Frostflower and Thorn

Frostflower #1

by Phyllis Ann Karr

Book by Karr, Phyllis Ann

Genres: Fantasy, Fiction, Feminism, Sword and Sorcery, Speculative Fiction, High Fantasy, Science Fiction Fantasy

284 pages, Paperback

First published January 1, 1980

About the author

Phyllis Ann Karr is an author of fantasy, romances, mysteries, and non-fiction. She is best known for her "Frostflower and Thorn" series and Matter of Britain works.

Reviews

[Aelin Lovelace · Rating 4 out of 5]

Like the sequel (which I for some reason reviewed first, probably because I just finished it), I read this originally as a teen, and I was pretty surprised that it held up as well as I remembered it. It's definitely 80s sword and sorcery a la Marion Zimmer Bradley's Sword & Sorceress anthologies, but for me, that's a major selling point. I was SO HAPPY to find that the duology has been reprinted in ebook format. (And I want more, please!)

Thorn is a foul-mouthed warrior woman who wants desperately to be rid of an accidental pregnancy. This is actually something I didn't quite pick up on when I read it initially; she starts out looking for an abortionist. She then meets Frostflower, a sorceri who wants a child -- except the sorceri can only adopt because their powers are tied to their virginity. (Although this is something addressed and questioned later in the book.) While she's not actively looking for a child (she is out in the world to learn more to enhance her powers), she runs into Thorn, which is just perfect. She magically speeds up the pregnancy so that she can birth and have her child immediately (and so poor Thorn doesn't have to go through months of pregnancy herself, which would affect her ability to work as a warrior).

(Also, can I just say that I LOVE reading a book in which abortion is treated not as something shameful but as something practical for Thorn. She doesn't want a child, and pregnancy would affect her ability to support herself. Even before Frostflower enters the picture, Thorn treats it like it's no big deal, and I love that. It's so very rare to read a portrayal of abortion like this.)

The worldbuilding is exquisite and deeply interesting. I wish there were more about this world. But even more than the worldbuilding is the characters. Thorn is acerbic, blunt, and sometimes not totally likable -- but I couldn't help but love her. Frostflower is much more mild-mannered, thoughtful, introverted, curious, and questioning. You would think that they would be like fire and ice, but they actually strike a deep bond, which is, I would say, the focus of the story.

I won't go into more detail because that would be spoilers (all that I have mentioned happens in the first chapter or so, so I don't feel it's too much a spoiler), but suffice it to say, I loved the storyline. There's adventure, and some very deep and emotionally intense stuff that happens. Karr isn't afraid to go places other people wouldn't.

I rate it 4 stars because there are some pacing issues, but I think this was Karr's first novel, so that's not too surprising. (And a lot of sword and sorcery books, I find, have similar pacing issues.) It's a very feminist book, very focused on the women, their relationships with each other, and Frostflower's recovery from an extremely traumatic event is well-handled. I was worried that wouldn't stand up to a re-read as an adult, but I loved it, and very much wish there were more.

[Emma Deplores Goodreads Censorship · Rating 3 out of 5]

On the one hand, this book was better than I expected, given how obscure it is and how low the Goodreads average rating is. It’s an 80s sword and sorceress novel, featuring a warrior named Thorn who is pregnant and doesn’t want to be, and a sorceress named Frostflower who can’t have a baby for virgin magic reasons, but wants one and offers to magic Thorn’s out of her.

The book has a compelling plot, which I won’t spoil, and I did enjoy the characters. They’re very distinct from each other—Thorn is very rough-and-tumble, Frostflower an idealistic pacifist—and their perspectives likewise distinct. It’s fun to see them through each other’s eyes, and to see the growing friendship between them (though it felt a bit out-of-nowhere). Many authors seem to write all their female leads on the same template, so it was nice to see two who feel like fundamentally different people, and who have very different growth arcs. The prose is surprisingly decent (especially given the absurdity of the names!) and I liked the way that, although in the third person, it artfully shades into first-person thoughts at times.

