performance level or learn new behaviors.

4. Follow-up. You need to make sure to follow up. Follow-ups are positive and show your team member that you care and that the issue is important.

As a leader, you must believe that a person can change and grow. By addressing unacceptable behaviors or bad performance, you give staff opportunities to become more valuable to the business.

Practice your feedback skills by addressing poor behavior and performance with a partner who pretends to be a staff member. If you are prepared to have these conversations and know what to say, you can quickly address issues clearly and without emotion when they arise. This approach will give you the greatest chance to remedy any problems.

The post Building a Feedback Culture appeared first on Two-Brain Business.

Fifty Years of Fitness Knowledge: Jim Adams and Chris Cooper

Andrew (00:02):

Welcome to Two-Brain Radio. Today, Chris Cooper speaks with Jim Adams of the Masters in Fitness Business podcast. These two have been in the fitness biz for more than five decades combined. And you don’t want to miss this conversation.

Chris (00:13):

The people at Incite Tax know you’re working long hours to improve health for the world, but it can still be hard to turn a profit. You just can’t focus on your mission without money in your account. So Incite founder John Briggs wrote “Profit First for Mirogyms” and created a system that increases your cashflow so you can be home for dinner with a thriving fitness business. Bookkeeping, profit first, cash flow consulting, taxes, whatever your financial needs, Incite can help. Join their free five-day challenge at profitfirstformicrogyms/five days to get a snapshot of the financial health of your gym. That’s profitfirstformicrogyms/five days.

Chris (00:55):

Jim Adams, Masters in Fitness Business Podcast. Welcome to the show.

Jim (00:59):

Thanks Chris. Thanks for having me on. I’m thrilled to be here.

Chris (01:01):

Yeah, I think we’re going to have a great time. So Jim, you’ve interviewed a lot of experts in the field, and today I’m going to pick your brain on kind of a meta level on what you’ve learned and what you can teach us about the fitness business. But what I want to start with is what brought you to starting your own podcast and talking to experts in the field?

Jim (01:24):

Well, that’s a great question, Chris. And it started by my need to scratch my own itch. So I’ve been in the personal training field for this month will be 31 years. So that officially makes me old. And I started when I was a baby. I opened my gym, my training studio almost six years ago. And when I opened, I was a great trainer who didn’t know how to be a great owner. And as a result I was floundering. So I found a mentorship group. For me it was the secret trainer society with Rick Mayo and Frank Nash and a bunch of other—Tim Lyons, a bunch of big name people in that. And based on that, they helped me become a better owner and a better leader. And one day I was flying home from one of our conferences back when we used to be able to meet face to face.

Jim (02:23):

And you know how you fly home from these conferences and your mind is just popping. And whenever I get home, my staff just dreads it because I’m going, oh, we’re going to do this. We’re going to do this. We’re going to do this. And they’re like, Oh God, he’s been to another conference. But, so I was flying home and I was like, man, I wish I could sit down with one of these guys and just pick their brain for like an hour. So I bounced that idea off of Frank Nash and he said, you can. And I said, what do you mean? He said, start a podcast. I said OK. So that’s what I did. So I did it to scratch my own itch because I was one of those trainers who knew how to train, but I didn’t know how run a successful business and the mind shift that it takes to do that. And the new skill set that it takes to do that. So that’s why I started the podcast. So I could learn that and then hopefully pass that knowledge on to other trainers in the same situation.

Chris (03:17):

I love that, Jim. What brought you to the point where you realized that you were a great trainer, but not a great business owner?

Jim (03:24):

It weren’t pretty. I mean, what didn’t hit me over the head with that? So when I was just a one man show, it was easy to train people, get them to come back, do referrals, all of that stuff. But when I hired my first trainer and said, OK, and they shadow me for a while, then I let them go. And I’m like, OK, they’re not doing this right. And then initially I would blame them, oh, they’re just not a good trainer, but I came to find out that it was me who wasn’t doing a good job of systematizing the training and training them, onboarding them so they could train the client the way I wanted them to train. So systems, learning how to do payroll and what percentage of payroll needed to be, how to budget, because I wanted, I was just like most trainers.

Jim (04:15):

I wanted the slickest gym, the slickest flooring, finishes, equipment, all of that thinking that would bring clients to me, not realizing tha, early on my biggest expense needed to be one, systems and marketing so that when those leads come in, I know I have something to do with them. I was wearing every hat, and you know, from cleaning the bathrooms to answering the phone to training people, I was doing everything and I was just getting burnt out and I didn’t know how to build a team and build systems so that I could take all of that stuff off of my plate. So it was just, it was everything, you know, I knew how to train. And that part was working, but everything else was not working. So I really needed help with it.

