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Matty: An American Hero: Christy Mathewson of the New York Giants
When all-time pitching great Christy Mathewson died of tuberculosis in 1925 at the age of 45, it touched off a wave of national mourning that remains without precedent for an American athlete. The World Series was underway, and the game the day after Mathewson's death took on the trappings of a state officials slowly lowered the flag to half-mast, each ballplayer wore a black armband, and fans joined together in a chorus of "Nearer My God to Thee." Newspaper editorials recalled Mathewson's glorious career with the New York Giants, but also emphasized his unstinting good sportsmanship and voluntary service in World War I. The pitcher known to one and all as "Matty" or "Big Six" was as beloved for the strength of character he brought to the national pastime, as for his stunning 373 career victories. "I do not expect to see his like again," said his best friend and former manager, John McGraw. "But I do know that the example he set and the imprint he left on the sport that
he loved and honored will remain long after I am gone."
In Matty , Ray Robinson tells the story of a man who became America's first authentic sports hero. Until Mathewson, Robinson reveals, Americans loved baseball, but looked down on ballplayers and other athletes as hard-drinking, skirt-chasing ne'er-do-wells. Deprived of real-life role models, millions of readers followed the serialized exploits of Frank Merriwell, a fictional hero who excelled at sports from baseball to billiards and never drank, smoke, or swore. Robinson shows how an eager public greeted Mathewson as a flesh-and-blood version of Merriwell from his first year at Bucknell University, where he shone as star pitcher, premier field-goal kicker, and class president. Lured into the big leagues before he could graduate, the tall, handsome pitcher soon won over men, women and children with his sense of fair play and his arsenal of blazing fastballs, sweeping curves, and infamously deceptive fadeaway pitches. Robinson skillfully details the highlights of Mathewson's career,
including his showdowns against the great batters of his day and his encounters with the young Brooklyn, Chicago, Pittsburgh and St. Louis teams. Here are the six remarkable days in October, 1905 when Mathewson became the only pitcher ever to hurl three straight shutouts in a World Series, and the afternoon at West Point when he won $50 in a bet that he could throw 20 of his best pitches to exactly the same spot. Robinson does not underplay Mathewson's occasional failings, but the most surprising aspect of this fascinating portrait is just how close America's first Hall of Fame pitcher came to living up to his image.
Drawing on rare interviews, press clips, and long overlooked eyewitness accounts, Matty brings baseball's golden age to life--not only the great teams and the early superstars, but the long train trips between games, with cramped berths and no air conditioning; the small town ballplayers let loose amidst big city vice; and the two-bit gambling that eventually led to the infamous Black Sox Scandal of the 1919 Series (a scandal that might have escaped detection if the sportswriters in the press box with Mathewson had not been able to rely on his experienced eye for clues to how ballplayers might throw games). Offering rare insight into the making of an early twentieth century American hero, Matty is must reading for anyone who loves baseball.
he loved and honored will remain long after I am gone."
In Matty , Ray Robinson tells the story of a man who became America's first authentic sports hero. Until Mathewson, Robinson reveals, Americans loved baseball, but looked down on ballplayers and other athletes as hard-drinking, skirt-chasing ne'er-do-wells. Deprived of real-life role models, millions of readers followed the serialized exploits of Frank Merriwell, a fictional hero who excelled at sports from baseball to billiards and never drank, smoke, or swore. Robinson shows how an eager public greeted Mathewson as a flesh-and-blood version of Merriwell from his first year at Bucknell University, where he shone as star pitcher, premier field-goal kicker, and class president. Lured into the big leagues before he could graduate, the tall, handsome pitcher soon won over men, women and children with his sense of fair play and his arsenal of blazing fastballs, sweeping curves, and infamously deceptive fadeaway pitches. Robinson skillfully details the highlights of Mathewson's career,
including his showdowns against the great batters of his day and his encounters with the young Brooklyn, Chicago, Pittsburgh and St. Louis teams. Here are the six remarkable days in October, 1905 when Mathewson became the only pitcher ever to hurl three straight shutouts in a World Series, and the afternoon at West Point when he won $50 in a bet that he could throw 20 of his best pitches to exactly the same spot. Robinson does not underplay Mathewson's occasional failings, but the most surprising aspect of this fascinating portrait is just how close America's first Hall of Fame pitcher came to living up to his image.
