When the Dark Knight suspects a modern-day rock-and-roll icon of masterminding a nationwide crime spree using teenaged fans as his henchmen, Batman runs into unexpected opposition from an unexpected source: his own ward, Robin. Certain that his idol is not guilty, Dick Grayson sets out to uncover a bizarre and elaborate frame-up in this dazzlingly illustrated graphic novel.
Gerard Jones is an award-winning American author and comic book writer. From 1987 to 2001, Jones wrote many comic books for Marvel Comics, DC Comics, Dark Horse Comics, Viz Media, Malibu Comics and other publishers; including Green Lantern, Justice League, Prime, Ultraforce, El Diablo, Wonder Man, Martian Manhunter, Elongated Man, The Shadow, Pokémon, and Batman.
Jones is author of the Eisner Award-winning Men of Tomorrow: Geeks, Gangsters, and the Birth of the Comic Book (2004); Killing Monsters: Why Children Need Fantasy, Superheroes and Make-Believe Violence (2002), and Honey I'm Home: Sitcoms Selling the American Dream (1993). Jones is co-author with Will Jacobs of The Beaver Papers (1983), The Comic Book Heroes (1985, 1996), and the comic book The Trouble with Girls (1987-1993). From 1983 to 1988, Jacobs and Jones were contributors to National Lampoon magazine. He and Jacobs began writing humorous fiction again in 2008 with the online series My Pal Splendid Man and Million Dollar Ideas
Umm well..shit. When I saw this comic I was very excited. I even showed it to my friend. He asked me why I was so excited. "Dude, the guy from the 300 wrote this!" "What?" "Gerard Jones. Leonidas from the 300." "Butler. Gerard BUTLER."
Thus were my dreams dashed. They were dashed even further when I came to the realization that Gerard Butler would have written a better story. What the hell just happened?
Firstly the title of "Fortunate Son" should give you a hint of the musical hijinks to come. Um Fortunate Son is a song by Creedence Clearwater Revival. It's good. This comic isn't. It concerns a crazy rocker who thinks he speaks to a messianic Elvis like figure and this rocker is off leading the youth to umm rock out. Oh I also learned that Batman HATES rock. He even has some weird psycho-bable to justify it. I'm amazed Gerard Butler..shit, sorry..Gerard Jones...didn't drop some Jungian philosophy or some Schopenhauer on us. But..anyways Batman HATES rock. Robin, who is an immature toolbag in this story, LOVES rock. He'd rather be a rocker than umm Robin. Did I mention Batman HATES rock? Anyways in between various soliloquies by the Pro-Rock crowd about the joys and wonders of Rock music and Batman's random ravings about the various and sundry Ills of rock-the Caped Crusaders chase around the rockster. *sigh* Seriously? They made this into a comic. Not even realizing how terrible this story is, they even took time in the end to discuss how brilliant this putrid idea was. It wasn't. Brilliant. The arts ok though. But brilliant? No. If Gerard BUTLER had written this, then it would be brilliant. Not recommended for fans of the movie 300 or Olympus has Fallen. Not recommended for Batman fans either. Nor comic fans. Rockers may find something to like though.
One of the most ridiculous stories involving the Batman done by someone other than Frank Miller himself. I'm quite surprised that a plot like this was even approved for release. Batman and Robin (Dick Grayson) argue over a rock star's intentions and the genre itself? This is one of the few adventures in the early days of Batman, and a little after Robin becomes his sidekick. The story was filled with an over-saturated amount of absurd and unnecessary lyrics. Some panels were filled with text that just had no good purpose at all. The artwork was average (Robin really looks funny with his lips standing out like that; while Batman's costume really... doesn't look fear-inducing at all). There are even lines in this where they start to make a joke out of Batman; I just couldn't enjoy much of this at all.
This was definitely a weird Batman tale. It barely even had the dynamic duo in it's 90 pages. It felt like it had a more ideological purpose regarding rock-and-roll, than telling a good story with Batman and Robin in the front seat.