Chris (05:09):

That’s great, man. And, for me, the toughest part was just getting over my own ego and actually accepting that I needed help. Did you have any problem with that yourself?

Jim (05:18):

Sure, absolutely. Because, you know, I felt like—I’d left this training facility. I’d been there for 22 years. I was the manager. I was the head trainer, everything. And I figured, you know, man, if I go out and I fall on my face, like I’m going to look like an ass, so I didn’t want to do that. But, you know, I tell you the person that—there’s two people that really changed it for me. One was Thomas Plummer, because he just hit me in the face with the facts, and two was Frank Nash because he was so successful. But yet he was also so humble and helpful that I felt like I was able to trust him and confide in him. And then when I did confide in him, he said, you know, Hey, look, everybody goes through that, man. I went through that, you know, that’s why you’re in this group, use these people to help you grow. So that’s what I did. But the bottom line was like, when I was sitting looking at my bank account, running my business, I’m like, man, this is not the business that I want. And so that was enough humiliation to make me humble and ask for help.

Chris (06:34):

I think we all go through that. That’s great. So you’ve got both this long-term perspective on the industry. 31 years, you’ve seen a lot. You’ve also got this kind of meta view from hosting all these experts on this big podcast. When you’re looking at how the fitness industry has changed in the last three decades, does it appear to be a linear progression? Like we’re headed in one way? Or is it a loop? Like, do we keep going back to the same stuff over and over again?

Jim (07:02):

That’s an interesting question. Prior to COVID I would say it was kind of a loop, you know, when I first got into training, one-on-one training was brand new. Because I’m in St. Louis. In the facility where I was working, we had one competitor, we were a personal training studio and we had one competitor in the city of St. Louis. And now there are, you can throw a rock and, hit five, 10 competitors. And then people got away from one-on-one and started doing small group and large group. And prior to COVID, large group was all the rage. Everybody wanted to do it, but now that COVID has hit, I think people are going back to the one-on-one and the semi private and online training. And I don’t think that is going to change any time soon. I see a lot or I talk to some fitness business owners who are, you know, like everybody else, waiting for when we can go back to normal, but I don’t think that’s going to happen anytime soon.

Jim (08:05):

I don’t think it’s going to happen in 2021. I really don’t. I think this is our reality and we need to adjust to it. So that means a lot of things, but the biggest things, I think, personal training and semi-private training, seems to be the model that everybody’s leaning to because the price point is higher. So the margins are higher. And two, people are craving that. They don’t want to be packed side by side next to people breathing heavy and sweating. So, so I think that is kind of where the future is going. That and online, I’ve been actually surprised at how well some people have adapted to online and some people who have gone 100% online and are able to scale it. So I don’t think that is ever going to go back. I think as COVID dissipates and we can go back to, you know, more capacity, more people, more clients, less restrictions, I think you’re going to see a little bit of a rebound kind of a pendulum coming back, but I don’t think online and virtual training is ever going to go away.

Chris (09:12):

It’s really interesting that you said pendulum. Sometimes when I’m looking at the industry, I think it’s a pendulum and yesterday a good friend said, there’s this new thing called hit. H I T. And I said, do you mean high intensity interval training? And he’s like, no, no, this is totally new. It’s like one giant set of squats until you’re completely dead. And then you do like a giant set of bench press. And so Jim, and I mean, you’ll find this funny, but I said, no, no, Google like Mike Metzker, H I T. And he, you know, back in the seventies, this was a common thing.

Jim (09:47):

Heavy-duty training.

Chris (09:47):

That was it. That’s what it was called. Yes. Thank you. Exactly. So it’s interesting that like these trends, they shift back and forth. But the evolution of the industry, as you say, seems to be in a straighter line. Now, the evolution that I’ve seen in the last couple of decades of doing this has been the emergence of what we would now call a micro gym. And when you and I started, maybe we worked at a globo gym or even a studio, but now you have this group training in a micro gym. Do you think that the micro gyms are perfectly poised to take advantage of the market rght now?

Jim (10:24):

I do. More so than big box and more so than the large group.

Chris (10:28):

Why do you say that, Jim?