There’s also more thematic heft than I expected. The book deals with a clash of religions in an interesting way, and the way people of faith respond to challenges to their beliefs feels realistic and heartfelt. It’s also thoughtfully feminist, without beating the reader over the head. It’s interesting to see an 80s fantasy book deal with issues of reproductive autonomy (though after Relinquished I can’t help but cringe at the trope of the indifferent birth mother, it is nice to see a fantasy book that offers no judgment on women wanting kids or not). I also liked the way it subtly questions power relations in society: in this world warriors are all women, but doing the grunt work of violence is not the same as having political power.

That said, if any book ever needed a content warning, this is it. A major portion of the novel consists of graphic rape and torture, described in memorable and extensive detail. It’s not skillfully dealt with either, being mostly swept under the rug after the fact: the victim just “gets over it” within a week or two and forgives everybody, which seems to be her general approach to life, but there’s no indication in the text that this might not work as well as she hopes. One of the perpetrators continuing to play a major role while being in denial about the harm he caused and not held accountable by anyone doesn’t help either. All this makes it hard to recommend. Which is too bad because with a somewhat different plot, this would have been an easy 4 stars from me.

[XX · Rating 5 out of 5]

This entire review is TW for: rape, assault, torture, unwanted pregnancy and abortion, discrimination, cultish practices and religion, because those are the core themes of this book.

Spoiler-texted parts of this review may contain excessively long or explicit passages from the text. I've used them to support my arguments about why this book is so good, but this book was a blind-read and as such I don't think it is necessary to read anything I have spoiler-texted unless you want to.

The themes herein are inherently difficult themes to handle properly and, because I have firsthand experience with all of them, I'm very sensitive to how authors address them contextually. Let me be clear: I WANT to see them talked about with AT LEAST the explicitness of this book, but without leaving me feeling soured, or angered, by an author's misunderstandings or misrepresentations.

I was not expecting a Sword and Sorcery novel, even one written by a woman (plenty of women writers have offended me with their treatment of this subject matter, after all) from ~40 years ago to handle such topics so deftly and with such empathic nuance, but here we are.

I LOVED this book and wanted to reread it almost immediately, but there is a sequel waiting.
I only became aware of this book in the first place because one of my favorite short stories in the "Sword and Sorceress" anthologies is one featuring the titular characters (Frostflower and Thorn) in a standalone format.
That story is witty and dark, but I wasn't expecting a book as dark as this; I picked this book up without reading the synopsis at all, on the sole merit that I instantly liked the writer's voice and the characters so much from the S&S short-story that as soon as I realized they were characters from a novel, I bought it.
I never pay money for books unless I'm very convinced I'll like them. This doesn't always actually pay off. It did.

I am so happy I found this book and this writer. Is it perfect-? No. Is it extremely good? Yes.

To get into the depths of why, I'll have to talk candidly about the core subject matter, but as implied by my liking of the short-story, the prose and characterization and worldbuilding within the text can and does stand on its own. The fact that she weaved such themes together so well caught me off guard because, as mentioned, I had no expectations, I had not read the plot synopsis.

Also, this was her debut novel, and it's better than half the books I've read recently by Inserts-Names-Here "Times Bestselling Authors" who have dozens of books under their belt. I'm beginning to get black-pilled to the fact that Lowest Common Denominator syndrome is real, and I'm increasingly thinking I need to lean in to my own book elitism and not away from it.
This book really made me feel that because I don't think anyone is going to remember or care much about this novel. But it's just genuinely so much better than so many bestsellers I've read.

Reading really is one of the most personal things you can go through, short of putting yourself in the vulnerable position of expressing why a book made you feel a certain way.

And, talking about why I liked this book so much is going to be a vulnerable experience for me, because I really can relate to so much of it, too much from personal experiences in my real life. I have considered not going further with this review because of that.
But reading this book was also incredibly therapeutic for me. It was therapeutic because it DID dare to 'go there' and it didn't fuck it up.
When readers connect to a book, we experience a kindred feeling that transcends time. That is what this was like for me. It felt so real and so understanding, despite ultimately being what many would dismiss as a schlocky S&S novel full of now-overworn tropes.

