Jane Rawson's Blog, page 3

From the Wreck in the papers

What a big weekend my small book had over Easter, with reviews in the Fairfax papers (SMH/Age/Canberra Times) and the Weekend Australian.

Adam Rivett at Fairfax said “[the limits of genre] make Jane Rawson’s new novel all the more striking – two paths are likewise drawn, yet the fences that might divide them do not hold. Instead, the paths meld and melt, producing something truly unique and disquieting.” You can read the whole thing here.

Ed Wright at the Australian said “In less capable hands these narrative facts would accumulate to preposterousness and tempt the reader to abandon the ship of the book. Rawson, however, has the rare talent of stretching our capacity to believe, while at the same time making us feel genuinely for the characters.” You can read this review here.

And this past weekend the Adelaide Advertiser also ran a review, which my South Australian uncle was kind enough to scan and send to me. Katharine England talks about “the magical delicacy of Rawson’s concept, the lightness of the writing, the resonant humanity and gentle humour”; the whole review is here..

What to expect when you’re expecting a book: #3 Publicity

An offer to an author from a publishing house consists of two key elements: first, the advance on royalties they’re prepared to pay you, and second, their marketing plan. It is easy to focus on the money, but the marketing and publicity is arguably just as—if not more—important.

In theory, pre-release publicity begets buzz which begets larger orders from booksellers which begets better visibility in bookshops which begets (hopefully) more sales which begets more orders etc. Getting influential people with large audiences to talk about your book is the ultimate goal but every little bit helps so don’t underestimate small niche platforms for generating reader interest.

No one is really sure what sells books. It’s possible nothing sells books. But despite this, people involved with your book will do a series of things that are widely thought to sell books. They will try to get reviews in the papers and on prominent blogs. They’ll try to get you into bookstores and libraries to talk about your book. They’ll pitch you to festivals (more on that in a later edition). They might try to get you on the radio or even – heavens! – on TV.

Who is this ‘they’? That’s the real question. At least part of this ‘they’ is you, the writer.

How much of this job is up to you, the writer, will likely depend on who is publishing your book and what they reckon their return on investment will be for the effort they put into publicising it. It varies a lot from publisher to publisher.

Even with the same publisher, things can change as staff change. One author had to do a lot of her own publicity for her first book but with her second book was given a clear schedule of press opportunities. So it’s always worth asking your publisher what they’ve got planned and what they expect from you.

Don’t be afraid to ask. They’re not going to cancel your contract and pulp your book just because you wanted to know whether they got around to sending your book to The Saturday Paper.

 

Jane

Both of my publishers are small. That has pros and cons from a publicity point of view. They aren’t publishing stacks of different books a month, which means they’re very focussed on me, at least for a short time. But they don’t have money for big publicity or marketing budgets, so it’s all about  networking and  reputation and  word of mouth.

Although neither of my publishers has a dedicated publicity team, both have done significant work on pre-release publicity, sending out review copies to online and print reviewers and pitching the book to radio shows. One of my publishers has taken on a contract publicist for periods to get my book out there.

And of course, you can help too. If you have contacts in the book world – at bookshops or radio stations, online or in the press – let your publisher know about them so they can take advantage. If you have some kind of social media presence, it’s ok to use it to talk about your book now and then – your friends and followers will want to know you have a book out and where they can get it (we’ll talk more about social media in a later post). And if you have friends with blogs, ask them if you can do an interview on their blog, or write a post about your book. Again, this is a good time to call in some favours – it took forever to write that book, so you want people to know it exists and get a chance to read it. Being good isn’t enough – even the best books will never get read if no one knows about them.

So what kind of results were there for A Wrong Turn? Before the book came out, I was interviewed by my two local papers, The Footscray Star and The Maribyrnong Weekly and there was a review in Books & Publishing (they weren’t that keen on the book).

Shortly after release, Readings Bookshop reviewed my book on their website and around the same time I was interviewed by three local radio stations, 3CR, SYN and 3RRR (this one mainly because my launcher also has a radio show). There was also a short review in The Age/SMH/Canberra Times (they panned it).

About a month later there was a favourable review in the Adelaide Advertiser and a month after that the same in The Australian. And a handful of blogs, including ANZLitLovers, either reviewed the book or interviewed me in the couple of months after release. It felt like a pretty good result to me; certainly, Formaldehyde got a lot less attention (debuts seem to get more, and novellas generally get less, excepting the awesome run Nick Earls has had with his recent series).

