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Emma Sea
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Nov 20, 2012 04:10PM

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Any chance we can see that thesis? Curiosity heightened!


Any chance we can see that thesis? Curiosity heightened!"
I had a feeling you were going to ask me that. I don't know ... that was over ten years ago @_@ I know where some of my notes are, but not the whole paper.
Anyway basically my argument was that tropes in yaoi (and BL manga as a whole but more specifically yaoi) strongly reflected the opportunities available to Japanese women at the time produced. So, in the 60ties where women were working in horrible factory conditions or trapped at home, the "European Boarding School Rape" Fantasy was crazy prevalent with its severe effeminization/masculinization and emphasis on violent uncontrollable love, foreign places and people (this is what most people associate with "yaoi" but it hasn't really been common in DECADES). But as Women's Lib starts to gain steam the "uke" characters become more masculine, start showing more initiative, are less likely to just accept the rape-love. Until the modern manifestation of yaoi where sports stories that emphasize brotherhood and companionship love among men are overwhelmingly popular and shorter/younger/girlish "seme" characters are not difficult to find at all.
Basically it was a good excuse to read lots of porn in class ;)

"I wonder how free these authors feel to step outside the conventions of M/M fiction and still have a reasonable expectation their books will sell. People often buy genre fiction because it fulfills an expectation that certain things will happen in a certain way. The great genre authors are the ones able to create new expectations within the genre or play with the existing conventions in new and thrilling ways. Often, however, authors with less imagination cannibalize the work of their more creative peers and a trope or motif that might have made sense in its original context spreads throughout the genre and becomes cliché."
As a genre, m/m isn't satisfying us because of this cannabalisation. So many of the new releases aren't the books we want to read any more. Lots of my friends are taking, have taken, or are planning to take m/m breaks. Isa's previous posts have addressed a lot of these issues: and yes, some of this seems seems to be profit-related and publisher-driven.
M/m is eating itself.
I don't want the genre to collapse inwards like a black hole, because I love it. Is the solution to seek out new self-published authors? My favourite three books this year are The Condor, Shattered Glass, and How to Repair a Mechanical Heart: all self-pubs. Our GR network is our strength in this.

ETA, great post, Isa!

Oh yes! I wanted to make this point too but I forgot about it :) I found it interesting that everyone automatically assumed that the fantasy Stuart described isn't appealing to gay men as well, because you're definitely not alone LOL

Any chance we can see that thesis? Curiosity heightene..."
Isa wrote: "Anyway basically my argument was that tropes in yaoi (and BL manga as a whole but more specifically yaoi) strongly reflected the opportunities available to Japanese women at the time produced. So, in the 60ties where women were working in horrible factory conditions or trapped at home, the "European Boarding School Rape" Fantasy was crazy prevalent with its severe effeminization/masculinization and emphasis on violent uncontrollable love, foreign places and people (this is what most people associate with "yaoi" but it hasn't really been common in DECADES). But as Women's Lib starts to gain steam the "uke" characters become more masculine, start showing more initiative, are less likely to just accept the rape-love. Until the modern manifestation of yaoi where sports stories that emphasize brotherhood and companionship love among men are overwhelmingly popular and shorter/younger/girlish "seme" characters are not difficult to find at all."
Is it really changing now? The reason I stopped reading yaoi was because of the rampant rape-"love" and conditioning/Stockholm as a vehicle of romance. (Not to mention, of course, that the seme/uke thing is ultimately a heterosexualization of a homosexual relationship...)
This means mangas have stopped rabidly referencing Pavlovian dogs, right? Right? *crosses fingers* Please let it be so! Maybe I'll start looking into yaoi again when I'm feeling like reading manga...

I came of age at the nascent millennium. Those "authentic" gay lit I came across were depressing as hell. Fucked me up for a long time. I'm still a WIP. IMO, the LGBT book scene haven't changed from your time to my time. At least on the YA part. I didn't even dare touch the adult gay lit.
I still read YA and I think only like 1-2 years ago did I discover "happy" fiction of gay characters (as MC, not sidekicks) with a plot that wasn't a "life a bitch, and then you die." Though to be fair, they were sci-fi/fantasy and I avoid contemporary YA.
So, you're not the only one.
@Ayanna
Yaoi is still the same yaoi of the previous decades.

