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O, These Men, These Men
The measurement of manners--as devotees of Anthony Trollope are well aware--can offer readers an amusing course in the vanities and verities of the human heart. Among modern novelists who have taken up the instruments of sophisticated observation, Angela Thrikell stands out as a droll yet sympathetic chronicler of town and country. Her intuitive grasp of the comedy of social relations among the cultivated gentry of 20th-century Britain, and the elegantly entertaining manner in which she translates her intuitions to the page, has won her a legion of dedicated and well-deserved admirers. O, These Men, These Men! first published in 1935 and long out of print, is one of Angela Thirkell's few non-Barsetshire novels. Believed to be something of a roman-a-clef , it deftly chronicles the sorrows and renewals, the heartbreak and graduation of happiness in the life of a refined young woman who has weathered the end of an ill-starred marriage.
210 pages, Paperback
First published January 1, 1935
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About the author
Angela Thirkell
58 books258 followers Angela Margaret Mackail was born on January 30, 1890 at 27 Young Street, Kensington Square, London. Her grandfather was Sir Edward Burne-Jones the pre-Raphaelite painter and partner in the design firm of Morris and Company for whom he designed many stained glass windows - seven of which are in St Margaret's Church in Rottingdean, West Sussex. Her grandmother was Georgiana Macdonald, one of a precocious family which included among others, Stanley Baldwin, the Prime Minister, and Rudyard Kipling. Angela's brother, Denis Mackail, was also a prolific and successful novelist. Angela's mother, Margaret Burne-Jones, married John Mackail - an administrator at the Ministry of Education and Professor of Poetry at Oxford University.
Angela married James Campbell McInnes in 1911. James was a professional Baritone and performed at concert halls throughout the UK. In 1912 their first son Graham was born and in 1914 a second son, Colin. A daughter was born in 1917 at the same time her marriage was breaking up. In November 1917 a divorce was granted and Angela and the children went to live with her parents in Pembroke Gardens in London. The child, Mary, died the next year.
Angela then met and married George Lancelot Thirkell in 1918 and in 1920 they traveled on a troop ship to George's hometown in Australia. Their adventures on the "Friedricksruh" are recounted in her Trooper to the Southern Cross published in 1934. In 1921, in Melbourne Australia, her youngest son Lancelot George was born. Angela left Australia in 1929 with 8 year old Lance and never returned. Although living with her parents in London she badly needed to earn a living so she set forth on the difficult road of the professional writer. Her first book, Three Houses, a memoir of her happy childhood was published in 1931 and was an immediate success. The first of her novels set in Trollope's mythical county of Barsetshire was Demon in the House, followed by 28 others, one each year.
Angela also wrote a book of children's stories entitled The Grateful Sparrow using Ludwig Richter's illustrations; a biography of Harriette Wilson, The Fortunes of Harriette; an historical novel, Coronation Summer, an account of the events in London during Queen Victoria's Coronation in 1838; and three semi-autobiographical novels, Ankle Deep and Oh, These Men, These Men and Trooper to the Southern Cross. When Angela died on the 29th of January 1961 she left unfinished the last of her books, Three Score and Ten which was completed by her friend, Caroline LeJeune. Angela is buried in Rottingdean alongside her daughter Mary and her Burne-Jones grandparents.
Angela married James Campbell McInnes in 1911. James was a professional Baritone and performed at concert halls throughout the UK. In 1912 their first son Graham was born and in 1914 a second son, Colin. A daughter was born in 1917 at the same time her marriage was breaking up. In November 1917 a divorce was granted and Angela and the children went to live with her parents in Pembroke Gardens in London. The child, Mary, died the next year.
Angela then met and married George Lancelot Thirkell in 1918 and in 1920 they traveled on a troop ship to George's hometown in Australia. Their adventures on the "Friedricksruh" are recounted in her Trooper to the Southern Cross published in 1934. In 1921, in Melbourne Australia, her youngest son Lancelot George was born. Angela left Australia in 1929 with 8 year old Lance and never returned. Although living with her parents in London she badly needed to earn a living so she set forth on the difficult road of the professional writer. Her first book, Three Houses, a memoir of her happy childhood was published in 1931 and was an immediate success. The first of her novels set in Trollope's mythical county of Barsetshire was Demon in the House, followed by 28 others, one each year.