[image error]Your book could be in here (pic: Joanna Burns/Flickr)

 

 

Annabel

My first two novels were published by small, independent presses. Typically, such presses have one person who is responsible for the marketing and publicity for every book on their list. With such limited resources, there is only so much they can do, so a lot of pre-release publicity will come down to you, the author. Your publisher will generally focus on traditional news outlets and magazines, while you might focus on blogs and social media.

When my first novel A New Map of the Universe was published in 2005, UWA Publishing got me a big spread in The West Australian with a GIGANTIC photo of my face; however, with ever-shrinking books pages in print media, such opportunities are extremely difficult to come by for debut authors nowadays. I also went on a breakfast show on a local TV station and can confirm what they say about the camera adding five kilos!

When Fremantle Press published Whisky Charlie Foxtrot in 2012, their marketing manager Claire Miller arranged a meeting to tell me about their marketing and publicity plans and to pick my brains about how I might use my own contacts to assist. If they don’t initiate one themselves, I highly recommend arranging a marketing & publicity meeting with your publisher, at least three months before your release date. As well as arranging radio and print interviews, and sending out review copies, Fremantle Press got the ball rolling with an event for booksellers, where they plied them with food and drink, then talked up three of their upcoming releases, as well as giving each of the three authors an opportunity to briefly pitch our books, and then mingle with the booksellers. Though media (including social) has broader reach, don’t underestimate the power of having a bookseller in your corner. A significant proportion of my sales has come through loyal booksellers hand-selling my books.

When I self-published The Ark I had to really make use of my own contacts for publicity. I created my own media release and contacted anyone who had previously interviewed me or reviewed one of my books, in traditional print media, radio, or on blogs. I arranged a ‘blog tour’ of interviews, guest post, reviews and so on to coincide with the release of the book. I also engaged a freelance publicist, who had formerly worked for a major Australian publisher. Though I believe she worked hard pitching the book on my behalf, the results were disappointing, and most of the publicity we were successful in securing was with people who were already familiar with my work or with whom I already had relationships (mostly through interacting on blogs or Twitter)… the old ‘it’s not what you know, it’s who you know’ scenario.

 

Some words from other authors

Maria Katsonis, author of The Good Greek Girl and co-editor of Rebellious Daughters, hired a publicist for both her books. She told us:

Once upon a time in a former life, I worked in the arts as a theatre producer. Putting bums on seats was a central part of my role and this understanding of the importance of marketing partly influenced my decision to hire a publicist when my first book came out. As a relatively unknown writer, I also wanted to make sure my book wasn’t lost in the sea of new titles released every month. Yes my publisher had an in-house publicist but they had other books to promote and my publicist worked alongside them to maximise my book’s exposure in a competitive media landscape.

The investment was worth every single cent in terms of increasing book visibility and my author platform, to use the jargon. I had some 15 interviews including features with the Sunday Age, Radio National, ABC Radio, and SBS. It’s hard to measure whether the coverage translated into book sales but it did make it easier to organise festival appearances and other literary events, extending the book’s longevity for about 18 months after it was published (the long tail as my publisher calls it). The success of the publicity campaign convinced me to again hire an independent publicist when my second book was published, an anthology I co-edited. This time we not only had strong media coverage (including television) but also book extracts published in The Australian Women’s Weekly, The Good Weekend, The Age and SBS online.

I would do it again in a heartbeat.

And Sara Foster gave us some insight into what can happen when you’re with one of the big publishers:

My publisher Simon & Schuster have been brilliant at getting my books some early buzz. There are lots of different elements to this, such as alerting early readers on NetGalley, or talking about the book regularly to key people in the trade, whether it be booksellers or for marketing/publicity purposes. S&S are very good at putting digital media packages together so everything has the same look. Getting sample chapters out to people is important to whet their appetite.

Promotions are great too: for my latest release (The Hidden Hours), S&S reduced the price of one of my previous ebooks in the run-up to publication. For my last book, All That is Lost Between Us, I did a blog tour around some of the best book bloggers in Australia (these people are amazing readers and very supportive of the Australian book industry). S&S put window dressing packages together for booksellers which has resulted in quite a few bookshop displays.