Analytically, this book could be called a feminist book, but per the author's own comment on her own work in the post-notes:

"Occasionally, over the years, I have felt bemused by readers who seem to regard this novel as “feminist”... on no other grounds than the fact that women do all the fighting—seeming to miss the evidence that men are very much in control of the farmer-priestly society, and do none of the actual fighting because the male body is regarded as far too important to risk. Things may perhaps be getting more egalitarian in the growing towns, and the sorceri have developed true gender equality in their retreats—but when Thorn bullies Spendwell, not only their individual personalities, but also a sort of class distinction comes into play: it has not fallen out of the farmers’ memory, at least, that once warriors were priestesses, while merchants have always been commoners; and farmer-priests regard themselves as above commoners. What does it say about our own society if we automatically assume that whichever sex does the gruntwork fighting is the dominant sex?
...My personal sympathies have always been feminist. But I think it better to explore than to preach; and I feel it is not the feminism, chauvinism, or egalitarianism of the setting that makes a fiction pro- or anti-woman, but how the female characters are shown coping with their milieu, whichever it is."

I couldn't help appreciating that the author was so self-aware of the fact that just because only women can be warriors in her society, that doesn't make it inherently feminist. A little ironically, this in itself is what makes her own commentary on her own writing so feminist, as well as illustrating the traps that a lot of other writers who attempt to "write feminism" often fall into, only to end up churning out something patronizing, tokenizing or regressive instead.
It's not enough for a female character to be a "strong, feisty, take-no-bullshit" character unless she is given appropriate context (which Thorn, who fits this archetype, actually gets-- and is the only reason why she works).

Indeed, Frostflower, for all her passiveness, meekness, motherliness, pacifist ideals and submissiveness, is no less a feminist character than Thorn is, specifically because we get to explore how she copes with being raped, tortured,literally stripped of her magical powers, imprisoned and traumatized.

Frostflower would summarily have been rejected as being a character who is "not feminist" by a team of Netflix writers/execs, and that's specifically because most people who are trying to "write feminism" misunderstand what actually makes a character feminist. Phyliss Ann Karr doesn't.

Also, not meaning to limit this to such a footnote, but there are distinct explorations of classism and social hierarchy systems that are intersectional to feminism herein. And even though as an atheist I felt vindicated by some anti-religious takeaways from the text, the book ultimately depicts religious people as not being inherently evil or immoral; we see the story from the perspective of Frostflower and Thorn, who both devoutedly follow very different religious sects and are both very dedicated to their religions, but also from the point of view of Inmara, the highly religious wife of a Farmer-Priest who actively participated in and initially condoned the rape, imprisonment and torture of Frostflower orchestrated by her husband, but later feels guilt-ridden by her actions.
Inmara, despite what she has done, is no less a relatable and sympathetic woman than Frost or Thorn is, because of the expert way in which Karr develops her and lets us understand her inner thoughts. She is presented as being trapped in a system and ultimately questioning it without resorting to shunning it or leaving it.

It's a delicate balance to execute such a respectful and critical treatment of religiousness. Karr understands that there is no such thing as black-and-white morality.

Even Inmara's husband, the Farmer-Priest Maldron, is frequently depicted in a sympathetic light despite his atrocities. Good and kind people can do terrible things if they believe that those terrible things are merciful and righteous. This is a core truth of life oft dismissed in media.

I also loved the redemption arch of the merchant Spendwell-- a paramour of Thorn's- beholden to have sex with any warrior who wishes to do so with him whether he wants to or not, due to the rules of their caste system-- and who also is then forced to rape Frostflower at Maldron's behest.
In the beginning, he is shown to be a snivelling coward, but by the end he has become the greatest ally of both Frost & Thorn as well as performing acts where he becomes courageous or and will risk his life.