Angela also wrote a book of children's stories entitled The Grateful Sparrow using Ludwig Richter's illustrations; a biography of Harriette Wilson, The Fortunes of Harriette; an historical novel, Coronation Summer, an account of the events in London during Queen Victoria's Coronation in 1838; and three semi-autobiographical novels, Ankle Deep and Oh, These Men, These Men and Trooper to the Southern Cross. When Angela died on the 29th of January 1961 she left unfinished the last of her books, Three Score and Ten which was completed by her friend, Caroline LeJeune. Angela is buried in Rottingdean alongside her daughter Mary and her Burne-Jones grandparents.
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January 22, 2015
Another early effort by Angela Thirkell. Not quite as bad as Ankle Deep but almost. The heroine was pretty frustrating. You wanted to enter the novel and shake her and say, What are you thinking!!! Either that or give her drugs.
February 9, 2022
He loves her but she loves him and he loves someone else! In Angela Thirkell's "O, These Men, These Men!" you can add the women to that sentiment. I thoroughly enjoyed this story and loved that Barsetshire's Mrs. Morland was mentioned though only briefly. I sure wish her whole Barsetshire series was available on Kindle. Another question is can you really control another person. Caroline was by some expected to control her husband's drinking and ways, if she was only stronger, she could control him. There comes a point no matter how strong or determined you are you cannot change a person's behavior unless they want to change themselves. I love reading older books because you get a glimpse into those times, this story was published in 1935. Russia and Germany to some outsiders, seems like things are so much better, to the naive, two brothers in this book have opposing views, on looks to the Reds and the other to Hitler's Third Reich. So it makes you wonder how many in England looked at these two countries, with that sentiment, that life is better there. I kept thinking that those characters will be fighting several years later in the second World War. Thirkell always brings a little humor to her work which is delightful.
Story in short- Caroline seeks the shelter of her in-laws home when their son abuses and then abandons their daughter-in-law.
"Caroline after three years of marriage was thankful that her husband’s people saw so little of her home life. When his father and mother came to town, James was as charming to them as ever, finding considerable relief in misusing his wife more than usual when they had gone. To his young brothers, he was something of a hero, and the only one of his family who guessed what he was becoming was his sister Anna, whose further visits he did not therefore encourage. Among Caroline’s many griefs, not the least, was the forcible estrangement of her cousins Hugh and Francis. In his drink-clouded mind, James had conceived an unreasonable and intolerable jealousy of them both, finally forbidding Caroline to ask them to the house or see them at all. The cousins were anxious and unhappy at losing sight of Caroline, but as any attempt at a meeting only meant that she would be exposed to James’ senseless rage, they stayed away."
❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌spoiler alert ❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌
I had thought Anna would finally win Francis' love but when the final chapters were approaching, it was still likely and then the surprise that William wanted to marry her. She was smart not mention Francis to anyone, she finally saw that William was the one for her, he chose her and she would not be second choice. Francis was too much in love with Caroline. It took Caroline a long time to finally appreciate and love Francis. I think when Hugh couldn't understand her not giving James another chance, she saw that he could not understand and love the way she needed. He was too coarse whereas Francis is kind. I am not sure how Julia and Hugh will be after they are married, but I am sure they will be fairly happy. I thought. Caroline and William would be together because she was helpful with his work and walked at the same speed. I loved that Mr. Danvers was known to his children as the Intellect. Caroline was an annoying character, though I felt sorry about her troubles. She seemed to think more of herself whereas Anna was truly a giving person, and my favorite.
"Neither Hugh nor Francis knew whether James’ father and mother suspected his downward ways, and they came to the conclusion that interference would be useless and all they could do for Caroline was to wait, hoping for matters to mend. Once or twice, Francis was able as a lawyer to extricate James from some piece of folly in which his own weakness had involved him, hating at the same time to send the wreck that James was becoming back to the uncomplaining Caroline."
"Outside the library door, he stood in thought. No one could have devised a more repugnant or difficult task than to tell a father and a mother that their eldest son was a complete failure, without decency, courage, or kindness. He could not even guess how they would take it. He must be prepared for disbelief, tears, the resentment which is felt against the bearer of bad news, possibly a refusal to shelter Caroline. In Anna, he knew he had an ally, but her father and mother were unknown quantities in this horrible game of family affairs."