Drawing on rare interviews, press clips, and long overlooked eyewitness accounts, Matty brings baseball's golden age to life--not only the great teams and the early superstars, but the long train trips between games, with cramped berths and no air conditioning; the small town ballplayers let loose amidst big city vice; and the two-bit gambling that eventually led to the infamous Black Sox Scandal of the 1919 Series (a scandal that might have escaped detection if the sportswriters in the press box with Mathewson had not been able to rely on his experienced eye for clues to how ballplayers might throw games). Offering rare insight into the making of an early twentieth century American hero, Matty is must reading for anyone who loves baseball.
272 pages, Paperback
First published January 1, 1993
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Displaying 1 - 12 of 12 reviews
October 17, 2019
While, I don't feel that I learned much new material about Matty's life, I did enjoy the rehash of his career and I did learn more about him as a man rather than a legend. This is a short biography, but this reviewer came away with the satisfaction that the legend and the man are one in the same. If you read The Glory of their Times or hear the audio, you will realize the total admiration, respect, and awe for which his contemporaries had for Matty. He was intelligent, had diverse hobbies, could play checkers or chess with the best in the country, and led a life of integrity. In the early 1900's when only one umpire was available to run a game, the umpire would turn to Matty on a close play to make the call. That's the kind of reputation for honesty and character that he possessed. Secondly, as great a pitcher as he was, his ERA could have been even better.(His one season ERA of 1.14 is fourth best all time). In 1913, past his prime, nonetheless Maddie threw 68 consecutive innings without giving up a walk. Overall he gave up only 21 walks in 300 and six innings.Tthat typifies why he was known as a pinpoint control pitcher. Matty didn't care about ERA as much as wins, and if the competition was weak, to challenge himself, he would sometimes lob the ball up to the batters so the score would be closer and the challenge to win that much greater. I thought Ray Robinson did a fine job presenting a real human being(compromising his religious beliefs so that baseball could be played on Sunday), smoking a cigar, or having an occasional glass of wine/beer, and betting on games of chance(not baseball) rather than Saint Matty. But if we are to believe the great sports writers of the day like Heywood Broun, Grantland Rice, Ring Lardner and more, Matty must have been the kind of man that soldiers would have gone to war with and not regret it. In fact at age 38, well above the mandatory registration age of 31, Matty volunteered to enter the WAR to teach chemical warfare prevention to the troops. I had always though that the exposure to chemical gas from the trenches and from a training mishap led to his deeath. But I learned that, while it may have weakened his immune system, Matty developed TB and suffered for seven years with it before succumbing in 1925.I also learned about the long lasting and great friendship between Matty and the irascible Mugsie McGraw and their families-at one time sharing an apartment together. That was fascinating to me because they were so different in personality. Matty deserves the reverence that he still commands and this book proves why.
December 31, 2018
I have been a fan of Mathewson's for decades after seeing a documentary about him in the 1990s. In truth, Christy Mathewson was the most unlikely of American heroes back at the beginning of the 20th century. Born of a middle class family in a small town, he was raised a strict Baptist. As a young man, he attended Bucknell University where he received decent grades but found his passion, sports. Although he played football, baseball became his passion. Always humble, he never thought he was talented enough play baseball at first and was seriously considering a career in either forestry or the ministry. In 1900 after a couple of good but not great baseball seasons with the New York Giants, he seriously thought of switching to the American League or returning to college. His life changed in the next two years when he met the fiery outspoken John McGraw, the new manager of the New York Giants whose wife introduced Mathewson to a strong Presbyterian woman, Jane Stoughton. Mathewson, a strong conservative Christian had strict beliefs, practices, and quirks: never pitching on Sunday, not using foul language, vehement stand against sports gambling, loved to play checkers, and speaking out about the inequitable relationship between players and ownership. The young man was known by such nicknames as Matty', "Big Six, or the 'Christian Gentleman.' Starting with 1905, when Mathewson developed his famous 'fadeaway' (curveball), he had an outstanding season, ending with leading the Giant to the World Series championship, the gifted pitcher and leader affirms his place in baseball history. He recorded outstanding years in 1908, 1909 and 1910 and playing in three more World Series. By the end of 1913, he was a superstar (having won 20+ games 12 times and 30+ games four times) and an ambassador of the game. His success on the field and leadership led to his baseball peers wanting him to be the president of their collective representative organization but he turned them down. Unfortunately the wear and tear on his arm and diminished wins led to the fading star being traded away by the Giants to the Cincinnati Reds in 1916. In Cincinnati, he became a player/manager and ended his career with more wins in his final 3 years. It is so characteristic of Mathewson that as his baseball career ended in 1918, he served in WWI. In the U.S. military, Mathewson served as a captain in the Chemical Warfare Service (CWS). Unfortunately, he battled a bad case of influenza and was exposed to mustard gas. He does return to baseball in 1919 to coach for the Giants. Next, as a baseball executive for the Boston Braves in 1920-21, he is diagnosed with tuberculosis. Mathewson battled for several years before succumbing in 1925.