Heh. Well it's been a while. I couldn't possibly make any recs on this. But there was a point where taller characters were tops. No question. It did not matter what the personality of the characters were. Taller = top and virtually NO ONE veered from this model. While Japanese M/M still holds onto seme/uke types to a degree, things used to be VERY STRICT.
The example that comes immediately to mind is Gravitation, which took the conventional "Cool seme, effeminate weepy uke" model and flipped it upside down. Shuichi actively pursues Yuki. Obsessively pursues him ... basically stalks him until Yuki finally gives in and sleeps with him. Like a typical seme Yuki is not gentle at all, Shuichi is telling him to stop and he ignores it. Rather than submissively accepting this treatment, Shuichi yells and berates Yuki, calls him a rapist and continues to squawk about his bullshit for pages (LOL)
I always liked that element of their relationship. Shuichi's ridiculousness basically calling out Yuki then Yuki being all like "-_-..... >.> .... >.> ..... :/ .... :( ... sorry *grumble*"
There's a lot more of what are called 襲い受け or osoiuke ... Ukes who not only pursue the seme but force a sexual relationship. (In more conventional terms we might call this "power bottom")
But if you're waiting for the Japanese manga with balanced, realistic gay relationships hahaha... good luck ;)

I've found, like, two scanlations. I can't find a single one that's been actually published in English. I would be all over those!

I have to ask you, what is your technical profession? This is out of curiosity and because I can relate.
And I LOVE the thesis you chose. I would like to read some of it if you can share it :P. I've read a huge amount of yaoi and some studies about it too. It is fascinating. (never mind I read the comments XD)
Ayanna wrote: "Ayanna wrote: "Is it really changing now? The reason I stopped reading yaoi was because of the rampant rape-"love" and conditioning/Stockholm as a vehicle of romance. (Not to mention, of course, that the seme/uke thing is ultimately a heterosexualization of a homosexual relationship...)"
It is changing, quite slowly, but you can find several titles that stand out because they defy the "rules" nowadays.
Now, the problem I see is that most of these are not being licensed haha. And I don't think there's any bara published in English. If it were I would know, I have a friend that's an huge fan of that and she gets them from Japan, she tends to buy them again if they are licensed in English.
I used to be heavily into yaoi before being able to read M/M properly (the English skills got better reading all that porn XD). At first I tended to devour anything I found, but it was only a few months later that I got annoyed with repetitive rampant rape-"love", conditioning/Stockholm as a vehicle of romance, the seme/uke thing. I talked a lot about it with a friend who shared the same views, and we came up with this crazy idea of creating a club to point the odd ones out or classify some of them.
We weren't 100% successful, since everyone had a different opinion about each character or story. Also, I don't think we chose the title very well, some people got offended, but it was catchy enough. I haven't worked on the site since more than a year ago. Now feel kind of...nervous to present our baby to you guys haha. But, well, someone might find something useful there.

I have to ask you, what is your technical profession? This is out of curiosity and because I can relate.
And I LO..."
I'm what's call a Developer Evangelist/Hacker. What's happening in tech is that the industry is shifting from consumer products (where you built a cool website and lay people give you money to use it) to more development focused (where you built the infrastructure with which independent programmers will build cool things ... think smartphones and apps). But the problem with this shift is that programmers do not want to talk to sales people, or even customer service people... they want to talk to other programmers.
So essentially what I did is go to parties, conventions, meetups, etc, demo the product, answer questions about the product, debug things for other programmers ... then take this highly technical feedback back to engineering, talk them through the issues we're seeing on the ground with the product, help them develop solutions, etc. Depending on how large the company is there may as be some tutorial writing, sample code generation, teaching, etc.
I also do a lot of prototyping, stress testing and security audits (which is a fancy way of saying I see how easy it is to break shit) Right now I'm prototyping a console to control multiple cloud servers at once ^_^
It's the coolest job in the world really :D