Seriously?!!? How on earth did this get past the drunken brainstorming stage? Here's the plot, Batman and Robin seriously argue over a "Rock 'N Roll" singer and whether he's bad for society while his evil manager manipulates him into craziness. We get a flashback to Bruce's early pre-Batman days and see why he hates punk music. And spoiler.......the manager is Elvis Pressley's (or the DC version) twin brother!! I can't believed I just typed that. Ridiculous stuff that would have been hilarious if it wasn't meant to be serious. The art by Gene Ha was decent despite Batman super pointy ears. Overall, there is no reason to read this unless you just don't believe that it actually exists.
Gerard Jones and Gene Ha collaborate to mesh the world of the Dark Knight with musical culture. The premise of the graphic novel sees Batman and Robin (Dick Grayson) at odds over a case involving famous musician Isaak Crowe. A down-and-out rock-and-roll star, Crowe seems to be inspiring a new generation of disenchanted youth to commit crimes in his name. While Batman has no doubt that the spree begins and ends with Crowe, Robin defies his mentor and looks for a way to prove his idol's innocence. The end result is a hodgepodge of a thinly-veiled Elvis love letter. The writing is poor, attempting ti shove in as many musical genres and lyrics as possible in an attempt to seem hip and relevant. Batman's portrayal as a gruff father figure who disapproves of modern musical tastes - stemming from a punk rocker incident, no less - is typecasting at its worst. Naturally, Robin is played up as the groovy kid capable of understanding this era's music better than his mentor, and using it to fuel his teenaged rebellion. Toss in paper-thin Elvis references to plague Corwe, a scheming manager, and an Arkham Asylum cameos of musical genres, and this book fizzles out entirely. Forget being a one-hit wonder; Fortunate Son is an album flop.
There is a well-used, probably overused, phrase often heard these days. That phrase is HOT MESS, and it perfectly describes this book. Holy WTF?, Batman!
Wow, I simply want to know what they were smoking / downing / popping when DC put this on the market as the 20th century came to a close. Actually, forget that - the fact that this made it past the proverbial drawing board stage is mind-boggling.
And yet . . . I was enjoyably laughing at some of the awfulness, or maybe it was just outright strangeness (the brainwashed mob storming Graceland immediately comes to mind), of what I was seeing / reading in some scenes.
As a sincere fan of Elvis, the various '27 Club' musicians, and other deceased performers (who are alluded to throughout by illustration and/or inference) maybe I should be more insulted with the trashing of their personas. Like watching a horror movie when I was a youngster, I just remind myself that it's not real, only make believe.
The one thing this book was missing was the old chestnut about playing a rock song backwards to hear and be influenced by a satanic message. Somebody missed a bet on failing to include that urban legend.
Tohle nevyhrává s přehledem bizár roku ale dost možná i ten nejdivnější co jsem kdy četl. Příběh se zaobírá tím jak Batman s Robinem řeší rock and roll. To, že někomu přišlo jako dobrý nápad to vydat mě fascinuje, pořád si nejsem jistý do jak moc velký míry si autor dělá prdel a jak moc to myslí vážně. Prakticky tohle má jediný důvod existence, Jonesovi je Batman a Robin u řitě, chce si prostě napsat příběh o rocku. Kresba je takový klon Dillona, čili k pozvracení. Totální peklo.
I admit to not being a huge Batman fan, so perhaps I'm not the best judge of a Batman comic... but boy howdy, is this one terrible. I happened upon it in a list of terrible comic books, and the premise sounded so insane that I knew I had to give it a read myself. I'm not sure how wise that was, because this comic was bad, but not in the so-bad-it's-entertaining way. Sure, it's downright goofy and insane at times, but the sheer stupidity and ineptness of this title, coupled with mediocre art and downright incomprehensible dialogue, make it not worth the read even for the laughs factor.
"Batman: Fortunate Son" has the Caped Crusader and his sidekick, Robin, facing off not against any of Batman's usual suspects (The Joker, The Riddler, Two-Face, Mr. Freeze, Catwoman), but against a famous rock musician who seems to have gone off the deep end. Said rock musician, disillusioned with his fame and popularity and seeking some kind of return to the "true meaning of rock," has amassed a makeshift army of teenage followers who wreak havoc across the country as the musician himself follows his own hallucinations of the "God" of rock -- strongly implied to be Elvis Presley but not named for copyright reasons. Batman, driven by a personal vendetta against rock music, sets out to stop him... but finds himself butting heads with his own sidekick, as well as tangling with the musician's manager who has his own nefarious plans...