All this helps to stand out in a crowded market. Ideas like these can be adapted to either assist your publishing team, or to self-promote if you’re an indie author. Just take care with your approach, make sure it’s polite and respectful because most people are super busy, and make sure your material is pre-prepared and professional, so they immediately understand what you are pitching to them.

We’d love to hear your experiences of publicity for your debut novel, particularly if they’re strange or hilarious – leave them in the comments below. Or feel free to ask us a question.

Coming next: #4 Prizes, festivals and other appearances

Read the rest of the series, What to expect when you’re expecting a book

Visit Annabel Smith’s site

 

[image error]An actual image of excitement building for your book

What to expect when you’re expecting a book: #2 The launch

Annabel Smith and I are writing a series on what to expect when your first book comes out – all those questions you’re too embarrassed to ask your publisher, answered here!

Part 2 is about the launch. Will your publisher throw you one? Do you even need one? What’s it going to cost and will you ever make it back in royalties?

[image error]

Fabulous launch parties for which publishers foot the bill seem to be less and less common nowadays. When faced with covering the cost themselves, writers often ask ‘do I need to have a launch party?’ If your aim is to sell books, don’t bother with a launch: most of the people who come will probably buy your book anyway, and any money you make from sales will be eaten up by the costs of buying food and wine.

However, if you yearn for a book launch to celebrate your achievement, you should have one. For most writers, a book launch is the culmination of many years work. Some days, weeks or even months might have been uphill all the way. You may have collected a string of rejections along the road to publication. But here at last is the book! No longer a file on your computer but an actual object, made out of paper with words printed on it, for others to touch and maybe even read! Isn’t that worth celebrating?

In this post, Jane Rawson and I share our own launch experiences as part of our series on what we’ve learned about the period just before and after your book hits the shelves..

Read the rest of the guide to your launch on Annabel Smith’s blog 

And if you’d like to go back a step, read up on how to get blurbs.

Some From the Wreck media

I’m just going to put these here so I can find them later….

Over the past couple of weeks, From the wreck has been reviewed in:

Australian Book Review – Fiona Wright said it was ‘a deeply ecological novel…fascinating for its hybridity, its willingness to bend and blend genres – as well as perspectives and worlds. Animated by deep curiosity and wild imagination, it is a fascinating exploration of what these might bring to the stories we tell about the past.’ I’ve added a grubby scan that you can enlarge and read should you wish to know more: ABR review: ‘Shards and vivid angles’
The Lifted Brow – Doug Wallen said ‘Despite its period setting, From the Wreck is as an evergreen fable about self-inflicted suffering, whether through guilt or other ways of torturing ourselves. The book may divide its focus quite a bit, and could certainly have been fleshed out more in several facets, but Rawson handles this unusual mix of atmospheric history and hungrily curious sci-fi with a steady hand. Even her most offbeat rich language is employed in the trusted service of the fraught emotional territory in which she’s so interested and so invested’: The Lifted Brow review – ‘We found a billion realities’.

I also had a chat with Michael Cathcart at ABC Radio National’s ‘Books and Arts’. Along with Elizabeth Tan (author of Rubik) and Patrick Lenton (author of A man made entirely of bats) we tried to figure out what weird fiction is – is it even a thing?

What to expect when you’re expecting a book: #1 Blurbs

So your first book has been accepted for publication: congratulations! You’ve been through edits, the cover is chosen, and it’s about to go off to the printers. In the next few months your face will be all over television and you’ll be getting daily bank deposits of thousands of dollars. Right?

Maybe not.

All authors’ experiences are different, but we (Jane Rawson and Annabel Smith) thought you might like to know what we’ve learned about the period just before and after your book hits the shelves.

Jane: Recently my fourth book – a novel – was published. I’m with a small independent publisher, and they’ve previously published another novel of mine, and a non-fiction book about climate change that I co-authored with an environment journalist. My other book, a novella, was published by a different, even smaller independent publisher. None of my books has been published outside Australia, and I’m not represented by an agent.

Annabel: I published my first two novels with small independent publishers. My second novel was sold by my West Australian publisher to a small(ish) independent publisher in the US, where it has gone on to sell more than 60,000 copies. My third book, an interactive digital novel/app was self-published. I am currently in talks with a North American agent in relation to my fourth novel, the first in a trilogy.

We’ll be posting on alternate weeks – one week on my blog, one week on Annabel’s.

