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A Discourse by Three Drunkards on Government
ADiscourse by Three Drunkards on Government takesthe form of a debate between a spokesman for Western ideals of democracy andprogress, and an advocate for adherence to traditional samurai values. Theirdiscussion is moderated by the imperturbable Master Nankai, who loves nothingmore than to drink and argue politics. The fiction of the drinking bout allowedChomin to debate freely topical political issues, in a discussion that offersan astute analysis of contemporary European politics and a prophetic vision ofJapan's direction. This lucid and precise translation of a delightful work hasbeen designated one of the UNESCO series of classics of world literature.
144 pages, Kindle Edition
First published January 1, 1989
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December 11, 2011
As a student of Japanese history, this is a fascinating book. Nakae Chomin wrote it around the time the Meiji Constitution was promulgated (a fuzzy memory says the book came out a few years after the constitution, about 1893).
The book is really a forum to explore the general political pathways Japan could follow at that important time in the nation's development. One character, the Champion, argues stridently that Japan should use its growing education and economy to seize territory in "a certain Asian nation nearby" (obviously China), which was at that time very weak, while Japanese strength was growing (indeed, the book was published only a few years before the Sino-Japanese War, a lopsided victory for the Japanese). Champion is clearly a conservative samurai, well aware that the Meiji Restoration was a revolt of some samurai against others, and while not exactly opposed to the samurai using the new national situation to educate the commoners, nevertheless Champion does not want the samurai to lose their traditional place as the leaders of the nation, or their proud warrior heritage.
The Gentleman takes the exact opposite position, wanting to pour all effort into increasing Japan's economy, standard of living, average education, and generally become more and more like the highly-developed nations of Europe -- but without the violent conflict with neighbors or wasting money on the military. The Gentleman in fact argues for a complete lack of a military and a dedication to pacifism, on the grounds that other countries (specifically Europe) would never allow such a noble idealistic nation to be invaded or attacked. Science, education, democracy, and economic progress were to be emphasized under the Gentleman's program, leading to greater prosperity for all.
Master Nankai, the fictional host of this drinking party, favors moderation, but without specifics. His is the shortest section, and the least developed.
What makes the book interesting is that over the subsequent sixty years, Japan would move from one course of action to the next, eventually hitting all three. While the Meiji Oligarchs (the Japanese equivalents to the US Founding Fathers) were still alive, the nation plotted Master Nankai's middle ground, building up an extremely well-respected military, which it used against China and Russia between 1894 and 1905 (during which this military received rave reviews on the international scene for its professionalism, magnanimity, and the humane way they treated civilians and prisoners), while also creating the most modern and comprehensive education system in the world.
Within a decade of the death of the last Meiji Oligarch, however, the military had seized control of the government due to the ambiguities written into the Meiji Constitution, leading to the ultra-militaristic 1930s and 1940s and the tragedies in Manchuria, China, and throughout the Pacific. The Champion at work.
Following the conclusion of WWII, however, the Gentleman got his way, aided and abetted (probably unintentionally) by MacArthur and his staff at SCAP. Article IX of the Showa Constitution provided Gentleman's wish for an official policy of pacifism, and other sections provided for all the educational and social reforms the Gentleman dreamed about, leading to the Japan of the modern day.
As the Japanese economy has been in a slump since the late '80s/early '90s, one might have expected the Gentleman's ideas for a peaceful, highly educated economic powerhouse to have been dashed, and certainly since the early '80s Japan has been proceeding with a very quiet military buildup (so quiet you have to look to notice it, but it's there). Additionally, Japan has been willing, for the first time since WWII, to deploy its military overseas -- though so far only for humanitarian purposes, even though even such admirable reasons are considered by many to be in violation of the Showa Constitution.
Is Master Nankai's ideology of "A little from column A, a little from column B" returning to Japan? Only time will tell. But this gem from the late 19th century has been a remarkable blueprint for the following hundred years of Japanese government policies.
The book is really a forum to explore the general political pathways Japan could follow at that important time in the nation's development. One character, the Champion, argues stridently that Japan should use its growing education and economy to seize territory in "a certain Asian nation nearby" (obviously China), which was at that time very weak, while Japanese strength was growing (indeed, the book was published only a few years before the Sino-Japanese War, a lopsided victory for the Japanese). Champion is clearly a conservative samurai, well aware that the Meiji Restoration was a revolt of some samurai against others, and while not exactly opposed to the samurai using the new national situation to educate the commoners, nevertheless Champion does not want the samurai to lose their traditional place as the leaders of the nation, or their proud warrior heritage.