The book takes the reader on a ride during which Mr. Mathewson becomes a champion, a symbol of conservatism, the personification of an American man, and one of the most beloved celebrities of the early 20th century. This book is a wonderful memoir of a forgotten man of integrity and spirit. One cannot help to admire this outstanding man. Baseball fans and admirers of a man of integrity will love this tale.
The book takes the reader on a ride during which Mr. Mathewson becomes a champion, a symbol of conservatism, the personification of an American man, and one of the most beloved celebrities of the early 20th century. This book is a wonderful memoir of a forgotten man of integrity and spirit. One cannot help to admire this outstanding man. Baseball fans and admirers of a man of integrity will love this tale.
September 19, 2021
I like this book a lot, but it's marred by a lot of obvious errors (and surely many errors that I didn't notice). It's surprising to me that a book written in the 1990s, when scores of superb baseball historians were available for reference or fact-checkers, that simple information is wrong. And sometimes, it's not even a baseball thing, such as the author writing about life in NYC in 1896 and saying that airplanes didn't buzz overhead "for such machines performed almost exclusively at county fairs." Actually, the Wright Brothers' first flight was in 1903.
As for the baseball stuff, the author says that Mathewson signed his pro contract in November 1900, but then describes a couple of pages later his debut with the NY Giants in summer 1900. And he doesn't clarify any of the bizarre signing and trading of Mathewson at the start of his career, which included a trade straight-up for one of the best pitchers in baseball, Amos Rusie (there had to be money changing hands, but it's not mentioned), and then Mathewson a year later signing with another team but having that voided. This is interesting stuff that could have been covered with a few more paragraphs, and particularly why Mathewson was seen as a hot property, given the underwhelming performance he showed in his initial season.
On the other hand, the author is clearly a fan of the old-style baseball history and biography that takes things lightly and casually, and which gives a nostalgic flavor to the early eras of the game. I think this is very appropriate for the subject that he chose, and it made the book an enjoyable read.
The author also does a good job of pointing out the interesting, often contradictory flows of baseball in those days in the late 19th/early 20th century that intersected with Mathewson's career. Namely these have to do with his famed manager John McGraw. McGraw was ornery, angry player and manager, the Bobby Knight of his day, who broke rules on the field and was incredibly savvy and understanding off of it. Oh, and McGraw consorted with gamblers, just like Leo Durocher in his day and Pete Rose, Tiger Woods and Phil Mickelson in theirs. (The rules seemed to be bent for McGraw, as they have been for Woods on dozens of occasions.) Mathewson was McGraw's best player and became almost a son to him, as McGraw and his wife shared an apartment with Mathewson and his wife for years. Extraordinary.
The tragedy that ended Mathewson's life too soon in 1925 is told with understanding as well, and it gives the reader a sense of how the nation, not just sports fans, reacted, and how it set the tone for the worship of athletes that continues through this day.
If you're a stickler for details, go somewhere else. But if you want sweet and occasionally corny anecdotes and a general sense of baseball life from the 1890s to 1920, this is an excellent book.
As for the baseball stuff, the author says that Mathewson signed his pro contract in November 1900, but then describes a couple of pages later his debut with the NY Giants in summer 1900. And he doesn't clarify any of the bizarre signing and trading of Mathewson at the start of his career, which included a trade straight-up for one of the best pitchers in baseball, Amos Rusie (there had to be money changing hands, but it's not mentioned), and then Mathewson a year later signing with another team but having that voided. This is interesting stuff that could have been covered with a few more paragraphs, and particularly why Mathewson was seen as a hot property, given the underwhelming performance he showed in his initial season.