Issue #1: Getting a blurb

Often, publishers will ask you to find someone famous-ish to say something kind about your book that they can stick on the front cover. When it’s your first book it can be tricky, because there’s a good chance you don’t know anyone famous-ish.

This is where you have to put your shyness and shame aside. Call in some favours. Ask friends if they know anyone. Google contact details of people you’d like to blurb your book. Hit people up on twitter. And ask everyone – it’s embarrassing, sure, but you just have to do it. Eventually someone will say yes. When they do, send them the manuscript as promptly as you can to give them the maximum possible time to read it – if it’s a rush they’re more likely to decline – and be clear about when you need to get a blurb back.

 

Annabel

For my first novel, which I wrote as part of a PhD, the blurbs were drawn from the examiner’s reports. For my second novel, I asked two writing colleagues to blurb for me, and to my delight, they both said yes, largely, I suspect, because I had fostered relationships with them over several years. When I was self-publishing The Ark, I made a wish-list of seventeen authors whose books I admired and whose works had something in common with mine, emailing each of them with a customised request. Here’s an example, of the email I sent to Hugh Howey:

Dear Mr Howey,

I am writing to ask you a favour, but one which I hope might give you some pleasure. I wonder if you would consent to reading my novel THE ARK with a view to providing a cover quote (assuming, of course, the content appeals).

My first novel, A NEW MAP OF THE UNIVERSE (UWA Publishing) was shortlisted for the Western Australian Premier¹s Book Awards in 2007, and my second novel WHISKY CHARLIE FOXTROT (Fremantle Press) was released last year to critical and popular acclaim.

THE ARK: In the very near future, when the world as we know it implodes, a group of scientists and their families retreat into a bunker inside Mount Kosciusko, alongside five billion plant seeds which hold the key to the future of life on earth. Due to be selfpublished in February 2012 THE ARK explores the darker side of human nature in the wake of environmental catastrophe, and the story is told through a collection of digital documents including web pages, blog posts, emails, text messages and conversation transcripts.

I often describe THE ARK as ‘Wool meets Super Sad True Love Story’. I believe it would appeal to readers of relationship-driven quality speculative-fiction exactly like the Wool series. I discovered your work via your interview on the self-publishing podcast in September last year and have since been an unashamed torchbearer for the series, eagerly awaiting Dust and the revelation of what happens to Juliette. To have your endorsement on the cover of THE ARK would significantly help with the book being discovered by the right audience and would mean a great deal to me. I’m sure you receive many requests of this kind and I know you are working on the next Molly Fyde book, therefore I understand if it is not possible for you to assist with my request. But, at only 55,000 words THE ARK is just a little dumpling of a book and if, by chance, you are amenable, I can provide you with a hard or soft copy of the manuscript immediately. I need a cover quote by the end of October 2013.

Some sample pages are attached to give you a sense of its flavour. I look forward very much to hearing from you.

Kind regards, etc

To my utter astonishment, Hugh Howey replied to my email the very same night! Here is what he wrote: ‘I love the premise of this, and you can flat-out write! I was hooked by the very first document. It took a ton of creativity to put all these found pieces together, and the presentation is top-notch’.

[image error]Thanks, Hugh!

How nice is that? He told me he wouldn’t have time to read the whole ms for some time so I sent it to him and waited. Meanwhile, of the other 16 authors, around half politely (and sometimes encouragingly) declined; the other half: *crickets*. At this time my printing deadline was drawing near and I really felt like I needed Hugh Howey’s endorsement, but after his initial enthusiasm, he hadn’t responded to any of my emails.

After much deliberation, I wrote him one final email, informing him that I would be quoting his email on the cover of my book, unless advised otherwise. As expected, I didn’t hear back from him, so the quote went on the book. I felt weird about it, because I didn’t feel that he’d technically given me permission. At the same time, I had done all I could to allow him to stop me from using the quote, if he didn’t want to endorse my book.

For the publication of Whiskey & Charlie in the US, things were a lot less complicated. My publisher secured amazing blurbs from two New York Times bestselling authors, including Australia’s own Graeme Simsion. Huzzah!