The Gentleman takes the exact opposite position, wanting to pour all effort into increasing Japan's economy, standard of living, average education, and generally become more and more like the highly-developed nations of Europe -- but without the violent conflict with neighbors or wasting money on the military. The Gentleman in fact argues for a complete lack of a military and a dedication to pacifism, on the grounds that other countries (specifically Europe) would never allow such a noble idealistic nation to be invaded or attacked. Science, education, democracy, and economic progress were to be emphasized under the Gentleman's program, leading to greater prosperity for all.
Master Nankai, the fictional host of this drinking party, favors moderation, but without specifics. His is the shortest section, and the least developed.
What makes the book interesting is that over the subsequent sixty years, Japan would move from one course of action to the next, eventually hitting all three. While the Meiji Oligarchs (the Japanese equivalents to the US Founding Fathers) were still alive, the nation plotted Master Nankai's middle ground, building up an extremely well-respected military, which it used against China and Russia between 1894 and 1905 (during which this military received rave reviews on the international scene for its professionalism, magnanimity, and the humane way they treated civilians and prisoners), while also creating the most modern and comprehensive education system in the world.
Within a decade of the death of the last Meiji Oligarch, however, the military had seized control of the government due to the ambiguities written into the Meiji Constitution, leading to the ultra-militaristic 1930s and 1940s and the tragedies in Manchuria, China, and throughout the Pacific. The Champion at work.
Following the conclusion of WWII, however, the Gentleman got his way, aided and abetted (probably unintentionally) by MacArthur and his staff at SCAP. Article IX of the Showa Constitution provided Gentleman's wish for an official policy of pacifism, and other sections provided for all the educational and social reforms the Gentleman dreamed about, leading to the Japan of the modern day.
As the Japanese economy has been in a slump since the late '80s/early '90s, one might have expected the Gentleman's ideas for a peaceful, highly educated economic powerhouse to have been dashed, and certainly since the early '80s Japan has been proceeding with a very quiet military buildup (so quiet you have to look to notice it, but it's there). Additionally, Japan has been willing, for the first time since WWII, to deploy its military overseas -- though so far only for humanitarian purposes, even though even such admirable reasons are considered by many to be in violation of the Showa Constitution.
Is Master Nankai's ideology of "A little from column A, a little from column B" returning to Japan? Only time will tell. But this gem from the late 19th century has been a remarkable blueprint for the following hundred years of Japanese government policies.
October 17, 2022
Đặt bối cảnh đọc quyển sách này vào cuối thế kỷ 19-đầu thế kỷ 20, ta lập tức sẽ thấy nội dung của nó rất ưu việt, đặc sắc và tiến bộ vượt thời đại so với các nước khác trong khu vực châu Á. Trong khi nhiều quốc gia khác như Trung Quốc, Việt Nam,… lúc ấy vẫn đang muốn đóng cửa giữ nước với tinh thần trung quân của thời phong kiến trước làn sóng xâm nhập của châu Âu dẫn đến những cuộc chiến mất nước, thì ở Nhật trong quyển này đã bắt đầu bàn đến chế độ dân chủ hạn chế quyền của vua, nâng cao tính tự chủ và công dân, rồi bàn đến việc mở rộng khu vực giao thương để phát triển dân trí. Quả thật là rất tiến bộ!
Ba nhân vật “gã say” trong truyện gồm Nam Hải tiên sinh đại diện cho suy nghĩ của nước Nhật, còn vị khách tên Thân sĩ chủ trương chế độ dân chủ và những lý thuyết trọng nhân-văn, và vị khách được gọi Hào kiệt chủ trương võ bị quân đội hùng mạnh đều đại diện cho 2 luồng quan điểm “ngoại nhập” vào Nhật. Cả 3 bàn luận với nhau, ai nấy đều là diễn giả hùng hồn cho luận cứ của mình.
