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Quag Keep (Greyhawk) #1
Quag Keep
Quag Keep was the first novel based on the world of Dungeons & Dragons by the legendary grand mistress of SF/Fantasy, Andre Norton. Once, they were role-playing gamers in our world.
They came from different places and different backgrounds.
Now they're summoned together by some magical force...to a land that mirrors the games they used to play.
Quag Keep
Can they band together to unlock the secret of their summoning--and rescue from the legendary Quag Keep the person who may be able to return them home?
They came from different places and different backgrounds.
Now they're summoned together by some magical force...to a land that mirrors the games they used to play.
Quag Keep
Can they band together to unlock the secret of their summoning--and rescue from the legendary Quag Keep the person who may be able to return them home?
272 pages, Paperback
First published January 1, 1978
97 people are currently reading
766 people want to read
About the author
Andre Norton
695 books1,384 followersAndre Norton, born Alice Mary Norton, was a pioneering American author of science fiction and fantasy, widely regarded as the Grande Dame of those genres. She also wrote historical and contemporary fiction, publishing under the pen names Andre Alice Norton, Andrew North, and Allen Weston. She launched her career in 1934 with The Prince Commands, adopting the name “Andre” to appeal to a male readership. After working for the Cleveland Library System and the Library of Congress, she began publishing science fiction under “Andrew North” and fantasy under her own name. She became a full-time writer in 1958 and was known for her prolific output, including Star Man’s Son, 2250 A.D. and Witch World, the latter spawning a long-running series and shared universe. Norton was a founding member of the Swordsmen and Sorcerers' Guild of America and authored Quag Keep, the first novel based on the Dungeons & Dragons game. She influenced generations of writers, including Lois McMaster Bujold and Mercedes Lackey. Among her many honors were being the first woman named Gandalf Grand Master of Fantasy and SFWA Grand Master. In her later years, she established the High Hallack Library to support research in genre fiction. Her legacy continues with the Andre Norton Award for young adult science fiction and fantasy.
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Displaying 1 - 30 of 130 reviews
December 22, 2014
This is where it all began. The first ever novel based on a role-playing game. The book that launched a genre with a thousand titles.
An unkind critic might say that it set the tone of things to come.
Quag Keep is a book of many mysteries. The chief of them, to my mind, is the question of how did Andre Norton turn out something so deeply disappointing. At the time of its publication in 1978, she'd been writing professionally for over forty years. The World Science Fiction Society had awarded her the Gandalf Grand Master a year previously, the SFWA would name her Grand Master five years in the future. She'd been already nominated twice for the Hugo. These are not honours lightly bestowed and put her amongst names like Tolkien, Asimov, Bradbury, Clarke, Moorcock, Le Guin, Leiber, and a dozen other undisputed masters of the craft. To pick up something from an author of such singular credentials and receive this was somewhat jarring.
I think it just goes to show that every author had their off days. Moorcock has his Jerry Cornelius tales, Heinlein his Lazarus Longs. Norton, apparently, has this.
The story of Quag Keep is… I'm not actually sure there's a story. There's a plot, certainly, but there's no real tension. The main characters are seven adventurers in the world of Greyhawk, who are also player characters in a role-playing game, who get somehow melded with their players. The players' memories are subsumed for more or less the entire time, so this is just a device to get them to meet in a tavern and go upon the most railroaded adventure in the history of gaming.
They also each have been given unremovable bracers with sets of dice on them that rule their fate. Additionally, a wizard places a geas upon them to go and solve this thing lest the world be beset by some cataclysm or other.
The prose starts out purple and overwrought, but somehow becomes simpler and easier to read towards the end, possibly as the author got as fed up with the tale as I did. At the start, we get lines like this:
The characterization is also weak, and especially the focal character, the swordsman Milo Jagon, is boring and his dominant, pretty much only, character trait seems to be insecurity. The story keeps a distance from its characters and they end up having little in the way of personality. This only really works in the case of Gulth, the lizardman, who is inscrutable and difficult for mortals to understand. This works less well for, say, the elf Ingrge, though once you've named a character Ingrge, there's not much you can do to save him.
The lizardman character has some other problems in his depiction. The novel makes a big point of his cold-bloodedness and he nearly dies of the cold in the mountains. He is saved by wrapping him in blankets. Ectothermy does not work that way. It's the bloody definition of the concept. A blanket, which basically insulates heat, is good for a warm-blooded creature like a human, whose body generates warmth, but will do jack for a reptile who relies nearly entirely on outside heat sources.
The world is… well, sort of there. Though the book is ostensibly based on the World of Greyhawk, this only holds for some of the nomenclature. There's the free city of Greyhawk, but the world through which our intrepid heroes traverses is all but unrecognizable to one familiar with the more recent and fleshed-out depictions of the setting. According to a Q&A forum thread with Gary Gygax, Andre Norton made most of it up herself, and it cannot be taken as a representation of some sort of proto-Greyhawk.
This brings us to the inclusion of game elements. The novels of Margaret Weis or R.A. Salvatore are often criticized for the reader "being able to hear the dice roll", for wearing their game system origins on their sleeves. Well, Dragonlance ain't got nothing on Quag Keep, where the dice really do roll. The characters also seem aware of rules concepts. The party's cleric is described as a cleric of "the third rank", and Milo Jagon is explicitly and repeatedly titled "a swordsman", which was the level title for a 3rd-level fighter. Therefore, we may determine that the party is about third-level. This doesn't really jive with the stuff that they accomplish, but I'll let that slide since there is a limit to how much I am willing to complain about the depiction of game rules in a work of fiction. But if you're going to use them, get them right, dammit!
Quag Keep is also remarkably didactic in its depiction of the alignment system. We are told how all swordsmen cleave to the side of Law and how orcs are servants of Chaos. On the face of it, it looks like the Moorcockian Law–Chaos thing, but it's really just good and evil by different names. The narration is remarkably contemptuous of neutrals, for some reason. Seriously, The Dark Elf Trilogy had more subtlety in its treatment of alignment.
So, all in all, we have a third-rate fantasy novel with some remarkably stilted prose. Or do we?
As a gamer, I can tease out another reading. It does not really make the book any better, but hear me out. Read as a critique of a bad gaming session, the book becomes quite interesting (and we also run into the problem of deliberately bad literature, which I've tackled in the past). The geas and the cursed dice are a depiction of heavy-handed railroading. Much like the player characters in such a campaign, the adventurers of Quag Keep have no agency and little control over their fates. The partial and controllable nature of the dice in their cursed bracers is a metaphor of this lack of freedom, and the resolution of the story,
The characters have no personality because they are poorly roleplayed and are more or less extensions of their teenage players' developing personalities. Milo is insecure because he's played by a teenage guy with a crush on the only girl in the group. The game terminology leaks into the story because the players keep talking rules during the game and the Law–Chaos conflict is brought front and centre because of its connection with a simplistic playstyle where all orcs are evil and therefore free game and a character's alignment is all the nuance their moral outlook requires. The modern idioms in the dialogue are because the players don't quite handle the elevated style they're going for in their in-character interaction.
So, Quag Keep is not completely irredeemable and does indeed display the mastery that Andre Norton is known for.
I just think it would've worked way better as a short story.
An unkind critic might say that it set the tone of things to come.
Quag Keep is a book of many mysteries. The chief of them, to my mind, is the question of how did Andre Norton turn out something so deeply disappointing. At the time of its publication in 1978, she'd been writing professionally for over forty years. The World Science Fiction Society had awarded her the Gandalf Grand Master a year previously, the SFWA would name her Grand Master five years in the future. She'd been already nominated twice for the Hugo. These are not honours lightly bestowed and put her amongst names like Tolkien, Asimov, Bradbury, Clarke, Moorcock, Le Guin, Leiber, and a dozen other undisputed masters of the craft. To pick up something from an author of such singular credentials and receive this was somewhat jarring.
I think it just goes to show that every author had their off days. Moorcock has his Jerry Cornelius tales, Heinlein his Lazarus Longs. Norton, apparently, has this.
The story of Quag Keep is… I'm not actually sure there's a story. There's a plot, certainly, but there's no real tension. The main characters are seven adventurers in the world of Greyhawk, who are also player characters in a role-playing game, who get somehow melded with their players. The players' memories are subsumed for more or less the entire time, so this is just a device to get them to meet in a tavern and go upon the most railroaded adventure in the history of gaming.
They also each have been given unremovable bracers with sets of dice on them that rule their fate. Additionally, a wizard places a geas upon them to go and solve this thing lest the world be beset by some cataclysm or other.
The prose starts out purple and overwrought, but somehow becomes simpler and easier to read towards the end, possibly as the author got as fed up with the tale as I did. At the start, we get lines like this:
"His pale face above the high-standing collar of his cloak marked him as one who dwelt much indoors by reason of necessity or choice. And, though his features were human enough in their cast, still Milo, seeing their impassivity, the thinness of his bloodless lips, the sharp-beak curve of his nose, hesitated to claim him as a brother man."As we near the end, run-on sentences are still the order of the day, but they are more straightforward:
This was no axe-swinging berserker but the were-boar, near as tall as the orc at the massive shoulder, grunting and squealing in a rage that only the death of an enemy might assuage. Milo leaped quickly to one side, lest the animal in battle madness turn on him also, as had been known to happen when friend and foe were pinned in narrow compass.Likewise, dialogue fluctuates between such florid phrasing and the occasional out-of-place modern idiom.
The characterization is also weak, and especially the focal character, the swordsman Milo Jagon, is boring and his dominant, pretty much only, character trait seems to be insecurity. The story keeps a distance from its characters and they end up having little in the way of personality. This only really works in the case of Gulth, the lizardman, who is inscrutable and difficult for mortals to understand. This works less well for, say, the elf Ingrge, though once you've named a character Ingrge, there's not much you can do to save him.
The lizardman character has some other problems in his depiction. The novel makes a big point of his cold-bloodedness and he nearly dies of the cold in the mountains. He is saved by wrapping him in blankets. Ectothermy does not work that way. It's the bloody definition of the concept. A blanket, which basically insulates heat, is good for a warm-blooded creature like a human, whose body generates warmth, but will do jack for a reptile who relies nearly entirely on outside heat sources.
The world is… well, sort of there. Though the book is ostensibly based on the World of Greyhawk, this only holds for some of the nomenclature. There's the free city of Greyhawk, but the world through which our intrepid heroes traverses is all but unrecognizable to one familiar with the more recent and fleshed-out depictions of the setting. According to a Q&A forum thread with Gary Gygax, Andre Norton made most of it up herself, and it cannot be taken as a representation of some sort of proto-Greyhawk.
This brings us to the inclusion of game elements. The novels of Margaret Weis or R.A. Salvatore are often criticized for the reader "being able to hear the dice roll", for wearing their game system origins on their sleeves. Well, Dragonlance ain't got nothing on Quag Keep, where the dice really do roll. The characters also seem aware of rules concepts. The party's cleric is described as a cleric of "the third rank", and Milo Jagon is explicitly and repeatedly titled "a swordsman", which was the level title for a 3rd-level fighter. Therefore, we may determine that the party is about third-level. This doesn't really jive with the stuff that they accomplish, but I'll let that slide since there is a limit to how much I am willing to complain about the depiction of game rules in a work of fiction. But if you're going to use them, get them right, dammit!