And, like all of the characters in this story, Spendwell is a victim of the system he lives in himself. His caste status places him lower than many of the women who surround him.
He is, in a way, almost as much a victim as Frostflower, which in the hands of a lesser author would have me raging over this book due to the fact that Frostflower forgives him for raping her both during and afterwards, because SHE KNOWS he was forced to do it-- but she still cannot stomach being near him even when he becomes her ally, which is a very realistic depiction of traumatized conditioning vs logical emotional rationalization, actually.

No one in this book is 'evil', and that is what makes it so great.

Another thing I loved was the further exploration of Frostflower's ordeal. I know what it's like to be raped, tormented and held against your will. It chilled me how accurate (to me, I speak only for myself) the depiction of Frostflower's experience is.

The actual moment of penetration during her rape is fade-to-black, and it's masterful. I don't remember much about that either. But what Karr spends an excruciating amount of time on is everything leading up to it when you realize it's inevitably going to happen, and everything you feel after it the moment it's immediately over. That's the stuff that sticks with you. That's the stuff that remains raw and etched in your memory.

Then there is the matter of Frostflower's imprisonment and ritual torture and impending threat-of-death. Again, the prose is raw and disturbing in its accuracy of this type of experience and trauma:

(the following spoiler-text is long, because it contains many quotes)


" ...She found that hitherto, whenever she had contemplated rape as a thing that might happen to herself, her imaginings had stopped just short of the actual loss and never gone on to what would follow—as if she had expected to die at once."

"This was hardly the dark torture chamber of her own people’s imaginings; yet its menace was all the keener, as if she alone were forbidden to enjoy such beauty while in the very midst of it."

"And suddenly Frostflower understood the full bitterness of farmers’ cruelty. If she were imprisoned in a stinking cell underground, lying on bare wet straw, her wounds left to fester, and only moldy bread and stale water set out for her if she could feed herself in the darkness—then she could have looked forward even to scaffolding and hanging as a release. But surrounded with reminders that life could still have comforts, even after rape and torture… Yes, they are clever, they are cruel beyond anything we have imagined of them."

"From time to time the little part of Frostflower’s body that still cared about comfort noticed gratefully that they had left her her own sandals, with thick soles of many layers of cloth stiffened with tree-gum."

"She shivered and tried to concentrate instead on the birds’ calls. The birds—robins and thrushes, swallows and wrens—they might look on, but they could not understand, could not care, perhaps did not realize how some human creatures were hurting another.
If they noticed, they must think it some silly human game. The birds, the insects, the small animals that must be hiding even in a farmer’s private garden—all these would continue their own lives unconcerned with what happened to her or with what the farmer-priest who claimed to own their land did on it today."

"She could no longer hear the birds. She tried to concentrate on the pain instead—old Moonscar had told her there was a way, somewhere, of using pain as a ladder to climb above pain. It was a very dark way..."


Maybe I am just ill-read on the topic still, but I've yet to read an author who explicitly addresses the fact that being left with an awareness of life's pleasures and comforts can make the pain of this kind of trauma much, much more insidious and tormenting.
And, Frostflower's thoughts on how indifferent the universe is to her plight are something I have not been unfamiliar with. That they remain in the realm of the mundane world rather than a Lovecraftian-type cosmic indifference makes them that more immediate.

It made me feel empathized with and respected to see these things expressed without hesitance, and without judgement.

What else of this book-? The worldbuilding is intricate and deep, without exposition dumps. The reader's intelligence is trusted and Karr isn't afraid to put in lines, dialogue and details that gain relevance and context only later on.

The story is told in third-person but fluidly shifts between the point-of-view of three women, Frost, Thorn, Inmara. It is always very clear which woman's thoughts are being portrayed by seamless shifts in the style of prose, tone and choice of linguistics.

The book suffers from some pacing issues around 50%~70% but even within this section there is a lot of interesting things going on. I didn't ever want to skim or speed read even when the plot lagged.

I wished that there had been a little more focus on Frostflower's recovery towards the end, and that she had been a little less monk-like. Still the ending, which I won't spoil, was something I felt happy with.