Nội dung trao đổi ngày càng thú vị và nhiều điều vẫn còn giá trị tham khảo cho đến tận ngày nay, ví như 1 trong 4 nguyên nhân của chiến tranh là muốn chiếm đất đai của nhau, hoặc suy nghiệm rằng các nước văn minh đều là những nước mạnh về quân đội,… Rất nhiều thông tin thời sự Đông-Tây lúc bấy giờ được đưa vào, chứng tỏ sự nắm bắt rất nhanh nhạy và sự phân tích sắc sảo của tác giả.
Một trong những ý mà tôi ấn tượng hơn cả là lời khuyên ở cuối sách, rằng không nên sao chép hẳn theo mô hình phát triển của phương Tây - mà lúc ấy đang là 1 thế lực bành trướng trên khắp thế giới. Tinh thần tự cường dân tộc thể hiện rõ trong những lời của Nam Hải tiên sinh.
Quyển sách có giá trị lịch sử quý để tham khảo về luồng tư tưởng chính trị của Nhật nói riêng, của dòng chảy lịch sử nói chung. Đọc những quyển sách như thế này, mỗi độc giả sẽ tìm thấy sự lặp lại nào đó của những bài học lịch sử, và biết đâu đó, tìm thấy điểm kết nối với tư tưởng tiền bối để tiếp tục phát triển theo cách riêng.
Ba nhân vật “gã say” trong truyện gồm Nam Hải tiên sinh đại diện cho suy nghĩ của nước Nhật, còn vị khách tên Thân sĩ chủ trương chế độ dân chủ và những lý thuyết trọng nhân-văn, và vị khách được gọi Hào kiệt chủ trương võ bị quân đội hùng mạnh đều đại diện cho 2 luồng quan điểm “ngoại nhập” vào Nhật. Cả 3 bàn luận với nhau, ai nấy đều là diễn giả hùng hồn cho luận cứ của mình.
Nội dung trao đổi ngày càng thú vị và nhiều điều vẫn còn giá trị tham khảo cho đến tận ngày nay, ví như 1 trong 4 nguyên nhân của chiến tranh là muốn chiếm đất đai của nhau, hoặc suy nghiệm rằng các nước văn minh đều là những nước mạnh về quân đội,… Rất nhiều thông tin thời sự Đông-Tây lúc bấy giờ được đưa vào, chứng tỏ sự nắm bắt rất nhanh nhạy và sự phân tích sắc sảo của tác giả.
Một trong những ý mà tôi ấn tượng hơn cả là lời khuyên ở cuối sách, rằng không nên sao chép hẳn theo mô hình phát triển của phương Tây - mà lúc ấy đang là 1 thế lực bành trướng trên khắp thế giới. Tinh thần tự cường dân tộc thể hiện rõ trong những lời của Nam Hải tiên sinh.
Quyển sách có giá trị lịch sử quý để tham khảo về luồng tư tưởng chính trị của Nhật nói riêng, của dòng chảy lịch sử nói chung. Đọc những quyển sách như thế này, mỗi độc giả sẽ tìm thấy sự lặp lại nào đó của những bài học lịch sử, và biết đâu đó, tìm thấy điểm kết nối với tư tưởng tiền bối để tiếp tục phát triển theo cách riêng.
February 22, 2023
interesting perspectives from both the traditionalists and the modernists during the meiji era. lengthy dialogue without much room to breathe, but that’s a part of the book’s charm.
September 24, 2025
Next time I go to the bar I’ll just start yapping to the guy next to me about the societal and governmental flaws of Meiji Japan
February 14, 2020
A brilliant synthesis of major European thinkers with Japanese and Chinese philosophy. Both Mister Gentleman’s and Mister Champion’ viewpoints are developed in depth, each with their own aesthetic strength, showing the ambiguity, promises, and anxieties of Japanese intellectuals post Meiji. The ending “compromise” shows that this text is a wonderful companion to understand the simultaneously revolutionary and reactionary elements of the Meiji Restoration and its leading figures, simultaneously “traditional” and “western.” The ambiguity of the dialogue, the seemingly Socratic style in an unfamiliar setting, and the driving force of alcohol for the conversation make this a great global text of the 19th century.
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April 16, 2007as Japan enters the modern world, a debate ranges between two students and a teacher on the societal ramifications due to "technological progress" while getting drunk. If you want to skip the book, just meet up with me, Jorge, and Biondi one night. Same thing.