Jim (10:29):

Because it fits within the restrictions that most people have to operate under during COVID. And it also it seems to be what the marketplace is asking for. They still want to train, they still want that accountability, but they want it in less people, less traffic, less contact, all of those things, for the sake of, you know, COVID, so I think that’s why it’s perfectly poised.

Chris (11:00):

So what do you think a gym owner, a micro gym, you know, 150 clients or less, what do you think they need to do to set themselves out to be successful in this new world?

Jim (11:12):

That’s a good question. I would say, I can tell you what we’ve done is that we’ve changed our marketing 100% to offer all the different options. We do outdoor training, we do virtual training, everything, you know, and it’s surprising to me. I was reading some research and it said even fully right now, a full 23% of gym owners that answer this survey, do not offer online courses and aren’t planning to, and to me, that’s insane. Well, it’s not insane, but I don’t think it”s a smart approach. But I think what we’ve done is we’ve marketed all of those things that I just talked about, that were we’re 3000 square foot studio. We only allow X amount of clients in per session. Go through our cleaning procedures, disinfecting procedures and everything there.

Jim (12:13):

And we do that in this video that we have plugged to the top of our Facebook page. And we’re going to put it on our website as well, because it kind of tells the story, but in a video form. And then the other thing that we do is we started marketing, we started marketing hard. We went aggressive with a new year’s push, and it seems to be working. I mean, last week we got nine new clients. And that’s just new clients, that doesn’t count leads and appointments booked and things like that. And then this week is shaping up to not be as busy, but still pretty busy. So we’re looking to hopefully add another four clients this week. So that’s new clients in two weeks. So I think that’s pretty good. So we hit the marketing pretty aggressively as to what we can do and that we can keep you safer than a big box gym.

Jim (13:11):

And a lot of times, I think we’re safer than a grocery store, based on just our amount of people traffic and our procedures and things like that. So we just went to market with that hard. I think that’s the thing is I think that with the model of the micro gyms, a lot of the benefits are just built in, incorporated into the model, but you still have to let people know about it. And so I think that’s where the marketing comes in. I think you have to get really creative with your marketing and really think about your marketing as it applies to who you’re trying to attract, to your demographic and not think about your marketing as a trainer, if that makes sense.

Chris (13:52):

It does. So do you think that we’re all going to become better marketers because of this?

Jim (13:58):

I don’t know that we’re going to become better, but we’re going to have to be different in the way that we market, you know, because a lot of like the B2B marketing is a little bit difficult, obviously you can’t do as many community events to get out there. So a lot of the non, a lot of the face-to-face marketing has been checked out by COVID. So I think digital marketing, Google ads, Facebook, Instagram, things like that are going to be the main tool, whether you like them or not. I think that’s just going to be the main tool because a lot of the face-to-face options aren’t available.

Chris (14:38):

So compared to a year ago, what does your offer look like to new people coming into your gym?

Jim (14:46):

The biggest shift that we made was that we went from advertising the gym as just a gym membership, like a service, to packaging it like a product. So instead of saying, Hey, join our gym. You know, here’s a two week free trial or whatever the lead magnet would have been, it’s a sign up for this program that will help you do X, Y, and Z. And then what we also do on top of that is we do what I call a Netflix close. I don’t call it Rick Mayo class it. I stole this from Rick Mayo. I’ll give him credit because he’s much smarter than I am. But, so when they come in and sign up for the program, like we have a what we’re advertising now is a leave 2020 behind program. And it’s six weeks and you get XYZ with it. And then when they come in and they sign up for that, we say, we’re also going to enroll you in this membership at the end of your six weeks. Now you can cancel at any time, but you have to just let us know in writing. That way, they’re chasing us down to cancel instead of us chasing them down to try to get them to buy into a new membership. So that was one of the biggest changes we made.

Chris (16:01):

And how does that affect your retention or conversion into the ongoing membership?

Jim (16:05):

It’s lower. I do find that the ability to close as far as like, at least for us, you know, cause you have your leads and then out of those leads, you want a certain percentage to book an appointment, out of those certain booked appointments, you want a certain percentage to show up for the appointment, those that show up, you want a certain percentage to close. And what I’ve noticed that across the board, all those percentages are lower. So people are just a little bit more tentative.

Chris (16:36):

Well, that is interesting. And have you seen this in other gyms too? Or is this just kind of a St Louis thing?