On the other hand, the author is clearly a fan of the old-style baseball history and biography that takes things lightly and casually, and which gives a nostalgic flavor to the early eras of the game. I think this is very appropriate for the subject that he chose, and it made the book an enjoyable read.
The author also does a good job of pointing out the interesting, often contradictory flows of baseball in those days in the late 19th/early 20th century that intersected with Mathewson's career. Namely these have to do with his famed manager John McGraw. McGraw was ornery, angry player and manager, the Bobby Knight of his day, who broke rules on the field and was incredibly savvy and understanding off of it. Oh, and McGraw consorted with gamblers, just like Leo Durocher in his day and Pete Rose, Tiger Woods and Phil Mickelson in theirs. (The rules seemed to be bent for McGraw, as they have been for Woods on dozens of occasions.) Mathewson was McGraw's best player and became almost a son to him, as McGraw and his wife shared an apartment with Mathewson and his wife for years. Extraordinary.
The tragedy that ended Mathewson's life too soon in 1925 is told with understanding as well, and it gives the reader a sense of how the nation, not just sports fans, reacted, and how it set the tone for the worship of athletes that continues through this day.
If you're a stickler for details, go somewhere else. But if you want sweet and occasionally corny anecdotes and a general sense of baseball life from the 1890s to 1920, this is an excellent book.
September 30, 2012
I had an early affinity for the great baseball pitcher of the early 1900s, Christy Mathewson, no doubt because we shared a birthday, albeit one 70 years apart. He died 25 years before I was born, so of course I never saw him play. But we were August 12 babies and he was the greatest pitcher of all time, they said, and I wanted to be a ballplayer more than anything, so he became one of my quartet of baseball heroes -- Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, and Mathewson. Only Mantle did I ever get to see play, and then only on television. But I devoured books on baseball and the men who had played the game over the century (then) of its existence. I wish I'd been able to read this book then, when I was a boy, as I have no doubt it would have lifted Mathewson even higher in my esteem. As it is, I'm very happy to have read it now. It's a story of, as the subtitle has it, an American hero, but not, as so often the term means today, merely a great player who thus becomes a hero, but in the grander sense of a man who behaved heroically, in his life, in his sport, and for his country. Few players have ever graced the game as Christy Mathewson did, and few are remembered in quite the same manner. Matty was one of those athletes about whom almost no one had an unkind thing to say. Ray Robinson has done a fine job reporting Matty's life, covering games and seasons with wonderful detail. If the inner Mathewson remains somewhat hidden from the reader, it is possibly because the inner Mathewson was not often allowed out of the man himself. This is a fine biography.
March 16, 2018
The iconic Christian gentlemen of baseball, Christy Mathewson, is again given the star treatment - as much in death as he was overly-praised in life - in Ray Robinson’s short though enjoyable biography “Matty: An American Hero.”
Though only slightly over 200 pages, this book accomplishes quite a bit for those readers previously unaware of the complete life story of “Big Six.” From his collegiate experience to his prime years spent in major league baseball and his brief managing and executive career, culminating in his prolonged illness and death arising from his military service in World War I, Robinson covers plenty in such an interesting fashion and enjoyable prose. However, due to the short length and lack of a bibliography and endnotes, scholarly readers and devoted sports enthusiasts should be aware from the very beginning that they will likely need to read another book concerning the subject in order to get the complete, detail-happy look on Matty. Overall, most readers will come away pleasantly surprised at how such few pages truly show how great of a person and pitcher Christy Mathewson was, though they will also deeply desire to learn more about certain playing years and games, as well as more on how his Christian faith affected his work.
Though only slightly over 200 pages, this book accomplishes quite a bit for those readers previously unaware of the complete life story of “Big Six.” From his collegiate experience to his prime years spent in major league baseball and his brief managing and executive career, culminating in his prolonged illness and death arising from his military service in World War I, Robinson covers plenty in such an interesting fashion and enjoyable prose. However, due to the short length and lack of a bibliography and endnotes, scholarly readers and devoted sports enthusiasts should be aware from the very beginning that they will likely need to read another book concerning the subject in order to get the complete, detail-happy look on Matty. Overall, most readers will come away pleasantly surprised at how such few pages truly show how great of a person and pitcher Christy Mathewson was, though they will also deeply desire to learn more about certain playing years and games, as well as more on how his Christian faith affected his work.
