The Place Where They Cried

by Rose Christo

Spring of 1860: The Pony Express at Williams Station abducts and abuses two small Indian girls. The chiefs of the girls' respective tribes unite in search of revenge.

Gives Grain, coy and enigmatic, professes shamanic prowess. Middle Road Maker, reserved and stern, struggles to understand his warrior mother's legacy. From wildly different cultures, these antipodal men have nothing in common--except their inability to keep the other at arm's length. From strangers to allies to lovers, their actions are what trigger the metamorphosis of America's landscape.

Based on the true story of the Pony Express War.

Genres: Historical, M M Romance, Historical Fiction, LGBT, Romance, Native American, Fiction

977 pages, Kindle Edition

First published January 11, 2013

Reviews

[Baba]

The Place Where They Cried contains 977 pages. DNF after having read 469 pages or 48 %. I will refrain from rating the book. Review posted January 1, 2013

"Hear me," I said. "We will not pander to your demands. You are not our leaders. You do not have authority over us. This country is our country. This country has been our home for hundreds of thousands of years. You came to our home to live with us; and we accept that. And we respect it. And now you will respect us, too."

Paiute means Water People.

"From the sea emerged the earth," said the Wise Woman, her weak voice carrying through the cold air. The desert is so fickle; hot as the heart of the sun, but only so long as the sun stands in the sky. "And from the earth emerged all the creatures that lived on it. All but one. We Water People did not come from the earth. We came from the sea itself. And so observe it; in everything you do, in every struggle you face, you must be as resilient as the water from which you were born."

(…)Without his facade I might not have noticed how golden his skin looked when the sun reached for it, scars and all. How very much his hair on the wind resembled a river of blood. He made me think of the lifeblood that pulses beneath the planet's surface. The earth has a heartbeat of its own. He, in my eyes, was that heartbeat.
"I think," Gives Grain said, "you are in love with me."

Expectations suck big time.
Rose Christo's magical Gives Light really blew me away, and when I started reading The Place Where They Cried I was expecting another fantastic story. I feel totally bummed that after struggling through 469 pages I had to abandon the book because I just didn't feel "it". Also, quite often I had a hard time to distinguish between the two main protagonists' voices. On the other hand, I might take the blame because I couldn't focus on the story. What irritated me as well were the very, very generously used exclamation marks and semicolons. And I honestly don't get it why this book required almost 1000 pages. It was so incredibly loooong-winded.

I hit rough patches all the time and during a majority of the story I felt totally bored. Sure, I experienced some very beautiful moments where the author's talent really shone through…

There were very few matters over which I retained cognizance. The subtle chill rising like fog from the iced cavern floor. The sound the waterfalls made outside when they crashed into the lake. The shape of Gives Grain's mouth on mine, small and round, a budding prairie flower. The smell of him, like distant sea salts; the taste of him, like fresh rain and kindness. He tasted like kindness. If you were there to see what I saw--the blacks of his eyes like the wet tide at night, his eyes sliding closed in surrender--to feel what I felt--his eyelashes like feathers on my cheeks, his reddened lips stealing my strength away with a heartfelt apology--you would have been powerless to prevent yourself from thinking the same.

...but overall it pains me very much to admit that the story and its characters couldn't hold my interest. It was some kind of a lackluster read for me. Besides, I just felt that reading another rough 500 pages only to end up depressed wasn't worth it ultimately. *sad face*



Looking at the high average rating, this must be another case of it's me and not the book. In fact, it's not a bad book by any means, but it wasn't my cup of tea. Read it. I really hope you'll enjoy it more than I did.

http://baba.booklikes.com

[LenaLena · Rating 5 out of 5]

Disclaimer: Author Rose Christo may not be Native American herself, as she has claimed. 
-------------------------------------------------------------------

4.5 Stars

The love story between Gives Grain and Middle Road Maker is one of the most romantic I have ever read. But I am going to have to tell you right off the bat that this is not a Romance, because I am pretty sure that if I let people believe that I would be buried in hate mail. What this story does is make you fall in love with these two men and then it rips your heart out. Multiple times.