One of the key components in any graphic novel is the art, so let's get that out of the way first. This is not the worst artwork I've ever seen in a graphic novel... but it sure is ugly nonetheless. Expressions are exaggerated to cartoonish levels, action sequences are hard to follow, and the panel layout tends to be confusing and hard to follow. Some of the facial close-ups are downright grotesque, with weird facial expressions and lip curls. It's servicable, but barely so.
The writing in this graphic novel is awful. The dialogue is so clumsy it's nearly incomprehensible -- I often had to re-read passages to be sure of what the characters were saying. Often it feels like the dialogue was written in the style of rock lyrics, which is silly, as most people do NOT talk in rock lyrics in real life. As for the actual rock lyrics we do get... they're even worse. The story itself is hard to follow, jumping from one weird point to another and pausing in weird places to allow Batman to rant about how rock music turns people into violent psychopaths and rock played a role in killing his parents and ruining his life (yes, really). There's even a scene of Batman dragging Robin to Arkham Asylum to show him how most of the classic Batman rogues' gallery are rock fans. It's like Jack Chick wrote a Batman comic and hijacked it to write a screed about the evils of rock and roll.
And even though I'm not a huge Batman fan, I know enough about the character to feel like he's being portrayed quite out of character here. Not only does he do most of his sleuthing and crime-fighting in broad daylight in this cartoon, but he frequently brings the plot to a screeching halt to ramble about the evils of rock music, and it feels like he plays very little role in actually stopping the crazed musician or his evil manager. When Robin the Boy Wonder does more to solve the mysteries of the plot and bring about some kind of resolution than the Caped Crusader himself, you know there's a problem.
The most ludicrous part of this graphic novel is that, according to an afterward by the creators, it was supposed to be a TRIBUTE to rock and roll. I'm not sure how a graphic novel that messes up Batman's backstory, renders him out of character, and paints all fans and creators of rock and roll as dangerous psychopaths is supposed to be a tribute. This graphic novel won't appeal to much of anyone -- Batman fans, comic fans, rock and roll fans, or readers in general. If you're interested in an insane oddity in the Batman mythos, this might be worth a few bucks, but I recommend skipping it for your own sanity.
I had completely forgotten this since reading it upon publication. Finding it at the library, it's ok, a Batman and Robin meet rock and roll story in 80+ pages that might have appeared in one twenty comic book issue written by Mike Friedrich, Frank Robbins, or Denny O'Neil circa 1970-1971. That said, I rally like the work of this writer and artist here. Gerry Jones throws some nice allusions and nods to critic Dave Marsh, to an Elvis-like character only with hair disturbingly blond, even a broad portrayal of Bruce Wayne tied up with Sid Viscious and Nancy Spungeon. (!) Robin gets the best bits here, as a teenage music fan. Gene Ha's Batman is credible, different, a realistic version of the 1939-style costume and a modern Batmobile, with the cowl eye-slits wide open, not opaque, making for a rather different portrayal. It works. The musicians and managers portrayed are mawkish and don't work so well. Supporting characters don't work much, but the Batman, Robin, and Gotham scenes are well done, and worth reading. The sweetest bit is an afterward, dedicated to editor and great spirit Archie Goodwin, much missed. This was among the last projects he commissioned, and it's a sweet rememberance. I loved Goodwin's yearlong run on Detective Comics, 1973-4, introducing Jim Aparo on Batman's solo adventures, as well as great artists including Alex Toth, and Walt Simonson's work with him on Manhunter. This book is recommended for fans of Batman and these fine creators.