Quag Keep is also remarkably didactic in its depiction of the alignment system. We are told how all swordsmen cleave to the side of Law and how orcs are servants of Chaos. On the face of it, it looks like the Moorcockian Law–Chaos thing, but it's really just good and evil by different names. The narration is remarkably contemptuous of neutrals, for some reason. Seriously, The Dark Elf Trilogy had more subtlety in its treatment of alignment.
So, all in all, we have a third-rate fantasy novel with some remarkably stilted prose. Or do we?
As a gamer, I can tease out another reading. It does not really make the book any better, but hear me out. Read as a critique of a bad gaming session, the book becomes quite interesting (and we also run into the problem of deliberately bad literature, which I've tackled in the past). The geas and the cursed dice are a depiction of heavy-handed railroading. Much like the player characters in such a campaign, the adventurers of Quag Keep have no agency and little control over their fates. The partial and controllable nature of the dice in their cursed bracers is a metaphor of this lack of freedom, and the resolution of the story,
The characters have no personality because they are poorly roleplayed and are more or less extensions of their teenage players' developing personalities. Milo is insecure because he's played by a teenage guy with a crush on the only girl in the group. The game terminology leaks into the story because the players keep talking rules during the game and the Law–Chaos conflict is brought front and centre because of its connection with a simplistic playstyle where all orcs are evil and therefore free game and a character's alignment is all the nuance their moral outlook requires. The modern idioms in the dialogue are because the players don't quite handle the elevated style they're going for in their in-character interaction.
So, Quag Keep is not completely irredeemable and does indeed display the mastery that Andre Norton is known for.
I just think it would've worked way better as a short story.
June 23, 2016
3.5 stars rounded down to 3 stars
http://bookslifewine.com/r-quag-keep/
So, I'm sure it will come as no surprise to those who know me but I'm a huge Andre Norton fan. HUGE. I mainly delve into her Witch World series but I also have/read a good handful of her other works. One of the things I love about Andre Norton was that she dabbled in a lot of different genres, making her backlist a true treasure.
Quag Keep is one of those treasures I just mentioned. With the creation of Quag Keep, Andre Norton (yet again) changed the landscape of the written world about her. With Quag Keep, Andre Norton invented the idea of game novelization. In addition, Quag Keep is also the first novelization of the world of Dungeons & Dragons (D&D) - kicking off what would come to be a lucrative and long lasting trend.
One of the first things I noticed while reading Quag Keep was the major differences and similarities between Quag Keep (pub'd 1978) and the Witch World (pub'd 1963). The most prominent Witch World traits I noticed are the geas (an obligation or prohibition magically imposed on a person), the scent of corruption that those who are allied with the Dark (Chaos) emit and (strangely enough) the Sea of Dust. While Quag Keep has it's Sea of Dust, Norton's Witch World series has The Waste. The Waste is empty of most life but filled with relics. Norton seems to like deserts & always fills hers with ancient secrets waiting. . .
I did run into a handful of issues that I should have expected: I am not familiar with the gameplay of D&D (though I want to change that in the future!) so I was confused by the alignments. To make it more (and then less) complicated, there are three different editions of D&D with a shitton of alignments. Luckily for me, Norton's book was written during the first edition of D&D. So. There's Law, Neutral and Chaos. According to Wikipedia:
There are seven characters in our little D&D group. Each of them have been pulled from Earth to Greyhawk (the D&D universe) and they all are aligned either with Law or are neutral. There are four humans (swordsman, cleric, battlemaid and bard), one elf, one shifter (were-boar), and a Lizardman. The were-boar also has a miniature pet dragon named Afreeta. Quag Keep follows the swordsman, Milo Jagon (real name: Martin Jefferson) as the MC of the story.
There are a lot of game elements in Quag Keep - I'm sure I didn't find them all - and the elements were engrossing. I spent quite a bit of time trying to decipher which parts were pure Andre Norton vs which parts were game elements. Of course, as I've never played D&D, I had to wonder if the elements I noticed were elements that came from the tabletop editions of D&D and slowly found their way into computer/video games (which I do play).
One of the first game elements the reader is introduced to are the dice. Normally a [game] player rolls the dice to determine their possible moves. Norton repurposed the dice by turning them into bracelets. The bracelets are permanently attached to the character but the character has very little control of the dice - they spin when a "move" will be made but the characters cannot spin the die themselves. I have to admit that I was not a fan of the dice as bracelets and didn't find it to be exceptionally well done.
Other game elements I noticed were:
- The "questing party" is formed via a wizard's geas
- Magical jewelry (i.e. rings, bracelets, etc) are represented by the dice bracelets and Milo's two thumb rings
- light sources - in computer/video games if a player is in a dungeon there is limited to no light (reducing visibility). Quag Keep has the cleric, Deav Dyne, create a light source for the group.
All of the questing party members are aligned with Law with the exception of the Lizardman, Gulth, who is neutral. Gulth...had the most difficult trajectory in the storyline AND was treated the worse. The were-boar, Naile, and Milo seemed to fall in with each other from the very beginning and Naile had a major issue with Gulth. Naile's shield brother was killed in a war with some Lizardpeople and Naile has had a hatred for them ever since. Gulth barely speaks during Quag Keep - but he is also barely spoken to. He is treated with a lot of contempt - especially from Naile and especially in the beginning. Although the Lizardpeople are native to Greyhawk, Gulth and his people are considered alien.
Although Gulth saved Naile's life and is the only person who was capable to get the party to their final destination, Gulth is shown disappearing when the group is distracted by an attacked and no reason is given for this action. All in all, I felt Gulth was treated atrociously - thus making the ending of Quag Keep a bit unbelievable.
I see a lot game play in Quag Keep but I also see a lot of Witch World in it. The style of writing is a bit...dreamy in a way. It sorta reminds me of watching a movie while half-sleep. The read reminds me a LOT of Zarsthor's Bane (Witch World #11). Things -some times mundane and sometimes mystical - happen that are not fully explained. You just have to go with the flow and accept Norton's word for some things. I was interesting in reading book two - Return to Quag Keep - when I finished, though.
Final Word: I enjoyed this quite a bit but a lot of my group members feel it's...showing its age and found it to be a difficult read. I recommend it, however, especially if you like to read game novelizations and/or if you are a fan of old school pulp SSF and/or you are a Norton fan.
http://bookslifewine.com/r-quag-keep/
So, I'm sure it will come as no surprise to those who know me but I'm a huge Andre Norton fan. HUGE. I mainly delve into her Witch World series but I also have/read a good handful of her other works. One of the things I love about Andre Norton was that she dabbled in a lot of different genres, making her backlist a true treasure.
Quag Keep is one of those treasures I just mentioned. With the creation of Quag Keep, Andre Norton (yet again) changed the landscape of the written world about her. With Quag Keep, Andre Norton invented the idea of game novelization. In addition, Quag Keep is also the first novelization of the world of Dungeons & Dragons (D&D) - kicking off what would come to be a lucrative and long lasting trend.
One of the first things I noticed while reading Quag Keep was the major differences and similarities between Quag Keep (pub'd 1978) and the Witch World (pub'd 1963). The most prominent Witch World traits I noticed are the geas (an obligation or prohibition magically imposed on a person), the scent of corruption that those who are allied with the Dark (Chaos) emit and (strangely enough) the Sea of Dust. While Quag Keep has it's Sea of Dust, Norton's Witch World series has The Waste. The Waste is empty of most life but filled with relics. Norton seems to like deserts & always fills hers with ancient secrets waiting. . .
I did run into a handful of issues that I should have expected: I am not familiar with the gameplay of D&D (though I want to change that in the future!) so I was confused by the alignments. To make it more (and then less) complicated, there are three different editions of D&D with a shitton of alignments. Luckily for me, Norton's book was written during the first edition of D&D. So. There's Law, Neutral and Chaos. According to Wikipedia:
Originally the law/chaos axis was defined as the distinction between "the belief that everything should follow an order, and that obeying rules is the natural way of life", as opposed to "the belief that life is random, and that chance and luck rule the world". According to the early rulebook, lawful characters are driven to protect the interest of the group above the interest of the individual and would strive to be honest and to obey just and fair laws. Chaotic creatures and individuals embraced the individual above the group and viewed laws and honesty as unimportant. At that time, the rulebook specified that "chaotic behavior is usually the same as behavior that could be called 'evil'". Neutral creatures and characters believe in the importance of both groups and individuals, and felt that law and chaos are both important. They believe in maintaining the balance between law and chaos and were motivated by self-interest.
The third edition D&D rules define "law" and "chaos" as follows:
Law implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include closed-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.
Chaos implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them.
Someone who is neutral with respect to law and chaos has a normal respect for authority and feels neither a compulsion to follow rules nor a compulsion to rebel. They are honest but can be tempted into lying or deceiving others if it suits him/her.
- Wikipedia, Alignment (Dungeons & Dragons)
There are seven characters in our little D&D group. Each of them have been pulled from Earth to Greyhawk (the D&D universe) and they all are aligned either with Law or are neutral. There are four humans (swordsman, cleric, battlemaid and bard), one elf, one shifter (were-boar), and a Lizardman. The were-boar also has a miniature pet dragon named Afreeta. Quag Keep follows the swordsman, Milo Jagon (real name: Martin Jefferson) as the MC of the story.
There are a lot of game elements in Quag Keep - I'm sure I didn't find them all - and the elements were engrossing. I spent quite a bit of time trying to decipher which parts were pure Andre Norton vs which parts were game elements. Of course, as I've never played D&D, I had to wonder if the elements I noticed were elements that came from the tabletop editions of D&D and slowly found their way into computer/video games (which I do play).
One of the first game elements the reader is introduced to are the dice. Normally a [game] player rolls the dice to determine their possible moves. Norton repurposed the dice by turning them into bracelets. The bracelets are permanently attached to the character but the character has very little control of the dice - they spin when a "move" will be made but the characters cannot spin the die themselves. I have to admit that I was not a fan of the dice as bracelets and didn't find it to be exceptionally well done.
Other game elements I noticed were:
- The "questing party" is formed via a wizard's geas
- Magical jewelry (i.e. rings, bracelets, etc) are represented by the dice bracelets and Milo's two thumb rings
- light sources - in computer/video games if a player is in a dungeon there is limited to no light (reducing visibility). Quag Keep has the cleric, Deav Dyne, create a light source for the group.
All of the questing party members are aligned with Law with the exception of the Lizardman, Gulth, who is neutral. Gulth...had the most difficult trajectory in the storyline AND was treated the worse. The were-boar, Naile, and Milo seemed to fall in with each other from the very beginning and Naile had a major issue with Gulth. Naile's shield brother was killed in a war with some Lizardpeople and Naile has had a hatred for them ever since. Gulth barely speaks during Quag Keep - but he is also barely spoken to. He is treated with a lot of contempt - especially from Naile and especially in the beginning. Although the Lizardpeople are native to Greyhawk, Gulth and his people are considered alien.
"Lizardmen were considered neutral in the eternal struggles and skirmishes of Law and Chaos. On the other hand a neutral did not awake trust in any man. Their sense of loyalty seldom could be so firmly engaged that they would not prove traitors in some moment of danger."
-pg 32
Although Gulth saved Naile's life and is the only person who was capable to get the party to their final destination, Gulth is shown disappearing when the group is distracted by an attacked and no reason is given for this action. All in all, I felt Gulth was treated atrociously - thus making the ending of Quag Keep a bit unbelievable.