Know that this is a historical novel, set it in the American West in the mid to late 1800s. The story is told in alternating POV chapters between Gives Grain, a Paiute shaman and Middle Road Maker, a Shoshone chief. If you have any knowledge of American history you already know this story isn’t going to end with these two men blissfully sharing a tipi, untroubled by the rest of the world. And the title is a dead giveaway too. I would have been perfectly fine if the story had ended about 45% in, when the men are together and the Pony Express War seems to be over. I would have willfully ignored the facts of history to have them ride off into the sunset together. Instead there is carnage. O my god, the carnage. If it wasn’t for those same facts of history I would have accused the author of overdoing it. How many massacres does one book really need, right? As many as there actually were, obviously. And that makes this a 762 page book, taking us from the Pony Express War through Wounded Knee.

But in between there is so much more. First of all the connection between the two men, which is palpable. The connection with their family, the different tribes, their stories and the land. It’s about the ways the different tribes come together in the face of adversity, their different customs and backgrounds, the frictions and the joys. There are so many wonderful secondary characters in this book that are so fleshed out that, despite the fact that there are dozens of them, I had no trouble keeping them apart. This story is as much their story as it is Gives Grain’s and Middle Road Maker’s. The two main characters have distinctly different voices and different views, but complement each other so well it’s no wonder they need each other like they do.

I have purposely waited a day or two to write this paragraph. I was curious to see how the book would live on in my mind after I’d finished it. What would stick with me, the anger, the sadness, or the joy? I was afraid that the lingering impression would be one of silent horror, but I am glad to say that it is not. While I am sure certain haunting mental images will keep popping up in my head from time to time, and my knowledge of the bloody history of the US is now a lot more visceral than it was, what is staying with me most strongly is a pervasive sense of beauty and love. (It probably helped that I went back and reread some of the early parts of the book). I think it is an amazing feat that Ms Christo managed to infuse this blood soaked historic tale with so much love that that is what touches the reader most in the end.

There are a few instances where things are a bit repetitive, where the reader gets things explained that have already been explained. And as long as the book is, a little tighter content editing would not have gone amiss there. Apart from that, the writing is top notch and there are no other editing issues. I always appreciate it when self-published authors take pride in their work that way. And for $2.99 all her books are a steal.

If you’ve never read anything by Christo before, though, I don’t think this is the best one to start with, just in case it would scare you off the rest of her work and that would be a pity. Maybe try Gives Light first. I also have a better appreciation now for the very light-hearted approach she took with White Buffalo Calf Warriors after writing The Place Where They Cried. As great a read as it is, it is not for the faint of heart. I can’t even imagine what it must have been like to write it.

[Trisha Harrington · Rating 5 out of 5]

I know this book won't be for everyone, but it's definitely something you should at least consider. Damn, how the hell could it end like that!

[Jenni · Rating 5 out of 5]

It’s been four days since I finished The Place Where They Cried and I’m still at a loss for what to say. How do I properly explain this book? How can I compel you to read it, looking beyond its length and the inevitable sadness you’ll feel when it’s over?

The thing is, I can’t, but you need to read this book. It will break your heart, but forget that and hold onto these words: it will bring you joy, it will help you remember.

*****

I don’t know about where you’re from, but primary and secondary school in Texas back in my day was heavy on Native American history. Back then we called them Indians, and I recall them being negatively portrayed (for the most part) as savages who killed and stole from early settlers. Having read several of Rose Christo’s books now, and doing my own research, it breaks my heart and shames me deeply to understand I had it all wrong.

They Place Where They Cried is a sweeping, beautiful and even cautionary story about some of the most gentle and simple human beings who may have ever walked our lands.

They believed nothing was theirs—they respected land, animal, man...earth for all it gave them. They had rich, meaningful stories about everything from how the planet was formed, to how the stars got in the sky, to how water filled the oceans.

They took only what they needed, no more, and they were thankful, always. And then the settlers came and stole what was never theirs. The settlers killed entire native families for no reason, they forced these natives into a most pitiful and miserable existence, and it was tragic.

