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Beyond Beliefs: A Guide to Improving Relationships and Communication for Vegans, Vegetarians, and Meat Eaters
Vegans, vegetarians, and meat eaters can feel like they’re living in different worlds. Many vegans and vegetarians struggle to feel understood and respected in a meat-eating culture, where some of their most pressing concerns and cherished beliefs are invisible, and where they are often met with defensiveness when they try to talk about the issue. They can become frustrated and struggle to feel connected with meat eaters. And meat eaters can feel disconnected from vegans and vegetarians whose beliefs they don’t fully understand and whose frustration may spill over into their interactions. The good news is that relationship and communication breakdown among vegans, vegetarians, and meat eaters is not inevitable, and it is reversible. With the right tools, healthy connections can be cultivated, repaired, and even strengthened.
In Beyond Beliefs, internationally recognized food psychology expert and longtime relationship coach Dr. Melanie Joy provides easy-to-understand, actionable advice so you can:
• Learn the principles and tools for creating healthy relationships
• Understand how to communicate about even the most challenging topics effectively
• Recognize how the psychology of being vegan/vegetarian or of being a meat eater affects your relationships with others, and with yourself
In Beyond Beliefs, internationally recognized food psychology expert and longtime relationship coach Dr. Melanie Joy provides easy-to-understand, actionable advice so you can:
• Learn the principles and tools for creating healthy relationships
• Understand how to communicate about even the most challenging topics effectively
• Recognize how the psychology of being vegan/vegetarian or of being a meat eater affects your relationships with others, and with yourself
240 pages, Paperback
First published November 12, 2017
83 people are currently reading
1350 people want to read
About the author
Melanie Joy
9 books386 followersMelanie Joy is an award-winning psychologist, bestselling author, and internationally recognized voice on the psychology of social transformation, relationships, and emotional resilience. She’s written seven nonfiction books, which have been published or contracted in 23 languages, and she’s the eighth recipient of the Ahimsa Award—previously given to the Dalai Lama and Nelson Mandela—for her work on global nonviolence.
With her trademark blend of intellect, heart, and humor, she brings a fresh perspective to fiction in her new book, "A Half-Hearted Death Wish"—a bighearted, quirky, and thought-provoking debut novel.
You can learn more about her at melaniejoy.org.
With her trademark blend of intellect, heart, and humor, she brings a fresh perspective to fiction in her new book, "A Half-Hearted Death Wish"—a bighearted, quirky, and thought-provoking debut novel.
You can learn more about her at melaniejoy.org.
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Displaying 1 - 30 of 52 reviews
February 25, 2018
I wish this book had been available many years ago while I was going through STS. I had no idea that was what I had until I read her book now. I drifted away from the animal rights circle after working as a full-time activist for 5 years because even though I saw my organization and I making progress and gaining victories, I wasn't happy with my state of being at the time and the way I saw many fellow vegans communicate the cause. To me, violence is violence and it doesn't matter if it's to animals, to other human beings, or to ourselves. Instead of judging and fighting, I wanted to advance the cause by inspiring. I highly recommend this book to anyone who wants to bring more compassion to the world.
August 15, 2018
Are veg*ns and their meat-eating partners, family members, and friends destined for hurt feelings and clashes over mealtime, or is there a way for everyone to navigate this fork in the road? Melanie Joy writes with authority and compassion to both audiences in BEYOND BELIEFS.
Joy draws heavily from various approaches to relationship psychology and also the sociological ideas she presented in her earlier and better-known work, WHY WE LOVE DOGS, EAT PIGS, AND WEAR COWS.
The natural audience for BEYOND BELIEFS is the veg*n who is in a committed relationship with an omnivore. That’s not my situation. My spouse is vegetarian. [I do share my house with multiple carnivores—the kind with fur and claws. No, I do not expect any one of them to improve their communication skills or become more empathetic. (“Cats, when you woke me up by killing a bat in my living room, I felt you were being highly disrespectful…”)] But while not all veg*ns live with omnis, every veg*n has omni friends, family, and acquaintances…and this book will help bridge the gap and improve relationships with those folks, too.
While I personally still prefer Carol J. Adams’s LIVING AMONG MEAT EATERS (possibly because it’s the first book of its kind I ever encountered), I still liked this book a great deal, and I found myself slowing down to really digest what I was reading. What I truly appreciated was Joy’s ability to put wide-ranging, abstract concepts into concrete and understandable terms. That’s a gift.
While Joy is vegan, her purpose with this book isn’t to convert anyone or instruct readers on how to do so. Rather, she speaks to both sides of the dinner table, encouraging mutual respect and asking each to walk a mile in the other’s shoes. And both values systems will be shaken up a little.
To the vegan, Joy speaks with the reminder of just how entrenched the animal-use system—the system she has dubbed “carnism”— truly is, and that we’re all caught up in it to some degree or another. Indeed, most veg*ns were at one point meat-eaters. Even though we may now find the choice to eat animals cruel and selfish,
Carnism is institutionalized, meaning that it’s supported and promoted by all major social institutions, including medicine, law, education, and business. In other words, carnism is built into the very structure of society, shaping norms, laws, traditions, and our way of life. When a system is institutionalized, its beliefs and practices are promoted as facts rather than opinions and are accepted unquestioningly.
She reminds readers that even though plant-based eating is easier than ever for most people in the industrialized world, veg*ns are still very much going against the grain—something that remains mentally difficult for many people. We are living in a world where we are socialized by both culture and family that some types of animals are edible, and that we need to accept treatment of them that we’d never accept for say, pets or charismatic wildlife.
Because this paradoxical mentality is shared by virtually everyone in society, it’s considered normal, so we rarely, if ever, stop to reflect on it. And we’re not encouraged to reflect on it: when we’re growing up, nobody asks us whether we want to eat animals, how we feel about eating animals, whether we believe in eating animals—even though this daily practice has profound ethical dimensions and personal implications. Eating animals is just “the way things are.”
Some vegans, Joy explains, develop a viewpoint that sees the world as being made up solely of victims, perpetrators, and heroes. (We see this with vegans who argue that any act, no matter how damaging, is OK if it’s done “for the animals,” and so forth.) But people can and usually do inhabit multiple roles at once. For example, our economy is structured in such a way that most clothing and other consumer products are made in third-world countries, under pay and conditions we would never accept in the first world. What about the activist who is writing some wrong in America, while wearing shoes made in sweatshops in Asia? Is this person a perpetrator or hero? Suddenly the lines become more blurred.
Joy also patiently and rationally responds to “abolitionist” vegans who compare meat-eating to other atrocities and claim that we should no more accept or tolerate it than we would something such as domestic violence. Yet for the most part, people are not taught and socialized into believing that violence toward innocent human victims is normal, natural, and necessary, as they are in attitudes toward farmed animals.
To omnivores, Joy offers a guided tour into the mindset of the vegan. In short, we see the world far differently than you, and what you may see as innocent joking or fun, we experience as hurtful. Fifteen, twenty years on, I can still recall with painful clarity times when I was ganged up on with mockery, aggressive questioning, and graphic animal killing stories at mealtimes and in classrooms—things the perpetrators probably forgot an hour later, but which I still carry.
Nonvegans, who are often simply expressing the convictions and conditioning of the belief system they grew up in, are rarely aware of such defensiveness….Disparaging humor toward vegans is extremely common, but the phenomenon is largely invisible. Otherwise well-mannered people often make unkind jokes about vegans—usually right in front of vegans—even though they would consider similar jokes about members of other non-dominant groups totally inappropriate.
Reading these passages, I was reflecting back to a person who I consider to be very compassionate and sensitive in other contexts, bursting out with the old “People Eating Tasty Animals” joke, or the fact that nearly every Thanksgiving, I have someone ask me if my household’s vegan meal resembles the highly unappetizing “tofu turkey” played for gags on an Everybody Loves Raymond episode. (It doesn’t.)