April 6, 2025
Feeling threatened by outsiders in the late 1800s (the European imperial powers) two Japanese, The Gentleman of Western Learning and the Champion, have a monologous debate. One can consider the host, the Master, as the moderator "debate." Though many of the statements are tongue in cheek, such as the Gentleman rhetorically asking why the weak nations don't "voluntarily and firmly dismiss their soldiers, dissolve their fleets, and choose peace?," the dilemma all Japanese patriots such as Chomin faced was quite real. Chomin was perfectly aware of the power of the West and feared that when the opportunity presented itself "thousands of battleships will invade the seas of Asia." In fact Chomin seems prescient in his expectation that the European arms buildup and million-man armies of Russia and Germany would lead to war. As the Champion puts it, "the situation is as dangerous as a pile of explosives rolling about on the ground." The Champion goes so far as to equate civilization with military prowess, citing ancient precedents and the fact that Europe's "most advanced civilization" is linked with its "most superior armaments" and its strength in war. He claims that "war is a thermometer that tests the strength of a civilization."
There are however some reasonable observations made as well: although there were other causes, Chomin has the Gentleman assert that "great principle of liberty was the true foundation" of Western colossal structure. He also recommends repealing "protective tariffs so as to remove the ills of economic jealousy, strike down all laws regulating speech, publication and freedom of association ...." The Gentleman scoffs at the Champion's desire to take over a larger nation to quickly increase its power; presumably China was his target but the Champion claims not to recall its name. Some of the extreme opinions expressed can be viewed as a reaction to the extreme fear and paranoia that some if not many Japanese felt about their vulnerability to Western powers and the possibility of ending up as a colony. Nevertheless, that hardly excuses their attempt at preemptive colonization of Korea, Japan and Taiwan (invaded in 1874). The master, I guess representing Chomin, concludes that "in discussing such a topic as the master plan for our country's next hundred years, how could we amuse ourselves by consciously seeking the bizarre or by stressing novelty for its own sake?"
There are however some reasonable observations made as well: although there were other causes, Chomin has the Gentleman assert that "great principle of liberty was the true foundation" of Western colossal structure. He also recommends repealing "protective tariffs so as to remove the ills of economic jealousy, strike down all laws regulating speech, publication and freedom of association ...." The Gentleman scoffs at the Champion's desire to take over a larger nation to quickly increase its power; presumably China was his target but the Champion claims not to recall its name. Some of the extreme opinions expressed can be viewed as a reaction to the extreme fear and paranoia that some if not many Japanese felt about their vulnerability to Western powers and the possibility of ending up as a colony. Nevertheless, that hardly excuses their attempt at preemptive colonization of Korea, Japan and Taiwan (invaded in 1874). The master, I guess representing Chomin, concludes that "in discussing such a topic as the master plan for our country's next hundred years, how could we amuse ourselves by consciously seeking the bizarre or by stressing novelty for its own sake?"
March 19, 2024
So this is the first piece of political philosophy I've voluntarily read since finishing my undergrad and lo and behold it was actually pretty good. Western political philosophers should take notes- political philosophy is far more engaging to read when its presented in the form of a debate between two drunks, moderated by an alcoholic.
Unlike other political philosophy books I've read, I was actually able to make sense of the ideas discussed within A discourse, and the overall metaphor of the debate as a vehicle to discuss the future of Japan's political system post-Meiji restoration. The debate between the Gentleman and Champion also serves as a effective summary of European philosophical thinkers with some Japanese and Chinese philosophy.
Anyways, my knowledge of Japanese history from this period is pretty shaky, until about the 1920s with the rise of Imperial Japan- real world events which parallel many of the ideas discussed by the character of the champion in the book.
Unlike other political philosophy books I've read, I was actually able to make sense of the ideas discussed within A discourse, and the overall metaphor of the debate as a vehicle to discuss the future of Japan's political system post-Meiji restoration. The debate between the Gentleman and Champion also serves as a effective summary of European philosophical thinkers with some Japanese and Chinese philosophy.
Anyways, my knowledge of Japanese history from this period is pretty shaky, until about the 1920s with the rise of Imperial Japan- real world events which parallel many of the ideas discussed by the character of the champion in the book.