But I’m not talking much about the story and characters. Based on actual people and events, The Place Where They Cried is a story about two young boys’ trials and tribulations of living through the events I mention above. From different tribes, Middle Road Maker, a Shoshone, and Gives Grain, a Paiute, grow up to become the leaders (and shaman in the case of Gives Grain) of their respective groups.

When their tribes mesh permanently, the now-men discover and explore a mutual desire and eventual love for one another. For me personally, it was beautiful to read about a culture where homosexuality wasn't wrong. Love was love to these people, and to take a husband was as normal and acceptable as taking a wife.

“Have you ever noticed that all the world exists in pairs? Without the darkness how would we know what light is? Without the sun, how could there ever be a moon? Where would the Coyote be without his dour Wolf? So, too, are our hearts in pairs. We don’t really live a full life until we've found the other half of our heart.”

Told from the alternating points-of-view of Middle Road Maker and Gives Grain, the story is rich with secondary characters—from their children, to their parents and siblings, to member of other tribes.

Their story spans nearly 40 years and highlights actual battles with white settlers; of course this is where the above heartbreak comes into play. We all know how the story ends, and that makes it so, so difficult, because as you read this epic tale, you can’t help but fall in love with each and every character.

Rose Christo writes some of the most stunning, breathtaking, perfect words I've ever laid eyes on. Please read this book. Let the words take you. Don’t be afraid of having your heart broken (it will be). Think instead about what you’ll learn about these people, about how my ancestors took it all away from them in an instant, and how the Native Americans live on still. Fall in love with Christo’s words and learn something about yourself and humanity in the process. You’ll be a better person for the experience, I promise.

“Do you know what we call it in Cheyenne? When they make us leave our homes so they can keep them for themselves? The Place Where They Cried.”

[Linda ~ they got the mustard out! ~ · Rating 4 out of 5]

DNF around 40% (I think)

I remember this book pretty well, though it took me many months between 2013 and 2014 to reach the point where I quit it. DNFing had nothing to do with the writing or the characters, I liked both just fine, and it really was fascinating seeing a Native American POV of the Pony Express wars, since anything you'd find online would be heavily slanted toward the white pioneers and settlers and thus far less likely to be honest about the atrocities committed in the name of so-called Manifest Destiny. Unfortunately, the level of violence was beyond what I was capable of dealing with then (and certainly more so now), and I would have to put the book down for several months at a time after each instance of war, rape or other such violence graphically and unflinchingly described. At one point, it just got to be too much and I returned my loan to Amazon.

Of course now, after all the controversy around the author's supposed real identity, (she may or may not actually be Native American as she claimed when she still had an author profile here), it's hard to recommend anything that she's written, which is a shame, since her stuff involving Native American characters did seem better researched than what little I've read or heard of her other stuff. It certainly tracks with things I've since learned from various other sources since, though not in relation to this particular conflict.

So at this point, I would say to seek out research from the First Nations Peoples involved in the Pony Express war if you want to read up more on that and learn about it from a perspective that isn't biased toward westward expansion. I'm just not sure where you'd go to find such things, sadly.

[Zeh · Rating 4 out of 5]

This is a compelling retell of the struggles that took place during the American Indian Wars, particularly between the Paiute and Shoshone tribes. The time span of the book is at least 10 years. The rape and violence that occurred are a part of wars and it was unavoidable, so sometimes deaths (and rape) visited upon some of the most beloved characters.

The most beautiful thing about this book is the relationships: Between Middle Road and his mothers and brother, Middle Road and his child--Little Fox Girl (renamed later as Forgiver), and especially between Middle Road and his lover (and later husband), Gives Grain.

The book alternate between the views of the two main characters, Gives Grain and Middle Road. And I'm glad that there are no overlaps between those two views. Where Gives Grain left off at the end of his chapter is immediately picked up by Middle Road at the start of his chapter. We truly get to invest in how these two characters act and feels.