Also, although I very much want to find a paperback copy of this book for my library (that original cover is beautiful), the ebook has some small "fixes" that the author herself addresses in the postscript; fixes she was not able to orchestrate when it was a mass-market published paperback. There are one or two typos left in the script, no more.

If I'm being critical, this book is a 4~ star read. It's not perfect. But god I just loved it and I loved every character and the author's language and voice, so I'm going to give it 5. And, Frostflower and Windbourne is waiting to be read.

[Althea Ann · Rating 4 out of 5]

I know I've come across short stories by Phyllis Ann Karr before, but this was the first novel I'd read by her. An early entry into the sword-and-sorceresss genre, it's a tale about two very different women: Thorn, a foul-mouthed, sex-loving, polytheistic warrior - and Frostflower, a virginal, vegetarian, monotheistic sorceress. With the topics of abortion and religion featuring significantly in the plot, I kept worrying that the story would veer into moralizing - but it gracefully steered clear, maintaining a respect for both women and their different points of view, while telling a fun and entertaining story.

[Jordan · Rating 4 out of 5]

This book became incredibly topical while I was reading it, with its exploration of women's rights, abortion, the effects of a patriarchal religion, and more. It hit hard, that's for sure.

[Elizabeth Wallace · Rating 2 out of 5]

I first read a short story about the characters Frostflower and Thorn ("The Garnet and the Glory") almost 20 years ago, and loved it. I enjoyed the full book about them, but I think Phyllis Ann Karr does much better in the short story format. Being forced to move the story along quickly does wonders for the pacing, because in the book whole pages would go by while the character considered every possible step and every possible outcome...you have to admire how THOROUGH Karr is in coming up with every possible facet of a plan, but you also find yourself going "Yes yes come ON let's GO.."

If I'd read the book first I'm not sure I would've liked the characters as much. Thorn is much more blunt in the longer format, and Frostflower WAY more naive. (Which is a piece of work, considering how naive she was in the short story.) But both characters are likable, and it was fun, after all these years, to see how they met. Haven't figured if I'll read the next book, but I'm not sorry I read this one.

[Alexandra · Rating 4 out of 5]

1st in series.

[Brenda Clough · Rating 4 out of 5]

A great fantasy novel, not one of your usual thud and blunder swordfests. Feminist in tone!

[Shaz · Rating 3 out of 5]

Originally published in 1980, this story features a swordswoman who wants an abortion and a sorceress who will oblige her by taking the kid off her hand. In its very premise, it's both a member of classic sword and sorcery stories and yet it's completely different in its mood as it isn't a story of men. The society is detailed and the story explores ideas of prejudice and religion among other things. Well developed in many aspects but unevenly paced.

[Olga Godim · Rating 3 out of 5]

Nothing spectacular. An average sword and sorcery featuring two female protagonists.

[Thomas · Rating 3 out of 5]

Nicht immer einfach zu lesen. Thorn ist kein einfacher Mensch, und auch Teile der Handlung waren abschreckend. In dieser Welt ist vieles möglich. Aber spannend und belohnt, dabei zu bleiben.

[Cissa · Rating 4 out of 5]

The best part of this book is the world. Karr really thought it out- the social classes, the magical systems, the theologies, and the economics. It's basically a spin on feudal, but with the towns more independent. The prejudice against the sorcerers is rampant, partly because their theology differs from most (most are polytheists; the sorcerers are monotheists), and because of their power. The sorcerers are feared, even though they are utterly non-violent.

The sex/gender egalitarianism is also a surprise. ALL the soldiers are women; men are not seen as suited to that lifestyle... and soldiers have a social status higher than that of merchants, etc.

So- the world is fascinating, and well-worth visiting.

The characters are distinctly drawn, sometimes in an exaggerated way, espeically with the swordswomen. The plot hinges on choices various well-described characters make.

I'm giving it a 4, though, because some of the violence, and the carefully described tortures, were shocking. OK, maybe that's a good thing... but it's not necessarily what I want to read unless I'm pre-warned.