Jim (16:41):

No. I mean St. Louis. I mean, every market is different obviously, but I just did a Facebook live with Frank Nash this morning. He said the same thing along with a couple of other things. I’ve talked to a couple of other gym owners here in the St. Louis Metro area. And, and then people that I’ve interviewed on my podcast too have said the same thing. So, I think for us, we’re really focusing on retention. That’s going to be our number one thing, so that we don’t, you know, because there’s less people coming in, so I need less people sneaking out the back door. So retention has become a priority for us.

Chris (17:20):

OK, man. So let’s say that tomorrow, everybody gets a vaccine and this whole problem just goes away and we’re back to normal February 1st. Do you change your marketing back to what it was? Do you change your intro offer? Are you going to stick with what’s working right now?

Jim (17:35):

Well, I mean, if we’re able to snap our fingers and have everything go back the way it was, I’m going to go right back to the same old marketing, because that’s what people are craving. People want—I know I do. I want to be able to go to concerts and go to eat and, you know, be side by side with people while they’re sweating. There’s an energy in that. Right. So if somehow we were able to snap our fingers and make this go away, I think we would definitely go back to our regular marketing and start with that approach. Unfortunately, I don’t think that’s going to happen until at least sometime in 2022.

Chris (18:12):

Would you go back to your original offering or would you keep some online offering or would you keep running challenges at intake? That kind of thing?

Jim (18:20):

Yeah, I think I would still keep running challenges and online because I think there’s a certain percentage of the population that will stay there. And will crave that, but what I would like to do and what I just talked to my staff about is maybe streamlining that service so that we can scale a little bit more because right now, from a payroll standpoint, it’s a little draining, you know, because when you’re training somebody via Zoom, you know, they can only train so many people doing that and you got to pay them the full wage when they do that. So it’s, we have to find some way to get skinnier with that and be able to scale.

Chris (19:05):

That is really interesting, Jim.

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Chris (19:39):

So if you were starting off today, you know, and this is going to be your first day as a trainer, where would you start? Would you start online? Would you start with a facility? Would you start working for somebody else?

Jim (19:53):

I would probably start with, you know, and this is a difficult question for me to answer because I have a plan, and I’ve talked to several people about the plan, but I don’t necessarily want to disclose my full plan yet, but basically what we’re doing is I plan on doing just that. So if I were to open today, I would probably open a training studio, and by studio, I mean, a place where I couldd film kind of pre-film content or live content. So it would be set up like a gym, but it would be much smaller and it would be more like a TV studio and where I could produce content and get that out because I think that is much more scalable than just doing one-on-one zoom calls. But I would want it big enough so if I did have a client that wanted to come in and do a one-on-one, we could still do that.

Chris (20:57):

It’s interesting that after all this time, you still lean back toward if I had it to do over, I would do more media. Do you think that most micro gyms do enough or do they do too much or what?

Jim (21:10):

The biggest, I don’t want to say mistake, but I would say the biggest perception problem that I see with a lot of micro gyms and a lot of micro gym studio owners is that they put their marketing out like they’re talking to industry people, you know what I mean? So their marketing in their video and their content looks like it’s aimed toward other trainers. You know, they’ll put out like a workout of the day or the move of the day or something like that, and even their vernacular, their jargon is industry speak. And I don’t think they think about what they want their demographic to be. And then once you figure out what your demographic, what you want your demographic to be, then you have to curate your content and your marketing to that demographic, meaning you have to look through their eyes.

Jim (22:08):

So like, if you’re going after the 50 and up market, you know, the boomers, right, then you have to think like a boomer, what does a boomer want? You know, instead of thinking like a trainer or, you know, this was a great workout. I’m going to post it online and hopefully people will see this and they’ll want to come in. No. They don’t want any part of that. You know? Cause what I find at least with our demographic, cause we do get a lot of older individuals with movement issues and things like that. So that’s who we market to. And what I find is that most of our clients that come in, they don’t want to be gym rats, right? They want whatever they do in the gym to enhance what they do outside of the gym. They don’t care about PRs.

Jim (22:53):

They don’t care about how much weight they’re lifting or anything like that. Any of those things that trainers might care about. What they care about is when I go on my next trip, am I going to be able to walk for several hours? Am I going to be able to climb the stairs without being out of breath when I’m bringing my groceries in, you know, getting in and out of car, getting in and out of bed without my bace hurting, picking up my kids, things like that. That’s what our demographic cares about. So that’s the way we market. And then I say this all the time. And Rick Mayo gave me these stats is that lease here stateside, 80% of the population does not have a gym membership. And I see the 20% is the six pack abs, the booty short people.