You are completely right about that. You get to break things!
Let me see if I get it right, you are the connection between the two worlds? I am a programmer and, even if I am not an expert, I understand this thing about wanting to deal only with the code's craziness.
Right now I'm prototyping a console to control multiple cloud servers at once ^_^
And here I am getting excited about learning to make webpages XD.
What you said about being a techy woman, that doesn't happen a lot here, maybe because all extremely technical people are regarded as equally weird hahaha. But I know of a fellow engineer that was seen as the strangest bug in Germany, probably the only woman in her department. She told me they were like "how can a pretty woman be an engineer?" something along the lines of if you are pretty, no way that you are smart.

Yes!!!
Thanks for some excellent points here Isa. I, stupidly, clicked the like button before eventually getting to Stuart's post and then wanted to kick myself for not being more careful.

Sometimes I use 'like' as an 'I acknowledge this post addresses points worth raising' more than 'I agree with this post'.


Well, as I tell my little fan club, I did not come out of the womb writing Lambda functions, LOL. I also didn't do any kind of university degree in tech or engineering. I just like building shit ^_^ For me writing code is exactly the same as writing stories ... just slightly different audience and less sex scenes
"What you said about being a techy woman, that doesn't happen a lot here, maybe because all extremely technical people are regarded as equally weird hahaha. But I know of a fellow engineer that was seen as the strangest bug in Germany, probably the only woman in her department. She told me they were like "how can a pretty woman be an engineer?" something along the lines of if you are pretty, no way that you are smart."
It can be pretty subtle. The main problem is that women are assumed to be less skilled than men, so in order to be competitive she must be twice as good just to been seen as equal. Funny story, before I moved over to Evangelism I was doing a lot of data analysis type programming. And a job opened up at this big startup that looked like it might be a good opportunity. They grilled me for five hours, during which I designed a system that was comparable to what they were using at the time, blind, with no data, no schema, no tools other than a whiteboard marker ... they acted like this was a major failure ... all except one of their existing analysts, who was female and thought I was brilliant.
Anyway the next day I get a call from them asking if I'd come in for another four more hours. By this point I had already passed a technical skills test, several screening interviews, plus the previous five hour session. I realized then that it wasn't about me proving myself so much as it was certain people trying to find holes in my skills they could nitpick in order to prove I wasn't qualified. So I was like "Mmmmm how about, no?" and passed on the job.
That's the way it is for women here. Assumed nontechnical until proven technical. While the boys are assumed technical until proven nontechnical.

Well, as I tell my little fan club, I did not come out of the womb writing Lambda functions, LOL. I also didn't do a..."
The fuck. That makes me feel crotch-kicking ragey.

Megan Derr's post was TL:DR, but I did read Voinov's post and understood his perspective. Yeah, Stuart's post raised some good points, but there were also some things in it that deserved to be addressed. It should have prompted enlightened discussion, not rants, but this is the internet. Flame wars count as meaningful conversation here.

I have mixed feelings about that. It is and it isn't authe..."
The top/bottom thing doesn't bother me unless sexual position somehow starts to dictate a character's personality. The bottom needs protecting and is more passive while the top is more macho and aggressive, etc. Bottoms can be aggressive, tops don't have to pull the "you are mine, i own dis ass cuz i tapped it" card. That's the type of thing that bugs me.
But like you said, I know guys who aren't versatile at all, and I know a lot of guys who just won't bottom for someone shorter/skinnier than them, so there is some validity to the physical preference thing. It's not that much different than women who prefer super tall men even if they're like five foot.
When I read the original post I agreed with the complaints about tropes and it reminded me of some issues I've been having with writing in this genre lately, but I didn't interpret it the way some people did as far as it being anti-female writer. There are male writers who do the exact same things.
I did have some issues with some of the broad generalizations on behalf of the male side of the gay community though because not all of his claims were accurate as far as what he's observed in the gay community versus what other gay dudes may have observed. I know gay dudes who sashay when they walk, I know gay dudes who appreciate a nice pair of dicksucking lips and I actually know a guy who has a throat/adam's apple fetish so watching a dude guzzle water actually does turn him on. Everyone's different, etc, wise statement, blahblah
/2 cents


Weasel wrote: " I'd love to read a story about a femme bottom who goes all bad-ass psychopathic mofo when his big manly protector gets put in real danger. "
I'd like to read that too. You're not the only one :D

Read ICoS!