December 24, 2024
The book that got me interested in reading. It is an excellent story. This is mentioned in the preface, but I really enjoyed how human everyone sounds. They have their own contradictions, sarcastic remarks, and jokes. I really can not recommend this book enough to anyone with a passing interest in politics or government. Fair warning though. It is a decently small book, but it is a thinker. It took me a while to get through, because I would often just sit and ponder the points made.
Additionally, hats off to Chomin here. I was initially under the impression that someone would serve as a voice of wisdom, but I was surprised to see that I was wrong. That really showed his discipline and intellectual honesty when making this piece. If I could give it six stars, I would.
Additionally, hats off to Chomin here. I was initially under the impression that someone would serve as a voice of wisdom, but I was surprised to see that I was wrong. That really showed his discipline and intellectual honesty when making this piece. If I could give it six stars, I would.
September 27, 2018
Nakae Chomin's work, when considered in the context in which it was written in, feels at times like an insight into the future of Meiji era Japan and a satirical approach to some of the elements its political spherw held within. For a student of politcal science and Meiji Japan, I believe that this is a wonderful short discourse which holds much within it.
One piece of advice while reading this book is to skip the entire introduction, and reading it after the actual book, because it explains and thus spoils the book in just 23 pages.
One piece of advice while reading this book is to skip the entire introduction, and reading it after the actual book, because it explains and thus spoils the book in just 23 pages.
November 13, 2022
Sau Khuyến học của Fukuzawa Yukichi thì đây là cuốn thứ 2 khiến mình cảm phục tư tưởng đi trước thời đại của các nhà dân quyền Nhật Bản thời bấy giờ. Phải công nhận một điều là cuốn này rất dễ đọc dù nội dung bao hàm cả chính trị, kinh tế lẫn lịch sử... thế giới; thậm chí nhiều bài học về chiến tranh - hòa bình hay đường lối ngoại giao của các quốc gia vẫn còn giá trị đến tận hôm nay. Rate 4.5*, trừ một chút vì những sự kiện ít nổi bật được nhắc đến trong này chỉ giải thích qua loa, làm trải nghiệm đọc của mình bị gián đoạn đôi chút vì cứ phải tra mạng liên tục :'(
February 27, 2023
I had to read this book for a class I'm taking but I still thought it was a pretty good book in terms of history. It was very very basic & easy to understand & didn't run along with giant words you had to look up. It provided very different views of things & made it easy to understand even with little knowledge on the overall background. I thought it could have been broken up better because it does drag the way it's written but other than that I enjoyed it!
March 1, 2023
This book was absolutely delightful to read. The introduction by the translator sets up the text well and it is a pleasure to read. The style is engaging, the wit is funny, and the issues explored are nearly universal. A fictional debate between three drunken learned men in 1880s Japan still feels very relevant to me today in the 21st century. And the writing style is so enjoyable, it puts it up there for me as one of the most interesting pieces in the genre of philosophical dialogue.
February 18, 2025
More 3.5 really. I think the title that it’s a discourse is misleading bc it’s primarily a monologue rather than a discourse. There are great arguments within written in a way that is easy enough to understand, but at times it definitely drags on.
May 29, 2020
Đọc ung cả thủ.
September 21, 2021
really makes you want to get drunk and discuss politics
April 1, 2022
Sách hay, xứng đáng đọc nhiều lần.
May 21, 2022
politics for dummies. fascinating.
January 9, 2024
A good start to Japanuary, a very funny and light hearted read with a thought provoking conclusion for all activist.
March 23, 2024
Ndunh sâu xa đọc khó hiểu
December 10, 2024
What a lovely discussion on political philosophy and the future of Meiji Japan! Surely nothing bad would ever come out of it right?
February 11, 2025
Read for class this semester. I thought the writing style was annoying and there are easier more effective ways to communicate in a similar style, yet convey the same message.
April 26, 2017
Ah, what a discourse it is!
Rousseau of the Orient, Nakae Chomin was a strong advocate of popular rights, democracy and equality in late nineteenth century Japan. Chomin wrote the book in the early years of the Meji era (1868-1912), which followed the the long period of Japan's feudal isolation.
It is his comprehensible metamorphosis of Mr. Gentleman and Mr.Champion, blended with Confucian terminology and with the thought of Rousseau, at whole is an ironically delighted novel with Master Nankai, the host of his two guests, enlightened in their ideas . Its a discourse of government as its title marks out.