"distress was so apparent that Mrs. Danvers asked him point blank if he was in some kind of difficulty. “I am,” said Francis, “and the worst of it is that it affects you too. It’s about James.” “Is he dead?” asked Mrs. Danvers, suddenly looking old. Francis would have liked to say, “No, worse,” but he realized that to a parent nothing can be worse than a child’s death. Death is the only final and irrevocable disgrace. All others may be repaired or forgotten."
“Drink, sir, and pretty well everything that goes with it,” said Francis, desperately anxious to get the worst out. “Caroline rang up this morning and asked us to go to her. Hugh was away so I went. Did you know that James had lost his newspaper job some time ago because he was always drunk? He was badly in debt too. They have been living on her money, which isn’t much. Sometimes she hasn’t known where he was for days
at a time. I have found him once or twice and brought him back to her.” He hesitated.
“This letter came from James just as we were leaving,” said Francis, taking it out of his pocket. “I opened it. It wasn’t the moment to consider whether one was being honorable. He says he doesn’t propose to come back and she can do what she likes.”
“How is Caroline?” she said. “I don’t know. Your father is sending for Dr. Herbert. Anna – James is your brother and was once a friend of Hugh’s and mine, but I could kill him with the greatest pleasure.”
“Did you know about the women?” asked Francis. “Of course I did. James used to come in and boast about them in his cups, which were practically continuous in the last few months. I couldn’t knock my cousin’s husband down in the subeditor’s room, or I’d have done it. That sort of thing doesn’t look well for the paper. What has he done now? Cat burgling?” “I think he has killed Caroline. I left her at Beechwood. She was in bed and almost unconscious. All she could say was, Don’t be angry with James. It would give me a great deal of pleasure to wring James’ neck, very slowly. Angry! There isn’t a word for the kind of rage it makes me feel.”
"Anna said nothing, but kissed him good night. She remained alone for a little longer by the dying fire, thinking of Caroline and Francis, and then, more satisfactorily, of Francis and herself."
Caroline had marrried James Danvers. Hugh Mannering and Francis Lester are Caroline's cousins that have a fondness for her and after James basically throws them out. The cousins see that they must stay away for it was worse for Caroline. James' sister Anna has also been told to stay away because she has seen his treatment of his wife. Caroline calls Francis to come to her home and he brings her to her in- laws home. She is very ill and brought up to rest and the doctor called. Francis has to tell the parents about their son's behavior, drinking, losing his job, abusing his wife which caused her to lose her unborn child & his many girlfriends. He has left his wife for another woman and he doesn't care what his wife does. The Danvers are upset, especially Mr. Danvers because he should have spoken up but he was cowardly. They look to support their daughter-in-law but Mrs. Danvers seems to think her son is not so bad but her husband tells he it is so. Anna was told by James that he would change his ways so she didn't tell her parents. Francis tells Hugh about Caroline and shows him the letter that James wrote. In the letter he mentioned that the cousins could have his wife but Francis is not good looking so he would lose over Hugh. Francis is upset about this because he sees he loves her and when he left Caroline, she was sending her love to Hugh. Anna has thought Francis very kind and thinks about her an him. Anna tells her younger brothers about James but they seem to think their sister is over reacting. Wilfred and George work at their father's business in London.
Story in short- Caroline seeks the shelter of her in-laws home when their son abuses and then abandons their daughter-in-law.
"Caroline after three years of marriage was thankful that her husband’s people saw so little of her home life. When his father and mother came to town, James was as charming to them as ever, finding considerable relief in misusing his wife more than usual when they had gone. To his young brothers, he was something of a hero, and the only one of his family who guessed what he was becoming was his sister Anna, whose further visits he did not therefore encourage. Among Caroline’s many griefs, not the least, was the forcible estrangement of her cousins Hugh and Francis. In his drink-clouded mind, James had conceived an unreasonable and intolerable jealousy of them both, finally forbidding Caroline to ask them to the house or see them at all. The cousins were anxious and unhappy at losing sight of Caroline, but as any attempt at a meeting only meant that she would be exposed to James’ senseless rage, they stayed away."
❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌spoiler alert ❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌❌
I had thought Anna would finally win Francis' love but when the final chapters were approaching, it was still likely and then the surprise that William wanted to marry her. She was smart not mention Francis to anyone, she finally saw that William was the one for her, he chose her and she would not be second choice. Francis was too much in love with Caroline. It took Caroline a long time to finally appreciate and love Francis. I think when Hugh couldn't understand her not giving James another chance, she saw that he could not understand and love the way she needed. He was too coarse whereas Francis is kind. I am not sure how Julia and Hugh will be after they are married, but I am sure they will be fairly happy. I thought. Caroline and William would be together because she was helpful with his work and walked at the same speed. I loved that Mr. Danvers was known to his children as the Intellect. Caroline was an annoying character, though I felt sorry about her troubles. She seemed to think more of herself whereas Anna was truly a giving person, and my favorite.
"Neither Hugh nor Francis knew whether James’ father and mother suspected his downward ways, and they came to the conclusion that interference would be useless and all they could do for Caroline was to wait, hoping for matters to mend. Once or twice, Francis was able as a lawyer to extricate James from some piece of folly in which his own weakness had involved him, hating at the same time to send the wreck that James was becoming back to the uncomplaining Caroline."
"Outside the library door, he stood in thought. No one could have devised a more repugnant or difficult task than to tell a father and a mother that their eldest son was a complete failure, without decency, courage, or kindness. He could not even guess how they would take it. He must be prepared for disbelief, tears, the resentment which is felt against the bearer of bad news, possibly a refusal to shelter Caroline. In Anna, he knew he had an ally, but her father and mother were unknown quantities in this horrible game of family affairs."
"distress was so apparent that Mrs. Danvers asked him point blank if he was in some kind of difficulty. “I am,” said Francis, “and the worst of it is that it affects you too. It’s about James.” “Is he dead?” asked Mrs. Danvers, suddenly looking old. Francis would have liked to say, “No, worse,” but he realized that to a parent nothing can be worse than a child’s death. Death is the only final and irrevocable disgrace. All others may be repaired or forgotten."
“Drink, sir, and pretty well everything that goes with it,” said Francis, desperately anxious to get the worst out. “Caroline rang up this morning and asked us to go to her. Hugh was away so I went. Did you know that James had lost his newspaper job some time ago because he was always drunk? He was badly in debt too. They have been living on her money, which isn’t much. Sometimes she hasn’t known where he was for days
at a time. I have found him once or twice and brought him back to her.” He hesitated.
“This letter came from James just as we were leaving,” said Francis, taking it out of his pocket. “I opened it. It wasn’t the moment to consider whether one was being honorable. He says he doesn’t propose to come back and she can do what she likes.”
“How is Caroline?” she said. “I don’t know. Your father is sending for Dr. Herbert. Anna – James is your brother and was once a friend of Hugh’s and mine, but I could kill him with the greatest pleasure.”
“Did you know about the women?” asked Francis. “Of course I did. James used to come in and boast about them in his cups, which were practically continuous in the last few months. I couldn’t knock my cousin’s husband down in the subeditor’s room, or I’d have done it. That sort of thing doesn’t look well for the paper. What has he done now? Cat burgling?” “I think he has killed Caroline. I left her at Beechwood. She was in bed and almost unconscious. All she could say was, Don’t be angry with James. It would give me a great deal of pleasure to wring James’ neck, very slowly. Angry! There isn’t a word for the kind of rage it makes me feel.”
"Anna said nothing, but kissed him good night. She remained alone for a little longer by the dying fire, thinking of Caroline and Francis, and then, more satisfactorily, of Francis and herself."
Caroline had marrried James Danvers. Hugh Mannering and Francis Lester are Caroline's cousins that have a fondness for her and after James basically throws them out. The cousins see that they must stay away for it was worse for Caroline. James' sister Anna has also been told to stay away because she has seen his treatment of his wife. Caroline calls Francis to come to her home and he brings her to her in- laws home. She is very ill and brought up to rest and the doctor called. Francis has to tell the parents about their son's behavior, drinking, losing his job, abusing his wife which caused her to lose her unborn child & his many girlfriends. He has left his wife for another woman and he doesn't care what his wife does. The Danvers are upset, especially Mr. Danvers because he should have spoken up but he was cowardly. They look to support their daughter-in-law but Mrs. Danvers seems to think her son is not so bad but her husband tells he it is so. Anna was told by James that he would change his ways so she didn't tell her parents. Francis tells Hugh about Caroline and shows him the letter that James wrote. In the letter he mentioned that the cousins could have his wife but Francis is not good looking so he would lose over Hugh. Francis is upset about this because he sees he loves her and when he left Caroline, she was sending her love to Hugh. Anna has thought Francis very kind and thinks about her an him. Anna tells her younger brothers about James but they seem to think their sister is over reacting. Wilfred and George work at their father's business in London.