March 3, 2008
Insightful, emotional, riveting bio of my all-time favorite baseball player.
September 7, 2019
I would have given 3-1/2 stars if that was an option. I find Christy Mathewson one of the most intriguing characters in baseball history. A college graduate at a time when few baseball players even finished high school. A "Christian gentleman" in a sport that was then populated by ruffians. A person of impeccable integrity at a time when baseball was dogged with gambling scandals. In the same way that Babe Ruth made baseball popular in the 1920s, Mathewson made baseball socially acceptable in the 1900s. But that kind of analysis is only implied in this book rather than delved into.
I had read this years ago and felt it had shortcomings, so I decided to give it a second chance. It is a very good biography as sports biographies go, but I feel that it falls short in two areas. First, like many sports biographies, when there is a dearth of information about the subject, the biographer will spend a chapter or two describing in inning by inning detail a championship game that the subject took part in, even if the subject was not the main feature of the game. It's important to provide context for the subject of a biography, but this like many other sports bios tends to overdo it with the play by play accounts of games tangentially connected to the subject.
Secondly, though Mathewson was known in his day as "The Christian Gentleman", the author, while focusing quite well on the gentleman side of Mathewson's life, tends to ignore the Christian part. Aside from stating that Mathewson wouldn't play baseball on Sundays as a promise to his mother, and referring to the Bible as a book Mathewson "read and respected", there is nothing else that gives any insight into the role faith played in Mathewson's unique character. Like many who chronicle the Branch Rickey/Jackie Robinson story, the author here also downplays the role a person's faith had in being becoming a transformative personality in baseball and American history. The author spends more ink trying to prove that Mathewson was not a "goody-goody", pointing out such foibles as smoking the occasional pipe or uttering the occasional curse word. Mathewson embodied the Muscular Christianity espoused by many in his time, including President Teddy Roosevelt. There is much in this area of faith that could have been covered in this book, but this important piece of Mathewson's character is pretty much bypassed.
However, for what is in the book, it is an above average baseball biography, a good primer into Mathewson's life and baseball at the turn of the 20th century. Mathewson's career after baseball is covered in a very interesting fashion. Even with it's drawbacks, it's still a worthwhile read. But I still await the definitive Mathewson biography.
I had read this years ago and felt it had shortcomings, so I decided to give it a second chance. It is a very good biography as sports biographies go, but I feel that it falls short in two areas. First, like many sports biographies, when there is a dearth of information about the subject, the biographer will spend a chapter or two describing in inning by inning detail a championship game that the subject took part in, even if the subject was not the main feature of the game. It's important to provide context for the subject of a biography, but this like many other sports bios tends to overdo it with the play by play accounts of games tangentially connected to the subject.
Secondly, though Mathewson was known in his day as "The Christian Gentleman", the author, while focusing quite well on the gentleman side of Mathewson's life, tends to ignore the Christian part. Aside from stating that Mathewson wouldn't play baseball on Sundays as a promise to his mother, and referring to the Bible as a book Mathewson "read and respected", there is nothing else that gives any insight into the role faith played in Mathewson's unique character. Like many who chronicle the Branch Rickey/Jackie Robinson story, the author here also downplays the role a person's faith had in being becoming a transformative personality in baseball and American history. The author spends more ink trying to prove that Mathewson was not a "goody-goody", pointing out such foibles as smoking the occasional pipe or uttering the occasional curse word. Mathewson embodied the Muscular Christianity espoused by many in his time, including President Teddy Roosevelt. There is much in this area of faith that could have been covered in this book, but this important piece of Mathewson's character is pretty much bypassed.
However, for what is in the book, it is an above average baseball biography, a good primer into Mathewson's life and baseball at the turn of the 20th century. Mathewson's career after baseball is covered in a very interesting fashion. Even with it's drawbacks, it's still a worthwhile read. But I still await the definitive Mathewson biography.
August 17, 2020
Noted author Ray Robinson, who passed away in 2017 at the age of 96, pens what has to be considered a solid, but not exceptional, biography of one of baseball’s most popular players: Christy Mathewson.