The most compelling character for me in this book is Gives Grain. He is an enigma with two souls. I loved him in the first half of the book because he was truly free and uncorrupted by deaths and murders then. His spirit was more ingrained and he embraced his visions and talent without restrain. Later on, though, after being a part of the war, he begins to question himself as well as his talent.

The love between Middle Road and Gives Grain is undeniable. It is beautiful and unrestrained, like two parts of the same coin. Each is the others' first in everything. Gives Grain, who grew up as an orphan knows not the love of a family was taught and bestowed to it by his husband.

The ending did have me tear up a little bit and I felt like I just went on a long walk with rough terrain. I highly recommend this book if you enjoy a bit of history and do not mind character deaths.

[Jax · Rating 4 out of 5]

This is a story that stays with you. Completely haunting. If the title isn't enough of a clue that you're in for a sad tale, the fact that we're getting the Native American perspective on events from 1860 to 1890 should give you an idea what you're in for. This is the period of the Pony Express War, the Bear River Massacre, Little Big Horn, and Wounded Knee (among many others). Yeah, "sad" doesn't really cut it.

But it's not all doom and gloom. This is a fascinating look at the life of native people of the time, particularly the Shoshone and Paiute which are the tribes headed by Middle Road Maker and Gives Grain. The way they live in perfect harmony with nature, traveling from place to place according to the season, using what they need without doing permanent harm, is a beautiful lesson to us even today. And for the most part we are able to share the ever-hopeful outlook of sweet, nurturing Gives Grain.

When conflict with the encroaching white people begins, these are very reluctant warriors, taking action only to avenge horrible wrongs and to protect their people and way of life. The white man's total misunderstanding and lack of respect for these people and their ways is shameful and leads to tragic events that will forever be a black mark on our country. This is an eye-opener for anyone who only knows this period from skimming a text book. This is the human story behind the names and dates.

And of course, in the midst of all this, we get the love story. Not only between the two men, which is lovely, but also with their little family of step mother, step brother and adopted orphan children. And then there are the many tribe members we get to know too. We care deeply for these people we've come to know so well over the course of this very long book, so their fates are very powerful and heartbreaking. But so worth reading about.

My only niggle has to do with the use of some modern language and the possible bending of some facts to fit this fictional account. It was frustrating not knowing which facts were altered (from what I could find online) because the native view is different than the white man's or when it was just a matter of artistic license to tell the story. In any event, it seemed like less time had passed in the book than the 30 year span between the first and last real-life event covered. And some well known figures were not at events they are in the book, or did not die in the way they did in the book. (BTW, you'll want to read more about the people, places, and events mentioned as you read so keep a resource handy!)

And I know writers often forgo period speak to make the book more readable, but I was jarred by the use of words like 'weird', 'wow' and referring to something as being a 'drag'.

But these were little things. I recommend you give this a try if you're interested in this period in our history.

[Aviva · Rating 5 out of 5]

My feelings are raw. It was beautiful and it was painful. It was mostly unfair and the damages done to these tribes and their cultures are irrevocable. I feel angry and I don't think I ever cried so much during and after reading a story.

[Onyx · Rating 5 out of 5]

The Place Where They Cried is astounding. It is a painfully, heart-achingly beautiful book. It took my breath away. Though long, it never dragged - in the capable hands of Rose Christo, I was transported to an era of history that has been misrepresented and largely ignored in American history: the perspectives of the indigenous populations during America’s western expansion. This book… it will make you laugh. But it will also make you weep. And it will make you look at the world in a different way.

Gives Grain and Middle Road Maker are two men whose struggles and eventual relationship is set against the escalating conflicts between Americans on frontier and the Native tribes during the era of the Pony Express, Gold Rush, and Oregon Trail. Told through alternating POV chapters, this story chronicles forty years of their lives, and all the joy and strife therein.

Christo takes this era and paints a glorious landscape in the mind’s eye. The way the setting comes alive is so wonderful. Numerous times Christo’s writing talent made me stop and say “Wow,” like when Middle Road Maker sees Gives Grain dance with fire, or when the tribe returns to the ocean after an arduous trek; when Gives Grain spins a tale for the children, or shares the Paiute legends of the origins of universe. The love and family and loyalty to the tribe was beautiful.