I see a lot game play in Quag Keep but I also see a lot of Witch World in it. The style of writing is a bit...dreamy in a way. It sorta reminds me of watching a movie while half-sleep. The read reminds me a LOT of Zarsthor's Bane (Witch World #11). Things -some times mundane and sometimes mystical - happen that are not fully explained. You just have to go with the flow and accept Norton's word for some things. I was interesting in reading book two - Return to Quag Keep - when I finished, though.
Final Word: I enjoyed this quite a bit but a lot of my group members feel it's...showing its age and found it to be a difficult read. I recommend it, however, especially if you like to read game novelizations and/or if you are a fan of old school pulp SSF and/or you are a Norton fan.
April 19, 2016
Well then. I kind of feel like this review is going to be hugely unfair, because I am absolutely not this book's target audience. To save time, I'll just say up front that I can't think of a single thing that I liked about it, so this review is going to be a nitpicky diatribe. I'm sorry in advance. Kinda.
I knew before I started that this was a Dungeons & Dragons tie-in type book, but that was all that I knew about it. A friend selected it for one of my groups to read, and so I read it. But I am not a gamer - at least not THIS type of gaming. I have never played D&D in my life. Aside from (probably) having both dungeons and dragons in the game, I couldn't have told you a single thing about it before reading this book.
So... I wasn't really impressed by this. As I said, I have never played the game, so that was already going to be a bit of a learning curve. But shit. There is literally ZERO explanation given for anything at all in this book.
We have a motley crew of people who are all suddenly plopped into the story with dice bracelets stuck on their wrists that they can't remove. They have strange, conflicting memories of being other people. Suddenly a wizard calls them all together, tells them his theory about what the bracelets are about and what they have to do about it (they're controlling them, and they have to Find The One Who Bound Them and Stop Him).
I think, had I any experience with D&D before this, that I might have gotten more out of this story. But as a standalone story, for me, it was just a convoluted, jumbled mess of a book. The writing style is terrible. Sentences are structured in such a way as to make them sound medieval or something, but it just ends up making every single sentence twice as long and much more confusing. A few rearranged words, some subject/verb agreement, a couple commas, and suddenly you have a readable sentence. Repeat, repeat, repeat... and then you have a readable book.
But no. It was left this way, the lazy way to try to add a medieval-style feel to the story. If it had just been the dialogue, it would have been better. But the narrative as well? It was way too much of a bad thing. I had to read some lines multiple times to understand what Norton was even trying to say - and there are definitely some passages I just had to shake my head at and move on. I still have no idea what she was going for.
Some were just bad sentences. "The heavy body of the berserker shifted on his stool. That seat might suddenly become not the most comfortable perch in the world." (What? That is quite possibly THE most awkward way to phrase that sentence that could be contrived.)
Or "His hand rose and he touched with a gentleness that seemed totally alien to his shaggy and brutal strength the head of the pseudo-dragon."
Two commas in that last sentence would keep my brain from melting. And those are both examples of the NARRATIVE. Not even dialogue.
Regarding the dialogue, it's more of the same, but somehow worse because it blends in so much to the narrative, so one must pay close attention to see where the speaking starts and stops, as well as WHO is actually speaking, because, with the exception of Gulth - the "alien" lizard man that is essentially ostracized from the main group simply because of his skin, every single character sounds exactly the same. Every. Single. One. The wereboar. The Amazon battlemaiden. The elf. The cleric. The swordman. The bard. All of them.
Then there were the similes. Sooooo many similes. And again, the style is so matchy-matchy between narrative and dialogue that if you're not careful, they just run together.
As an example, let's play a game. Label each one of the following sentences with whether it came from the narrative or dialogue.
1) "No one can lose fear, but it must be mastered and controlled as one controls a horse with bit and bridle."
2) "He flashed a quelling look at the girl, but she met that as she might a sword in the hands of a known enemy."
3) "The elf's nostrils expanded as if, like any animal of those woods his people knew better than Hystaspes might know his spells, he scented something."
4) "He seeks the mountains as a man dying of thirst would seek water."
Answers at the bottom of the review!
So... enough about the actual writing, let's talk a little about pacing - or the lack thereof. This book jumps around, seemingly at random, as a goat jumping from rock cliff to mountain ledge to hillside... (Sorry, I couldn't resist.) Seriously though, between the end of one chapter and the beginning of another, there is often a huge time and distance jump. On one page, they are on the road, journeying along and talking about whatever they talked about... and then suddenly they are where they were going and dealing with whatever they have to deal with when they get there. Then they leave, have a conversation, and then suddenly they are in the desert - excuse me, "Sea of Dust". It took me a few pages each time this happened to realize that we've jumped ahead, because I'm used to there being some sort of transition. I couldn't rely on the chapter headings to tell me, because just because a chapter is called "The Sea of Dust" it doesn't necessarily mean that we are actually present at that location yet. Likewise, not all of the chapter titles were locations - some were names, some were things, some were actions.
It's like we only need to be present for fights, magic use, and quest checkpoints. The rest is pointless, so it was left out. Time that could have been used for character development, backstory, developing the plot, etc, was just dumped in favor of having overly ornate pseudo-medieval language take up space, and we're just dropped into one action sequence after another.
There really isn't a plot to speak of. There's a quest, but it's not explained what they are actually supposed to do, or how, or why. When they are gathered together initially by the wizard, they are told that their bracelets may hold sway over their fates by the rolling of the dice on them, but that by concentration they may affect the outcome. So... the dice start spinning before they set out (they have no control over when they spin), and each of them concentrate, and then each of the characters wins money. Literally, bags of money drop at their feet.
Throughout the story, when the dice roll, they concentrate, and lo and behold, by the powers vested in the narrative, whatever they needed was provided for in this way.
My problem with this is that nobody knows the rules - or even what they are playing for. So how do they know what they are concentrating to achieve? I understand that at the beginning, it's logical to wish for gear for the journey. Fine. But the next time, when they're just on the road and the dice start to spin... it could be literally ANYTHING. Maybe a low result means you take less injury in a coming battle... or maybe a low result means that you have less power or strength in a coming battle. How do you know what result to concentrate on?
And before you say "Well DUH! They just concentrate on what they want!" It was said several times that the dice spun longer, and that they felt that they had caused it to happen. So is it the value shown that is the goal? Or a specific something that will be helpful for a situation that may occur but they are yet unaware of? Or the length of the spin...? How do they know what to do?
What if the dice begin to roll because there will be a fork in the road and they have to decide what path to take. There's no way to know THAT'S what the dice are being rolled for, because nobody can see the future (unless it's convenient that a character is able to do so - and then they can... Just saying.), so maybe they concentrate on the wrong thing...
But that never seemed to happen. If the dice rolled, someone concentrated, and whatever they needed, they got. So contrived. There was never any real feeling of danger to any of them. If someone is wounded, they have a healer. If someone gets lost, conveniently, they have a way to find them. If there's a battle, they win it. Even the lizardman, who needs water to survive, just magically survives long stretches of time in the Sea of Dust... and each time he's on the brink of death, they just conveniently have or find enough water to see him through - though grudgingly... at least for a good chunk of the book.
Speaking of which. OMG these characters are dumb. They know that their pack horses won't be able to go into the Sea of Dust - they'll just sink into the sand. Dust. Whatever. Even THEY will likely sink, so they fashion snowshoes. Dustshoes. Whatever. So they know that they will be limited to their supplies when entering this arid, unexplored, seriously-nobody-ever-returns desert, and they each take one water skin.
One.
Someone please tell me why they can think to make 12 dustshoes (Lizardman doesn't need a pair), but can't quite think ahead enough to make a travois to carry their gear? Noooo... instead, let's just leave all of the gear behind! It'll be FIIIIIIINE! We'll take all of our weapons, because, as if they are MasterCards, you shouldn't leave home without them! But food? Water? Extra water for the LIZARDMAN who usually lives in water and will suffer horribly in a desert but is coming along with the quest anyway because he has no choice even though his companions despise and hate him for no fucking reason... Maybe an extra water for him?
Nahhhh...
The stupidity... it burns.
Finally, I want to talk about "aliens". Any time anything looked even the slightest bit different from the main character himself, it was described as "alien". Lizardman = alien. Even though lizardmen are quite common (apparently) in this world. Gulth was treated horribly by his begrudging companions - mistrusted, spied on, rejected and shunned. If they weren't magically compelled, they would have happily left him for dead. All for nothing more than his skin. They are racist. And poor Gulth did not complain, he didn't even impose his presence on them. He kept quietly to himself and suffered in silence... yet this book tried several times to make him out to look suspicious just because he was different. Fuck that. Not cool. Toward the end of the book, they DO move past this mindset... but only because this ONE lizardman has proven himself to them. There's no way to know whether they would be any more accepting of another.
Anyway - in the end, they accomplish their goal. Though what the point of it all was, or what the purpose of the "Game" was, I have no idea.
At 5% in, they understood, or thought, that they were involved in a game and being manipulated. "I think, swordsman, that someone thinks to play a game with us. If this be so, he shall discover that he has chosen not tools but men[...]". (I realized they were the gamepieces about 2 paragraphs in, but whatever. Who's counting?)
At 96%, the characters get it. I mean, they SAID it right at the beginning, but apparently it came as a revelation to them 91% later.
"This is..." Her mental effort was visible to any watcher as she fought to find words. "This is--a game!"
Swift on the uptake, these characters.
This was my second Andre Norton book. The first one was... OK, but I was less than impressed. This one I pretty actively disliked by the end. So much awful writing, so little plot. I just don't think Andre Norton is for me.
*sigh*
Answers to the game here:
I knew before I started that this was a Dungeons & Dragons tie-in type book, but that was all that I knew about it. A friend selected it for one of my groups to read, and so I read it. But I am not a gamer - at least not THIS type of gaming. I have never played D&D in my life. Aside from (probably) having both dungeons and dragons in the game, I couldn't have told you a single thing about it before reading this book.
So... I wasn't really impressed by this. As I said, I have never played the game, so that was already going to be a bit of a learning curve. But shit. There is literally ZERO explanation given for anything at all in this book.
We have a motley crew of people who are all suddenly plopped into the story with dice bracelets stuck on their wrists that they can't remove. They have strange, conflicting memories of being other people. Suddenly a wizard calls them all together, tells them his theory about what the bracelets are about and what they have to do about it (they're controlling them, and they have to Find The One Who Bound Them and Stop Him).
I think, had I any experience with D&D before this, that I might have gotten more out of this story. But as a standalone story, for me, it was just a convoluted, jumbled mess of a book. The writing style is terrible. Sentences are structured in such a way as to make them sound medieval or something, but it just ends up making every single sentence twice as long and much more confusing. A few rearranged words, some subject/verb agreement, a couple commas, and suddenly you have a readable sentence. Repeat, repeat, repeat... and then you have a readable book.
But no. It was left this way, the lazy way to try to add a medieval-style feel to the story. If it had just been the dialogue, it would have been better. But the narrative as well? It was way too much of a bad thing. I had to read some lines multiple times to understand what Norton was even trying to say - and there are definitely some passages I just had to shake my head at and move on. I still have no idea what she was going for.
Some were just bad sentences. "The heavy body of the berserker shifted on his stool. That seat might suddenly become not the most comfortable perch in the world." (What? That is quite possibly THE most awkward way to phrase that sentence that could be contrived.)
Or "His hand rose and he touched with a gentleness that seemed totally alien to his shaggy and brutal strength the head of the pseudo-dragon."
Two commas in that last sentence would keep my brain from melting. And those are both examples of the NARRATIVE. Not even dialogue.