That is not what I wrote, BTW, and not even touching the main point I made in my blog post.

Read ICoS!"
I'm planning to, just saying. It wasn't even an answer to my post ;) But it's long. And I heard that it's really difficult - emotional exhausting - in some parts. I'm not sure if I'm brave enough...
If I could have pushed that like button more than once I'd have pushed it a hundred! Yes! Exactly!

Yes. This.
One of the things that hooked me on hockey fanfic was that the writers are unapologetically having fun with writing and tropes (accidental marriage! secret baby! etc - but also amazingly stalker trope free, yay!). And it made me realize how rarely I have the sense when reading m/m that the author was writing for the love of writing and enjoying it - too often lately it's felt that I'm reading books written by authors who are grinding them out simply to be saleable. I've grown weary of this. So very weary.

It's also brilliant and engrossing and made out of everything awesome on the planet :)

So many people have told me already that it's worth reading... Sigh.
I have to, I have, I have to [chant]

Read ICoS!"
But it's so L..."
*facepalm*

Seriously, Aiko. I cannot stand longwinded writing. It's a very rare book that needs to be longer than 300 pages. Remember, I rarely read fanfic or online fic either. ..."
Mjeh, I get it :) It is pretty rambling at points.
I just love it so that I get all "WHYYY would anyone not read this? it makes no sense!!"
I have the same reaction when people say they don't like chocolate.
Weasel wrote: "Aiko wrote: "*facepalm*"
Seriously, Aiko. I cannot stand longwinded writing. It's a very rare book that needs to be longer than 300 pages. Remember, I rarely read fanfic or online fic either. ..."
Don't do it, Daniel. Somewhere I have all my hair tearing out comments from wading through Evenfall. It took me more than two weeks to read it because I kept getting so frustrated and tossing it...then I had to go back to see what happened next. I eventually got hooked on the story but OMG the journey to that point was painful!!! Now admittedly that was BEFORE their first edit. But I don't think it has been fixed enough, given what I read on people's status updates.
Seriously, Aiko. I cannot stand longwinded writing. It's a very rare book that needs to be longer than 300 pages. Remember, I rarely read fanfic or online fic either. ..."
Don't do it, Daniel. Somewhere I have all my hair tearing out comments from wading through Evenfall. It took me more than two weeks to read it because I kept getting so frustrated and tossing it...then I had to go back to see what happened next. I eventually got hooked on the story but OMG the journey to that point was painful!!! Now admittedly that was BEFORE their first edit. But I don't think it has been fixed enough, given what I read on people's status updates.

You were the one pushing it on me...You just wanted to see me cry. Admit it.

You were the one pushing it on me...You just wanted to see me cry. Admit it."
She does that to everyone, Aiko. She's the evil scientist and we're her lab rats.

You were the one pushing it on me...You just wanted to see me cry. Admit it."
She does that to everyone, ..."
I read ICoS for science!
Best experiment ever.

There's "like" as in "this flavor does not offend me, I do not object to placing more of this in my food hole."
T..."
Mine and yours tastebuds are not related. At all.
LOL. You all have much higher pain thresholds than I do. Daniel, not so much. I am being kind here. Hard as that is to believe.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You pushed it like crazy on us poor unsophisticated souls and now you're being kind to Daniel's genteel taste. Talk about making chalk of one and cheese of the other. Bah!

Then theres "like" as in "I will perform degrading acts to obtain more of this substance.""
....I need that on a poster or something o.o

Then theres "like" as in "I will perform degrading acts to obtain mor..."
No. On a T-shirt. I would buy that.