Are these people intentionally trying to be mean to me? No, I doubt it. Anti-vegan attitudes are almost a given in our culture. As the book points out, if a vegan catches a cold, many carnists are quick to blame the diet, but if a person who has eaten the Standard American Diet all of their life has a heart attack, it’s “bad genes.”
And even though the meat, dairy, and egg industries quite literally control our legislatures and dominate our airwaves, vegans are almost universally depicted as pushy and aggressive. Writes Joy,
No matter how vegans present their ideas, they often still end up being seen as controlling…. Parents who raise their children vegan are seen as imposing their veganism on their children, while non-vegans are never seen as imposing their carnism on their children. Of course, we usually appreciate the fact that parents naturally raise their children according to their own beliefs, which is why we don’t expect Christians to raise their children as atheists, or Democrats to raise their children as Republicans.
An especially valuable section of this book discusses the way in which so many veg*ns accept these stereotypes as true and bend over backwards to try to defy them, sometimes to the detriment of their own mental health. I’ve done this myself plenty of times.
Vegans, too, have internalized some negative vegan stereotypes and can react to these stereotypes in a way that causes problems in their relationships. … Vegans can feel ashamed of their sensitivity to animal suffering and therefore hide or downplay their emotions.
So true! But here’s the thing. Factory farming is an atrocity, and emotions such as sadness and outrage are not only OK, they are perfectly healthy reactions to what’s going on. Indeed, most people would have these reactions to factory farming if society and omnis themselves didn’t put up so many mental and physical barriers to seeing what’s happening.
Vegans can remain true to ourselves and our truths without putting down or disrespecting others, the author emphasizes. We can still advocate on behalf of animals and ending the ugly system that causes so much cruelty and killing.
Joy makes valuable inroads with omnis, asking them to become allies with their veg*n friends and loved ones, even if they never plan to become veg*n themselves. The “Letter from a Vegan” at the book’s conclusion is highly valuable and welcomed. No, it’s not a trend or a lose-weight-quick plan, it’s an expression of deeply held values, and unwarranted jokes and attacks are just as hurtful as if a friend or partner mocked your most innate beliefs.
There were parts of the book I disagreed with. For example, I do not believe that everyone cares about animals. I think that a significant percentage of people do, indeed, like animals and don’t wish to see them hurt. However, I also think there’s a decent-sized minority who feel no empathy or bond with other species and are unconcerned by their treatment. Nor do I think all children are born feeling compassion for animals. I think empathy levels are one of those things that are hardwired, and some children, just like some adults, just naturally experience more of it than others.
I also don’t think some of the over-analytical approaches to arguments would work. While there is some truly good advice here, I don’t think that responding to an angry loved one with lines such as “I am feeling triggered by this” or “I need to reflect on this for a bit so we can discuss it later” is going to cause anything more than an escalation of rage on the part of the other person, especially as terms such as these have become a source of mockery in today's culture.
But overall, BEYOND BELIEFS is a needed and necessary book. As plant-based diets and animal ethics become higher-profile concerns in our culture, better ways of navigating these discussions need to be found. In addition, finding peace with friends and family is essential in encouraging people to both become and stay veg*n, as lack of social support is a major reason people go back to eating animals.
Joy draws heavily from various approaches to relationship psychology and also the sociological ideas she presented in her earlier and better-known work, WHY WE LOVE DOGS, EAT PIGS, AND WEAR COWS.
The natural audience for BEYOND BELIEFS is the veg*n who is in a committed relationship with an omnivore. That’s not my situation. My spouse is vegetarian. [I do share my house with multiple carnivores—the kind with fur and claws. No, I do not expect any one of them to improve their communication skills or become more empathetic. (“Cats, when you woke me up by killing a bat in my living room, I felt you were being highly disrespectful…”)] But while not all veg*ns live with omnis, every veg*n has omni friends, family, and acquaintances…and this book will help bridge the gap and improve relationships with those folks, too.
While I personally still prefer Carol J. Adams’s LIVING AMONG MEAT EATERS (possibly because it’s the first book of its kind I ever encountered), I still liked this book a great deal, and I found myself slowing down to really digest what I was reading. What I truly appreciated was Joy’s ability to put wide-ranging, abstract concepts into concrete and understandable terms. That’s a gift.
While Joy is vegan, her purpose with this book isn’t to convert anyone or instruct readers on how to do so. Rather, she speaks to both sides of the dinner table, encouraging mutual respect and asking each to walk a mile in the other’s shoes. And both values systems will be shaken up a little.
To the vegan, Joy speaks with the reminder of just how entrenched the animal-use system—the system she has dubbed “carnism”— truly is, and that we’re all caught up in it to some degree or another. Indeed, most veg*ns were at one point meat-eaters. Even though we may now find the choice to eat animals cruel and selfish,
Carnism is institutionalized, meaning that it’s supported and promoted by all major social institutions, including medicine, law, education, and business. In other words, carnism is built into the very structure of society, shaping norms, laws, traditions, and our way of life. When a system is institutionalized, its beliefs and practices are promoted as facts rather than opinions and are accepted unquestioningly.
She reminds readers that even though plant-based eating is easier than ever for most people in the industrialized world, veg*ns are still very much going against the grain—something that remains mentally difficult for many people. We are living in a world where we are socialized by both culture and family that some types of animals are edible, and that we need to accept treatment of them that we’d never accept for say, pets or charismatic wildlife.
Because this paradoxical mentality is shared by virtually everyone in society, it’s considered normal, so we rarely, if ever, stop to reflect on it. And we’re not encouraged to reflect on it: when we’re growing up, nobody asks us whether we want to eat animals, how we feel about eating animals, whether we believe in eating animals—even though this daily practice has profound ethical dimensions and personal implications. Eating animals is just “the way things are.”
Some vegans, Joy explains, develop a viewpoint that sees the world as being made up solely of victims, perpetrators, and heroes. (We see this with vegans who argue that any act, no matter how damaging, is OK if it’s done “for the animals,” and so forth.) But people can and usually do inhabit multiple roles at once. For example, our economy is structured in such a way that most clothing and other consumer products are made in third-world countries, under pay and conditions we would never accept in the first world. What about the activist who is writing some wrong in America, while wearing shoes made in sweatshops in Asia? Is this person a perpetrator or hero? Suddenly the lines become more blurred.
Joy also patiently and rationally responds to “abolitionist” vegans who compare meat-eating to other atrocities and claim that we should no more accept or tolerate it than we would something such as domestic violence. Yet for the most part, people are not taught and socialized into believing that violence toward innocent human victims is normal, natural, and necessary, as they are in attitudes toward farmed animals.
To omnivores, Joy offers a guided tour into the mindset of the vegan. In short, we see the world far differently than you, and what you may see as innocent joking or fun, we experience as hurtful. Fifteen, twenty years on, I can still recall with painful clarity times when I was ganged up on with mockery, aggressive questioning, and graphic animal killing stories at mealtimes and in classrooms—things the perpetrators probably forgot an hour later, but which I still carry.
Nonvegans, who are often simply expressing the convictions and conditioning of the belief system they grew up in, are rarely aware of such defensiveness….Disparaging humor toward vegans is extremely common, but the phenomenon is largely invisible. Otherwise well-mannered people often make unkind jokes about vegans—usually right in front of vegans—even though they would consider similar jokes about members of other non-dominant groups totally inappropriate.
Reading these passages, I was reflecting back to a person who I consider to be very compassionate and sensitive in other contexts, bursting out with the old “People Eating Tasty Animals” joke, or the fact that nearly every Thanksgiving, I have someone ask me if my household’s vegan meal resembles the highly unappetizing “tofu turkey” played for gags on an Everybody Loves Raymond episode. (It doesn’t.)