February 9, 2023
I fell in love with Angela Thirkell's Barsetshire series and have read the available copies up to Love Among the Ruins. By available I mean easily available, generally on Kindle. I read The Demon in the House (Barchester #2), and Private Enterprise (Barchester #16) on The Internet Archive. That is a bit of a chore so when I found this on Kindle I took it.
This was published in 1935 between Wild Strawberries and August Folly of which both were vastly better. I suspect that Ms Thirkell needed to write this book. I have not found any evidence that one, or both, of her two husbands were drunken abusers, but the only real passion in this novel comes in "poor" Caroline's brief allusions to how hard her life has been.
"There are natures that can be generous and forgiving under slights, neglect, privation, but if once terrified, physically or mentally, the wound to their inner self, the degradation of the immortal being, is such that they will be cold and implacable to the offender forever. They will never seek revenge, nor speak bitter words, but their lives will run frozen over black depths where past cruelties lie. Such, for right or wrong, were Caroline’s feelings for James, if ever he came to her mind..."
There is some slight reference to her love for James at the beginning of their relationship but this turns quickly to fear as he loses his way entirely,
Neither Hugh nor Francis [Caroline's cousins] knew whether James’ father and mother suspected his downward ways, and they came to the conclusion that interference would be useless and all they could do for Caroline was to wait, hoping for matters to mend.
"Maybe it'll fix itself". I have often tried this method with similar results. When James finally leaves England with another woman Caroline divorces him and begins to recover. Curiously she goes to live with James' family and curiouser still they welcome her.
"Where the man was possessed by the beast, divorce was simply a human being striking out wildly and savagely in self defence. As this passed, the anger engendered by fear might die, might give way to compassion, but the old fear could never be killed..."
As a love story this is not believable. We have three young women who all fall madly in love. We know only the hearts of two of them; Caroline is in love with her cousin Hugh, Anna, James' sister, in in love with Caroline's other cousin, Francis. Julia keeps her passion to herself. Meanwhile Francs is in love with Caroline and Anna with Francis. Anna's younger brother, Wilfred, is in love with Julia, as is Hugh, and surprisingly, as it turns out, she with him.
"Anna knew quite well. She could have hit Francis with all her strength, or she could have said: “Caroline loves Hugh. Take me for next best.” But these were not things to say or do..."
When Francis proposes to her Caroline turns him down in no uncertain terms and admits she is in love with another. When she learns of Julia and Hugh's engagement she immediately turns off all desire for him, apparently, and tells Francis that there is no one she loves. Julia's father, an old retired soldier, falls for Anna and – apparently – she for him. Very curious, I mean he's a nice man but at 49 he is well more than twice her age.
"'Francis is thirty-three and Hugh thirty-one,” said Caroline. “Hugh is five years older than I am'..."
So that leaves Francis and Caroline free and so she falls in love with him, apparently. This is all rather confusing to a person, like myself, who understands romance only through Christmas movies.
The good humour and affection of the Barsetshire novels is mostly missing, as is the pointed satire at the quirks of the English. Instead we have two young men, George and Wilfred, one admires Hitler and the other Soviet Russia. All taken together I found it pretty dull stuff.
A few quotes:
"Mr. Danvers’ [James' father] attacks of world pessimism were rather dreaded by his family, but they gave him such intense pleasure that no one grudged him his occasional fits of depression."
James' younger brothers leanings:
"George gave up a very dull evening party at which he had hoped to meet a Communist, and Wilfred ran a pencil through an entry in his diary, which had read, “West Kensington Blackshirt Rally, 7:45?"
"Wilfred remarked that Einstein was a poisonous little Jew. George said that say what he liked, the film world would be absolutely nowhere without the money and the artistic sense of the Jewish race..."
George confuses Einstein and Eisenstein. Curious times when a man acknowledged as a genius could be so regarded.
"The low sun threw such a glow on Caroline’s face that she looked younger than Colonel Beaton had ever seen her. “I have nothing to do,” she said in half humorous self-depreciation. “I can’t very well do the housekeeping when it isn’t my house, and I hate the poor, and I haven’t any gifts. I was rather good at having a husband and a home, but I’m out of work now...”
