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One Corpse Too Many
Gundula, yay, this will be fun. We welcome all others who want to join us!
I am only in chapter two so far. I had computer and Ipod problems yesterday so I could never listen. The narrator is Johanna Ward. I personally have no complaints at all with this narration. I am loving it. Others like Tull or Stephen Thorne.
I agree that this is an essential book since it both introduces Hugh Beringar and explains the basics behind the Civil War. Not only is the history clear, the depiction of the abbey and the monks marvelous, but I already am curious to know who the novice really is. No murder has yet even taken place, other than those killed by King Stephen in a battle for Shrewsbury.
I love Brother Cadfael. He just said: "What you do and what you are is what matters." I also love the life at the abbey.
Chrissie wrote: "I am only in chapter two so far. I had computer and Ipod problems yesterday so I could never listen. The narrator is Johanna Ward. I personally have no complaints at all with this narration. I am..."
You really do need to know the second book in order to understand the rest of the series (while I think you can do without having read A Morbid Taste for Bones, if you intend to read the rest of the Cadfael series, you cannot do without One Corpse Too Many.
Some Mediaeval mystery writers, such as Susanna Gregory (author of the Matthew Bartholomew series, another of my favourites, but not on par with Ellis Peters, because, in my opinion, there are/were none better) use historical notes at the back of each of the stories to further explain historical background. But Ellis Peters does not do this, and really does not need to do this either, for she more than adequately describes the historical background within the text proper (and without it sounding stale, tacked on, or textbook-like).
Yes, yes , yes to you statement about Ellis Peters: "...she more than adequately describes the historical background within the text proper (and without it sounding stale, tacked on, or textbook-like."Gundula, I wish I had begun with this book! It is exciting and is showing who is on which side (between Stephen and Maude)....although I have a strong suspicion that one has to wait to the end to see how the dice falls. I have felt in the other books disapproval/displeasure toward Prescott but now I am getting meat on the bone, substance that explains why people feel toward him as they do in the later books. It is important so see how the characters develop. You need the events that have lead up to how one should view them.
In some instances I know what is going to happen because I have read the other books, which is a bit of a shame. I am referring to Hugh Beringer and his future wife. I love seeing how Beringer's actions can be seen from different perspectives. He is very perceptive and he has a sense of humor. BUT, when he is first presented .......(view spoiler)
I have listened to two of six discs. I am in chapter four. I am already nervous about it ending too fast.
Another thing I like a lot is that King Stephen is drawn as a mix of good an bad. He too wants to know who the 95th corpse is. W now have the name, but who killed him?! I LIKE that he too wants this man not to be clumped with the others who were in the siege against him. Each character has faults and good qualities. Good stuff!
Of course I love Cadfael.
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Here are two general questions that I have been wondering about so far:
What are the basic belief differences between Benedictine and Franciscan monks?
Other than Empress Maude and King Stephen, which of the other characters really existed?
Chrissie wrote: "Yes, yes , yes to you statement about Ellis Peters: "...she more than adequately describes the historical background within the text proper (and without it sounding stale, tacked on, or textbook-l..."It's hard to respond about Prestcote without giving anything away, but he is very much for Stephen and is not willing or able to bend (unlike Hugh, who sees both sides and is often able to be both commiserate and fair, even to those on the opposite side of the conflict).
I had better stop because otherwise I will be giving away far too many spoilers, especially about Stephen.
About the difference between the Benedictine and the Franciscans, I am by no means an expert, but here goes (and this is just what I remember, you might want to do additional research on wikipedia)
1. Franciscans have taken a major vow of poverty, and much of their work was/is tending the sick, the poor etc. (I think)
2. I also always thought that Franciscans were called friars and not monks, but I am not sure of that
3. The Benedictines are considered more of a contemplative order, based primarily on prayer, meditation and the like
About the other characters who really existed, I am sure that Maud (or Mathilda's) half brother Robert of Gloucester really existed (I am not sure wether Gilbert Prestcote really existed, I would have to check that, but Ranulf of Chester is a historical figure). That is actually one thing I like about the Matthew Bartholomew books by Susanna Gregory, she always lists the names of people who really existed (but does explain that for some if not many of them, she is basically just using the name and then creating the characters which also happens because often only the names are known). So to make a long answer short (too late, I know), I am not really sure who is historical and who is not.
I know what you are saying about Hugh. I think I read Monk's Hood and St. Peter's Fair before I read One Corpse Too Many, so I kind of knew that Hugh was to trusted, that he and Aline would get together and that the murderer would be someone else (I also correctly suspected who was the murderer, but I will not divulge any more, just that I found the person unpleasant and too eager to please the king).