Are these people intentionally trying to be mean to me? No, I doubt it. Anti-vegan attitudes are almost a given in our culture. As the book points out, if a vegan catches a cold, many carnists are quick to blame the diet, but if a person who has eaten the Standard American Diet all of their life has a heart attack, it’s “bad genes.”
And even though the meat, dairy, and egg industries quite literally control our legislatures and dominate our airwaves, vegans are almost universally depicted as pushy and aggressive. Writes Joy,
No matter how vegans present their ideas, they often still end up being seen as controlling…. Parents who raise their children vegan are seen as imposing their veganism on their children, while non-vegans are never seen as imposing their carnism on their children. Of course, we usually appreciate the fact that parents naturally raise their children according to their own beliefs, which is why we don’t expect Christians to raise their children as atheists, or Democrats to raise their children as Republicans.
An especially valuable section of this book discusses the way in which so many veg*ns accept these stereotypes as true and bend over backwards to try to defy them, sometimes to the detriment of their own mental health. I’ve done this myself plenty of times.
Vegans, too, have internalized some negative vegan stereotypes and can react to these stereotypes in a way that causes problems in their relationships. … Vegans can feel ashamed of their sensitivity to animal suffering and therefore hide or downplay their emotions.
So true! But here’s the thing. Factory farming is an atrocity, and emotions such as sadness and outrage are not only OK, they are perfectly healthy reactions to what’s going on. Indeed, most people would have these reactions to factory farming if society and omnis themselves didn’t put up so many mental and physical barriers to seeing what’s happening.
Vegans can remain true to ourselves and our truths without putting down or disrespecting others, the author emphasizes. We can still advocate on behalf of animals and ending the ugly system that causes so much cruelty and killing.
Joy makes valuable inroads with omnis, asking them to become allies with their veg*n friends and loved ones, even if they never plan to become veg*n themselves. The “Letter from a Vegan” at the book’s conclusion is highly valuable and welcomed. No, it’s not a trend or a lose-weight-quick plan, it’s an expression of deeply held values, and unwarranted jokes and attacks are just as hurtful as if a friend or partner mocked your most innate beliefs.
There were parts of the book I disagreed with. For example, I do not believe that everyone cares about animals. I think that a significant percentage of people do, indeed, like animals and don’t wish to see them hurt. However, I also think there’s a decent-sized minority who feel no empathy or bond with other species and are unconcerned by their treatment. Nor do I think all children are born feeling compassion for animals. I think empathy levels are one of those things that are hardwired, and some children, just like some adults, just naturally experience more of it than others.
I also don’t think some of the over-analytical approaches to arguments would work. While there is some truly good advice here, I don’t think that responding to an angry loved one with lines such as “I am feeling triggered by this” or “I need to reflect on this for a bit so we can discuss it later” is going to cause anything more than an escalation of rage on the part of the other person, especially as terms such as these have become a source of mockery in today's culture.
But overall, BEYOND BELIEFS is a needed and necessary book. As plant-based diets and animal ethics become higher-profile concerns in our culture, better ways of navigating these discussions need to be found. In addition, finding peace with friends and family is essential in encouraging people to both become and stay veg*n, as lack of social support is a major reason people go back to eating animals.
December 18, 2024
I read this in hopes I would be able to communicate more effectively with non-vegans and to ease my mind a little, but I just came out of it more annoyed.
I agree with most of what Melanie says about veganism, except for the relationship/moral navigation. The grand overlying theme is don’t be judgmental and be nice and look from the other persons perspective, which is all good and I agree with, but like …………………. In the context of carnism I do not see how that can be applicable. Seeing the differences between a "party pooper" introvert and an adventurous extrovert is not nearly the same underlying issue as vegan vs non-vegan. To me it seems like the usual non-human animal rights issues are put below every other social issue, even though the baseline of the movement is the main message of other social issues—someone being different doesn’t mean they should be exploited, abused, and murdered. People not accepting animal rights alongside other social issues is why social issues are still so prevalent. Aph and Syl Kho’s book Aphro-ism: Essays on Pop Culture, Feminism, and Black Veganism from Two Sisters goes into this more.
If you’re anti-racist, anti-sexist, etc, and you get into a relationship with someone who’s racist, sexist, etc, does that make any sense? Like sure it’s possible, but is being compassionate and non-judgmental (ironic) and looking through their eyes actually logical? A lot of the focus here seems to be on the vegan being open-minded toward close-minded people, and that’s most likely because non-vegans never pick up these books or bother learning in general about veganism. I just find it really backwards that requesting someone change their attitude towards animal agriculture is considered disrespectful to Melanie, but someone actively contributing to a harmful industry deserves respect and has a right to their attitude? Like what. It’s actually ridiculous to me that close-minded people basically get a pass on all their attitudes because it would fall out of line for open-minded people to be judgmental of them, ok sureeeeee. Being vegan is already hard enough as it is; making it so that vegans should lower their expectations that people might actually maybe you know, be morally consistent, and errm to not be mad at the fact people still will support exploitation of animals in the name of pleasure, even when faced with the reality of what that brings, drives me through the wall. And well if u mad bro, learn to respect people and their choices cause their choices certainly aren't affecting anyone else, am I right ladies?
There’s the argument of what’s actually moral and good or bad, but I’m pretty sure if something someone’s doing harms another being, that means they are in the wrong moral wise… or nah guess not. Frankly this book gave me headaches and made me rather angry. Would people let this slide for other social issues? Most people would not. So carnsim only gets a pass because it's a long-standing idea to exploit animals, and being vegan actually requires you to change your lifestyle? If someone knows what goes on in order to produce animal products and has the means to go vegan but refuses to change, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with me not respecting them. People and issues aren't black and white, but I don't think it's too much to ask when requesting people stop supporting a horrific industry and to view non-human animals as beings with their own lives, not just as products.
I think her advice for relationships is good generally, but for me in the context of veganism, it’s a nope.
I agree with most of what Melanie says about veganism, except for the relationship/moral navigation. The grand overlying theme is don’t be judgmental and be nice and look from the other persons perspective, which is all good and I agree with, but like …………………. In the context of carnism I do not see how that can be applicable. Seeing the differences between a "party pooper" introvert and an adventurous extrovert is not nearly the same underlying issue as vegan vs non-vegan. To me it seems like the usual non-human animal rights issues are put below every other social issue, even though the baseline of the movement is the main message of other social issues—someone being different doesn’t mean they should be exploited, abused, and murdered. People not accepting animal rights alongside other social issues is why social issues are still so prevalent. Aph and Syl Kho’s book Aphro-ism: Essays on Pop Culture, Feminism, and Black Veganism from Two Sisters goes into this more.
If you’re anti-racist, anti-sexist, etc, and you get into a relationship with someone who’s racist, sexist, etc, does that make any sense? Like sure it’s possible, but is being compassionate and non-judgmental (ironic) and looking through their eyes actually logical? A lot of the focus here seems to be on the vegan being open-minded toward close-minded people, and that’s most likely because non-vegans never pick up these books or bother learning in general about veganism. I just find it really backwards that requesting someone change their attitude towards animal agriculture is considered disrespectful to Melanie, but someone actively contributing to a harmful industry deserves respect and has a right to their attitude? Like what. It’s actually ridiculous to me that close-minded people basically get a pass on all their attitudes because it would fall out of line for open-minded people to be judgmental of them, ok sureeeeee. Being vegan is already hard enough as it is; making it so that vegans should lower their expectations that people might actually maybe you know, be morally consistent, and errm to not be mad at the fact people still will support exploitation of animals in the name of pleasure, even when faced with the reality of what that brings, drives me through the wall. And well if u mad bro, learn to respect people and their choices cause their choices certainly aren't affecting anyone else, am I right ladies?