There is some spillover. The Danvers enjoy dinner at "the Deanery" where they meet, among others, Mrs Crawley and the Grantleys from Trollope and from Ms Thirkell's later series:
"I don’t agree with you about Mrs. Morland,” said Mr. Danvers. “I found her very agreeable and we should have had a really interesting talk after dinner if it hadn’t been for that intolerable bore Knox.” “Do you mean George Knox, Father?” said Anna. “The one that writes biographies? I adore his books.”
Naivete:
Before going to bed, he gave himself a little pleasant self-torture by saying aloud, “To think of Julia in Hugh’s arms,” though his boy’s modest mind gave no particular interpretation to the words, which were in the nature of a sacrifice to the Proprieties from a rejected lover..."
At the cinema in 1934:
Each was affected in his or her way by the romantic atmosphere of film-land, the wailing and throbbing of canned music, and the occasional sounds of the electric organ when its deep toned voice faltered..."
Caroline:
"She recognized it as one of the inevitable follies of her sex that she had loved without return and fed her love upon her own imagination..."
"...Caroline, only saved by the breeding that teaches one never to be conspicuous in public, did not faint..."
Three absurdities:
Mr Danvers reflects:
"...A wordless prayer for mercy for James and himself came from his heart. Then he knew that his spirit had left him and was following the likeness of James as he used to be. Thoughts and questions were left far behind. A silence fell about him, a still clear light filled his eyes. The vision of his lost son passed from him, but peace filled his heart..."
Francis proposing to Caroline:
"Would half-past eight tomorrow morning suit you?” “Yes,” said Caroline, lifting her face to her lover..."
"Nothing could have given him more pleasure than Anna’s joyful face; nothing could have given Anna more joy than to know that Caroline was at last in a happy haven..."
And a spot of wisdom:
"The solidarity of men accounts for half the trouble in the world..."
This was published in 1935 between Wild Strawberries and August Folly of which both were vastly better. I suspect that Ms Thirkell needed to write this book. I have not found any evidence that one, or both, of her two husbands were drunken abusers, but the only real passion in this novel comes in "poor" Caroline's brief allusions to how hard her life has been.
"There are natures that can be generous and forgiving under slights, neglect, privation, but if once terrified, physically or mentally, the wound to their inner self, the degradation of the immortal being, is such that they will be cold and implacable to the offender forever. They will never seek revenge, nor speak bitter words, but their lives will run frozen over black depths where past cruelties lie. Such, for right or wrong, were Caroline’s feelings for James, if ever he came to her mind..."
There is some slight reference to her love for James at the beginning of their relationship but this turns quickly to fear as he loses his way entirely,
Neither Hugh nor Francis [Caroline's cousins] knew whether James’ father and mother suspected his downward ways, and they came to the conclusion that interference would be useless and all they could do for Caroline was to wait, hoping for matters to mend.
"Maybe it'll fix itself". I have often tried this method with similar results. When James finally leaves England with another woman Caroline divorces him and begins to recover. Curiously she goes to live with James' family and curiouser still they welcome her.
"Where the man was possessed by the beast, divorce was simply a human being striking out wildly and savagely in self defence. As this passed, the anger engendered by fear might die, might give way to compassion, but the old fear could never be killed..."
As a love story this is not believable. We have three young women who all fall madly in love. We know only the hearts of two of them; Caroline is in love with her cousin Hugh, Anna, James' sister, in in love with Caroline's other cousin, Francis. Julia keeps her passion to herself. Meanwhile Francs is in love with Caroline and Anna with Francis. Anna's younger brother, Wilfred, is in love with Julia, as is Hugh, and surprisingly, as it turns out, she with him.
"Anna knew quite well. She could have hit Francis with all her strength, or she could have said: “Caroline loves Hugh. Take me for next best.” But these were not things to say or do..."
When Francis proposes to her Caroline turns him down in no uncertain terms and admits she is in love with another. When she learns of Julia and Hugh's engagement she immediately turns off all desire for him, apparently, and tells Francis that there is no one she loves. Julia's father, an old retired soldier, falls for Anna and – apparently – she for him. Very curious, I mean he's a nice man but at 49 he is well more than twice her age.
"'Francis is thirty-three and Hugh thirty-one,” said Caroline. “Hugh is five years older than I am'..."
