Rude Talk in Athens: Ancient Rivals, the Birth of Comedy, and a Writer’s Journey through Greece

by Mark Haskell Smith

" Rude Talk in Athens is brave, brilliant, and incredibly funny. There are loads of very specific characters, including Mark himself. It's the Mark Haskell Smith version of hanging out with Stanley Tucci and Anthony Bourdain, but in present day and ancient Greece. I agree with everything he says about comedy and have never read anything like it." ―Barry Sonnenfeld, Film Director and author of Barry Sonnenfeld, Call Your Memoirs of a Neurotic Filmmaker

In ancient Athens, thousands would attend theatre festivals that turned writing into a fierce battle for fame, money, and laughably large trophies. While the tragedies earned artistic respect, it was the comedies―the raunchy jokes, vulgar innuendo, outrageous invention, and barbed political commentary―that captured the imagination of the city.
The writers of these comedic plays feuded openly, insulting one another from the stage, each production more inventive and outlandish than the last, as they tried to win first prize. Of these writers, only the work of Aristophanes has survived and it’s only through his plays that we know about his Cratinus, the great lush; Eupolis, the copycat; and Ariphrades, the sexual deviant. It might have been the golden age of Democracy, but for comic playwrights, it was the age of Rude Talk.
Watching a production of an Aristophanes play in 2019 CE and seeing the audience laugh uproariously at every joke, Mark Haskell Smith began to what does it tell us about society and humanity that these ancient punchlines still land? When insults and jokes made thousands of years ago continue to be both offensive and still make us laugh?
Through conversations with historians, politicians, and other writers, the always witty and effusive Smith embarks on a personal mission (bordering on obsession) exploring the life of one of these unknown writers, and how comedy challenged the patriarchy, the military, and the powers that be, both then and now. A comic writer himself and author of many books and screenplays, Smith also looks back at his own career, his love for the uniquely dynamic city of Athens, and what it means for a writer to leave a legacy.

Genres: Nonfiction, History

203 pages, Hardcover

Published August 17, 2021

About the author

Mark Haskell Smith is the author of seven novels with one word titles, most recently Blown and Memoires, and three nonfiction books including Rude Talk in Athens and Naked at Lunch.

He lives in Los Angeles. He likes Mexican food.

Reviews

[Chris Linehan · Rating 3 out of 5]

This is a fun book to read. It covers some Ancient Greek history that is surprisingly new and fresh. The anecdotal parts of the history are clever and I enjoy the passion that Mark Haskell Smith imbues into his research. I can appreciate his passion, his insights are intriguing and generally witty. The writing itself is sharp and funny, even if rude - I guess that's the whole point isn't it?

I'm conflicted though as some of the conclusions that Smith draws are a bit easy, convoluted and self-serving. He goes a long way to paint the ancient Greeks in a complex light, "sure, they're the model for Western Civilization, but they were slaveholders". An oversimplification on my part, but Smith fleshes out some of the nuance in a way that is gripping yet even handed. However he doesn't give the same courtesy to anyone else that he lambasts in the book. With these people, generally Christians, Conservatives or anyone who dares have a different viewpoint to the author on today's issues are flattened and have all of their nuance stripped away: they become wicked caricatures in his narrative, the bulwarks of the industrial military complex, the patriarchy, the organized religious bigots brigade and the guardians of the utopian society that his magical version of equity would provide if we first got rid of all the undesirables. At one point he notes that someone in his own school burned a book they disagreed with without noticing the irony that they were coming off a bit nazi-ish. Aside from the leaps and bounds one's intellect must make to truly tie together the disparate social cures that will lead us to some mythical, but earth-bound pearly gates, I find the most tiresome aspect of the whole affair to be a seeming lack of self-awareness that his cure for the suppression that so plagues us today is to suppress the suppressors, to flip the script and ignore the irony involved in it all. Or maybe I'm wrong; maybe like the hero of this book, Ariphrades, maybe Haskell Smith sees the irony and that's the joke.

All in all though, I think it was a good book. I might try another one of his books.

[Lilyyyy · Rating 4 out of 5]

Ancient Greece is often attributed with founding the progressive and innate notions of society and democracy that we so heavily rely upon today. However, the still highly oppressive nature and resistance to change is frequently ignored. This novel addresses this through focusing on comedy writers within Ancient Greece, specifically Ariphrades. The author highlights how said writers were both resisted and embraced as they challenged the inherent foundations of society under the protection of comedy. This novels redefines sexuality and the basis of hedonism, with a deep exploration into how crucial comedy can be to the pursuit of both political and social change.