Mr Gentleman is the idealistic man who wants to implement democracy in the World with its guiding features of Liberty, equality and Fraternity whereas Mr Champion is the man who loves war not of his personal inclinations but because nations defence and future depends on it.
A banter of novelty and nostalgia we go through (i love the most) with its psychological orders. The most cherished peculiarity for me is a space of ideas in every paragraph for its peruser. Master Nankai,a character who lives in 'vastness' , although a judgemental one but doesn't know the course of future in many cases, i reckon. Its not an ill-effect of the novel but a peculiarity in todays age of flourished enlightenment which perhaps couldn't be in the age of its compilation.
Things must be in a proper order in Time. Timelessness and Casual relations play a vital role in the governmental affairs as does in human affairs. A suitable time for the 'god of evolution' is necessary.
Its political philosophy with literary masterpiece is off-kilter, indeed.
Rousseau of the Orient, Nakae Chomin was a strong advocate of popular rights, democracy and equality in late nineteenth century Japan. Chomin wrote the book in the early years of the Meji era (1868-1912), which followed the the long period of Japan's feudal isolation.
It is his comprehensible metamorphosis of Mr. Gentleman and Mr.Champion, blended with Confucian terminology and with the thought of Rousseau, at whole is an ironically delighted novel with Master Nankai, the host of his two guests, enlightened in their ideas . Its a discourse of government as its title marks out.
Mr Gentleman is the idealistic man who wants to implement democracy in the World with its guiding features of Liberty, equality and Fraternity whereas Mr Champion is the man who loves war not of his personal inclinations but because nations defence and future depends on it.
A banter of novelty and nostalgia we go through (i love the most) with its psychological orders. The most cherished peculiarity for me is a space of ideas in every paragraph for its peruser. Master Nankai,a character who lives in 'vastness' , although a judgemental one but doesn't know the course of future in many cases, i reckon. Its not an ill-effect of the novel but a peculiarity in todays age of flourished enlightenment which perhaps couldn't be in the age of its compilation.
Things must be in a proper order in Time. Timelessness and Casual relations play a vital role in the governmental affairs as does in human affairs. A suitable time for the 'god of evolution' is necessary.
Its political philosophy with literary masterpiece is off-kilter, indeed.
December 10, 2018
This is an interesting glimpse into a major debate in Japan's history. Isolationism, Westernization, or pan-Asianism is debated by the various characters. The dialogue can be sometimes confusing, but it is overall very informative and a quick read. The Master's conclusion is dissatisfying for both of the gentlemen in the story and the reader, but it displays the tension that existed in Japan at the era that this was written.
It is not something I would read for fun, necessarily, but definitely a good addition to my collection on Asian history and politics.
It is not something I would read for fun, necessarily, but definitely a good addition to my collection on Asian history and politics.
October 1, 2016
Terjemahan Indonesia buku ini (terbitan Gramedia Pustaka Utama) secara tak-sengaja saya temukan di Perpustakaan Daerah Provinsi Jawa Tengah. Buku tipis yang unik.
Isinya tentang kisah tiga orang pemabuk yang mempercakapkan situasi politik (dan hal-hal lain) dunia, waktu itu. Buat mereka yang tengah melakukan studi Jepang, tentu buku ini akan banyak bermanfaat. Namun, buat orang awam, buku ini juga bermakna sebagai koleksi buku klasik dari penulis Jepang kontemporer.
Isinya tentang kisah tiga orang pemabuk yang mempercakapkan situasi politik (dan hal-hal lain) dunia, waktu itu. Buat mereka yang tengah melakukan studi Jepang, tentu buku ini akan banyak bermanfaat. Namun, buat orang awam, buku ini juga bermakna sebagai koleksi buku klasik dari penulis Jepang kontemporer.
March 28, 2014
menarik. negara kecil dan miskin yang kekayaannya lebih sering habis untuk foya-foya penguasa dan revitalisasi akibat bencana alam, pada masa itu nakae chomin memunculkan ide untuk menduduki "negara kaya yang malas " untuk bersiap mempertahankan diri ketika perang meletus. ditulis tahun 1893, dan terjadi pada perang dunia 2.
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November 15, 2013320 N1631 1984
November 7, 2014
Read this for my Japanese history class. Educational, but incredibly dry. Not my thing.
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