Regarding the dialogue, it's more of the same, but somehow worse because it blends in so much to the narrative, so one must pay close attention to see where the speaking starts and stops, as well as WHO is actually speaking, because, with the exception of Gulth - the "alien" lizard man that is essentially ostracized from the main group simply because of his skin, every single character sounds exactly the same. Every. Single. One. The wereboar. The Amazon battlemaiden. The elf. The cleric. The swordman. The bard. All of them.
Then there were the similes. Sooooo many similes. And again, the style is so matchy-matchy between narrative and dialogue that if you're not careful, they just run together.
As an example, let's play a game. Label each one of the following sentences with whether it came from the narrative or dialogue.
1) "No one can lose fear, but it must be mastered and controlled as one controls a horse with bit and bridle."
2) "He flashed a quelling look at the girl, but she met that as she might a sword in the hands of a known enemy."
3) "The elf's nostrils expanded as if, like any animal of those woods his people knew better than Hystaspes might know his spells, he scented something."
4) "He seeks the mountains as a man dying of thirst would seek water."
Answers at the bottom of the review!
So... enough about the actual writing, let's talk a little about pacing - or the lack thereof. This book jumps around, seemingly at random, as a goat jumping from rock cliff to mountain ledge to hillside... (Sorry, I couldn't resist.) Seriously though, between the end of one chapter and the beginning of another, there is often a huge time and distance jump. On one page, they are on the road, journeying along and talking about whatever they talked about... and then suddenly they are where they were going and dealing with whatever they have to deal with when they get there. Then they leave, have a conversation, and then suddenly they are in the desert - excuse me, "Sea of Dust". It took me a few pages each time this happened to realize that we've jumped ahead, because I'm used to there being some sort of transition. I couldn't rely on the chapter headings to tell me, because just because a chapter is called "The Sea of Dust" it doesn't necessarily mean that we are actually present at that location yet. Likewise, not all of the chapter titles were locations - some were names, some were things, some were actions.
It's like we only need to be present for fights, magic use, and quest checkpoints. The rest is pointless, so it was left out. Time that could have been used for character development, backstory, developing the plot, etc, was just dumped in favor of having overly ornate pseudo-medieval language take up space, and we're just dropped into one action sequence after another.
There really isn't a plot to speak of. There's a quest, but it's not explained what they are actually supposed to do, or how, or why. When they are gathered together initially by the wizard, they are told that their bracelets may hold sway over their fates by the rolling of the dice on them, but that by concentration they may affect the outcome. So... the dice start spinning before they set out (they have no control over when they spin), and each of them concentrate, and then each of the characters wins money. Literally, bags of money drop at their feet.
Throughout the story, when the dice roll, they concentrate, and lo and behold, by the powers vested in the narrative, whatever they needed was provided for in this way.
My problem with this is that nobody knows the rules - or even what they are playing for. So how do they know what they are concentrating to achieve? I understand that at the beginning, it's logical to wish for gear for the journey. Fine. But the next time, when they're just on the road and the dice start to spin... it could be literally ANYTHING. Maybe a low result means you take less injury in a coming battle... or maybe a low result means that you have less power or strength in a coming battle. How do you know what result to concentrate on?
And before you say "Well DUH! They just concentrate on what they want!" It was said several times that the dice spun longer, and that they felt that they had caused it to happen. So is it the value shown that is the goal? Or a specific something that will be helpful for a situation that may occur but they are yet unaware of? Or the length of the spin...? How do they know what to do?
What if the dice begin to roll because there will be a fork in the road and they have to decide what path to take. There's no way to know THAT'S what the dice are being rolled for, because nobody can see the future (unless it's convenient that a character is able to do so - and then they can... Just saying.), so maybe they concentrate on the wrong thing...
But that never seemed to happen. If the dice rolled, someone concentrated, and whatever they needed, they got. So contrived. There was never any real feeling of danger to any of them. If someone is wounded, they have a healer. If someone gets lost, conveniently, they have a way to find them. If there's a battle, they win it. Even the lizardman, who needs water to survive, just magically survives long stretches of time in the Sea of Dust... and each time he's on the brink of death, they just conveniently have or find enough water to see him through - though grudgingly... at least for a good chunk of the book.
Speaking of which. OMG these characters are dumb. They know that their pack horses won't be able to go into the Sea of Dust - they'll just sink into the sand. Dust. Whatever. Even THEY will likely sink, so they fashion snowshoes. Dustshoes. Whatever. So they know that they will be limited to their supplies when entering this arid, unexplored, seriously-nobody-ever-returns desert, and they each take one water skin.
One.
Someone please tell me why they can think to make 12 dustshoes (Lizardman doesn't need a pair), but can't quite think ahead enough to make a travois to carry their gear? Noooo... instead, let's just leave all of the gear behind! It'll be FIIIIIIINE! We'll take all of our weapons, because, as if they are MasterCards, you shouldn't leave home without them! But food? Water? Extra water for the LIZARDMAN who usually lives in water and will suffer horribly in a desert but is coming along with the quest anyway because he has no choice even though his companions despise and hate him for no fucking reason... Maybe an extra water for him?
Nahhhh...
The stupidity... it burns.
Finally, I want to talk about "aliens". Any time anything looked even the slightest bit different from the main character himself, it was described as "alien". Lizardman = alien. Even though lizardmen are quite common (apparently) in this world. Gulth was treated horribly by his begrudging companions - mistrusted, spied on, rejected and shunned. If they weren't magically compelled, they would have happily left him for dead. All for nothing more than his skin. They are racist. And poor Gulth did not complain, he didn't even impose his presence on them. He kept quietly to himself and suffered in silence... yet this book tried several times to make him out to look suspicious just because he was different. Fuck that. Not cool. Toward the end of the book, they DO move past this mindset... but only because this ONE lizardman has proven himself to them. There's no way to know whether they would be any more accepting of another.
Anyway - in the end, they accomplish their goal. Though what the point of it all was, or what the purpose of the "Game" was, I have no idea.
At 5% in, they understood, or thought, that they were involved in a game and being manipulated. "I think, swordsman, that someone thinks to play a game with us. If this be so, he shall discover that he has chosen not tools but men[...]". (I realized they were the gamepieces about 2 paragraphs in, but whatever. Who's counting?)
At 96%, the characters get it. I mean, they SAID it right at the beginning, but apparently it came as a revelation to them 91% later.
"This is..." Her mental effort was visible to any watcher as she fought to find words. "This is--a game!"
Swift on the uptake, these characters.
This was my second Andre Norton book. The first one was... OK, but I was less than impressed. This one I pretty actively disliked by the end. So much awful writing, so little plot. I just don't think Andre Norton is for me.
*sigh*
Answers to the game here:
June 27, 2017
Really a one star. An absolute unrewarding zero payoff mess of a novel. Elevated to a two star for...esoteric reasons.
-Props to Andre Norton for changing her name at an early age and publishing novels under the nom de plum of a man. Unfortunately, women had a lot of trouble breaking into sci fi (she wrote some pretty compelling sci fi for tweens since the 1950's) at the height of her career. Up until her death in the 90's, she was helping new authors break out in any way she could.
-There's some interesting themes about breaking the fourth wall here. It's probably too overdone in the present, but it made me think about "self aware" characters I've enjoyed in movies and video games.
-This book was conceived after playing a single session with Gary Gygax before role-playing was well known or Greyhawk was even a published game world. She didn't solely create the RPG/novel crossover but she was a link in the chain and that counts for something.
-So, it's not REALLY a Greyhawk book. But it is the forerunner, a test pattern. Also, Return to Quag Keep, written shortly before her death, is supposed to be a major improvement.
-Props to Andre Norton for changing her name at an early age and publishing novels under the nom de plum of a man. Unfortunately, women had a lot of trouble breaking into sci fi (she wrote some pretty compelling sci fi for tweens since the 1950's) at the height of her career. Up until her death in the 90's, she was helping new authors break out in any way she could.
-There's some interesting themes about breaking the fourth wall here. It's probably too overdone in the present, but it made me think about "self aware" characters I've enjoyed in movies and video games.
-This book was conceived after playing a single session with Gary Gygax before role-playing was well known or Greyhawk was even a published game world. She didn't solely create the RPG/novel crossover but she was a link in the chain and that counts for something.
-So, it's not REALLY a Greyhawk book. But it is the forerunner, a test pattern. Also, Return to Quag Keep, written shortly before her death, is supposed to be a major improvement.
April 16, 2009
This was given a 1 because -5 is not an option.
April 24, 2016
So, back in my much younger days I was part of a subculture that got into a game called Dungeons & Dragons. You might have heard of it. Well, back then I was aware of some novels that were based on the game and published by TSR, the company that put out the game books and all the other stuff. I read some of them, and I enjoyed the hell out of them.
So now I find that the very first novel written about the Greyhawk campaign world was actually penned by a Science Fiction Grand Master.
Yeah, I was all in. I jumped in, with plenty of 70s and 80s music in the background (RIP Prince), and was ready to go....
And then...after. I feel like I've been walking through the Sea of Dust because seasonal allergies are a bitch and my mind kept wandering to anything but this book.
Except...when I made myself read it. I was all 'huh?' much of the way. It started out kinda cool, with these mysterious dice built into bracelets that our heroes couldn't remove. And they were tied together to do some quest that they would never in a million years done otherwise, much less with each other. I mean, there's a Lizard Man in their party!
"You can't trust the scaled ones! I told you!!"
"What about your pet pseudo dragon?"
"It's not a pet! She's my friend!!"
"Yeah".
Well, I did play D&D as I said. It did seem that there was always one asshole in the bunch. It was like a rule. Berserking super tall and super strong killer fighter dude that can turn into a big ass boar at will (and back again) and has apet familiar that has about all the powers he doesn't, effectively giving him the ability to do anything...
...except fucking think.
So I gave Norton a pass on the superbarbarian-racist-wereboar-douchebag. Every party had one.
Just like we always had a...
...cleric. Check.
...thief. Check (Bards are trained in thievery. And music. How cool is that?)
...strong guy that isn't an asshat. Check.
...an elf. Because even back then we had race quotas.
Now, first rule of having and elf in the party is that you have to mention that he is an elf in every single sentence that he is involved in.
Clerics always say prayer-type shit and act all wise even when they have not a clue.
Strong guys don't have to do much besides kill shit and avoid slimy monster traps. Because there are always slimy monster traps.
But maybe I set my expectations too high. I mean, Grand Master is writing this, right?
So I expected coherent sentences. I expected the writing to be phenomenal. Well, okay if we give her another pass because this is adolescent gaming nerd tie-in shit, fine. But at least make the sentences correct.
Have you ever seen a run-on fragment sentence? It's possible...
And here's what I never saw in my gaming days. Describing every single fucking thing as "alien".
"What is that in our path?"
"Why, it looks strange. It looks..alien?"
"Yeah, you have the right of it. Alien. I mean, only an alien would look so...alien."
"Indeed. Alien."
No shit. Ripley didn't encounter this many aliens. I counted 35 instances of the word "alien" in the text of this relatively short book.
Alright, so I had to rant a little to justify my 1 star rating. There was some stuff to like, but Norton wrote all of that right out of the story. It must have been an alien thing to do.
Oh, and I see that there is a sequel this book that came out years later.
Yeah, that's how I'd feel if someone came at me with Return to Quag Keep.
So now I find that the very first novel written about the Greyhawk campaign world was actually penned by a Science Fiction Grand Master.
Yeah, I was all in. I jumped in, with plenty of 70s and 80s music in the background (RIP Prince), and was ready to go....