"Sometimes I think we need to hold onto each other like this, or else we would come apart at the seams."

Generally I prefer bittersweet and sad stories, because I find them more affecting and more real than the happy ones. But at the end of the day, they’re fiction. The Place Where They Cried, in many respects, is not. The events in this book are not made up. These characters were based on real people. Before I started, I didn’t anticipate this book to be more historical than fiction. The ending was clear, given the present reality of Native Americans today; but there’s something especially poignant in knowing that these people existed. So, be warned.

I believe it’s impossible to read this book and not be inspired to learn more about Native American cultures, which is one of the many takeaways. I think the worst thing we can do - as Americans - is forget and ignore our history.

But everyone who reads this will remember Chiefs Pocatello and Numaga, and the wars they fought to survive.

"Stonemother Lake was supposed to be beautiful at night. But on that night I became numbed to its beauty. I saw no beauty. I only saw the place where they cried."

[Aimee ~is busy sleeping~ · Rating 4 out of 5]

There is no doubt that this is one of the most romantic stories I've ever come across. It's beautifully told, and long, so you watch them grow up and change over several years. Coy, red-haired Gives Grain and hardened Middle Road Maker have carved a place inside my heart. And this is why I am DNF-ing for now. I'd like to let them live undisturbed together in my head for a little longer, knowing what more is in store for them. This book covers roughly 30 years from the Native American perspective, encompassing the Pony Express War and all the carnage and massacres that continued to follow and plague them. If all your knowledge only came from the measly couple paragraphs from your history textbook, this will be an awakening for you. But the love, the characters, and the culture just leaps off these pages.


And if you're not already familiar with Rose Christo's writings, I wholeheartedly encourage you to start with her Gives Light series so you can experience falling in love with her characters yourself.

***
Finished. Someday I'll try to write a proper review for this, right now my heart just feels broken. I became sort of numb in the last few pages. If you're feeling brave today, I would urge you to read this. It's painful, oh it is, tears were streaming down my face in the end. This is a part of history that has been much buried and overlooked. But what I choose to take away from this is the sheer LOVE between Gives Grain and Middle Road Maker, between them and their extended adopted family over the years, Little Light, Red Clay, Forgiver, Lost Woman...so many more that all came alive for me and who I grew to know so incredibly well. Love, laughter, joy, terror, grief, hope, family...I felt as I had experienced everything alongside them.

[Idamus · Rating 4 out of 5]

I knew the basic history behind this, still, bawling my eyes out right now. So much slaughter and pain, all because of greed

[Joyfully Jay · Rating 5 out of 5]

A Joyfully Jay review.

5 stars

The Place Where They Cried is a beautiful and important piece of fiction written about the heritage of several tribes of First Nations’ people. The author, Rose Christo, has written some amazing novels, but The Place Where They Cried is my particular favorite. Favorite is an odd word to use because there is no happy ending to this book. If you have even a basic history of the American West then the systematic destruction and attempted genocide of the First Nations tribes should be familiar. But Christo tells an absolutely heartbreaking story through lyrical and engaging prose. From the first page, I was draw in and captivated. This isn’t a book you just set down. Rather you are drawn ever deeper with each page and the plot is devoured rather savored. This is an extremely long novel, over 700 pages, and it is epic in its scale and intent, but I was so engaged that I never even noticed the length. The story is so powerful and the characters so amazing, that that time was rather irrelevant.

Read Sue’s review in its entirety here.

[Stefan Erasmus · Rating 5 out of 5]

hands down the most heart breaking (and longest!) story I've ever read. through all the heart breaks and tears this is one of he best I've ever read, but definitely not for the faint hearted. one reader commented that Rose only fills your heart with warmth after she's broken it over and over, LOL and now I.see why! great detailed story for anyone who likes to sink their teeth into a big book. what happened to those tribes... it really breaks my heart. I can't imagine what it must have felt like and I can't even begin to imagine all the trials and tribulations Rose must have gone through to get it on paper. thank you for sharing this with your readers. five stars x x x x x

[Icesumly · Rating 5 out of 5]

One of the saddest, but most beautiful books I've read.