As a Batman completist, you take the good with the bad. This would be one of the bad: Robin really likes this rock singer, who is lame, unimpressive, and is seeing hallucinations of Elvis telling him to destroy the Hollywood money-making machine via violence and mobs of his teenage fans. Batman hates music, especially punk music since it is heavily implied here that he was present but unable to stop Sid Vicious from killing what's-her-face. Nancy, right. You might be what-the-fuckin' already, but it gets better. Robin actually leaves the musically unappreciative Batman who secludes himself in the rock n' roll hall of fame to study the mystery of music to stop said possessed rock singer. No shit. And this was written in 1999. This isn't some wacky Silver Age tale where Batman and Egg Fu battle it out atop a giant alien kitchen appliance. Worst modern Batman story ever? Yes.
Well, this was awful. The plot is ridiculous and doesn't work at all, Batman is essentially useless, and spends all his time looking very silly, prancing about in broad daylight. Batman and Robin are so completely out of character, you want to slap them.
Okay, so I was at the mall with my friends. We were playing video games and hanging out at this cool store that sells comic books and stuff. The usual. At the store I saw this one-shot that focused on the early days where Batman and Robin/Dick Grayson tried to stop drug addicted rock idol named Izaak Crowe who was hallucinating other singers from drugs and we all thought it would be so cool and stuff and I read the first twenty pages. Then, I felt SO freaking bad for all my friends, so I had to spend the night with one of them at their apartment and I wanted to read the graphic novel and so he read it with me and, to sum it all up, together we lost about forty brain cells each. I cannot tell you how atrocious this graphic novel was.
So the plot goes something like this: During the early days of crimefighting and having a ward of his own, Batman investigated a drug addicted rock idol, Izaak Crowe, who is masterminding a nationwide crime spree using teenaged fans as his henchmen, Batman runs into unexpected opposition from an unexpected source: his own ward, Robin/Dick Grayson. Certain that Izaak is not guilty, Robin sets out to uncover this bizarre and elaborate frame-up.
So you thought Batman & Robin was THAT bad? This 1999 one-shot is somehow even worse. And what's it really called? Fortunate Son? Should've been named UN-Fortunate Son is much more like it. Also, the title implies that it's about a fortunate son--that is, either a rich, wealthy boy or a man. Nope, it's all about a drug-addicted rock idol named Izaak Crowe which should have actually been something called Batman: Rock Idol, Punk Rocker, Singin’ Son or Rock 'N' Roll (I love those titles are awesome). It's also insulting to the original CCR song, besides. The cover also depicts Batman and Robin are investigating a theater which has the "Fortunate Son" title on the billboard, nope it's also doesn't have anything to do in the comic's story.
And speaking of, it's a dumb, yet ridiculous story revolving around the "evils" of music and how it affects rock idols that led them to do "evil" things, with terrible writing that is tries to show the "evils" of music in a dumb-ass way. It even depicts music is nothing more than a "realistic" demonic drug that was basically inspired by real-life people, but only dumb to say. The message for real-life demographics is very bad such as money is only needed to survive and even tries to paint music as a demonic force by the hands of drugs. In fact, the author of this graphic novel, Gerald Jones, presumably must have no experience of what music is or it's effect on society, but he meant it as a "tribute" to music.
This thing gets rather boring, ridiculous and uninteresting, and the tone is utterly nonsensical if it was some black comedy. Gene Ha's artwork, while passable at least, is wasted with an attempt of trying to be realistic such as Robin's contorted face that looks like he's fifty years old for crying out loud and Batman's "bunny rabbit" ears in his "bat-esque" ears of his mask. Some filler scenes exist, too, such as when Batman tries to investigate in Arkham Asylum and leaves from the inmates talking much about music being evil. Even the dialogue is nothing but absurd and nonsensical, with Batman describing music by saying, "'Punk' is nothing but death...and crime...and the rage of a beast"? OK, so what the hell is that supposed to mean?
In fact, Batman is out of character who thinks rock music itself is evil and tries to study Izaak Crowe. When before becoming a crimefighter, Batman states music is evil when he witnessed a punk bass player killing his girlfriend for no reason inspired from the real-life punk rock bassist, Sid Vicious. This incident led Batman to consider rock idols and musicians as "beasts" who commit "death and crime". When he read his lyrics, he sees quote in the lyrics that affected his mental health was "Pigs from a gun!" Robin, on the other hand, is the only decent character who doesn't believe that Izaak Crowe is crazy.