Gundula I very much appreciate your explanation about Benedictine versus Franciscan beliefs.Concerning the difference between monks and friars, I found this on Wiki: "The term monk is generic and in some religious or philosophical traditions it therefore may be considered interchangeable with other terms such as ascetic. However, being generic, it is not interchangeable with terms that denote particular kinds of monk, such as friar, cenobite, hermit, anchorite, hesychast, solitary."
Thus the term monk is a larger, more inclusive term than friar.
I also found this that supposedly distinguishes between monks and friars:
"Friars differ from monks in that they are called to live the evangelical counsels (vows of poverty, chastity and obedience) in service to a community, rather than through cloistered asceticism and devotion. Whereas monks live in a self-sufficient community, friars work among laypeople and are supported by donations or other charitable support.[1] A monk or nun makes their vows and commits to a particular community in a particular place. Friars commit to a community spread across a wider geographical area known as a province, and so they will typically move around, spending time in different houses of the community within his province."
This I found less clear, but maybe you understand this better than I.
OK, Robert of Gloucester and Ranulf of Chester are real. My problem is that since I am listening, I am unsure of the spellings. I appreciate what you have explained.
BTW, how do you spell Aline's last name?
I would also appreciate the spellings of the three who support Maude that sound something like:
"William Fitzallen", "Folk Adonay" and his daughter. Can you guess who I mean from my weird spellings? Also, how do you spell "Edric and Petronilla Fletcher"(the governess)? That is one thing that is really bad with audiobooks, but otherwise I love them!
One more thing, I do not know who the murderer is yet, but I lOVE how Ellis peters summarizes what is known as one proceeds through the story.
Ok, I found another short list about who in the entire series is historical (and it looks like Prestcote is not historical). It is a goodly list from wikipedia (but it also warns that it is not complete).King Stephen
Empress Maud
King Henry 1 of England (the deaths of his sons in a shipwreck basically set the stage for the civil war)
Robert of Gloucester and his son Philip
Geoffrey de Mandeville
Robert of Leicester
Owen Gwynedd, and his son Hywel
Cadwaladr ap Gruffydd (Owen's brother)
Wiliam of Ypres
Bishop Henry of Blois
Bishop Roger de Clinton
Abbot Heribert
Abbot Radolfus
Prior Robert Pennant
Robert 1, Duke of Normandy (he never appears in the series itself, but is mentioned because Cadfael was a man at arms in Robert 1 of Normandy's army during the Crusades)
You spell Aline's last name SIWARD (don't know how it's pronounced though)
I think the differences between friars and monks are pretty well how Wikipedia has described them. And the fact that Franciscan and Dominican friars worked mostly amongst the people and did not cloister themselves as much as the more prayer and meditation oriented Benedictines is likley also one of the reasons more friars succumbed to the Black Death than cloistered monks (although both groups faced massive mortality rates, like most of Europe, for many of the friars, in some cities, the mortality rate was sometimes approaching close to 100%).
William FitzAlan
Fulke Adeney
Godith Adeney
I think you spelled Edric's and Petronilla's names correctly
But I am not at all surprised that you have trouble with some of the spellings (with some of these names, what you hear is likely not how they are spelled).
Well, I wasn't so far off with the spellings that they were undecipherable! :0) Thank you. Interesting about the numbers that died from the Black Death. That is two centuries ahead in time from this!Hmmm, I am wondering what is going on about that metal piece found in the hay where the murderer fought with Torald, and that Aline's brother, Giles, had a buckle and metal piece on his cloak. Something fishy is going on maybe...... but I don't get it yet. I like how we are supposed to be so suspicious of Beringer. That is a red herring I believe. I must be soon done with the third CD.
The narration is superb. I was told that Johanna Ward is the same person as Kate Reading. No complaints on that front.
Gundula, yesterday we had a computer expert here and he TOTALLY messed up my Ipod. Per has spent all day getting it to function again. Boy was I happy that I had this on CDs and was using my CD player. He has totally messed up my Itunes too. And he is an expert. Never am I letting him get near my Ipod again. Also I still have computer crashes but they are a little less frequent. I swear all these new gadgets are too complicated. Today it has been heaven escaping into Peters' world so I could forget reality.