So that leaves Francis and Caroline free and so she falls in love with him, apparently. This is all rather confusing to a person, like myself, who understands romance only through Christmas movies.
The good humour and affection of the Barsetshire novels is mostly missing, as is the pointed satire at the quirks of the English. Instead we have two young men, George and Wilfred, one admires Hitler and the other Soviet Russia. All taken together I found it pretty dull stuff.
A few quotes:
"Mr. Danvers’ [James' father] attacks of world pessimism were rather dreaded by his family, but they gave him such intense pleasure that no one grudged him his occasional fits of depression."
James' younger brothers leanings:
"George gave up a very dull evening party at which he had hoped to meet a Communist, and Wilfred ran a pencil through an entry in his diary, which had read, “West Kensington Blackshirt Rally, 7:45?"
"Wilfred remarked that Einstein was a poisonous little Jew. George said that say what he liked, the film world would be absolutely nowhere without the money and the artistic sense of the Jewish race..."
George confuses Einstein and Eisenstein. Curious times when a man acknowledged as a genius could be so regarded.
"The low sun threw such a glow on Caroline’s face that she looked younger than Colonel Beaton had ever seen her. “I have nothing to do,” she said in half humorous self-depreciation. “I can’t very well do the housekeeping when it isn’t my house, and I hate the poor, and I haven’t any gifts. I was rather good at having a husband and a home, but I’m out of work now...”
There is some spillover. The Danvers enjoy dinner at "the Deanery" where they meet, among others, Mrs Crawley and the Grantleys from Trollope and from Ms Thirkell's later series:
"I don’t agree with you about Mrs. Morland,” said Mr. Danvers. “I found her very agreeable and we should have had a really interesting talk after dinner if it hadn’t been for that intolerable bore Knox.” “Do you mean George Knox, Father?” said Anna. “The one that writes biographies? I adore his books.”
Naivete:
Before going to bed, he gave himself a little pleasant self-torture by saying aloud, “To think of Julia in Hugh’s arms,” though his boy’s modest mind gave no particular interpretation to the words, which were in the nature of a sacrifice to the Proprieties from a rejected lover..."
At the cinema in 1934:
Each was affected in his or her way by the romantic atmosphere of film-land, the wailing and throbbing of canned music, and the occasional sounds of the electric organ when its deep toned voice faltered..."
Caroline:
"She recognized it as one of the inevitable follies of her sex that she had loved without return and fed her love upon her own imagination..."
"...Caroline, only saved by the breeding that teaches one never to be conspicuous in public, did not faint..."
Three absurdities:
Mr Danvers reflects:
"...A wordless prayer for mercy for James and himself came from his heart. Then he knew that his spirit had left him and was following the likeness of James as he used to be. Thoughts and questions were left far behind. A silence fell about him, a still clear light filled his eyes. The vision of his lost son passed from him, but peace filled his heart..."
Francis proposing to Caroline:
"Would half-past eight tomorrow morning suit you?” “Yes,” said Caroline, lifting her face to her lover..."
"Nothing could have given him more pleasure than Anna’s joyful face; nothing could have given Anna more joy than to know that Caroline was at last in a happy haven..."
And a spot of wisdom:
"The solidarity of men accounts for half the trouble in the world..."
June 19, 2009
When Caroline's marriage with James shudders to a disastrous halt, she calls for the help of her cousins Hugh and Francis, longtime close friends. Knowing she needs care, Francis delivers her to the home of James's parents. A year after the divorce Caroline is still recovering. She and her cousins haven't sorted out how to be together. Their neighbors in the country and James's family: all of the people affected by James's behavior haven't yet come to terms -- when James returns.
Another of Thirkell's early novels, before she had settled in Barsetshire, although she does once mention the Dean of Barchester. O THESE MEN does not have the disadvantages of ANKLE DEEP; Thirkell gives her characters hope and isn't as deeply involved in making them be object lessons.
Another of Thirkell's early novels, before she had settled in Barsetshire, although she does once mention the Dean of Barchester. O THESE MEN does not have the disadvantages of ANKLE DEEP; Thirkell gives her characters hope and isn't as deeply involved in making them be object lessons.
January 3, 2018
I'm glad this wasn't the first Thirkell book I read, I may not have read any others. This one lacks the charm of her Barcetshire books.