Jim (23:41):

Right? And I find that that’s where most gyms in studios market to, is those people. They don’t market to the 80% and the 80% are the ones that are scared and intimidated to come into a gym because they’re usually out of shape and haven’t exercised in a while and don’t feel—they have very little confidence and hope that they can change anything. So they really don’t put a lot of weight on that. And then the marketing doesn’t attract them. If they’re coming in and they’re a hundred pounds overweight, they don’t want to be next to some girl who’s bouncing around like a Mexican jumping bean in booty shorts, you know, or maybe they do. I don’t know, but you get the idea. So I think if you can market—why would you market toward the 20% when you can market and make ainroads into that 80%? And then the 80% are the people who can, you can really have an impact on their lives. If you’re really in this business to change people’s lives, those are the people’s lives where you can really have an impact because they go from zero to five miles an hour. And so probably about four years ago, I had a lady come in. Her husband had been training with us for about a year and her husband had been trying to get her in. She came in and she was, I would say was over a hundred pounds overweight. And so she came in and she said, you know why it took me so long to come in. I said, why? She goes, I thought you guys were going to be a bunch of meatheads and Neanderthals and train me as such. And I didn’t want any part of that.

Jim (25:23):

And I thought I was going to be the only fat person here. So I said to her, I said, well, you are who I want in here. So I need your help. I need you to help me see fitness through your eyes so that I can curate my service delivery, my systems, my marketing, everything to attract more people like you. Because it’s very hard for me to have that perspective because I’ve been fit my whole life, you know, so I don’t have that perspective. So I needed to, you know, just like mentors, everybody that I find, everybody that comes on the podcast who’s successful has mentors. And there could be all kinds of mentors in your life. She was a mentor for me, for my marketing, for my mission, service delivery, marketing, everything. So that’s where I fall on marketing, is I think a lot of times we neglect that 80%, because all of the people we know usually fall within the 20%.

Chris (26:26):

Tell us the rest of that story, Jim, like, so you said to her, I want more people like you, then what happened?

Jim (26:31):

She became a really good friend. We’re still, we get along really well. I like her a lot. She wound up losing a hundred pounds with us. So she became our biggest advocate. She referred a ton of clients. She helped me with the questions and the framing for the podcast. She helped me with marketing and as a result, we were able to get a lot more people just like her in the club. And that has, it’s like a snowball going downhill, right? So when people come in and they see people like them that are there trying to do the same thing, then it becomes easier, less intimidating for them to come in.

Chris (27:17):

How did you decide on that market in the first place, like how did you choose the market that you work with?

Jim (27:23):

Because of what Rick Mayo told me. And he said that that 80%, those are the people who are out of shape. They can’t move, they don’t have any energy, some of them are morbidly obese. And those, I mean, those are the people who are scared to death to step foot in a gym. A lot of them, I found out they don’t know what clothes to wear to a gym, you know? So we have to sometimes tell them what to wear their first time in the gym because they don’t have any gym clothes and they don’t know what to wear. So the reason I picked that demographic to answer your question is I felt like it’s a much bigger slice of the pie and that we can have much more impact with those people’s lives than we can with the 20%.

Chris (28:12):

Do you show overweight people or elderly people then in your marketing, Jim? That’s really interesting. I know a lot of our audience owns CrossFit gyms and the original slogan of CrossFit was forging elite fitness, which meant that you were basically trying to attract the top five to 10% of exercisers, not just the 20%, you know, a quarter of those people maybe. And so that created a lot of interest in the beginning for early adopters, but later on, you were really fighting for the same people. So if you’re a CrossFit gym, maybe that’s been advertising forging elite fitness, and all of your media shows these super fit people, how would you start making the change to appeal to this broader audience?

Jim (28:54):

Well, I would start by changing the images you show in your marketing. I would start by adding a different on-ramp class or program for them because they’re not going to be able to do what the five to 10% or even the 20% can do. They’re not going to have that mobility. They’re not going to have that energy level. So you have to design a program for them where they leave each day with a win instead of leaving discouraged, which will lead to them quitting and burning out. So I think it has to be everything, it has to be from the scripts you use on your leads to the images you use in your marketing, the scripts you use on your leads to the people in your gym to the programming, it has to be all across the board. You can’t just change the images on your marketing without changing all the other ones, because then they’ll come in and it’ll be in ongruent from what they see to what they’re getting.

Chris (29:55):

I think that’s a really excellent point. Even when gyms feature somebody who’s lost a hundred pounds, that’s a tiny fraction of their media. Jim, do you think the problem is that as trainers, we spend too much time trying to impress or talk to other trainers, is that part of it?