[image error]

 

Jane

A wrong turn… was my first novel and I was pretty terrified when the publisher asked if I knew anyone who might blurb it. I’d just finished reading Dave Graney’s bizarre and brilliant memoir(ish), 1001 Australian Nights and I utterly loved it. How cool would it be if he blurbed my book? Luckily I knew one of my friends knew him, so I asked if he could ask, and Dave (miraculously) said sure, he’d love to read it. I was also lucky that another friend is good mates with Steven Amsterdam, and Steven’s Things we didn’t see coming was a huge influence on my early work. Steven also said he’d have a read, as long as it was OK if he said no once he’d read it. Of course it was OK if he said no. Luckily he didn’t say no. [Annabel’s note: Steven Amsterdam was one of the writers who declined to blurb The Ark, which illustrates that people might accept or decline based on a range of factors, including timing, connections etc so it’s always worth a try.]

[image error]So kind!

For my most recent book, From the wreck, I asked all kinds of people who were really unlikely to ever reply to my email, let alone say yes.

Here’s the kind of email I sent out.

 

Dear [agent],

I am hoping you can pass on a request to one of your authors, Peter Carey. Does Mr Carey consider writing ‘blurbs’ for other authors’ novels? I know it’s a long shot, but ‘The Australian’ has kindly compared my writing to his earlier work so I thought I would get in touch.

My next novel, ‘From the Wreck’, will be published in Australia by Transit Lounge in May 2017. This is the publisher’s description:

“Jane Rawson’s From the Wreck (May 2017) tells the story of George Hills, who survived the wreck of the Admella steamship off the South Australian coast in 1859. He is haunted by the  spirit of a fellow survivor, Bridget Ledwith. Both real and transformative this is a novel imbued with poetry and feeling: a woman from another dimension seeks refuge on Earth and a little boy holds the entire history of another planet in his head. Like Walter Tevis’s The Man Who Fell to Earth it evokes an existential loneliness.”

I am a huge admirer of Mr Carey’s writing and would be immensely flattered if he would consider reading the manuscript. 

Yours,

Jane Rawson

 

Peter Carey’s agent told me he doesn’t blurb books. George Saunders replied, but said ‘no’ in his extremely polite way. Ali Smith and Kevin Barry and Jenny Offil’s agents didn’t reply. I also hit up a couple of my twitter followers, including amazingly imaginative author Lian Hearn, who I knew had liked A wrong turn… Lian said yes. And then she wrote me this amazing blurb.

[image error]A miracle!

And if you’re wondering whether there’s anyone too famous to ask, the answer is ‘no’. Mel Campbell and Anthony Morris searched high and low for someone to blurb their new novel, The Hot Guy, and nothing was working. Then they found out one of their friends used to be friends with Luke ‘The Other’ Hemsworth.

[image error]

They asked him to ask Luke if he would blurb their book. Not only did he say ‘yes’, he sent this:

[image error]If I was made to read one book for eternity it would be Lord of the Rings. This would be my second choice.’ – Luke Hemsworth

Best blurb ever.

So in summary: Be brave! Get blurbed!

Next week: #2 Pre-publication publicity.

 

Some ‘From the wreck’ interviews and reviews

I’ve done a few interviews over the past couple of weeks. ‘Published or not’ on Melbourne radio station 3CR had a chat with me about the metaphysics of From the wreck – it was the first time I’d heard someone else read the book out loud, and it sounded great!

Annabel Smith asked me about the five things that made the writer I am, and gave me a chance to talk about my parents, my friends, my husband and my publisher, as well as human rights in 1980s Latin America, oddly enough.

Maureen Eppen also got me to mention Uruguay – as well as Edith Campbell Berry and catastrophic fires – in a chat I had with her about my strange reading habits for her blog Shelf Awareness. Maureen also interviewed me for Good Reading, but you’ll have to buy the magazine to read it.

Reviews of From the wreck are popping up all over the internet, including at:

Arts News – a review that looks at the loneliness at the heart of the book, and calls it ‘mysterious, tragic, and heartfelt in equal measure. An absolute must read.’
The Book Muse
Mostly Books bookstore in Adelaide
Blue Wolf Reviews
Readings bookstore in Melbourne

Why not come along to the launch on Tuesday 21 March at 7pm at the Sun Bookshop in Yarraville?

Favourite feminist books, because it’s International Women’s Day

[image error]Painting by Mary-Jane Ansell

Happy International Women’s Day! As part of a (one-year-old) tradition, I’m listing my favourite feminist books since last International Women’s Day.