Also, some of the action got repetitive. Escape from the pursuers kept going around in circles, and it felt stuck. Eventually things resolved... but only after a LOT of static circling. Karr tried to raise the stakes each time, and did- but it still felt static to me.

It's worth reading for the world, if you are prepared for the ugliness. (The ugliness was not exactly gratuitous, but I'm not convinced so much of it was necesary, either.)

[Corina · Rating 2 out of 5]

Apparently 80s sword and sorcery fantasy isn't really for me... also this had a lot of heavy content (rape, abortion, torture, etc.) despite it's female MCs and feminist themes.

I was really looking forward to seeing the friendship develop between Frostflower and Thorn, but it felt a bit rushed (one minute they hated eachother and the next they are besties?). Also WTF Spendwell - dude is just a rapist in denial. I did think that the struggles with religion and faith were super interesting (just wished magic wasn't tied to virginity). And I liked how mostly realistic the portrayal of the early days of motherhood were (though I imagine they would have been more sleep deprived).

Overall, it was a straightforward and mostly compelling read with many dark and uncomfortable moments. Good for a book club discussion, but I wouldn't pick up the sequels on my own.

[Robert · Rating 4 out of 5]

The name fooled me: "Frostflower and Thorn" sounded too much like Snugglepot and Cuddlepie to be a truly adult book, but it turned out to be a story I would not pass on casually to a ten year old at all. The fatuity of religious rites and dietary taboos, the cruelty that can be imposed by theocracies are only part of the picture. What I found interesting was that, although this is largely a male-dominated world, almost all the characters and all the violent characters are female - a different way of looking at things. I'm not sure what it was I liked in this tale of doom in a rather gloomy world, but I found it hard to put down.

[Amethyst · Rating 1 out of 5]

Couldn't end it. Rape and too much violence did not agree with me.

[William Leight · Rating 3 out of 5]

[Say 3.5 stars really]

[spoilers, but only for things that you will be able to see coming well ahead of time]

Not really what I was expecting after having read "The Idylls of the Queen" and "The Gallows in the Greenwood", what with the scenes of torture and rape. That aside, the real problem with the book is the title characters, and not just because you can guess what they will be like from their names. Frostflower is basically a saint, meek and mild and totally unwilling to see harm come to anybody, including the people subjecting her to the above-mentioned torture and rape, and that's always hard to pull off. Also, I can't quite help feeling that her meekness under her sufferings is what enables her to reclaim her powers at the end of the book -- a twist that absolutely everybody will see coming -- which is a bit disappointing. Thorn has to be rough-and-ready to provide a contrast, but she also has to have a heart of gold because she and Frostflower have to be friends, and she never quite transcends the cliches. On the plus side, the secondary characters manage to be more interesting. The farmer-priest and his wife could just have been pure evil to contrast to Frostflower's pure goodness, but Karr manages to make you see why the terrible things they do make sense to them, and even why the farmer-priest's death at the end can be interpreted not as a refutation of his beliefs but rather as a consequence of them. And the trader, a weak man trying to atone for his guilt, is possibly the most realistic character in the book. Karr also has an interesting setting, in some ways medieval European standard but in other ways not. The farmer-priests, for instance, combine the nobleman and the priest into a single person: each rules their own domain, and apparently they often clash. The sorceri (Frostflower being one), meanwhile, are not just persecuted for their magical powers, a la many Barbara Hambly books, but because they believe in a single god, rather than the farmer-priests' pantheon. And a chunk of the population is to be found in trading towns outside of any farmer-priests' jurisdiction, if not immune from their power. The one thing that felt a bit forced was the idea that in this world only women are warriors: in 1982 this was probably fairly groundbreaking but forty years later my main reaction was a certain annoyance at the impression Karr gives of deliberately coarsening up the warriors to shock the reader's sensibilities. Nonetheless, if this is not as brilliant as "The Idylls of the Queen", it's still entertaining enough to make me want to read the sequel.