Jim (30:13):

Absolutely. This is a business. There’s a lot of people with egos in this business. And I think that is probably one of the biggest things holding us back as an industry, which is why I always advocate for a mentor group or mastermind groups. And that’s reason I started the podcast is so that we can start to be a little bit more collaborative and think bigger, right? Because everybody has like their super secret WOD or their super secret lunge or squat or push-up. But when it gets right down to it, most of the people that come in, they don’t care. They don’t care about the programming. You know, all they want to do is feel better, lose weight, you know, have more energy, all of that stuff. They could care less what the programming is. I mean, me as a trainer, when I go into like a big franchise, like, the color one, everybody knows what that one is.

Jim (31:15):

Or, there’s another bootcamp, you know, that’s named after a guy, right. I go in there and this was pre COVID or even like one of those cycling places. I went to one of those fancy cycling places when I was out in LA and as a trainer, I’m looking at the program and I’m going, this is crap. This is absolute crap. I would never do this. I would never do with my clients, but I look around and it’s packed and people love it. Right. So I would say absolutely. It’s an industry where people are trying to become the trainer’s trainer, so to speak instead of trying to reach their clients and impact their lives and thinking on those terms.

Chris (32:00):

That’s I think really deep and pretty profound. Honestly, Ji., You know, we work with or we see a lot of trainers who’ve just finished the certification. And two years later, they’re out of the industry. What can we do as leaders to help these people maintain or build a career in fitness?

Jim (32:18):

Well, we have to—when you’re on your own, whether you’re a one-person show training at a big box gym or you’re renting space, and it’s just you, and you’re a one person show to if you have other trainers underneath you, I think you have to take off your—to the use E-Myth, you have to take off your technician’s hat and put on your entrepreneur’s hat, your leader hat, you know, so I think we have to make them aware that being a great trainer is not enough to make your business successful. And that’s whether you’re training just clients by the session, or if you have a bigger facility that has memberships. You still have to run it as a business and not as a trainer. So you have to be aware of that skillset. And we have to help people climb that learning curve, we have to be a resource for them to help them climb that learning curve so that they can have successful business.

Jim (33:22):

Because let me tell you something, there’s another one. This is another mistake I made. And this is why I wound up joining the Secret Trainer Society is that there’s nothing more frustrating than working your ass off, like working 12 hours a day. It’s like, you know, the grind of a trainer, you know, you go in early in the morning, you train all your people, you eat your food out of some Tupperware or something. And then you may have workouts—do a training session for yourself. And then you’re going back and you’re training clients in the evening. And then you go home and rinse and repeat, right? So that can lead to burnout, you know, and there’s nothing worse than working those hours, six, seven days a week. And then at the end of the day, you got nothing to show for it. You know, if you want to open a business, then you have to run it like a business. Not like it’s a side hustle, not like it’s a hobby. You have to run it like a business. So that at the end of the day, your reward for suffering is not failure, right? If you’re going to suffer and work your ass off, you want something to show for it. And so you want a business that works for you, you know, not you slaving for the business where you’re paying some of your trainers more than you’re able to draw for yourself.

Chris (34:49):

That’s I think an amazing point to leave it on there, Jim, but I would like to invite you back another time so we can keep talking about these like big fitness industry trends, maybe as things open up again.

Jim (35:01):

Yeah, absolutely. I would love that, Chris.

Chris (35:03):

That’s great. Where can people reach you, Jim?

Jim (35:05):

They can reach me at trainerjimfe@gmail.net. And that’s Jim J I M not J Y M. Or you can go to a trainerjim.net to look up the podcast. My studio is Catalyst STL, we’re the St. Louis version, not the Canadian version of Catalyst catalyststl.com. And you can reach me there. And my email there is Jim, jim_a@catalyststl.com.

Chris (35:38):

That’s great, man. We’ll put those in the show notes. There is a gym in Buffalo that has Catalystfitness.com. You know, I have catalystgym.com and I still think it’s the best name for a gym out there.

Jim (35:54):

I mean, it’s exactly what we should be doing. Right. We should be a catalyst for change.

Chris (35:57):

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks a lot for coming on and educating us, Jim.

Jim (36:01):

Thanks for having me, Chris, it’s been a pleasure.

Andrew (36:06):

That was Chris Cooper on Two-Brain Radio. To get Chris’s new book, “Gym Owners Handbook,” and start growing your fitness business today, click the link in the show notes.

 

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