On the plus side Robinson paints a vivid picture of a young sport emerging as an American pastime in the early years of the 20th century. He also weaves compelling and fascinating summaries of many of the New York Giants seasons that saw Big Six emerge as the most popular athlete in the sport.
But where he comes up short is in his portrayal of Mathewson. You very much get the impression that Mathewson was a man who valued his privacy and was keenly aware of his image and his reputation for morality and integrity. An adorning press seemed all to willing to add to the growing Mathewson myth. But Robinson appeared unable or unwilling to pierce the veil of the legend to find out who Big Six really was as a person. In the end Mathewson came off as a Godot like character in the book, a person who dominated the discussion but one you couldn’t even picture in your head or form an opinion of. And what was most disappointing about this failure was how close Robinson came to getting past the legend to discover who the man was. When Mathewson discovered the body of his younger brother (who had just committed suicide) you start to envision how such a traumatic event could have molded Mathewson...but then it is hardly mentioned again at all. When Big Six is stricken with diphtheria in the middle of a season and the nation is on pins and needles as to his condition, you never get an image as to how this near death experience affected Mathewson personally, only how it affected his fans and teammates. You also don’t get any real sense about how he viewed parenthood or his relationship with his son.
He remains a legend in Robinson’s book, and this is truly a shame since Robinson did show a knack for discovering the vivid personalities of some of the other Giants like John McGraw or “Turkey Mike” Donlin.
In the end Robinson’s book reminds me of the famous quote from the movie “The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance”.
“When the legend becomes fact...print the legend.”
On the plus side Robinson paints a vivid picture of a young sport emerging as an American pastime in the early years of the 20th century. He also weaves compelling and fascinating summaries of many of the New York Giants seasons that saw Big Six emerge as the most popular athlete in the sport.
But where he comes up short is in his portrayal of Mathewson. You very much get the impression that Mathewson was a man who valued his privacy and was keenly aware of his image and his reputation for morality and integrity. An adorning press seemed all to willing to add to the growing Mathewson myth. But Robinson appeared unable or unwilling to pierce the veil of the legend to find out who Big Six really was as a person. In the end Mathewson came off as a Godot like character in the book, a person who dominated the discussion but one you couldn’t even picture in your head or form an opinion of. And what was most disappointing about this failure was how close Robinson came to getting past the legend to discover who the man was. When Mathewson discovered the body of his younger brother (who had just committed suicide) you start to envision how such a traumatic event could have molded Mathewson...but then it is hardly mentioned again at all. When Big Six is stricken with diphtheria in the middle of a season and the nation is on pins and needles as to his condition, you never get an image as to how this near death experience affected Mathewson personally, only how it affected his fans and teammates. You also don’t get any real sense about how he viewed parenthood or his relationship with his son.
He remains a legend in Robinson’s book, and this is truly a shame since Robinson did show a knack for discovering the vivid personalities of some of the other Giants like John McGraw or “Turkey Mike” Donlin.
In the end Robinson’s book reminds me of the famous quote from the movie “The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance”.
“When the legend becomes fact...print the legend.”
August 19, 2021
A really good biography on Christy Matthewson, one of the very first superstars in baseball and one of the Top 5 pitchers of all time in my opinion. Ray Robinson, the author, does a great job of telling Mathewson's story and includes a little something about all his years as a New York Giant, as well as a Manager with the Reds and his time in WWI. A lot of these stories I've heard in other books or else this might have been a five-star book. A must read for baseball fans, especially those that love books on the game's early heroes.
April 13, 2023
It could've been a better deadball era book, but it quickly got annoying when every mention of John McGraw was a chance for the author to make an opinionated attack on his character. We all know McGraw was a rough and tough player and manager, but he was also one of the best managers in baseball history. The author put almost equal effort into tearing down McGraw than highlighting Christy Matthewson's career. He should've stuck more to the book's subject instead of showcasing his blatant dislike for John McGraw.
March 18, 2023
A book that doesn't measure up to the best baseball biographies published in the 21st century.
The best insight Robinson gave was Mathewson's observations of the 1919 World Series, as Matty pinpointed specific plays where he felt the White Sox were tanking (including one with the supposedly innocent Joe Jackson).
The best insight Robinson gave was Mathewson's observations of the 1919 World Series, as Matty pinpointed specific plays where he felt the White Sox were tanking (including one with the supposedly innocent Joe Jackson).
November 6, 2016
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