[Benji · Rating 4 out of 5]

Strong worldbuilding, strong characters. Both lead characters and the supporting cast are well written and engaging. They have complicated beliefs that drive their actions and make sense within the fascinating world Phyllis Ann Karr created for the novel. Thorn is a highly entertaining brash, foul mouthed, yet surprisingly deep as you learn about the world, her place in it, and her beliefs because of it. It's easy to dismiss Frostflower as being passive, but it's the way her pacifism clashes with her will to achieve her goals that drives the plot forward.

Saying that Frostflower and Thorn is about a sorceress and a swordswoman raising a baby together is about as accurate as saying The Lord of the Rings is about a wizard giving a hobbit a ring. It's much more about the power structures in the world, and how religion can be used to prop them up. Yet it's never so simple and straightforward as "religion is bad". Every character has their own beliefs and makes good and bad choice based on them, heroes and villains alike.

It would have been so easy for Thorn to have been written as a flippant atheist. I feel like she would have been in just about any other book. The fact that she isn't adds so much to the character. It would have been so easy for the book to take a hard stance of "this religion is correct, this one isn't" but it doesn't. We're left not knowing if any of it is true, and the weight that adds to the decisions made by the characters because of their beliefs.

As a warning: There are graphic portrayals of cruelty, but they are not voyeuristic. The hardships the characters are made to endure can be hard to stomach, however, the cruelty performed and the beliefs that motivate it and attitudes that promote it are examined.

[Alicia · Rating 2 out of 5]

https://wordnerdy.blogspot.com/2021/1...

I had read another book by this author that fell into the quiet fantasy sort of category, and I was hoping for more of the same here. We start with grumpy, rude, crude warrior Thorn, pregnant and trying to afford an abortion, when she encounters sorceress Frostflower, who offers to speed-grow the fetus and adopt the child, as sorcerers must be virgins to access their power and this is her only way to have a child. So here I am hoping for an odd couple sort of story where they road trip around and have adventures in babysitting, except they keep bringing up that whole virgin thing and soon the entire book is just suffused with dread. And it’s a slow paced book so the dread is just always THERE. Content warning for rape and torture by a dude who is creepily gentle about it all bc of his creepy religion, and when I tell you I spent the rest of the book praying for him to die painfully…. I don’t know why I kept reading except to ensure they got away from him. And also there’s a sequel which I am hoping doesn’t involve any rapey farmer priests. B-.

[Etola · Rating 3 out of 5]

I walked away from this book with pretty mixed feelings. I enjoyed the title characters, especially Thorn. I liked the dynamic of her grappling with heavy questions and growing through her relationship with Frostflower. But also the book's setting is relentlessly grim, and much of the book's plot centers on rape, torture, and the threat of both. Seriously, much of what we learn about this setting is the inventive ways they've created to give criminals the most agonizing punishments possible. And as others have pointed out, the pacing is a little wonky, with a great deal of time spent with characters thinking out every possible way a plan might go. And I'm still not sure how I felt about the ending, which felt a little too pat and easily tied up.

[Molly · Rating 2 out of 5]

Frostflower and Thorn is what I would call a stripped-down fantasy story. It's really basic in its world, characters, and story. Maybe this was more special when it came out, as it has darker elements like sexual assault and horrible torture worse than death, but now it doesn't really strike me as interesting. I think the fault lies in the fact that it's so stripped-down. I don't feel like I know the world, why I should care, and why I would even continue when I feel I know how it will end up.

Maybe it's for you if you're looking for what dark fantasy is if you take all the elements out, but I can't see myself recommending it to anyone on any other basis.

[con · Rating 4 out of 5]

fell in love with these characters when i first read the s&s anthology, and now i love them even more. i feel like a lot of heavy topics were handled really well throughout the story, my only issue was that the majority of this book was dedicated to characters thinking out every possible plan and outcome to the point where it became jarring, whilst the executions were pretty rushed

[Caitlin · Rating 3 out of 5]

Three and a half stars. Fascinatingly creative and thorough world-building and two strong and distinctive characters, but it's hard for me to get too interested in the nuances of made-up religions and I found myself skipping. Really different than what's being done these days.