There’s the argument of what’s actually moral and good or bad, but I’m pretty sure if something someone’s doing harms another being, that means they are in the wrong moral wise… or nah guess not. Frankly this book gave me headaches and made me rather angry. Would people let this slide for other social issues? Most people would not. So carnsim only gets a pass because it's a long-standing idea to exploit animals, and being vegan actually requires you to change your lifestyle? If someone knows what goes on in order to produce animal products and has the means to go vegan but refuses to change, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with me not respecting them. People and issues aren't black and white, but I don't think it's too much to ask when requesting people stop supporting a horrific industry and to view non-human animals as beings with their own lives, not just as products.
I think her advice for relationships is good generally, but for me in the context of veganism, it’s a nope.
October 1, 2019
I don’t think it’s appropriate to suggest that vegans are the ones that need to further expand their communication skills (ahem “bullshit” skills) to attempt at false connections with people who harm and exploit animals for pleasure.
This is just my take on the matter of vegans vs animal exploiters - I don’t think at any point in history it was those that catered and tailored themselves to making racists, sexists, murderers, rapists, slave owners, or any other type of culture that normalized the exploitation of the other more comfortable ultimately did anything but prolong the suffering of that group.
Furthermore the burden has also already been put on the vegan for just being vegan in this shit shit world with shit shit people who love to harm all animals for the slightest bit of sensory pleasure - it is insane to expect a vegan to further burden themselves at an attempt of some shrewd manipulative connections with people who are too stunned to take a look around themselves.
Once you have the information and if you do not stop exploiting animals because your tongue is bigger than your brain 👅>🧠 I have no possible way to connect with you. Your sensationally driven logic is invalid and I have no interest in the intellectual insanity that results from talking to a pile of bricks. “Meat Good” “Environment Fine” “Exploitation Fun”
This is just my take on the matter of vegans vs animal exploiters - I don’t think at any point in history it was those that catered and tailored themselves to making racists, sexists, murderers, rapists, slave owners, or any other type of culture that normalized the exploitation of the other more comfortable ultimately did anything but prolong the suffering of that group.
Furthermore the burden has also already been put on the vegan for just being vegan in this shit shit world with shit shit people who love to harm all animals for the slightest bit of sensory pleasure - it is insane to expect a vegan to further burden themselves at an attempt of some shrewd manipulative connections with people who are too stunned to take a look around themselves.
Once you have the information and if you do not stop exploiting animals because your tongue is bigger than your brain 👅>🧠 I have no possible way to connect with you. Your sensationally driven logic is invalid and I have no interest in the intellectual insanity that results from talking to a pile of bricks. “Meat Good” “Environment Fine” “Exploitation Fun”
January 6, 2018
This may be the greatest book on psychology, relationships and communication I ever read. It is not only a very important book for every vegan and vegetarian and those who are in relationships with them but for everyone who is interested in improving their relationships and their lives. It helped me a lot to understand and accept the people around me and my past-self and it encourages me to continue working on my interactions and arguments with others. Especially the appendix is so helpful and has a lot of practical tips that everyone can implement. But my personal highlight is the "Letter to a non-vegan" that could help so many people to understand what veganism is about without feeling judged and offended and so being able to read it with an open mind and heart.
I am really grateful for this book and can really highly recommend it.
I am really grateful for this book and can really highly recommend it.
July 27, 2019
I expected the book to focus mostly on communication between vegans and non-vegans who don't know each other well, but instead it is primarily about long term romantic relationships. Others in our Readin' Vegans book club said they had had the same expectation upon first opening the book. Group members also commented that the title "Beyond Beliefs" is misleading (sounds like it could be about religion), and that the terms and concepts were too technical and hard to understand.
That said, we agreed that any relationship help on the subject of veganism is important, because as more and more people respond positively to the vegan (or plant-based) message, more and more will probably find themselves in "mixed marriages." We also agreed that, once understood, the advice and recommendations are sound and well thought out.
We previously read Dr. Joy's book "Why We Love Dogs . . ." and are especially impressed with her articulate description and naming of carnism.
That said, we agreed that any relationship help on the subject of veganism is important, because as more and more people respond positively to the vegan (or plant-based) message, more and more will probably find themselves in "mixed marriages." We also agreed that, once understood, the advice and recommendations are sound and well thought out.
We previously read Dr. Joy's book "Why We Love Dogs . . ." and are especially impressed with her articulate description and naming of carnism.
July 25, 2019
I was one of the many who read, and was impressed by, Melanie Joy's earlier book "Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows." What I liked about it was the simplicity of the key thesis and the way she explained it. It was simple and obvious.
This book is also about social psychology, but other than that it is completely different and much harder to evaluate. It is more complex and requires a bit more patience, though she does explain everything clearly. I would suggest this book for people who are specifically wanting to know more about how vegans and nonvegans relate to each other in personal relationships. Since I've been dealing, as a vegan, with nonvegans for decades --- and because my spouse was already vegan when we met, Yay! --- I didn't really feel this was a problematic area for me personally (so for me, the book is three stars). So while I agreed with what she was saying, it was a bit hard for me to retrofit all her explanations into my experience and preconceived notions. But I think it would be helpful for people who need guidance in this area (so, for such people, four stars).
This book is about personal relationships. I think I had a brief hope, upon picking up the book, that this book would give us some understanding of how to communicate vegan ideas to non-vegans, along the lines of her previous book. Well, you might be able to get that out of the book, but that's not what it's about. If you are a vegan who has a nonvegan spouse or other nonvegan family members, or personal friends who are not vegans, THEN you're in the right place. In fact, it would be a good book to navigate any serious ideological difference in personal relationships, like different religions or different politics, using the vegan / nonvegan divide as an example.
The book is also much more complex. Or, I should say, it is more obviously complex, since "Why We Love Dogs" actually has packed a lot of information into its covers, but since her readers (mostly vegans) already understood the key problem, it was easy to digest. In this book, she uses a lot of words to describe relationships that have an intuitive meaning, but are explained in a "technical" way. These words include such things as: integrity, security, connection, respect, attachment styles, compatibility, relationship categories, oppressive systems, triangulation, denial, and emotional triggers.
Got all that? What is technical about her book is not that these words are complex or unfamiliar --- I'm familiar with all or most of them already. It's that suddenly we're being asked to understand statements relating "connection" to, e. g., "triangulation" or "denial." So you have to think about what each word actually is intended to convey, and then try to understand how all of this relates to communications between vegans and meat-eaters.
The chapters that made the most sense to me were chapters 5 and 6. Chapter 5 was a review of her ideas about carnism, explored in the earlier "Why We Love Dogs" book, but if you haven't read that earlier book, it's good. Chapter 6 really did have some helpful and new information for me. The idea of "secondary traumatic stress" --- stress not due to trauma, but to the witnessing of trauma --- was interesting, and it renewed my determination not to look at violent images of animals being mistreated, even though this may be great for vegans for propaganda purposes. She also said that people who suffer trauma may unintentionally inflict trauma on themselves and others by rehashing these things. When have you ever seen this happen on Facebook?
The one thing she said that I would have liked to see some additional comments on, was concerning unraveling conflict. She wants to have conflicts resolved in a "fair" way that respect each person's integrity. Yes, for sure, but in a long-term relationship, what you really want to do is to avoid chronic conflict altogether by dealing with it. E. g. if the conflict is over what to eat, then reach some sort of compromise and then STICK WITH IT so that it's settled. What I often hear is that the nonvegan spouse agrees not to bring nonvegan items into the house or when they're together, but is free to eat meat when they're out with someone else by themselves. Chronic conflicts need to be avoided because they make the relationship not worth having. If you somehow can't reach a compromise that you can really and truly live with, then the relationship should likely be ended, because chronic conflict isn't going to make anyone happy.