And then...after. I feel like I've been walking through the Sea of Dust because seasonal allergies are a bitch and my mind kept wandering to anything but this book.
Except...when I made myself read it. I was all 'huh?' much of the way. It started out kinda cool, with these mysterious dice built into bracelets that our heroes couldn't remove. And they were tied together to do some quest that they would never in a million years done otherwise, much less with each other. I mean, there's a Lizard Man in their party!
"You can't trust the scaled ones! I told you!!"
"What about your pet pseudo dragon?"
"It's not a pet! She's my friend!!"
"Yeah".
Well, I did play D&D as I said. It did seem that there was always one asshole in the bunch. It was like a rule. Berserking super tall and super strong killer fighter dude that can turn into a big ass boar at will (and back again) and has a
...except fucking think.
So I gave Norton a pass on the superbarbarian-racist-wereboar-douchebag. Every party had one.
Just like we always had a...
...cleric. Check.
...thief. Check (Bards are trained in thievery. And music. How cool is that?)
...strong guy that isn't an asshat. Check.
...an elf. Because even back then we had race quotas.
Now, first rule of having and elf in the party is that you have to mention that he is an elf in every single sentence that he is involved in.
Clerics always say prayer-type shit and act all wise even when they have not a clue.
Strong guys don't have to do much besides kill shit and avoid slimy monster traps. Because there are always slimy monster traps.
But maybe I set my expectations too high. I mean, Grand Master is writing this, right?
So I expected coherent sentences. I expected the writing to be phenomenal. Well, okay if we give her another pass because this is adolescent gaming nerd tie-in shit, fine. But at least make the sentences correct.
Have you ever seen a run-on fragment sentence? It's possible...
And here's what I never saw in my gaming days. Describing every single fucking thing as "alien".
"What is that in our path?"
"Why, it looks strange. It looks..alien?"
"Yeah, you have the right of it. Alien. I mean, only an alien would look so...alien."
"Indeed. Alien."
No shit. Ripley didn't encounter this many aliens. I counted 35 instances of the word "alien" in the text of this relatively short book.
Alright, so I had to rant a little to justify my 1 star rating. There was some stuff to like, but Norton wrote all of that right out of the story. It must have been an alien thing to do.
Oh, and I see that there is a sequel this book that came out years later.
Yeah, that's how I'd feel if someone came at me with Return to Quag Keep.
February 27, 2023
One of the first fiction novels written about a role-playing game, but this is no LitRPG. More inter-party conflict than external conflict - if your game is like this, find another. The ending is also rather sudden...
Andre Norton wrote this after participating in a session of D&D with Gary Gygax in 1976. His home setting of Greyhawk was not published until later, roughly the same time as the book - and the Greyhawk shown in this novel is nothing like that setting. It also has some strange features - a swamp in the middle of a desert? - but those *could* be explained as "magic" I suppose.
This party really is thrown together, and it makes sense that the characters didn't interact much. That part feels a lot like a game. The dual-world aspect was underutilized, not playing a part in the story until the very abrupt ending (and even then, pretty minimal).
For that matter, the story reminds me very much of the 2002 film The Gamers. My recommendation - see the film and skip the book. In the early 2000s, Andre Norton began to collaborate on a sequel with Jean Rabe. That novel was published after Norton's death and is apparently pretty bad.
Andre Norton wrote this after participating in a session of D&D with Gary Gygax in 1976. His home setting of Greyhawk was not published until later, roughly the same time as the book - and the Greyhawk shown in this novel is nothing like that setting. It also has some strange features - a swamp in the middle of a desert? - but those *could* be explained as "magic" I suppose.
This party really is thrown together, and it makes sense that the characters didn't interact much. That part feels a lot like a game. The dual-world aspect was underutilized, not playing a part in the story until the very abrupt ending (and even then, pretty minimal).
For that matter, the story reminds me very much of the 2002 film The Gamers. My recommendation - see the film and skip the book. In the early 2000s, Andre Norton began to collaborate on a sequel with Jean Rabe. That novel was published after Norton's death and is apparently pretty bad.
May 4, 2016
So... this thing...
Let me preface my review by saying I read this because it was picked for a group read by someone who loves Andre Norton, and I'd never read any Norton so I decided to give it a shot. I mean, I do like the occasional S&S romp, but I probably wouldn't have picked up this book if it hadn't been under group-circumstances.
Let's just say that, based on this, I have not become a fan.
It started well. The juxtaposition of the gamers and the world, the way the two were linked, was interesting. It was an idea which I think could've been done really well, but which I felt was kind of squandered in this book, since, aside from the set-up and the resolution, the only real bearing it had was the bracelet of dice all the characters wore (and couldn't get off).
Speaking of the characters - none of them felt particularly developed, and I didn't care overly for Milo. I especially didn't like that we were so married to Milo's perspective since a lot of stuff happened to or around other people. I'm not generally a fan of a million perspectives, but I felt this book definitely could've benefited from some perspective jumping. (It also couldn't been a way to actually develop some of the other characters who were clearly only there for their abilities to be useful at some point.)
As for the plot - well, it's based on D&D and the plot was a them heading towards a goal, finding out around the 65% point that they were going to have to go to a place the reader knew they would have to go to around page 5, and lots of random encounters. (In short - D&D is much more fun to play than to read about other people playing, which is what reading this was like.)
Honestly, I only pushed through because of the aforementioned group-read thing, and I wanted to be able to say I gave it a decent shot.
But I posted this gif in the group, because this is pretty much how I felt after the umpteenth random encounter following a bunch of people I cared diddly squat about:
And that ending, man.
Let me preface my review by saying I read this because it was picked for a group read by someone who loves Andre Norton, and I'd never read any Norton so I decided to give it a shot. I mean, I do like the occasional S&S romp, but I probably wouldn't have picked up this book if it hadn't been under group-circumstances.
Let's just say that, based on this, I have not become a fan.
It started well. The juxtaposition of the gamers and the world, the way the two were linked, was interesting. It was an idea which I think could've been done really well, but which I felt was kind of squandered in this book, since, aside from the set-up and the resolution, the only real bearing it had was the bracelet of dice all the characters wore (and couldn't get off).
Speaking of the characters - none of them felt particularly developed, and I didn't care overly for Milo. I especially didn't like that we were so married to Milo's perspective since a lot of stuff happened to or around other people. I'm not generally a fan of a million perspectives, but I felt this book definitely could've benefited from some perspective jumping. (It also couldn't been a way to actually develop some of the other characters who were clearly only there for their abilities to be useful at some point.)
As for the plot - well, it's based on D&D and the plot was a them heading towards a goal, finding out around the 65% point that they were going to have to go to a place the reader knew they would have to go to around page 5, and lots of random encounters. (In short - D&D is much more fun to play than to read about other people playing, which is what reading this was like.)
Honestly, I only pushed through because of the aforementioned group-read thing, and I wanted to be able to say I gave it a decent shot.
But I posted this gif in the group, because this is pretty much how I felt after the umpteenth random encounter following a bunch of people I cared diddly squat about:
And that ending, man.
October 3, 2017
I have mixed feelings about this honorary member of Appendix N . . .
So, if you follow my reviews, you know that I am somewhat obsessed with Appendix N - the list of fantasy, sci-fi, and weird fiction that Gary Gygax noted as inspirational to the creation of D&D. One of the authors on that list is Andre Norton, an author whose works of sci-fi and fantasy I loved as a child, a corpus of work going back decades before D&D and after as well. But Andre Norton, uniquely among the Appendix N authors, met Gary Gygax, played in a D&D game early in its history (recollections vary, but my research indicates 1976. It might have been as late as 1978). She requested and received permission from Gygax to write a book set in his World of Greyhawk (or some early version thereof). The result was Quag Keep, a strange novel about characters in Greyhawk who are actually, somehow, gamers from our world trapped in the game world. They bear (cursed?) magical bracelets with spinning representations of dice on them, apparently representing the polyhedral dice used in the game of D&D (which, while fairly commonplace today for gamers, were still somewhat unusual in the mid 70s). The story of their adventure is somewhat generic fantasy and sadly a little bland, and while the writing is good, the plot is somewhat unsatisfactory. It would probably normally rate 3 stars from me instead of 4, but I give it an extra star for its significance in research into the early beginnings of the Hobby. I do note that it is not a true Appendix N book, though one can twist logic into pretzels trying to figure it out - Andre Norton helps inspire D&D (Appendix N), is inspired to write a book based on D&D, and so this book is by an Appendix N author who was inspired by the game that she helped inspire!
So, if you follow my reviews, you know that I am somewhat obsessed with Appendix N - the list of fantasy, sci-fi, and weird fiction that Gary Gygax noted as inspirational to the creation of D&D. One of the authors on that list is Andre Norton, an author whose works of sci-fi and fantasy I loved as a child, a corpus of work going back decades before D&D and after as well. But Andre Norton, uniquely among the Appendix N authors, met Gary Gygax, played in a D&D game early in its history (recollections vary, but my research indicates 1976. It might have been as late as 1978). She requested and received permission from Gygax to write a book set in his World of Greyhawk (or some early version thereof). The result was Quag Keep, a strange novel about characters in Greyhawk who are actually, somehow, gamers from our world trapped in the game world. They bear (cursed?) magical bracelets with spinning representations of dice on them, apparently representing the polyhedral dice used in the game of D&D (which, while fairly commonplace today for gamers, were still somewhat unusual in the mid 70s). The story of their adventure is somewhat generic fantasy and sadly a little bland, and while the writing is good, the plot is somewhat unsatisfactory. It would probably normally rate 3 stars from me instead of 4, but I give it an extra star for its significance in research into the early beginnings of the Hobby. I do note that it is not a true Appendix N book, though one can twist logic into pretzels trying to figure it out - Andre Norton helps inspire D&D (Appendix N), is inspired to write a book based on D&D, and so this book is by an Appendix N author who was inspired by the game that she helped inspire!
April 14, 2016
The very, very, very first D&D tie in. An actual D&D tie in -- not Advanced D&D. (Which is why it talks of Law and Chaos. The nine-fold square does not apply here.)
But it opens with a gaming group getting a shipment of figures to use in play. One player, fascinated, takes up an exquisite one of a swordsman. And then -- our point of view shifts to that of a swordsman in Greyhawk.
In the proverbial tavern.
And another character, a berserker/wereboar, is there. Both of them wearing bracelets set with dice. They speak to each other -- and a messenger comes to them, asking them to come to his master. An elf joins them on the street, and they meet more at the wizard's. Because the wizard has noticed this, and decided to fix it by the obvious means of setting one problem at the other: the player characters' characters are now bound by spell to stop this.
It involve the undead, an illusionist, a gold dragon giving advice via a magical ring, animated shadows, and more. I dont' think it's one of her better works, but it has its interests.
But it opens with a gaming group getting a shipment of figures to use in play. One player, fascinated, takes up an exquisite one of a swordsman. And then -- our point of view shifts to that of a swordsman in Greyhawk.
In the proverbial tavern.
And another character, a berserker/wereboar, is there. Both of them wearing bracelets set with dice. They speak to each other -- and a messenger comes to them, asking them to come to his master. An elf joins them on the street, and they meet more at the wizard's. Because the wizard has noticed this, and decided to fix it by the obvious means of setting one problem at the other: the player characters' characters are now bound by spell to stop this.
It involve the undead, an illusionist, a gold dragon giving advice via a magical ring, animated shadows, and more. I dont' think it's one of her better works, but it has its interests.