[Katherine McDonough · Rating 5 out of 5]

This book was great. I really enjoyed it. It has two strong and different female characters, an interesting and unique world, and plenty of action. I will be tracking down the sequel.

[Lara · Rating 2 out of 5]

I had hopes for a female fantasy team-up a la Tarma and Kethry from the Valdemar series. But as soon as Frostflower the sorceress mentioned that her magic was tied to her virginity, I flinched. Sure enough, Frostflower is explicitly raped, then taken into captivity, tortured to reveal the true parentage of her adopted infant son (never mind that as a sorceress, she literally cannot lie), promised mercy in the form of a place in her torturer's home as his concubine if she confesses, then tortured again nearly to death. It takes Thorn reluctantly rescuing her and the baby both to bring back her will to live. The author somehow managed to make a character both desperately invested in being a virgin and just as desperately invested in being a parent, with all the angst that would entail. Thorn is her polar opposite, referring to the infant as "the grub" throughout the book and making it abundantly clear how much she despises even the notion of motherhood.

As an example of a woman writing grimdark fantasy in the 1980s with female characters, it's viable. As an enjoyable story, not so much.

[Heather · Rating 3 out of 5]

This ISBN does not match the cover, publisher, or any other details listed here. The book I have with this ISBN has a yellow cover with a misty picture of some woods in the center, is published by Wildside Press, and is trade sized and 275 pages.

That said, the worst thing about the book so far, and the reason I wanted to be specific about the edition, is the publishing. It looks like someone photocopied a paperback onto trade sized paper. Often you will find distorted text consistent with photocopying. If the book hadn't come from Amazon I'd wonder at it's origins/legality.

The tale is a good one. There are some upsetting scenes of rape and torture, but I am not familiar enough with this genre to know how common that is. I borrowed the book from my husband. The book is quite good. I normally read romance and I found plenty to satisfy me here though it was far from the focus. If you can find a decent copy and not the painful to read version by Wildside Press that I stumbled on I would highly recommend it.

[Semantic Kat · Rating 3 out of 5]

I think this may be out of print; I found it used and yellowing. Nevertheless it's a fine example of the swordswoman/sorceress genre encouraged by Marion Zimmer Bradley, back in the day. The story provides a glimpse of a pretty neat world in which the sorcerers apparently occupy a sort of self-imposed lower class, and the warriors are rough, tough women. The ladies are not to be messed with, but they still take a definite second place to the priests and the lords. Probably pretty groundbreaking when it was first written. As for the story, it gets three stars due to clumsy characterization and a too-predictable deus ex machina near the end. Still, an enjoyable and riveting adventure tale.

[Bridget · Rating 2 out of 5]

I first read the sequel to this years and years ago, and it was a good quick read with really great worldbuilding. I saw this in a used bookshop the other day, so I picked it up to read the beginning of the story. It has the same lovely worldbuilding, but it was a good deal more violent than Frostflower and Windborn. And I just don't think I was really in the mood for this story right now.

Also, I completely love the dated cover featuring the warrior and sorceress. It's kind of the best part of the book.

[Scheherazade · Rating 5 out of 5]

the truth is I read this book in my teens and when it was reprinted read it again recently. it still held for me the magic and adventure it did the first time. I really enjoy the strength and resolve the main characters exhibit and the action is lively. I recommend this book to chick lit readers whom have been waiting for an adventure story for girls. Enjoy!

[Chris · Rating 2 out of 5]

You should be glad there isn't a book cover image on hand, is all I'm saying. It's better than the cover (some interesting feminist stuff, good world-building of a place I NEVER EVER want to visit), but it had serious pacing problems.

[Kaila · Rating 3 out of 5]

I took too long to read this. It was my "carry it around with me everywhere and only read a page when I'm waiting in line" book for like 6 months. It has a very disturbing rape scene. The friendship between Frostflower and Thorn was nice, but the rape scene kind of overruled everything.