This book is also about social psychology, but other than that it is completely different and much harder to evaluate. It is more complex and requires a bit more patience, though she does explain everything clearly. I would suggest this book for people who are specifically wanting to know more about how vegans and nonvegans relate to each other in personal relationships. Since I've been dealing, as a vegan, with nonvegans for decades --- and because my spouse was already vegan when we met, Yay! --- I didn't really feel this was a problematic area for me personally (so for me, the book is three stars). So while I agreed with what she was saying, it was a bit hard for me to retrofit all her explanations into my experience and preconceived notions. But I think it would be helpful for people who need guidance in this area (so, for such people, four stars).
This book is about personal relationships. I think I had a brief hope, upon picking up the book, that this book would give us some understanding of how to communicate vegan ideas to non-vegans, along the lines of her previous book. Well, you might be able to get that out of the book, but that's not what it's about. If you are a vegan who has a nonvegan spouse or other nonvegan family members, or personal friends who are not vegans, THEN you're in the right place. In fact, it would be a good book to navigate any serious ideological difference in personal relationships, like different religions or different politics, using the vegan / nonvegan divide as an example.
The book is also much more complex. Or, I should say, it is more obviously complex, since "Why We Love Dogs" actually has packed a lot of information into its covers, but since her readers (mostly vegans) already understood the key problem, it was easy to digest. In this book, she uses a lot of words to describe relationships that have an intuitive meaning, but are explained in a "technical" way. These words include such things as: integrity, security, connection, respect, attachment styles, compatibility, relationship categories, oppressive systems, triangulation, denial, and emotional triggers.
Got all that? What is technical about her book is not that these words are complex or unfamiliar --- I'm familiar with all or most of them already. It's that suddenly we're being asked to understand statements relating "connection" to, e. g., "triangulation" or "denial." So you have to think about what each word actually is intended to convey, and then try to understand how all of this relates to communications between vegans and meat-eaters.
The chapters that made the most sense to me were chapters 5 and 6. Chapter 5 was a review of her ideas about carnism, explored in the earlier "Why We Love Dogs" book, but if you haven't read that earlier book, it's good. Chapter 6 really did have some helpful and new information for me. The idea of "secondary traumatic stress" --- stress not due to trauma, but to the witnessing of trauma --- was interesting, and it renewed my determination not to look at violent images of animals being mistreated, even though this may be great for vegans for propaganda purposes. She also said that people who suffer trauma may unintentionally inflict trauma on themselves and others by rehashing these things. When have you ever seen this happen on Facebook?
The one thing she said that I would have liked to see some additional comments on, was concerning unraveling conflict. She wants to have conflicts resolved in a "fair" way that respect each person's integrity. Yes, for sure, but in a long-term relationship, what you really want to do is to avoid chronic conflict altogether by dealing with it. E. g. if the conflict is over what to eat, then reach some sort of compromise and then STICK WITH IT so that it's settled. What I often hear is that the nonvegan spouse agrees not to bring nonvegan items into the house or when they're together, but is free to eat meat when they're out with someone else by themselves. Chronic conflicts need to be avoided because they make the relationship not worth having. If you somehow can't reach a compromise that you can really and truly live with, then the relationship should likely be ended, because chronic conflict isn't going to make anyone happy.
July 21, 2023
Here is my issue with this book: for all the talk about improving communication styles, I don’t think Dr. Melanie Joy is actually as good of a communicator as she assumes she is. I get it, she has a degree in psychology and has written multiple books, but this one to me seemed more like a cash grab than something that needed to be said.
The issue I have with Dr. Melanie Joy’s communication style is that she seems to be unaware of the amount of passive aggression in her communication. She’s continuously hostile to non-vegans and to vegans who she considers bad (mainly those that don’t communicate like her). She communicates in a veneer of being nice and talks in a nice tone, but it’s really a disassociation from the “bad” feelings like anger and aggression that she may sometimes feel on this topic. Rather than being direct and quick to the point, as a result, she beats around the bush, and it’s often as if the other person can’t handle her just coming out and saying what she thinks and her actual views.
That’s my main issue with the book. My second issue with the book is that non-vegans aren’t going to be reading it, and a big portion of it is clearly spent used to try to communicate to them in a patronizing tone.
Ultimately, the last two pages are really all that’s needed which doesn’t need to be a book. If you’re having relationship issues, look to see a therapist, either individually or as a couple. Try to see where your partner is coming from, and if you can’t, maybe re-assess whether it’s worth it to be in that relationship. The rest was just pop psychology but watered down and applied in a clunky, bad way, imo.
The issue I have with Dr. Melanie Joy’s communication style is that she seems to be unaware of the amount of passive aggression in her communication. She’s continuously hostile to non-vegans and to vegans who she considers bad (mainly those that don’t communicate like her). She communicates in a veneer of being nice and talks in a nice tone, but it’s really a disassociation from the “bad” feelings like anger and aggression that she may sometimes feel on this topic. Rather than being direct and quick to the point, as a result, she beats around the bush, and it’s often as if the other person can’t handle her just coming out and saying what she thinks and her actual views.
That’s my main issue with the book. My second issue with the book is that non-vegans aren’t going to be reading it, and a big portion of it is clearly spent used to try to communicate to them in a patronizing tone.
Ultimately, the last two pages are really all that’s needed which doesn’t need to be a book. If you’re having relationship issues, look to see a therapist, either individually or as a couple. Try to see where your partner is coming from, and if you can’t, maybe re-assess whether it’s worth it to be in that relationship. The rest was just pop psychology but watered down and applied in a clunky, bad way, imo.
April 7, 2023
In this book Joy promotes the idea that you can be an vegan ally why still causing all the problems that vegans are trying to avoid. This is nonsence! It is like saying that one could be a "feminist ally" to a man promoting feminism while one is participating in women trafficking.
Most people would not consider that person to be a "feminist ally" , but rather a "feminist enemy" . In the same way one should judge the "vegan ally" as acctually a a "vegan enemy". Either one is in favour of giving animals the basic right not to be treated as property or one is against it. Our attitude to the person promoting the rights is irrelevant.
Joy has unfortunately missunderstood things here. She is comparing being a "Vegan ally" with being a "gay ally". Because one can be against heterosexism while still being hetero. But one can not be against animal exploitation while not being vegan.
Most people would not consider that person to be a "feminist ally" , but rather a "feminist enemy" . In the same way one should judge the "vegan ally" as acctually a a "vegan enemy". Either one is in favour of giving animals the basic right not to be treated as property or one is against it. Our attitude to the person promoting the rights is irrelevant.
Joy has unfortunately missunderstood things here. She is comparing being a "Vegan ally" with being a "gay ally". Because one can be against heterosexism while still being hetero. But one can not be against animal exploitation while not being vegan.
October 15, 2019
Very interesting read.
On one hand it demystifies the kind of relationship problems between plant-based and meat eaters by explaining them in a way that could be related to basically any kind of relationship problems for people with different core beliefs, on the other hand it just skims the surface of every kind of issue so much so that I could sum up the whole book with the following advice: be respectful, accepting and expect that from the people in your relationships.
So basically it's more of a general relationship advice book than a specific plant-based / meat eater relationship advice. Given that I would recommend to anyone with relationship issues of any order, including verbal and physical abuse that is also tackled in the book.
On one hand it demystifies the kind of relationship problems between plant-based and meat eaters by explaining them in a way that could be related to basically any kind of relationship problems for people with different core beliefs, on the other hand it just skims the surface of every kind of issue so much so that I could sum up the whole book with the following advice: be respectful, accepting and expect that from the people in your relationships.
So basically it's more of a general relationship advice book than a specific plant-based / meat eater relationship advice. Given that I would recommend to anyone with relationship issues of any order, including verbal and physical abuse that is also tackled in the book.
February 13, 2019
I wish everyone would read this book about how to have better relationships and conversations with people they disagree with. Appendix 6, 7, & 8 are especially amazing: sample letters from a vegan to a non vegan, requesting to be a vegan ally, to be heard, and to be respected. Everything here would apply to differing political or religious beliefs, etc, as well.