Caroline is rescued from her alcoholic and abusive husband and goes to live with her in-laws while he leaves the country in disgrace. Of course, being a Thirkell novel, everyone then falls in love with the wrong people, but it all comes good in the end.
Caroline is rescued from her alcoholic and abusive husband and goes to live with her in-laws while he leaves the country in disgrace. Of course, being a Thirkell novel, everyone then falls in love with the wrong people, but it all comes good in the end.
August 31, 2011
I'm unlikely to seek out more Thirkell, but I quite enjoyed this one.
July 5, 2023
Thirkell creates a situation where an abused wife seeks the shelter of her husband's family, consisting of his parents, sister and two younger brothers. The husband has abandoned her, going off to South Africa with another woman. All through the divorce and for almost two years thereafter, the ex-wife lives with her husband's people, being looked after by them following a miscarriage brought about by the husband's brutality. The father sends his son a remittance for living expenses. Then the husband returns from South Africa and looks to his parents' house, where he has a natural claim. The mother, hitherto supportive of her daughter-in-law, is torn between the two, but again naturally inclines to her son.
This is an early Thirkell, and displays less sparkle than her Barsetshire books, partly because the situation is too close to home. Also, set before the war, the two young men in the house bandy words - and politics - of which they do not realise the full import or tragedy, as brownshirts, black shirts, Hitler, Lenin and other catchwords of the day. Thirkell's novels are romances, and this one is no different, except that the situation here is less straightforward. There are three couples in the mix, and they have to sort themselves out first.
Although normally Thirkell has a light touch with her characters, here the four women are all very negative - the mother of the philandering ex-husband is needy and querulous, so that her younger sons have got in the way of avoiding her. The daughter of the house sacrifices herself for the sake of everyone else, and agonises over an unrequited passion. The daughter of a neighbour is lively but empty-headed, although with time, she is likely to be more sure-footed. As regards the leading lady, everyone is sorry for her, but no one is more sorry than she for herself.
Fortunately, I had greatly enjoyed the other Thirkell novels, but this is not the best to start with.
This is an early Thirkell, and displays less sparkle than her Barsetshire books, partly because the situation is too close to home. Also, set before the war, the two young men in the house bandy words - and politics - of which they do not realise the full import or tragedy, as brownshirts, black shirts, Hitler, Lenin and other catchwords of the day. Thirkell's novels are romances, and this one is no different, except that the situation here is less straightforward. There are three couples in the mix, and they have to sort themselves out first.
Although normally Thirkell has a light touch with her characters, here the four women are all very negative - the mother of the philandering ex-husband is needy and querulous, so that her younger sons have got in the way of avoiding her. The daughter of the house sacrifices herself for the sake of everyone else, and agonises over an unrequited passion. The daughter of a neighbour is lively but empty-headed, although with time, she is likely to be more sure-footed. As regards the leading lady, everyone is sorry for her, but no one is more sorry than she for herself.
Fortunately, I had greatly enjoyed the other Thirkell novels, but this is not the best to start with.
February 25, 2019
So my star rating is a lie: I wanted to give it a 3.5. This is my second time attempting O, These Men, and this time I succeeded and actually really liked it--mostly because it's an interesting look into some dark corners that 1. Thirkell doesn't usually mention (alcoholism, spousal abuse severe enough to result in miscarriage), 2. were mostly hushed up at the time the books were written, and 3. actually (the experts think) happened to her. While Caroline is a bit mopey and apologetic, Thirkell shows some of her flashes of insight into character as she discusses the way James manipulates people around him, the conflict his parents feel, etc. etc.
Not a "here's a great introduction to Thirkell!" book, but an intriguing entry in her list of works.
Not a "here's a great introduction to Thirkell!" book, but an intriguing entry in her list of works.
August 6, 2017
The story was a little predictable, and there were way too many characters being noble about their feelings, but on the whole it was easy to read, and there are some clever and funny little observations about society at the time.
October 18, 2019
My edition had a lot of typos, plus the story just wasn't up to the standards I am used to in Thirkell's Barsetshire series.
May 19, 2020
2 1/2, really. I was alternately annoyed by most of these characters. It was diverting, but not nearly as good as a Barsetshire novel.
Read
June 4, 2023DNF. As much as I live Thirkell’s Barsetshire books, I lost patience after about two chapters of this early work. YMMV.
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