Chrissie wrote: "Well, I wasn't so far off with the spellings that they were undecipherable! :0) Thank you. Interesting about the numbers that died from the Black Death. That is two centuries ahead in time from thi..."Something fishy is definitely going on, but I won't spill the beans unless you want me to spill some. I know we are supposed to be suspicious of Hugh, but it's kind of hard since both you and also I read other books where Hugh was/is Cadfael's friend prior to One Corpse Too Many. I will say this though, I started to get suspicious about one character who at least in the beginning seems rather too good to be true, and I was right (think of St. Peter's Fair a bit).
Computer experts don't always know what they are doing or rather they are often so much of an expert that they make things impossible for us mortals who do not live and breathe technology. Hope you can get your ipod and itunes fixed soon.
Definitely, the new gadgets are too complicated, but if we complain, we are considered dinosaurs, sigh (it sure was easier without all of this technology, on the other hand, without the internet, there would be no booksite for us to chat).
Well I am thinking about that other guy (view spoiler) We will see if my guess/hunch is right.Yeah, I cannot imagine living without either my Ipod or computer, but they sure cause lots of problems. Per fixed the Ipod, but Itunes has somehow lost more than half of all my books. It cannot find them. It doesn't really matter since they are all at Audible too. All that remains at Itunes are the pretty covers, but nothing inside!
I have completed CD 3 of 6, about half I guess. I already have an idea of who is the murderer so I am quite proud of myself. I could be all wrong.
Chrissie wrote: "Well I am thinking about that other guy that was enchanted with Aline..... He was on watch then, and a dagger was stolen. I cannot be suspicious of Hugh Beringar, so I am definitely looking elsewhe..."It's hard not commenting on your suspicious, ha, but if you think you know who the murderer is, you can certainly spill the beans with your hunches if you want to (I am just dying to know wether your and my suspects are the same, but I don't want to divulge any specific names unless you say that's alright, I don't want to ruin the story for you).
I think you should at least let the so-called computer expert know that he has somehow lost half of your audiobooks. Even if you don't ever want him back, you should let him know that he screwed up big time.
You know me, I did tell the schmuck! He said if that is what I thought he could leave immediately and I need not pay him. I have no proof that those covers at Itunes did have content in them immediately before he arrived, so I can prove nothing. I am suspicious though since he has no experience with audiobooks.Anyhow we paid him and he reduced the price. A compromise?I think the murderer is (view spoiler). Please tell me in a spoiler. Anybody reading this can choose if they want to look or not. I am pretty darn sure, but true I am not good at solving mysteries.
Chrissie wrote: "You know me, I did tell the schmuck! He said if that is what I thought he could leave immediately and I need not pay him. I have no proof that those covers at Itunes did have content in them immedi..."You are right, the murderer is (view spoiler).
If that computer expert had no experience with audiobooks, he should have told you that before he started on your computer and on your ipod, sigh. I'm glad that your audiobooks have not been permanently lost, but still what a pain.
Nice! I give myself a star. Guessing who the murderer is is not point of the story. If it were I could stop now, but I want to hear how all the details go together and I want to experience the subtle humor between Cadfael and Beringar. I love how they both view each other. One old, one young but on the same level. I also just love how the abbey and Shrewsburg are depicted. When they are in the herbarium I smell the thyme and rosemary and lavender. My opinion is that this is the best book to start with. I wish I had started here and continued then in the order of the books. It is not the end of the world what I did either though.
They use the word "kot". It is some kind of shirt. Do you know more how it looks? I find find no such word at Wiki. I must be spelling it wrong.
Chrissie wrote: "Nice! I give myself a star. Guessing who the murderer is is not point of the story. If it were I could stop now, but I want to hear how all the details go together and I want to experience the subt..."I don't really know how that looks, but it is spelled "cotte" I think. I will check myself.
I am glad that you also think that this is the best book in the series to start with. It is funny, but for me, all of the books in the Cadfael series where Hugh does not appear at all (like the very first book, A Morbid Taste for Bones and later, The Summer of the Danes) are books I don't like as much as the ones that feature both Cadfael and Hugh.
I think that both Cadfael and Hugh are well developed as characters and the humour and deep friendship between them is both refreshing and natural. And like you, I have always loved how the abbey, the surroundings, the historical background are depicted, realistically, informatively, but never tediously.
And another thing that I have recently noted about the Cadfael series as a whole is that while Ellis Peters describes and depicts, tells about events set in an abbey, in a religious time and place, there is never a sense of religiosity, of hitting the reader over the head with and by religion. A few months ago, I read The Unquiet Bones about a 14th or 15th century surgeon near Oxford, and while the story was quite interesting, the religious content, the description of religious observances and the like sometimes actually felt as though the author was trying to convert the reader. This NEVER happens with the Cadfael series. It takes place in an abbey, it features monks (and especially one monk, Cadfael), but the religious time and place of the story are clearly historical events and one never gets the feeling as though religion is being overemphasised.