[Sean · Rating 4 out of 5]

This is a fascinating and very fun tour through Athens and the origins of comedy. The questions that come up at the end of the chapter “Building Zeta” will stay with me for a long time. I appreciate Haskell Smith’s humor, especially when the topics could go off the rails into academia under the care of another author; he keeps the reader engaged with the perfect mix of entendre, self-deprecation and snarky asides. He’s definitely the tour guide I hope to show me Athens IRL, but I imagine that won’t be an option, so I’ll bring Rude Talk In Athens with me and enjoy a reread!

[Emma Gheorghiu · Rating 4 out of 5]

The way i would love to learn history in school

[Elaine · Rating 4 out of 5]

I really liked this book although it was nothing like I expected. It's a meandering walk through modern and ancient Athens with a touch of rebellion and revolutionary talk. I learned quite a bit about the sexual habits of ancient Greeks and the works of Aristophanes and a little known poet and playwright who was a contemporary of Aristophanes and Aristotle named Ariphrades. The only mentions of Ariphrades is as the butt of jokes in Aristophanes' plays. And Sexual Content alert!! - the thing that Aristophanes makes fun of about Ariphrades (more than once) is his love of cunnilingus. Since this practice is beloved by many, he explains about the social status of women in ancient Greek society which was that you were either a wife who was relegated to only sex for procreative purposes and were usually not even allowed to leave your home. You were certainly not allowed to go to plays or vote or anything. And the only other type of women in society were poor women and slaves, who were basically the same thing, who were allowed more freedom of movement but were supposed to be sexually submissive (even sex workers). Free men were allowed to have wives, lovers, and concubines of both sexes but only if they were in a dominate position (the receiver of oral sex not the giver, the penetrator, not the penetrated). Free women stayed home and had babies with their husband. So being said to be good at cunnilingus was a put-down but we have nothing in Ariphrades voice to know how he felt about it. So yes, this is a usually funny but sometimes deep and intellectual book that explores Ariphrades the forgotten poet and his reported love of cunnilingus. Now Ariphrades' plays and poetry have not survived and the author explores this too and you get a little history of censorship over the ages in the voice of another author, Matthew Battles of "Library: An Unquiet History" which is also highly recommended. The author actually talked to Battles and he's quoted in the book. Spoiler alert - much of the loss of ancient texts is the fault of the early Christian Church not the burning of the Library of Alexandria according to Battles. He gets a little political in a way I enjoyed (pro women's rights and anti censorship) at the end of this rather brief book but his conclusions are wholly supported in the thorough bibliography.

[Tania · Rating 5 out of 5]

So much fun! Fantastic exploration of comedy & history through the vale of contemporary travels in Greece. I really enjoyed the “nerd narrative” as the author says that details the importance of comedy from its origin to our modern times.

[RedSycamore · Rating 2 out of 5]

This book reads like the kind of book written by a tourist who sees graffiti that says '****ing tourists, go home' and confidently thinks to themselves how glad they are that they're one of the cool tourists. That isn't a random impression, it's an anecdote the author totally unabashedly included in this naval-gazing trial of a book and a nice succinct summary of exactly who you'll be spending the next few hours of your life with if you decide to pick it up.

[Candi Sary · Rating 5 out of 5]

Another unforgettable book from Mark Haskell Smith. It’s funny, insightful, entertaining and irreverent. I loved it!

[Kacie · Rating 3 out of 5]

3.5*

This was a fun, non-fiction read based on the question, and I shit you not, "Did this Athenian guy invent cunnilingus 2000 years ago, and did everyone hate him for doing that?"

It then poses some more important questions like what is your legacy as a writer when none of your work survives, how much of our current sphere of writing will survive henceforth, and will there be any pussy licking jokes in the ones that do.

Content aside, I really liked the format of this book. It was one part informed non-fiction based on interviews with classicists, antiquarians and librarians, and another part travel narrative, as we see the sights of Athens through the authors eyes and experience trips to the theatre along with him. Basically, it read like a historical documentary on the BBC - you see the sights and then they overlay it with dramatic representations, then you see the host do some fun historical activity. Time Team, but without the mud.

This was definitely a fun, short read, but I don't think it will stay with me. I most likely forget the name Ariphrades soon, which is unfortunate, but the length of the book, combined with its, albeit entertaining, tangents meant that there wasn't much learning to be had. Non-fiction tends to fall into two categories, I find: questions posed and questions answered. This one definitely falls into the former.

[Sarah · Rating 5 out of 5]

I picked this book up on a whim (the usual way I acquire most of my library reads) and it was so much fun to read. Similar to “A Fatal Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum” by Emma Southon, the wit and dedication to the topic was evident from page one. I had never considered the history of comedy via Ancient Greek writers, but I certainly learned a lot and enjoyed the process! I would highly recommend this book if you’re just looking for something funny to read about a topic that isn’t taught in school (though I’d definitely sign up for a class that included this book in its required reading!). Overall, this book is the exact reason I sometimes wander into my local library and chose the book with the most ridiculous title/cover!