July 25, 2019
In Beyond Beliefs: A Guide to Improving Relationships and Communication for Vegans, Vegetarians, and Meat Eaters Melanie Joy offers valuable general advise about dealing with conflicts and improving communication. I have difficulty absorbing this kind of material. The book would have been better for me if the advise had been condensed to something almost like an outline.
The author applies her general advice to example situations involving interactions between vegans and non-vegans. Although I have been eating a vegan diet for several years, I can't think of once that anything like the situations Joy describes have come up in my personal experience. However, I can imagine that Joy's examples may be relevant to people who are more vocal than I about their veganism.
I found one thing bothersome about Joy's writing style. Rules about pronouns agreeing with their antecedents in gender and number have been drummed into my head since grade school. Joy has a habit of choosing singular people of undefined gender in her examples and then referring to them with the pronoun “they.” I understand why she does this, but I can't help being jarred every time that she does.
The author applies her general advice to example situations involving interactions between vegans and non-vegans. Although I have been eating a vegan diet for several years, I can't think of once that anything like the situations Joy describes have come up in my personal experience. However, I can imagine that Joy's examples may be relevant to people who are more vocal than I about their veganism.
I found one thing bothersome about Joy's writing style. Rules about pronouns agreeing with their antecedents in gender and number have been drummed into my head since grade school. Joy has a habit of choosing singular people of undefined gender in her examples and then referring to them with the pronoun “they.” I understand why she does this, but I can't help being jarred every time that she does.
April 2, 2018
Unlike Dr. Melanie Joy's book Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows, I did not find Beyond Beliefs to be a fast read. It was a bit more work but well worth the effort. Beyond Beliefs is an insightful and constructive read geared especially for vegans who struggle to some degree in how to be in a relationship with a non-vegan. That said, it's also a book based on the doctor's thorough understanding of psychology and the principles found in this book could be helpful to nearly anyone.
Read
July 9, 2021I think this would actually be a rather dense and challenging read if you didn't have prior knowledge of relational psychology concepts. Since it's something that interests me, I found this to be a worthwhile refresher of a lot of information, but I don't actually think this is a super accessible read for the average vegan looking to understand how to approach conversations around the subject.
December 25, 2021
I wish I had this book earlier, during my first years as vegan.
January 2, 2024
Highly recommend for any vegan or non- vegan to read. Very helpful for helping us be more compassionate to each other.
Read
August 22, 2025some other time
January 25, 2018
**OBTAINED: Goodreads Giveaway**
"Vegans, vegetarians, and meat eaters can feel like they’re living in different worlds. Many vegans and vegetarians struggle to feel understood and respected in a meat-eating culture, where some of their most pressing concerns and cherished beliefs are invisible, and where they are often met with defensiveness when they try to talk about the issue. They can become frustrated and struggle to feel connected with meat eaters. And meat eaters can feel disconnected from vegans and vegetarians whose beliefs they don’t fully understand and whose frustration may spill over into their interactions. The good news is that relationship and communication breakdown among vegans, vegetarians, and meat eaters is not inevitable, and it is reversible. With the right tools, healthy connections can be cultivated, repaired, and even strengthened..." -Book Blurb
This was a really brilliant, compelling read. It was highly educational and deeply informative. The author, Dr. Melanie Joy, food psychologist and relationship coach, is really a wonderfully talented writer, which makes the vast amount of information in this book far easier to process and enjoyable to read. I do not say that lightly. This book is a very fascinating read, great for Vegans, Vegetarians and Meat-eaters alike, as the titles states. I would especially recommend this book to those involved in Vegan/Vegetarian and Meat-eater personal relationships, especially partner/spousal or intimate relationships, as there was plenty of useful information on communication for both parties.
"Only with awareness of carnism can we reclaim our freedom of choice; without awareness, there is no free choice."
Joy’s writing style was very socially driven and psychologically enlightening. She sheds objective light on the many perspectives that surrounds this complicated and diverse lifestyle and how it effects those around them, who perhaps have limited understanding of Veganism, or those who reject its ideology altogether. However, it is a very unique book because it does not only seek to relate to Vegans and Vegetarians but rather seeks to bridge in the gaps between them all, to offer lessons in communicating with people with different beliefs than your own. Therefore, it would seem a good book for Meat-eaters to read as well, especially if they have Vegan loved ones. As a longterm Vegetarian myself, I found this book very useful and had much to ponder on afterwards. This was indeed a good read and will be a definite reread for me. I would recommend this book to Vegans/Vegetarians who can feel overwhelmed in their lifestyle in a predominately carnivorous world.
[OFFICIAL RATING: 4.5 STARS]
"Vegans, vegetarians, and meat eaters can feel like they’re living in different worlds. Many vegans and vegetarians struggle to feel understood and respected in a meat-eating culture, where some of their most pressing concerns and cherished beliefs are invisible, and where they are often met with defensiveness when they try to talk about the issue. They can become frustrated and struggle to feel connected with meat eaters. And meat eaters can feel disconnected from vegans and vegetarians whose beliefs they don’t fully understand and whose frustration may spill over into their interactions. The good news is that relationship and communication breakdown among vegans, vegetarians, and meat eaters is not inevitable, and it is reversible. With the right tools, healthy connections can be cultivated, repaired, and even strengthened..." -Book Blurb
This was a really brilliant, compelling read. It was highly educational and deeply informative. The author, Dr. Melanie Joy, food psychologist and relationship coach, is really a wonderfully talented writer, which makes the vast amount of information in this book far easier to process and enjoyable to read. I do not say that lightly. This book is a very fascinating read, great for Vegans, Vegetarians and Meat-eaters alike, as the titles states. I would especially recommend this book to those involved in Vegan/Vegetarian and Meat-eater personal relationships, especially partner/spousal or intimate relationships, as there was plenty of useful information on communication for both parties.
"Only with awareness of carnism can we reclaim our freedom of choice; without awareness, there is no free choice."
Joy’s writing style was very socially driven and psychologically enlightening. She sheds objective light on the many perspectives that surrounds this complicated and diverse lifestyle and how it effects those around them, who perhaps have limited understanding of Veganism, or those who reject its ideology altogether. However, it is a very unique book because it does not only seek to relate to Vegans and Vegetarians but rather seeks to bridge in the gaps between them all, to offer lessons in communicating with people with different beliefs than your own. Therefore, it would seem a good book for Meat-eaters to read as well, especially if they have Vegan loved ones. As a longterm Vegetarian myself, I found this book very useful and had much to ponder on afterwards. This was indeed a good read and will be a definite reread for me. I would recommend this book to Vegans/Vegetarians who can feel overwhelmed in their lifestyle in a predominately carnivorous world.
[OFFICIAL RATING: 4.5 STARS]
January 2, 2020
Process is everything. People remember less of what was discussed and more how the discussion was handled. Even conflict, when handled with integrity, can have a positive impact on relationships, building trust and intimacy. Joy, while clearly advocating for a vegan lifestyle, is respectful of all and wishes that we all had the emotional awareness and communication tools to build bridges across belief systems. Her strategies include better understanding of the dynamics of different belief systems, conditions that block understanding and strategies to improve understanding, empathy, and respect.
Joy likens someone’s vegan awakening to waking up to the reality of the Matrix. Your innocence is lost and you can never look at the dinner table the same way again. Yet how do you explain what you now know to those still plugged into the Matrix while still protecting yourself from the trauma of your now heightened awareness? Add to that the burden of your lifestyle perceived as a threat to the dominant belief system with all its defense mechanisms and justifications.