I also don't generally care that much about who the murderer is in the Cadfael series (the whodunnit part of the series does not really matter all the much to me). But for some books, like One Corpse Too Many, St. Peter's Fair and The Sanctuary Sparrow, guessing who the the culprit might be is both interesting and even perhaps important. In all of those books, someone is originally accused or at least held in suspicion (like for example, Hugh Beringar in One Corpse Too Many) and if it's a character I like or care about, I might speculate at who the real perpetrator could be, but it certainly is not essential by any means.
Gundula, I agree with all that you say and you express perfectly what charms me with the series as a whole.I adore the relationship between Beringar and Cadfael AND I like the personalities of the two men.
Yes, religion is never stuffed down your throat. that is refreshing too.
It is wonderful how she depicts abbey life, historical details, religion and the nature of people. Realistically but still with an eye to goodness, humor and wisdom.
I am on the last CD, so almost done. I am so happy I had the chance to listen to this.
Chrissie wrote: "Gundula, I agree with all that you say and you express perfectly what charms me with the series as a whole.I adore the relationship between Beringar and Cadfael AND I like the personalities of th..."
If you ever want to do any more Buddy Reads for this series, just let me know, I've enjoyed this and even though I have actually mostly been skimming the book due to time constraints, it was sure nice to revisit the series.
And you know, I love how Ellis Peters describes, her choice of words, her narrative style. Quite a few modern writers of historical mysteries have started to make use of what I would call a rather modern slang (and curse words like the f-word and the like). While I am sure that especially the peasantry might very well have used mostly colloquial language, we really do not know exactly how they (or anyone) really spoke, but using very modern sounding informal language just feels rather anachronistic, while peppering the narrative with curse words has the tendency to seem lazy and kind of jarring (so it's better, in my opinion, to do what Ellis Peters has done, to keep the narrative relatively neutral, neither too high, nor too low a register, as this both eases comprehension and prevents the reader from feeling as though one is reading a historical tale told or depicted in the specific vernacular of the 20th and 21st centuries).
Of course, even a neutral narrative style in standard modern English would be by necessity somewhat anachronistic, as in order to be 100% authentic, the author would have to have his/her characters converse in (if in England) Old English, Middle English or Early Modern English (depending on the time frame) and the monks of Shrewsbury would likely have conversed mostly in Latin amongst themselves (but then, almost no one, except perhaps Mediaeval or classical language experts would be able to understand the writing). But although even standard modern English is of course anachronistic for the Middle Ages, I still prefer the fact that Peters has used it and has kept her text, her narrative neutral and not tried to make her characters or at least some of her characters speak in what I would call modern slangy discourse.
I have enjoyed reading this with you, Gundula, very, very much. We must do this again. Thank you so very, very much!It is Ellis Peters' language that enchants me. You hit that on the nail. It is the lack of crude words and her knowledge of medieval terms. Oh yeah, I went to Wiki and sought cotte under images: https://www.google.be/search?hl=en&am...
Here you get some good pictures of what is meant. A tunic is the best synonym I can think of.
I will return when I finish the book, but we must definitely do this again. THIS is how I love to do buddy reads! THANK YOU! Good company and good book!
Would you believe it but while writing this comment I have had three Firefox crashes. So much for improvement! I am being sarcastic OF COURSE! I try and write as quickly as possible - very stress inducing, to say the least!
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Lee wrote: "I must try and get this from the library! You guys are so fast!"Well, Chrissie is listening to it on CD and this is probably the third time I have read the book (it would take longer if I were reading it for the first time).
Lee, I just finished. I know I am too fast so I am terrible with buddy reads. Thank goodness Gundula had already read it.I LOVED the ending. When a book ends on a great punch you always want to give it five stars. This is definitely excellent. I seriously think this is as good as The Leper of Saint Giles which I gave five stars, BUT if I compare it to Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World I have to say it isn't quite up to that...... On the other hand if I don't give this five stars someone might think it is not as good as The Leper of Saint Giles, and I think it is!!!! I am such a lover of total non-fiction. Hmmm, I have to think. Peters' writing ability IS fantastic.
Chrissie wrote: "I just finished. I know I am too fast so I am terrible with buddy reads. Thank goodness Gundula had already read it.I LOVED the ending. When a book ends on a great punch you always want to give i..."