[Joseph Waugh · Rating 4 out of 5]

Phenomenal book about the filthiness of the Ancient Greek philosophers. Turns out humor hasn't changed that much after thousands of years.

[Vienna Manzanares · Rating 5 out of 5]

As a lover of ancient Greek history, I can honestly say this is one of the most entertaining and unique views of the past. The humor mixed with historical facts keeps the tone light while still informative. The writing style is inventive as if the author is speaking right to the reader. There is enough detail to achieve the book's purpose but not overly done, making the history digestible by all audiences. One interesting aspect the author includes is the fictional narrative mixed with historical facts. The mix of humor and authenticity creates a creative and connective read. I thoroughly enjoyed this book, and I highly recommend it to all readers!

[Audrey Brumlik · Rating 4 out of 5]

interesting parallels between the past and now. Not my favorite book, i think i'm being generous with the star rating but i did enjoy reading it.

[Noel Cisneros]

Smith recrea la vida de un comediante del que Aristófanes hace mofa en una de sus comedias como el inventor del cunilingus, ese escritor del que sólo nos ha llegado el nombre y algunas referencias en la obra de Aristóteles es el punto de partida para reflexionar en torno a la idea de democracia, de la sociedad actual (y la de Atenas en el siglo V). Interesante y divertido libro cuya lectura recomiendo.

[Rossanne Hamilton · Rating 3 out of 5]

It was fine, but not what I was looking for.

It read like a comedy writer who likes going to Athens a lot on holiday, got super into the playwright Ariphrades whilst he was there one time, and wanted to write a book about:

- Ariphrades,
- why he likes Athens as a holiday destination,
- and a few thoughts on what being a comedy writer might mean now and in ancient Greece.

Probably more interesting if you already know the author.

Not a fair review probably. I was looking for something more like 'courtesans and fishcakes'. I did finish it though. And I haven't been doing that a lot lately.

[auntshoe · Rating 4 out of 5]

A history book written by a comedian and not a historian wasn't something I ever thought I needed, but now that I've had it, I want this to be a whole genre. Come to think of it, this is probably also why I loved Mel Brook's 'History of the world pt 1'. Oh well. Beautifully written, funny, surprisingly current, at times heart-wrenching and ardent. It's really fascinating the way the author's skills as a professional storyteller lend to a very refreshing form of non-fiction that feels as if the author is a friendly guide, leading you through the streets of Athens circa 5th century BC to the Athens of post 2008 era to the Athens just before the pandemic, weaving a narrative that flows effortlessly from one time to the other and back, connecting all the plot threads into a beautiful tapestry. I appreciated the deep dive into the history of obscure Greek comedians, but I gotta say, the author's fond descriptions of his travels through modern Greece and Athens were the highlight of the book for me. The places I've been to and the ones I haven't... Really made me miss Greece.

[Olga · Rating 3 out of 5]

я вагалася між оцінкою 2 і 3*, але якщо чесно, ця книга настільки хаотична, що я навіть не знаю як зібрати докупи всі свої враження. тут і древньогрецькі комедії, і туристичний блог, і цитати від Че Гевари до Будди, і довгі описи сексуальних сцен на археологічних знахідках, і пошуки походження назв комах, й інтерв'ю з сучасними греками різних професій, і критика патріархату - і це тільки частина того з чого складається ця невеличка розповідь.
рекомендувати не буду, але можу сміливо сказати що це не те що я очікувала прочитати під такою назвою. принаймні це не було настільки "фанні" як обіцяє синопсис.

*додала один бал за завзятість автора в його пошуках.

[Jan Boyarin · Rating 3 out of 5]

An odd little book that is a combination of travelogue of current day Athens and an exploration of the bawdy actions and competition among comic playwrights in Classical Athens. An interesting chapter discusses the library at Alexandria in whose fire so many works of classical literature were lost. Fun to browse.

[Dominika de cocco · Rating 3 out of 5]

Easy, entertaining, a perfect airport book you can finish quickly. This is a great choice for those who have absolutely no idea about the ancient Greek culture. I feel like for me it was a bit too informal and coloquial.

[Colette]

DNF

[Erik]

Not very good.

[Ella N · Rating 4 out of 5]

3.75⭐️

[Arjun]

Bookmark...
October 17
Chapter 3
At the symposium

[Avery Zerr · Rating 3 out of 5]

that took painfully long to finish, it was good… i just wasn’t in the right headspace to be learning things