Sanity is found by becoming more mindful. Being aware of when you’re emotionally flooded and no longer able to listen. Distinguishing between differences in value systems vs power dynamics in relationship. Being clear about your needs while also remembering that most people are in different places on the carnist to vegan spectrum. Empathizing and listening to understand the other’s perspective. Discussing, not debating since debates are always win-lose. Working towards win-win solutions that strengthen connection and honor what's most important to all parties. Asking others to become allies – working to better understand your perspectives and supporting you in public. Joy offers step-by-step tools for navigating difficult conversations. And when all else fails, Joy even provides thoughtful strategies for leaving relationships with compassion and integrity.
Joy likens someone’s vegan awakening to waking up to the reality of the Matrix. Your innocence is lost and you can never look at the dinner table the same way again. Yet how do you explain what you now know to those still plugged into the Matrix while still protecting yourself from the trauma of your now heightened awareness? Add to that the burden of your lifestyle perceived as a threat to the dominant belief system with all its defense mechanisms and justifications.
Sanity is found by becoming more mindful. Being aware of when you’re emotionally flooded and no longer able to listen. Distinguishing between differences in value systems vs power dynamics in relationship. Being clear about your needs while also remembering that most people are in different places on the carnist to vegan spectrum. Empathizing and listening to understand the other’s perspective. Discussing, not debating since debates are always win-lose. Working towards win-win solutions that strengthen connection and honor what's most important to all parties. Asking others to become allies – working to better understand your perspectives and supporting you in public. Joy offers step-by-step tools for navigating difficult conversations. And when all else fails, Joy even provides thoughtful strategies for leaving relationships with compassion and integrity.
June 13, 2019
I cherry picked chapters in this book. Most of them weren't relevant for me or didn't resonate.
Chapter 5 was excellent however, and worth reading for anyone, vegan or not. It effectively captured the "waking from the matrix" feeling that I felt when first becoming vegan, and had really interesting insights into the "carnism" culture that we were all brought up in and that invisibly surrounds and affects all of us.
It helped me to understand and describe many things I've been feeling and experiencing.
Chapter 5 was excellent however, and worth reading for anyone, vegan or not. It effectively captured the "waking from the matrix" feeling that I felt when first becoming vegan, and had really interesting insights into the "carnism" culture that we were all brought up in and that invisibly surrounds and affects all of us.
It helped me to understand and describe many things I've been feeling and experiencing.
September 3, 2020
This book didn't really talk to me. Maybe it's because I didn't like to work through a long texts about psychological theory and relationships. Maybe it is because I am just fine if my partner eats cheese while I'm around, this does not trigger any strong emotions. Maybe it's because Joy assumes that that the vegan partner strongly identifies with their veganism or has strong emotions associated with it, whereas for me, veganism is only a very small part of my lifestyle. This assumption might be true for many people, and I might recommend the book to those people.
February 25, 2019
It took me a while to get into it. I bought this book expecting it to be an attack on carnism and helping me create dialogue in vegan favor. Once I realized it was an unbiased apporach to veg/non veg relationships I was able to apply it to real life situations I have encountered both in veg/non veg relationships as well as romantic, friend and family encounters.
Read
November 15, 2019Meh. Felt like any kind of relationship advice book and the specifically vegan parts could have been condensed a lot more. dnf. Her ted talk is 10/10 amazing though and worth seeing
January 3, 2021
I really enjoyed this book. At times I felt it fell back a little bit on meat-eater arguments, perhaps in an attempt to appeal to meat-eaters, which I agree is a very important thing to do, but as a vegan there were a couple times where I went huh? I've heard that from a carnist? Like when she says vegans aren't perfect because they might have shoes made from child labor in China...as if buying one pair of shoes is the same as making a choice three times a day at meals, and like making a choice unknowingly is the same as someone knowing and still turning away. People always bring up the cell phone, etc. made in China argument to discredit veganism. And the other part where she says reductive thinking makes everything black and white and I totally agree, vegan allies are so important, and arguably more important than vegans themselves. Consuming vegan really isn't that much of an impact compared to what a non-vegan in a position of power can do. But that's not the issue with veg/nonveg relationships is it? It's your perception of the values and beliefs of the other person. What they care about. Not how much consequential good they're doing. You can want someone to be a part of your movement while still having differences that make it difficult to be in a personal relationship with them. And like at the end in the appendices essentially saying it's a "you respect me, I respect you"/personal choice situation when it's not, or saying we shouldn't judge others...I mean what does that even mean? Passing moral judgement on our own and others' actions is what allows us to advances as a society. But really this book is essentially about preserving relationships, so I understand why it has to be written that way.
Anyways I felt the need to air out why I gave a four instead of a five, but I also want to talk about why I gave a four rather than a one, two, or three. I really found a lot of use in this book not only as a vegan activist wanting to learn more about the psychological side, not only as someone with non-vegan friends, but also a self-help book in general. It made me really rethink how I interact with others. What traumas/insecurities am I bringing to an interaction? What trauma is the other person bringing? And learning about how much farther we can go if we assume the best of others. Even in writing this review, I regret in case Melanie Joy reads this that I have brought my trauma surrounding a non-vegan world to the forefront, which is why I was emotionally defensive and felt the need to write the negative part of my review first.
This perspective is sorely needed in the vegan community though. One quote I especially liked: "People who actively defy social conditioning that’s designed to increase empathy and decrease support for violence—simply to serve their own interests—exhibit a level of pathology that is simply not comparable to those who conform to social conditioning." Because we often compare our activism to that of other social justice movements, but ours is unique in this way, and we cannot hold the same expectations of people regarding awareness of carnism, as say, the patriarchy.
Anyways I felt the need to air out why I gave a four instead of a five, but I also want to talk about why I gave a four rather than a one, two, or three. I really found a lot of use in this book not only as a vegan activist wanting to learn more about the psychological side, not only as someone with non-vegan friends, but also a self-help book in general. It made me really rethink how I interact with others. What traumas/insecurities am I bringing to an interaction? What trauma is the other person bringing? And learning about how much farther we can go if we assume the best of others. Even in writing this review, I regret in case Melanie Joy reads this that I have brought my trauma surrounding a non-vegan world to the forefront, which is why I was emotionally defensive and felt the need to write the negative part of my review first.
This perspective is sorely needed in the vegan community though. One quote I especially liked: "People who actively defy social conditioning that’s designed to increase empathy and decrease support for violence—simply to serve their own interests—exhibit a level of pathology that is simply not comparable to those who conform to social conditioning." Because we often compare our activism to that of other social justice movements, but ours is unique in this way, and we cannot hold the same expectations of people regarding awareness of carnism, as say, the patriarchy.
February 2, 2022
Just finished the second reading of this game changer book whose main goal is to provide the skills to make our relationships healthier and our communications more effective.
"Beyond Beliefs" because the message is that often problems in relationships are 𝘣𝘦𝘺𝘰𝘯𝘥 differences, like ideology differences (or 𝘣𝘦𝘭𝘪𝘦𝘧𝘴): problems and conflicts usually arise because many people have never learned the basic principles and skills to create healthy relationships and, as a consequence, many “normal” ways of relating are dysfunctional and toxic.
Through this book, the author gives us the opportunity to fill the lack by discussing the principles of healthy relationships, and by providing us with the tools for transformation such as conflict management theory, and effective communication strategies.
Learning to relate and to communicate in a healthier way is useful to improve our relationships as well as our interactions, such as those that vegans have during activism and/or advocacy. For this reason I think that this is a must-read book for vegans: every time we communicate or behave in a way that is toxic - both toward non-vegans and towards other vegans - we reduce the power and the effectiveness of the vegan movement. Shaming and judging are the two most non-relational behaviors and, unfortunately, they represent a huge problem in the vegan movement. Empathy and curiosity are two of the main ingredients of the antidote recipe: the more we practice them, the less likely we are to judge and shame others.