September 14, 2019
This 1978 novel, the first ever written for a role-playing game, may still be one of the worst four decades later. The esteemed SF/F author Andre Norton was introduced to the first edition of Dungeons & Dragons by co-creator Gary Gygax. After a play session, she wrote a novel from her limited understanding of the rules about characters who don't know their lives and world are a game. That sounds intriguing but the novel isn't. It devotes less than 20 pages at the beginning and end to exploring the premise. Instead, it's a plodding tale of an adventuring party dragged across the World of Greyhawk by a geas with bracelets holding RPG dice fixed to their wrists. The characters in the group were hard to tell apart, aside from a berserker were-boar and stoic lizard man named Gulth. The punishment he silently endured when forced to travel through a harsh, dry clime, far from swamps, was evocative and memorable. I read this in the '80s and didn't recall any of it. I'll likely forget it again.
October 9, 2023
The very first isekai, this book has quite the historical value for any gamer and anime enthusiast, but that's pretty much all the good it has; it's got potential and interesting concepts, but everything is done terribly
The book is really short, but most of it is nonsensical name dumps that will only make sense to those very few who participated in Gygax's personal campaign.. yes, the book is essentially just a transcript of Andre's campaign notes, and not an actual novel. The "story" is very simplistic and pretty much a "go from point A to point B" with no twist or anything. Once in a while they get an encounter, then they move on to the next area with absolutely zero transition in space or time (i.e. they'll struggle to make it someplace and reach it just barely alive, then the very next page in the next chapter, they're in a completely different biome with a fresh pack of supplies), rinse and repeat until the end that doesn't even have a climax.. it's not even the whole campaign, just a session or two
This is hot garbage
The book is really short, but most of it is nonsensical name dumps that will only make sense to those very few who participated in Gygax's personal campaign.. yes, the book is essentially just a transcript of Andre's campaign notes, and not an actual novel. The "story" is very simplistic and pretty much a "go from point A to point B" with no twist or anything. Once in a while they get an encounter, then they move on to the next area with absolutely zero transition in space or time (i.e. they'll struggle to make it someplace and reach it just barely alive, then the very next page in the next chapter, they're in a completely different biome with a fresh pack of supplies), rinse and repeat until the end that doesn't even have a climax.. it's not even the whole campaign, just a session or two
This is hot garbage
June 25, 2019
For all that this is a genre defining novel, rife with historical precedent, I'm afraid to say it, well, isn't a very good story told particularly well. The characters are cardboard, the action merely okay and the dialog on par with an episode of Thundarr the Barbarian.
Probably a must read if you are interested in the roots of LitRPG or GameLit, but man, just not a whole lot of fun.
I'm afraid to say the Guardians of the Flame series, beginning with The Sleeping Dragon does what this book does, but does it far better. At least until that series turned into a shameless cash grab somewhere around the fifth book.
Probably a must read if you are interested in the roots of LitRPG or GameLit, but man, just not a whole lot of fun.
I'm afraid to say the Guardians of the Flame series, beginning with The Sleeping Dragon does what this book does, but does it far better. At least until that series turned into a shameless cash grab somewhere around the fifth book.
August 21, 2023
That was bad. Really bad. 1978, first D&D tie-in novel, woman who had to write under a man's name, so the context is keeping it out of 1-star (also it's bad but not offensive, so hey better than Piers Anthony). It reminds me, though, of how my fine public library of the 1980s had one bookshelf for its entire SF/Fantasy collection, and there really wasn't an option to get books from other libraries. When you wonder why Shannara and Belgariad have fans my age, think of that single bookshelf. In that era, this would have been an awesome additional book! (At least, to 10yo me.)
January 13, 2018
I am a huge Andre Norton fan, but this was horrible. The Anglo-Saxon writing style she chose to use was very difficult to read. Continuously had to go back and read what I had just read, and still some things made no sense. No plot, no characterization, just an endless journey with no point. If it had been written by another author, I would not have finished it. As I am a Norton fan, however, I forced myself. Frustrating.
May 6, 2021
As the first Dungeons & Dragons novel ever published, I spent the $2 asked for when I found this in a bookstore. The story is different from other DnD novels, as it’s an interesting take on portal fantasy, into the world of Greyhawk. While some things were interesting, and the writing good, the story is very dull. I don’t think this book is bad, and I want to read more Norton, but your everyday fantasy fan should probably just skip on this one.
April 12, 2016
um, fun? obviously a 1970s-80s D&D story-role-game-playing adventure tale. If I'd read it at that time, probably would have been lots of fun. Now? meh. Enjoyable moments, clever ideas, some good battle, decent characters (one I really liked), but too tongue-in-cheek for me, and I did not like the anti-climatic un-clever ending. Overall, an okay diversion; now on to bigger and better.
April 21, 2018
I enjoyed the world building (very evocative!) and all of the game tie-ins in this novel. But the plot was awfully linear, didn’t build from chapter to chapter, and the climax was kind of lame. Why did all of those previously-met antagonists also go on that long journey just to fight at a later time? And the parallel world DM thing was a gimmick that didn’t work for me. Fun read, mediocre ending.
October 4, 2011
Guag Keep by Andre Norton was another book that I read but didn't care about. The premises were good. A boy from our world is transported into the game. Who of us didn't thought of that? Unfortunally it didn't work out that good.
May 20, 2019
This is the first example of characters being transported into a game fantasy world. It is a decent read, with decent characterization. The ending is kind of blah though. Other books such as Joel Rosenbergs' Guardians of the Flame series is much better.
This entire review has been hidden because of spoilers.
January 25, 2024
The story begins with the swordsman, Milo Jagon, awaking in a tavern. No, wait, it actually begins with a guy named Martin drooling over the newest mini his DM has brought. Filled with awe he grabs the miniature swordsman only to find himself in a strange bar filled with berserkers, cutthroats, and druids.
That’s right. The very first Dungeons and Dragons novel can now be classified as an isekai story. I personally lay all the sins of “Sword Art Online” at the feet of “Quag Keep.” The adventure party is a bunch of players stuck in the bodies of their characters through magical means. Of course, the players soon forget themselves because they also share these new bodies with the minds of the adventurers. It’s complicated.
What’s worse is that this doesn’t really matter. For the most part Milo is just Milo. You can easily cut out all of the “real world” intrusions and the story would remain unchanged. They would still be bound together by a geas and they still would be required to stop evil. It really felt like Norton tacked on the isekai plot to show that she actually played Dungeons and Dragons.
Also, part of this plot line is that every character has a bracelet of dice on their wrists that spin in certain situations (“Roll for plot advancement!”). That’s right, this DnD novel has the actual dice rolls on page. And I have to say as a DM, some of these rolls don’t make sense. It’s as if the DM just got bored and realized no one has played with their shiny math rocks in a while.
So, what about the characters? Well, the adventuring party has six players that fit all the stereotypes. You have Milo, the player who is convinced they’re the main character. Naile Fangtooth the berserker were-boar, who is the Leroy Jenkins of the party. Deav Dyne the cleric, also known as “The Team Mom.” Wymarc the bard, who is the guy at the table that keeps spacing out and forgetting to play. Ingrgre the elf ranger who is just better than everyone else. Yevele the Warrior Princess who was shamefully underused. Finally, Gulth the lizard man, who feels like a munchkin player who took the disabilities “everyone is racist towards you” and “needs to stay moist” so that he could get the buff “the strong and silent type.”
Of course, I’m using character in the loosest sense of the word. None of them have much in the way of personal plot or growth. The only one I actually remember well is Naile because were-boar. I cannot emphasize that enough: were-boar! Plus, he kind of had a story arc in becoming less (but not not) racist against Gulth the lizard man.
I am willing to admit that I may be a little too harsh here. Andre Norton is giving birth to an entire genre of fantasy novel here. Sure the plot can best be described as “and then this happened” and at the end of the chapter you can practically here the DM say “Well, that’s all I have for tonight.” Yet, Quag Keep crawled so that Dragons of Autumn Twilight could run.
So, should you read Quag Keep? No, but also maybe? Read it if you are either an Andre Norton fan or are interested in the history of Dungeons and Dragons. But if you want to read an exciting high adventure fantasy with a compelling story and interesting characters? Find that somewhere else.
That’s right. The very first Dungeons and Dragons novel can now be classified as an isekai story. I personally lay all the sins of “Sword Art Online” at the feet of “Quag Keep.” The adventure party is a bunch of players stuck in the bodies of their characters through magical means. Of course, the players soon forget themselves because they also share these new bodies with the minds of the adventurers. It’s complicated.
What’s worse is that this doesn’t really matter. For the most part Milo is just Milo. You can easily cut out all of the “real world” intrusions and the story would remain unchanged. They would still be bound together by a geas and they still would be required to stop evil. It really felt like Norton tacked on the isekai plot to show that she actually played Dungeons and Dragons.
Also, part of this plot line is that every character has a bracelet of dice on their wrists that spin in certain situations (“Roll for plot advancement!”). That’s right, this DnD novel has the actual dice rolls on page. And I have to say as a DM, some of these rolls don’t make sense. It’s as if the DM just got bored and realized no one has played with their shiny math rocks in a while.
So, what about the characters? Well, the adventuring party has six players that fit all the stereotypes. You have Milo, the player who is convinced they’re the main character. Naile Fangtooth the berserker were-boar, who is the Leroy Jenkins of the party. Deav Dyne the cleric, also known as “The Team Mom.” Wymarc the bard, who is the guy at the table that keeps spacing out and forgetting to play. Ingrgre the elf ranger who is just better than everyone else. Yevele the Warrior Princess who was shamefully underused. Finally, Gulth the lizard man, who feels like a munchkin player who took the disabilities “everyone is racist towards you” and “needs to stay moist” so that he could get the buff “the strong and silent type.”
Of course, I’m using character in the loosest sense of the word. None of them have much in the way of personal plot or growth. The only one I actually remember well is Naile because were-boar. I cannot emphasize that enough: were-boar! Plus, he kind of had a story arc in becoming less (but not not) racist against Gulth the lizard man.
I am willing to admit that I may be a little too harsh here. Andre Norton is giving birth to an entire genre of fantasy novel here. Sure the plot can best be described as “and then this happened” and at the end of the chapter you can practically here the DM say “Well, that’s all I have for tonight.” Yet, Quag Keep crawled so that Dragons of Autumn Twilight could run.
So, should you read Quag Keep? No, but also maybe? Read it if you are either an Andre Norton fan or are interested in the history of Dungeons and Dragons. But if you want to read an exciting high adventure fantasy with a compelling story and interesting characters? Find that somewhere else.
April 25, 2022
Possible Spoilers- you have been warned....Possible SPOILERS...you have been warned.....
Quag Keep! The 1st D&D inspired novel, i think it is. Written in 1978, i read it for the first time that year. I had started playing D&D that same year as was excited about this novel....a novel written about a game! fantastic.
My younger self was not impressed with the book at all from what i remember. It was not the D&D i played! oh no....Berserker were-boar what! (actually we did have a were-bear character at one point, but not a berserker)..a lizard man, a bard...incredible...no magic user..a amazon! such crazy stuff and my younger self could not seperate a good story from the game...my immaturity rearing its ugly head yet again!)
Fast forward 40 years (oh how fast it seems too!) and my older (maybe slightly mature self) can easily separate the game from the novel, and enjoy the novel for the fantasy adventure it is.