[Rena · Rating 5 out of 5]

Me reading this book:


This is probably the most memorable and saddest historical I've read ever. The love story between Middle Road Maker and Gives Grain was beautiful, but so was their relationship with their families and friends. There was never a dull moment even in parts where the characters were just going on with their daily lives, because I could feel the happiness and kinship they all shared. I liked the contrasting of Paiute and Shoshone cultures in the beginning. It really makes you appreciate how Middle Road and Gives Grain strengthen each other in every possible way when they eventually got together.

I wish I'd stopped at the 50% mark; the rest of it was just death and destruction. Christo didn't shy away from the atrocities committed by the settlers and US military against the Native Americans. Even if she took liberties with some of the real life events and people, you can't deny that the natives suffered horribly.

In a few days I will probably remember all the happy moments in this book, the profound messages of what is it to be a family, to love, to be loved, and to be truly free (not whatever brand of "freedom" modern day US is trying to sell me). But right now my heart is in pieces and I'm going to be depressed forever.

[Sara Schultz · Rating 5 out of 5]

The place where they cried turned out to be The book to which I cried. And cried. And cried. And just didn't stop.
I don't think I've ever been this affected by anything I've read. It's so so very painful. So relatable. So horrifying. So loving. So exhausting.
I knew it would be before I even opened it. I sat holding the book and my entire body was screaming at me not to open it. I'm glad I did. But I'm not sure I'll be able to bring myself to ever read it again...
Who do I think I'm kidding? Of cause I'll read it again. And I will cry. Again.

[Soledad P · Rating 5 out of 5]

Este libro partió mi corazón.

Primero que nada, creo que etiquetarlo bajo el tag de gay u homoerótico le quita gran parte del público que DEBERÍA leerlo. Porque si, es un libro en donde se presenta una relación homosexual, pero está tan bien contada y tamizada, sin nada explícito y todo narrado de una manera tan sutil y exquisita que de verdad no es lo esencial en la historia.

Segundo, este libro, como latinoamericana que soy, me llega de maneras indecibles. Todos los que conocemos algo de historia sabemos cómo sufrieron los pueblos originarios de América con la llegada de los europeos, y sólo por haber vivido ese trauma, compartimos la misma historia y memoria, ya seas del norte, del centro o del sur.Por eso creo que leerlo ayudará a comprender la magnitud de lo que pasó y una vez alcanzado ese nivel de empatía y conexión, las heridas pueden cicatrizar (pero claro, la cicatriz queda).

No se mucho de los pueblos indígenas de norteamérica, así que aprendí mucho al leer la historia de Middle Road Maker y Gives Grain. El lenguaje utilizado por Rose Christo es exquisito, toca la fibra sensible hasta del más duro y emociona darse cuenta cuánta violencia e ignorancia se vivieron en esos primeros encuentros. Pero somos humanos y no todo es destrucción, también hay creación, amor, y todo eso queda reflejado en las relaciones de los dos protagonistas con su familia. Esa ambivalencia humana queda tan bien descrita en el libro que es casi poético.

De verdad se los recomiendo. Es largo, si, y a veces se hace algo monótono porque el ritmo se repite una y otra vez entre periodos de paz y de guerra, pero diablos, así era la vida en esos momentos, la rutina se paseaba entre esos dos ámbitos, por crudo que parezca, así que por decirlo así, vivimos la rutina de los personajes.

Eso, léalo, ámelo y reflexione.

[Tiina · Rating 5 out of 5]

Heartbreakingly beautiful. Devastatingly sad.

[coco's reading · Rating 5 out of 5]

My heart's gone. I think I cried it all out.

[Juri D · Rating 4 out of 5]

I've only finished 75% of the book and I refused to read more. It's heartbreaking. You sort of know how it ends.

You can't make me finish this D:

[V · Rating 5 out of 5]

perfect.