Lack of relational literacy is not the only problem in a veg-nonveg relationship/interaction. Non-relational behaviours caused by the psychology of carnism and the psychology of reactive veganism are also discussed.
The book is also advised to non-vegans, both to have a better understanding of vegans (maybe they have a vegan in their life), and because, even if it is focused on vegan-nonvegan relationships, the relational literacy theory behind it applies to all kind of relationships (e.g. veg-veg, nonveg-nonveg, friendship, romantic relationships, family relationships).
As human beings, we have a fundamental desire to strive to become our best selves. I think that this book is a necessary stop along the road to self - and then social - improvement.
Thanks Melanie Joy for giving me all this precious "food for gowth" ❤
"Beyond Beliefs" because the message is that often problems in relationships are 𝘣𝘦𝘺𝘰𝘯𝘥 differences, like ideology differences (or 𝘣𝘦𝘭𝘪𝘦𝘧𝘴): problems and conflicts usually arise because many people have never learned the basic principles and skills to create healthy relationships and, as a consequence, many “normal” ways of relating are dysfunctional and toxic.
Through this book, the author gives us the opportunity to fill the lack by discussing the principles of healthy relationships, and by providing us with the tools for transformation such as conflict management theory, and effective communication strategies.
Learning to relate and to communicate in a healthier way is useful to improve our relationships as well as our interactions, such as those that vegans have during activism and/or advocacy. For this reason I think that this is a must-read book for vegans: every time we communicate or behave in a way that is toxic - both toward non-vegans and towards other vegans - we reduce the power and the effectiveness of the vegan movement. Shaming and judging are the two most non-relational behaviors and, unfortunately, they represent a huge problem in the vegan movement. Empathy and curiosity are two of the main ingredients of the antidote recipe: the more we practice them, the less likely we are to judge and shame others.
Lack of relational literacy is not the only problem in a veg-nonveg relationship/interaction. Non-relational behaviours caused by the psychology of carnism and the psychology of reactive veganism are also discussed.
The book is also advised to non-vegans, both to have a better understanding of vegans (maybe they have a vegan in their life), and because, even if it is focused on vegan-nonvegan relationships, the relational literacy theory behind it applies to all kind of relationships (e.g. veg-veg, nonveg-nonveg, friendship, romantic relationships, family relationships).
As human beings, we have a fundamental desire to strive to become our best selves. I think that this book is a necessary stop along the road to self - and then social - improvement.
Thanks Melanie Joy for giving me all this precious "food for gowth" ❤
August 12, 2020
A near perfect book about communicating wants, needs in a relationship tailored to vegans. I would argue that you could read this book for any selfhelp needs, wether you are a vegan or not , since the basics of relationship therapy etc remain the same.
Enjoyable read about getting your needs and wants met, how to react to constant mockery, insults, mansplains and educations from people who immediately start to attack you once they hear you are a V (without any expertise whatsoever) and how to live a veg/non veg relationship.
The things mentioned in this book are subject not only to vegans, but also to homosexual people, transsexual people, basically any minority group who live in a majority group that uses defense mechanisms to keep the major ideology in check. Yes, this book explains that perfectly, so instead of going on the offense in a post below, please read this work carefully.
Melanie Joy is no stranger to psychology and counseling, being a psychology professor herself, who specialises in relationship therapy and espescially in relationship therapy for veg/non veg couples, and wrote another book on the ruling ideology of carnism (which is a well substantiated term within philosophy) named: Why we love dogs, eat pigs and wear cows(a must read too).
Again, if youre not in a veg/non veg relation or are not a vegan, i would argue you could still benefit from this book. Youll learn basic psychotherapy concepts like narratives , schemas (schema therapy might sound familiar), how major ideologies work in a society and how minorities are mocked, insulted, seen as if their needs are less important than those of majority groups etc.
Maybe this book is less about veganism than you might think, its a book about healthy relationships and counseling, how to be a good listener etc.
Highly recommended.
Enjoyable read about getting your needs and wants met, how to react to constant mockery, insults, mansplains and educations from people who immediately start to attack you once they hear you are a V (without any expertise whatsoever) and how to live a veg/non veg relationship.
The things mentioned in this book are subject not only to vegans, but also to homosexual people, transsexual people, basically any minority group who live in a majority group that uses defense mechanisms to keep the major ideology in check. Yes, this book explains that perfectly, so instead of going on the offense in a post below, please read this work carefully.
Melanie Joy is no stranger to psychology and counseling, being a psychology professor herself, who specialises in relationship therapy and espescially in relationship therapy for veg/non veg couples, and wrote another book on the ruling ideology of carnism (which is a well substantiated term within philosophy) named: Why we love dogs, eat pigs and wear cows(a must read too).
Again, if youre not in a veg/non veg relation or are not a vegan, i would argue you could still benefit from this book. Youll learn basic psychotherapy concepts like narratives , schemas (schema therapy might sound familiar), how major ideologies work in a society and how minorities are mocked, insulted, seen as if their needs are less important than those of majority groups etc.
Maybe this book is less about veganism than you might think, its a book about healthy relationships and counseling, how to be a good listener etc.
Highly recommended.
January 8, 2023
A fantastic guide to bridging the gap that sometimes feels too wide between those who have chosen the vegan lifestyle and those who follow carnism. She gives many techniques on how to communicate and make it so that each party understand where the other is coming from and both communicate with compassion and empathy instead of judgment and criticism. It's difficult to choose and life a lifestyle that places a person in the minority, which being a vegan does. Those who choose this path usually have seen and learned too much about how and where our animal products and flesh foods come from to feel good about supporting this industry. The cruelty and needless suffering prevalent in animal agriculture is difficult to turn a blind eye to once a person has learned the truth. It's this knowledge that makes it so difficult to communicate with those who either don't know or don't care to know where their food comes from and the impact it has on the earth and the environment, humanity's future. This book has valuable information to help both sides communicate and understand each other.
Favorite Line ~ "Every interaction is an opportunity to practice integrity."
Favorite Line ~ "Every interaction is an opportunity to practice integrity."
November 29, 2021
Reading this book a few years ago really took a huge weight off my shoulders as a relatively new vegan. After I went vegan, it seemed unbelievable that very compassionate, ethical friends and family members could talk with me about the reasons why I'd made the decision and then still carry on eating animals. Sometimes I'd think, If I can't persuade them to make this change, how will I ever make a difference that's bigger than myself? Beyond Beliefs really helped me understand how to communicate more effectively with the people closest to me – and showed me that I can still be a highly effective advocate for veganism without "converting" everyone. If you're struggling with your relationships with nonvegan loved ones – or if you just want a great intro to having healthier relationships in general – check out this book.
July 14, 2020
An insightful read on relationships, romantic, familial, and platonic. At its heart the challenge is to value you and your counterpart's agency while ensuring respect and effort put into the relationship is mutual. With perseverance two can nurture a loving connection even if their world views (i.e. religious/political/ethical stances) vary fairly significantly.
Rather than ending the book with how to break up, I wish she would have had an extended examination of what a successful, evolving relationship looks like.
Rather than ending the book with how to break up, I wish she would have had an extended examination of what a successful, evolving relationship looks like.
November 15, 2021
The opening chapter really resonated with me, it I’d exactly how I feel sat around a table with my parents & sister.
The book is very concisely and expertly written but I feel it’s more of a relationship tool than a vegan communication tool - which was what I had expected it to be.
Whilst I am sure the advice would be very useful, it’s very American- therapy stylee I guess - whilst I found the letter to a non vegan very powerful, If I sent that to my family they’d think I’d really lost the plot
The book is very concisely and expertly written but I feel it’s more of a relationship tool than a vegan communication tool - which was what I had expected it to be.
Whilst I am sure the advice would be very useful, it’s very American- therapy stylee I guess - whilst I found the letter to a non vegan very powerful, If I sent that to my family they’d think I’d really lost the plot
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