Is it the best Andre Norton novel ever, no i don't think so, it is slow at points and more interaction between the PCs would be nice, but as it is from the point of view of a single character, the lack of interaction is understood, but still it is very entertaining, which is what i want from books i read. i am already getting ready to read the sequel.
I loved this story after reading it again, 7 adventurers so different but all linked. Does it really feel like D&D, then, with 1st Ed rules, no, not really if you were looking for a direct transposition (which my younger self was), but after another 4 editions or so, yes..it is..it is an adventure with different characters...on an epic adventure, which could easily be from a=someones campaign notes, not the best way to write a novel probably, but when Norton is the writer, sure i'll buy it : )
If you played any RPGs ever, have not read this and can separate the game from the story, read this book, you will enjoy it
Quag Keep! The 1st D&D inspired novel, i think it is. Written in 1978, i read it for the first time that year. I had started playing D&D that same year as was excited about this novel....a novel written about a game! fantastic.
My younger self was not impressed with the book at all from what i remember. It was not the D&D i played! oh no....Berserker were-boar what! (actually we did have a were-bear character at one point, but not a berserker)..a lizard man, a bard...incredible...no magic user..a amazon! such crazy stuff and my younger self could not seperate a good story from the game...my immaturity rearing its ugly head yet again!)
Fast forward 40 years (oh how fast it seems too!) and my older (maybe slightly mature self) can easily separate the game from the novel, and enjoy the novel for the fantasy adventure it is.
Is it the best Andre Norton novel ever, no i don't think so, it is slow at points and more interaction between the PCs would be nice, but as it is from the point of view of a single character, the lack of interaction is understood, but still it is very entertaining, which is what i want from books i read. i am already getting ready to read the sequel.
I loved this story after reading it again, 7 adventurers so different but all linked. Does it really feel like D&D, then, with 1st Ed rules, no, not really if you were looking for a direct transposition (which my younger self was), but after another 4 editions or so, yes..it is..it is an adventure with different characters...on an epic adventure, which could easily be from a=someones campaign notes, not the best way to write a novel probably, but when Norton is the writer, sure i'll buy it : )
If you played any RPGs ever, have not read this and can separate the game from the story, read this book, you will enjoy it
May 29, 2017
Sadly abandoned. I found this interesting but just not compelling, and although I probably could have forced myself to the end I realised that I had no more to glean from it after the 40% mark.
There's a good idea here, especially if one considers that this is the first Dungeons and Dragons based fiction ever written (apart from a short called "The Gnome's Cache" by Gygax which appeared in Dragon magazine - a direly written piece of serial pulp that owed as much to the Victorian pulps as it did Robert E Howard). Norton or Gygax couldn't have known which direction to take this in and they couldn't have foreseen the worldbuilding epic extravaganzas of Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms (the latter unread by me, as yet). D&D was a new game with interesting ideas about placing yourself in the story, so it's pretty logical that D&D fiction would be about precisely that - people getting sucked into a story.
Initially I thought it was going to work. I really liked the blending of personalities and that the characters had vague memories of their original "real-world" players, that they were instructed by a "geas"(whatever the hell that is") and at the whim of these weird bracelets with die in them. What I didn't like was Norton's po-faced seriousness. Nobody seems to have told her that D&D is supposed to be fun, and the more she heaps on the archaic language the more she succumbs to its tiresome side as long unpronounceable names and wearisome detail confound the narrative she's trying to tell. I've suffered this kind of prose before, but for Norton I couldn't penetrate the story she wanted to tell and it soon becomes clear that she finds her snazzy literary conceit to be compensation enough.
There are people playing a WARGAME. (it's not a wargame). And. they.have.to.go.and.find.a ...... Well, it turns out they don't know what they are looking for and as the journey progresses they don't seem to know what to say to one another either and it all comes out in wearisome bogged down dialogue that takes an eternity to read. There are glimpses of trying to give the characters personality. Sometimes it feels that Norton has *nearly* got it, but then it falls flat. The trouble is, if you try and tell a fantasy tale with a sparse narrative it has to be really good or all you end up doing is mirroring the slog of the hero's journey with none of the payoff. One feels that Norton feels she's being clever by reworking the pulps with a modern spin thematically and an archaic linguistic spin. One feels that had she injected a little life into this narrative it might just has worked.
Either way it was a marketing dead-end. Dungeons and Dragons literature did indeed become it's own monster which for a long time eclipsed the game itself, but it wasn't via a faux-literary pulp but a romantic - epic popular 80s style, courtesy of Weis & Hickman, which sat much neater with an 80s mass audience. Gygax had a proper stab at fiction too which apparently hearkens back to Howard but I've yet to get around to it.
There's a good idea here, especially if one considers that this is the first Dungeons and Dragons based fiction ever written (apart from a short called "The Gnome's Cache" by Gygax which appeared in Dragon magazine - a direly written piece of serial pulp that owed as much to the Victorian pulps as it did Robert E Howard). Norton or Gygax couldn't have known which direction to take this in and they couldn't have foreseen the worldbuilding epic extravaganzas of Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms (the latter unread by me, as yet). D&D was a new game with interesting ideas about placing yourself in the story, so it's pretty logical that D&D fiction would be about precisely that - people getting sucked into a story.
Initially I thought it was going to work. I really liked the blending of personalities and that the characters had vague memories of their original "real-world" players, that they were instructed by a "geas"(whatever the hell that is") and at the whim of these weird bracelets with die in them. What I didn't like was Norton's po-faced seriousness. Nobody seems to have told her that D&D is supposed to be fun, and the more she heaps on the archaic language the more she succumbs to its tiresome side as long unpronounceable names and wearisome detail confound the narrative she's trying to tell. I've suffered this kind of prose before, but for Norton I couldn't penetrate the story she wanted to tell and it soon becomes clear that she finds her snazzy literary conceit to be compensation enough.
There are people playing a WARGAME. (it's not a wargame). And. they.have.to.go.and.find.a ...... Well, it turns out they don't know what they are looking for and as the journey progresses they don't seem to know what to say to one another either and it all comes out in wearisome bogged down dialogue that takes an eternity to read. There are glimpses of trying to give the characters personality. Sometimes it feels that Norton has *nearly* got it, but then it falls flat. The trouble is, if you try and tell a fantasy tale with a sparse narrative it has to be really good or all you end up doing is mirroring the slog of the hero's journey with none of the payoff. One feels that Norton feels she's being clever by reworking the pulps with a modern spin thematically and an archaic linguistic spin. One feels that had she injected a little life into this narrative it might just has worked.
Either way it was a marketing dead-end. Dungeons and Dragons literature did indeed become it's own monster which for a long time eclipsed the game itself, but it wasn't via a faux-literary pulp but a romantic - epic popular 80s style, courtesy of Weis & Hickman, which sat much neater with an 80s mass audience. Gygax had a proper stab at fiction too which apparently hearkens back to Howard but I've yet to get around to it.
October 31, 2021
A bit of a historical curio this one. This novel is amongst the very first to take inspiration from the then emerging game of D&D, back in the day when it was still played around a table amongst friends without computers or anything like that. In 1978, when it was published, this novel would have been absolutely on-point. It’s undoubtedly a seminal work.
Whether it is a good representation of gaming, I’ll let others decide. I am not a gamer, so I have only a basic understanding and none of the subtlety of an aficionado.
The notion of the players being transported into the game and playing for world-threatening stakes was not new or exclusive to this new hobby, but the gaming rules allowed for some meta considerations of where the players end and where their characters begin. So this is a thoughtful beginning of the genre, and frankly better than much of the stat-heavy LitRPG being churned out these days.
However as a fantasy novel, effectively a shop window for the new gaming craze, this is rather disappointing. The prose is stilted and purple. The characters are already stereotypical and refractory to any development. The plot is simplistic and yet it is sometimes difficult to follow what’s going on and why. But more than anything else, the pace is slow, the action is sparse, and it’s boring. Other Norton novels are notable for their frantic pace, absent here. A quarter of the way in this one, the questors have done no more than assemble, be told their mission by a mentor, and bought some horses. All very passive and meek, accepting of their fate. There’s plenty of foreboding, but that gets old.
Okay, the pace is stately like that of the Lord of the Rings, but the slow pace of that novel permitted huge amounts of world building, of which there is very little in this novel - because in gaming, the world building is secondary; the primary purpose of a turns-based entertainment is to deliver *action*, thrills, winning battles on the way to winning a campaign. That’s the whole point. And this book fails to deliver the world building of fantasy on the one hand or the activity that is central to a game on another. It falls between two stools.
The action does increase in the second half, but only to provide a succession of battles, won by our heroes without any true jeopardy, cost to them, new learning, or character development. These are not story worthy events, just things that happen. Rolls of the dice indeed.
Nope, this is empty stuff.
This kindle unlimited edition suffers from some editing glitches too, errors of transcription from print. Digital editions are great to access out of print and otherwise hard to find works, but there are often quality issues.
Hence two stars.
Whether it is a good representation of gaming, I’ll let others decide. I am not a gamer, so I have only a basic understanding and none of the subtlety of an aficionado.
The notion of the players being transported into the game and playing for world-threatening stakes was not new or exclusive to this new hobby, but the gaming rules allowed for some meta considerations of where the players end and where their characters begin. So this is a thoughtful beginning of the genre, and frankly better than much of the stat-heavy LitRPG being churned out these days.
However as a fantasy novel, effectively a shop window for the new gaming craze, this is rather disappointing. The prose is stilted and purple. The characters are already stereotypical and refractory to any development. The plot is simplistic and yet it is sometimes difficult to follow what’s going on and why. But more than anything else, the pace is slow, the action is sparse, and it’s boring. Other Norton novels are notable for their frantic pace, absent here. A quarter of the way in this one, the questors have done no more than assemble, be told their mission by a mentor, and bought some horses. All very passive and meek, accepting of their fate. There’s plenty of foreboding, but that gets old.
Okay, the pace is stately like that of the Lord of the Rings, but the slow pace of that novel permitted huge amounts of world building, of which there is very little in this novel - because in gaming, the world building is secondary; the primary purpose of a turns-based entertainment is to deliver *action*, thrills, winning battles on the way to winning a campaign. That’s the whole point. And this book fails to deliver the world building of fantasy on the one hand or the activity that is central to a game on another. It falls between two stools.
The action does increase in the second half, but only to provide a succession of battles, won by our heroes without any true jeopardy, cost to them, new learning, or character development. These are not story worthy events, just things that happen. Rolls of the dice indeed.
Nope, this is empty stuff.
This kindle unlimited edition suffers from some editing glitches too, errors of transcription from print. Digital editions are great to access out of print and otherwise hard to find works, but there are often quality issues.
Hence two stars.
Read
May 26, 2010The relationship to D&D is explicit (it's on the dedication page). Less obvious is the part Donald A Wollheim played in getting books published in affordable editions, introducing new authors, etc. It's not an accident that this is a DAW book.
It's an indication of Norton's prejudices that she set up a crude dichotomy ('law=good, chaos=evil'), and that neutrals are marginalized and often despised. I played only rarely, but I remember clearly that there were characters whose alignments were chaotic good or lawful evil. And as a person who felt ethically compelled to adopt strict neutrality, I don't much appreciate being defined as mercenary therefor.
Norton's personal distaste for quagmires (so extreme that dusty deserts are often described as less hostile) is revealed by her description of the land as 'poisoned'. It's not a criticism of a filter to describe it as dirty. And the characters are so stubbornly biased against marshes and their denizens that they are unrepentantly discriminatory against the 'lizardman', pretty much to the end. He doesn't comment on this, but you have to wonder what he DID think about such bigoted allies.