Since March 8 last year I’ve read about 90 books, and around 55 of those were by women. Below are eight of my faves (in line with it being March 8), with links to reviews that (sometimes) talk about the book’s feminist themes.

Captive prince by CS Pacat
Dying in the first person by Nike Sulway (criminally overlooked for this year’s Stella Prize)
Long Bay by Eleanor Limprecht
Portable curiosities by Julie Koh
Ancillary Justice by Anne Leckie
Pond by Claire-Louise Bennett
Olive Kitteridge by Elizabeth Strout
The pumpkin eater by Penelope Mortimer

What are your favourite feminist reads of the past year? What are you reading now? I’ve just started My name is Lucy Barton by Elizabeth Strout (and meanwhile I’m watching the HBO series of Olive Kitteridge) and it’s blowing my mind.

[image error]Painting by Ada Thilen

 

 

 

Welcome to the world, From the Wreck

[image error]

Today is From the Wreck’s first official day of life. I’ve already seen it out in the wild – at Melbourne bookshops Paperback Bookstore, Readings in Carlton, Hill of Content and Dymocks on Collins Street – and I’ve heard rumours of it from Better Read than Dead in Sydney and Avid Reader in Brisbane. It’s in the Amazon Kindle store and online at Booktopia, Fishpond and from the publisher, Transit Lounge.  Or you could try to win a copy on Goodreads.

I should be used to this by now. I’m not. I’m finding it pretty hard to think about anything other than my book being out there in the world, and what will people think of it, and will it make any sense to them at all. What about people who liked my other books: are they going to be disappointed by this one? It doesn’t have as many jokes…

It was so heartening to read this review from Newtown Review of Books. Linda Godfrey, the reviewer, has understood all the things I was trying to say, which is kind of amazing given I disguised them in a story about a shipwreck and an interstellar octopus, and that some of them were buried very, very deep. It feels incredible to have someone read your work so closely and so kindly.

There have also been some other early reviews. Robin Elizabeth at Write or Wrong reckons it’s the best book she’s read since Patrick Susskind’s Perfume, which is a massive compliment and makes me wonder if a copy of From the Wreck will one day be pressed upon an unsuspecting backpacker in a Kathmandu hostel, along with an offer of a massage. One can only hope.

Lisa at ANZ Lit Lovers was kept awake thinking about the book, so take that as a warning (this isn’t the first time I’ve interrupted her sleep and I probably owe her a sedative glass or two of wine in compensation).

And Books & Publishing wrote a review that you can only see if you’re a subscriber, so I’ll sneakily paste it here:

In 1859, the steamship Admella sunk off the coast of South Australia. Among the few lucky survivors was sailor George Hills and a mysterious woman who vanished upon her rescue. These are facts of history, but Jane Rawson’s novel From the Wreck follows George home to colonial Port Adelaide. Travelling with him is the woman—a lonely shape-shifter from another dimension who binds herself invisibly to George and his son Henry, a peculiar boy who collects skeletons and sees strange visions of a world made of water and devoid of time. Rawson’s previous work, the 2015 novella Formaldehyde, demonstrated her astonishing ability to take seemingly dissonant ideas and have them make perfect, exquisite sense. On the surface, From The Wreck’s alternating perspectives of a PTSD-ridden sailor, a peculiar young boy and an alien cephalopod sounds farcical, but Rawson’s clear, lyrical prose—with its deep undercurrent of empathy—creates a breathtaking and revelatory reading experience. From The Wreck borrows from science-fiction, history and magical realism, forming a whole that is utterly unique and distinctly Australian. While Briohny Doyle’s The Island Will Sink pushed harder on its sci-fi elements, readers of the former will appreciate Rawson’s more lyrical, magical addition to the new groundswell of stellar Australian literary science-fiction. This is a masterpiece.

I should probably go celebrate the public birth of my book with a cocktail, but instead I’m going to the dentist. Wish me luck.

A Goodreads giveaway

If you’d love to read From the Wreck but would really rather not pay for it (the cost of books these days!), then why not enter this Goodreads giveaway to win a free copy? There’s no cost to enter.

From the Wreck interview on 3RRR

Yesterday I did my first interview for From the Wreck, with Elizabeth and Lou from 3RRR’s ‘Multi Storied’. It was a great little chat. If you’d like to have a listen, you can go to 3RRR’s Radio On Demand.