I loved the ending as well, I think it is my favourite part of the book. I thought that you would like One Corpse Too Many, and you really do learn a lot about both Cadfael and Hugh and their developing friendship (I wish this was nonfiction and I wish I could inhabit the book and maybe, maybe get Hugh for myself, ha, although I do like Aline as a character).
The ending is not just exciting and tensions-filled, it is also surprisingly tender and shows both how much Aline loves Hugh and how much Cadfael has started to live and appreciate him.
Exactly, I gave it five stars; with that ending I had to.
Chrissie wrote: "Lee, I just finished. I know I am too fast so I am terrible with buddy reads. Thank goodness Gundula had already read it.I LOVED the ending. When a book ends on a great punch you always want to g..."
This is the first book of brother Cadfael I read (the second of the series). This push me to read the following novel and I rarely been disappointed.
In this book there are the roots of friendship between Cadfael and Hugh, based on the mutual respect and affection.
Andrew, both Gundula and I loved this book for its depiction of how this friendship grows. Just marvelous! Exactly, a friendship of deep mutual respect. Nice you liked my review. It is hard doing justice to such a great book.
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Lee wrote: "I barely skimmed through the posts because I've ordered it from the library now and don't want to spoil my experience. I'm excited to potentially find a great new mystery series. Thanks for doing..."The whole series is excellent, and I am more than willing to reread the book again :-)
Chrissie wrote: "Gundula is a total expert!"Thanks, I feel like a professor of Cadfael :-)
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Lee wrote: "I'll post my impressions once I start reading. :-)"I hope you enjoy the book, Lee.
I read all the novels of Cadfael Series and I liked so much the detailed description of the historical period, the Middle age's England. The lives of the protagonists are often intertwined with war for throne and with mysteries that in every book involving brother Cadfael. These books also instilled in me the curiosity for the history of England.
Chrissie wrote: "And a good professor!"But this is more fun than teaching German grammar ...
Chrissie wrote: "Andrew, both Gundula and I loved this book for its depiction of how this friendship grows. Just marvelous! Exactly, a friendship of deep mutual respect. Nice you liked my review. It is hard doing j..."After this I never stopped and I read one adventure after another.
Gundula wrote: "Lee wrote: "I'll post my impressions once I start reading. :-)"I hope you enjoy the book, Lee."
Lee, how soon will you be reading this?
It really is nice to have a Cadfael expert here with us! Thanks, Gundula. :D
Andrew, yeah, I am hooked too. The funny thing is that I have talked with many and each seem to prefer different ones. I was not thrilled with the first, but I just spoke with someone who loved that one.Lee, is this the first you have read by Ellis Peters? After this comes Monk's Hood. I have that on my Ipod! I will be filling in all the gaps between those I have read. I would love to talk about Corpse with you too! It is fun sharing thoughts.
Gundula, I also loved how Brother Jerome is mentioned and how Cadfael didn't really like this monk. It is a perfect example of how Peters makes none of her characters perfect. It is said that Cadfael didn't like those with "pallid tonsure's", which made me laugh. Something like that was said, at the final banquet. Oh and that snide remark about how the banquet was given b/c the villagers were happy King Stephen & Co. were LEAVING!
Chrissie wrote: "Andrew, yeah, I am hooked too. The funny thing is that I have talked with many and each seem to prefer different ones. I was not thrilled with the first, but I just spoke with someone who loved tha..."Cadfael didn't remain confined only to books. In the nineties was aired a four season series based upon Cadfael's novels. In the complex was good, but the most interesting thing was compare the characters of the book with their transposition on the screen. This series covered almost all books and liked me very much.
I have not seen any performances, but Gundula has!
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Lee, how soon will you be reading this?"
As soon as I get it from the library. I've put a hold on it, should arrive this week.
OK, I may try and sneak in while you're reading, if you don't mind. I have some hold list books to finish, but it's nice that Chrissie and others here have enjoyed this one so much!
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The mini-series has some good episodes, some mediocre ones and some that were so different from the book that they are painful to watch. One of the main problems is that the actor who played Hugh Beringar kept changing in a few of the episodes Hugh is cast as a totally inflexible person, more akin to the Gilbert Prestcote character in the novels than how Peters depicts and describes Hugh. For example, if you enjoyed reading St. Peter's Fair, DON'T WATCH the movie version.
Lee wrote: "Nope, but I don't mind starting with the second in the series."You are better off starting with the second book, in my opinion, One Corpse Too Many is the real start of the series, or at least the real start of the historical background on which the rest of the series is based.
Comfort Reads
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And please notice, that there will definitely be spoilers in this thread.