On a technical note, btw, I'm not sure if Gulth was a reptile (it's not clear from context), but if so, it's not a lot of use wrapping him in cloaks to keep him warm (unless they're electric cloaks). One of the reasons blankets work for homeotherms is that they keep the excess heat produced at such expense by the homeotherms' internal furnaces from escaping. Non-homeotherms usually require an external heat source to deal with cold. Or they just become torpid, or migrate or hibernate or suchlike.
Several conventions are routinely adopted. I've mentioned the absurdity of the idea of 'killing machines' before, and I don't regard them as more plausible if magically generated. But another convention I may not have mentioned before is the tendency to describe (often heavily) vegetated areas as lifeless unless they contain animal life; as if plants are not also alive. There are a few arguments against this latter convention (notably by the elf), but since the elf is not the viewpoint character, the convention tends to predominate.
It's an indication of Norton's prejudices that she set up a crude dichotomy ('law=good, chaos=evil'), and that neutrals are marginalized and often despised. I played only rarely, but I remember clearly that there were characters whose alignments were chaotic good or lawful evil. And as a person who felt ethically compelled to adopt strict neutrality, I don't much appreciate being defined as mercenary therefor.
Norton's personal distaste for quagmires (so extreme that dusty deserts are often described as less hostile) is revealed by her description of the land as 'poisoned'. It's not a criticism of a filter to describe it as dirty. And the characters are so stubbornly biased against marshes and their denizens that they are unrepentantly discriminatory against the 'lizardman', pretty much to the end. He doesn't comment on this, but you have to wonder what he DID think about such bigoted allies.
On a technical note, btw, I'm not sure if Gulth was a reptile (it's not clear from context), but if so, it's not a lot of use wrapping him in cloaks to keep him warm (unless they're electric cloaks). One of the reasons blankets work for homeotherms is that they keep the excess heat produced at such expense by the homeotherms' internal furnaces from escaping. Non-homeotherms usually require an external heat source to deal with cold. Or they just become torpid, or migrate or hibernate or suchlike.
Several conventions are routinely adopted. I've mentioned the absurdity of the idea of 'killing machines' before, and I don't regard them as more plausible if magically generated. But another convention I may not have mentioned before is the tendency to describe (often heavily) vegetated areas as lifeless unless they contain animal life; as if plants are not also alive. There are a few arguments against this latter convention (notably by the elf), but since the elf is not the viewpoint character, the convention tends to predominate.
October 17, 2021
Generally considered the first ever D&D novel, this is a long time before the first DragonLance novel!
Sometimes D&D books have the accusation levelled at them that you can hear the dice rolling in the background. In this one that’s not the case. Instead you can literally hear the dice rolling in the foreground because all the main characters have forearm bracelets with dice that occasionally spin whenever there’s something crucial happening.
The plot is so so. Real gamers in our world drawn into the fantasy world yadda yadda.
The main thing is it’s just kind of boring. It felt very plodding. Even when there were fights it was boring. I guess I just didn’t like the writing style. From looking at the other reviews, it appears I'm not alone! The descriptions didn’t evoke very strong pictures in my mind.
Of course, the book's main draw is as a portal into the then unknown world of Greyhawk. We get to visit the Sea of Dust and hear of other places that would later become known to us. There’s one interesting reference to the Temple of the Frog from Blackmoor, funnily enough because the player in the real world (in the novel) has played the scenario.
Ultimately the worst crime is that the story is frustratingly pointless.
I don't regret reading it but the 2 stars is a warning to anyone else wanting to go on this drab quest.
And don't get too excited about the prospect of some sort of castle adventure - the damn Quag Keep doesn't appear till about the last 10 pages! (No, that's not a spoiler, it's just making you aware of the false advertising in the title.)
Sometimes D&D books have the accusation levelled at them that you can hear the dice rolling in the background. In this one that’s not the case. Instead you can literally hear the dice rolling in the foreground because all the main characters have forearm bracelets with dice that occasionally spin whenever there’s something crucial happening.
The plot is so so. Real gamers in our world drawn into the fantasy world yadda yadda.
The main thing is it’s just kind of boring. It felt very plodding. Even when there were fights it was boring. I guess I just didn’t like the writing style. From looking at the other reviews, it appears I'm not alone! The descriptions didn’t evoke very strong pictures in my mind.
Of course, the book's main draw is as a portal into the then unknown world of Greyhawk. We get to visit the Sea of Dust and hear of other places that would later become known to us. There’s one interesting reference to the Temple of the Frog from Blackmoor, funnily enough because the player in the real world (in the novel) has played the scenario.
Ultimately the worst crime is that the story is frustratingly pointless.
I don't regret reading it but the 2 stars is a warning to anyone else wanting to go on this drab quest.
And don't get too excited about the prospect of some sort of castle adventure - the damn Quag Keep doesn't appear till about the last 10 pages! (No, that's not a spoiler, it's just making you aware of the false advertising in the title.)
April 21, 2018
I was disappointed by this book. I'm usually a big fan of Norton's stuff, but this one didn't measure up. It's a pleasant quest/picaresque tale of people... well, not transported to the Greyhawk world of Gary Gygax, but kinda merged with folks from that world. If you're expecting characters who struggle to balance their fantasy character personality with their "real world" personalities, this isn't the book for you; the real world personas are shelved early on, and the way the characters overcome a later challenge is by actively suppressing the barely-there real-world personalities and memories. At the end of the book, you're left wondering what happened to the players who basically rode around in the heads of the heroes but who didn't really have much of an impact on the story.
The book doesn't spell out much for you, just alluding to the villain and his plans, and how those plans are thwarted without really going into details or explaining anything. In fact, this book may have been too subtle for me. When I caught it being clever, it was really clever; no big deal is made about it, but it does elegantly skewer gamer stereotypes in a number of particulars. For instance, the only character with any sort of backstory to speak of is, of course the lone female.
Perhaps the book is full of neat, subtle, and clever little touches like that, but if so, they were far too subtle for me. Even for fans of Norton and early D&D, it's not a read I'd recommend.
The book doesn't spell out much for you, just alluding to the villain and his plans, and how those plans are thwarted without really going into details or explaining anything. In fact, this book may have been too subtle for me. When I caught it being clever, it was really clever; no big deal is made about it, but it does elegantly skewer gamer stereotypes in a number of particulars. For instance, the only character with any sort of backstory to speak of is, of course the lone female.
Perhaps the book is full of neat, subtle, and clever little touches like that, but if so, they were far too subtle for me. Even for fans of Norton and early D&D, it's not a read I'd recommend.
December 12, 2015
I was introduced to the world of "light novels" thanks to LMS .. most of light novels are re-recycled cliches with an OP MC + a heroine or a bunch of them + an evil person or group whom I end up sympathising with as I gradually discover that the MC is the more cruel IMHO + a bunch of random characters that serve as stepping stones to the MC..
There is rarely an interesting plot & most characters are at most 2D (usually they r 1D) .. but the author tries to smooth things over by writing a good captivating premise (usually includes the suffering & abuse of a child & his journey towards greatness) and even though the theme is repeated over & over again, still I find myself reading one of those light novels .. I mean at least the author was honest and made it into a LIGHT novel .. so to begin with u don't have big expectations..u just want to pass time and perhaps get an insight in the lifestyle of other civilizations and how they usually interact and what their role model hero is like
.
.
As u may have noticed, this was so disappointing & uninteresting that I find myself digressing ~,~ + Still, I 'll give Norton the benefit of doubt & try the first book in the saga, Who knows .. maybe if I dig enough I 'll find a gem!!
There is rarely an interesting plot & most characters are at most 2D (usually they r 1D) .. but the author tries to smooth things over by writing a good captivating premise (usually includes the suffering & abuse of a child & his journey towards greatness) and even though the theme is repeated over & over again, still I find myself reading one of those light novels .. I mean at least the author was honest and made it into a LIGHT novel .. so to begin with u don't have big expectations..u just want to pass time and perhaps get an insight in the lifestyle of other civilizations and how they usually interact and what their role model hero is like
.
.
As u may have noticed, this was so disappointing & uninteresting that I find myself digressing ~,~ + Still, I 'll give Norton the benefit of doubt & try the first book in the saga, Who knows .. maybe if I dig enough I 'll find a gem!!
December 13, 2012
It's not clear if Norton knew what to do with this material. There's nodding references to staple Greyhawk stuff, even name-dropping the Temple of the Frog at one point, but aside from the Sea of Dust it all comes off as flavorless. And then there's the Dungeons-and-Dragons-as-game themes that crop up and thrash around: a Law versus Chaos conflicts that on one hand is tangental to the main quest and on the other is better-developed than the protagonists' main concern, references to numerical "rank" in terms of ability level, and so forth.
Finally, there's the entire framing device of the protagonists being tied to or embodiments of our-world game players by means of dice bracelets. All because of some Encroaching Otherplanary Evil whose goals are ill-defined, whose motivation is undeveloped, and whose relationship to the protagonists is nonexistent. It's clumsy and unsubtle and required an actual wizard to call together the party of mismatched ne'er-do-wells and explain the entire thing (including "how those bracelet things work"). And the first two strangers do, literally, meet in a tavern.
Finally, there's the entire framing device of the protagonists being tied to or embodiments of our-world game players by means of dice bracelets. All because of some Encroaching Otherplanary Evil whose goals are ill-defined, whose motivation is undeveloped, and whose relationship to the protagonists is nonexistent. It's clumsy and unsubtle and required an actual wizard to call together the party of mismatched ne'er-do-wells and explain the entire thing (including "how those bracelet things work"). And the first two strangers do, literally, meet in a tavern.
March 31, 2015
Ugh, Quag Keep is pretty painful to read. It might have value as a historical oddity--the first novel set in Greyhawk (If you don't know what that is, don't bother reading it at all).
There's not much of a plot, no real character development (or likeable characters), it's contrived to the point of ridiculousness, and at great pains to somehow tie actual fantasy role playing into the plot of a novel, something that definitely shouldn't be attempted. To spell that out: the characters in the book sort of know they are being "played" by someone else. To make this clear, the novel includes a character with dice on his arm. That sometimes roll. I kid you not, and it's as ridiculous as it sounds.
If you want to read the game summary of a mid- to high-level AD&D adventure with lots of silly, Hollywood style mock-Medieval dialogue and things that happen "just because," go for it, but it's pretty bad.
Supposedly she (Andre Norton is in reality Alice Norton) actually played D&D with Gary Gygax. If true, that makes this all the more disappointing, because I would have thought that would be pretty cool. Maybe not. Norton's actually a good writer, too (see Star Man's Son).
There's not much of a plot, no real character development (or likeable characters), it's contrived to the point of ridiculousness, and at great pains to somehow tie actual fantasy role playing into the plot of a novel, something that definitely shouldn't be attempted. To spell that out: the characters in the book sort of know they are being "played" by someone else. To make this clear, the novel includes a character with dice on his arm. That sometimes roll. I kid you not, and it's as ridiculous as it sounds.
If you want to read the game summary of a mid- to high-level AD&D adventure with lots of silly, Hollywood style mock-Medieval dialogue and things that happen "just because," go for it, but it's pretty bad.
Supposedly she (Andre Norton is in reality Alice Norton) actually played D&D with Gary Gygax. If true, that makes this all the more disappointing, because I would have thought that would be pretty cool. Maybe not. Norton's actually a good writer, too (see Star Man's Son).
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