Some villains like the Joker, the Riddler, Two-Face, and others from Arkham Asylum barely served any purpose to the story as they talk about music being evil. Speaking of the Riddler, an inmate is locked under the name of "Jack Napier", but based on the design, the character seems to be Riddler. Furthermore, on other pages Riddler is seen locked under the name of "Edward Nigma".
Izaak Crowe is some generic drug addict, who hallucinates rock idols like a blonde man resembling the late Elvis Presley due to such drugs and tried to get away from his manager, Roy Lazarus, who is trying to keep Izaak off drugs. He goes as far as to bomb a music studio and a CD store for "selling him out" from his albums as well as giving said albums to people for free along with finding the corpse of the deceased Elvis Presley-lookalike and try to use his guitar against police officers. He never learns his lesson until he dies. The reveal that Lazarus being the mastermind using singer impersonators to set Izaak Crowe up to kill him for PROFITS makes no sense, and possibly one of the worst plot twists in this comic. His motivations of why he did this is uncertain when he commited suicide. I'm surprised if they don't even read the book themselves.
The ending never accomplishes anything of what makes music "evil" from Batman and is forgotten afterwards, and, just like other Batman comics, this comic itself is quite forgettable and is never mentioned or revisited (besides anothermusic-relatedBatman story).
I give this graphic novel only two stars for the only two redeemers: the artwork, as mentioned earlier, is passable at least and Robin, as I have said, has the right idea at least; however, it inspired me to keep writing awesome comic books. Ha, Fortunate Son, how about we need a fortunate life son...
This entire review has been hidden because of spoilers.
I did not know what this book was about when I started reading it but since the title of the book is Batman: Fortunate Son and Batman and Robin are on the front cover, I thought this book was going to focus on Batman’s relationship with Robin, i.e., how he has become a father figure to Dick Grayson. Unfortunately (pardon the pun), that is not the case. How this story came to be is explained by Gerard Jones and Gene Ha in the afterword. It turns out that Archie Goodwin approached Jones and Ha and suggested a rock-and-roll Batman story.
The story is about a rockstar, Izaak Crowe, who feels like he is being taken advantage of by the system. Batman hates rock music and thinks Crowe is a criminal and a bad influence on the youth. It turns out that Batman’s hatred for rock music is deeply rooted in his childhood. He tried to listen to rock music once before they left the house to watch Zorro (ugh), but his dad told him that he was not allowed to listen to that type of music. Yes, that is canon! On the other hand, Robin is a rock-and-roll fan and acts like a Crowe groupie. Batman and Robin have a heated argument wherein Robin acts like a petulant child.
This book has got to be one of the worst, if not the worst, Batman books I have ever read. Batman and rock-and-roll do not go well together. The story was too forced as Jones focused more on incorporating rock-and-roll into a Batman story rather than telling a good story. I am also not a fan of Ha’s art in this book. Seeing Batman’s eyeballs while wearing the cowl makes Batman seem human and less fearsome. I am sure that is not the look that he is going for.
This is such a messy story: I picked it up randomly at the library and noticed the low rating once I got home, but figured I would read it anyway. I definitely agree with the majority here.
The conflict really comes off more like a Scooby-Doo plot with how cheesy it is. There's a lot of lecturing about the dangers of rock and roll that's comparable to today's debate on video games, which comes off especially poorly since neither have been linked to increasing bad behavior in participants.
The story focused way too much on one-time characters and what development they did have was confusing. The only part I really liked was Robin contrasting how he and Batman grew up, but that was barely touched on.
The story tries to hold a theme of rebellion, but it's a bunch of privileged kids fighting because they can. There's no heart to this story, and I don't see how we're supposed to sympathize for a mentally ill terrorist (something common we see today).
Ayep...just as bad as the legends say. Given the publication date I have a suspicion Izaak Crowe is supposed to be a Kurt Cobain expy (also, Evangeline Dove/Courtney Love...yeah, that's about as subtle as a clown sticking his cock in your eye) and dear lord, neither him nor Elvis died for this crap. I wish I could even give this a one-star rating as I do have a soft spot for tragic stories about stars being screwed over by The System, but the artwork is beyond hideous (special-as-in-special-bus mention to the lips and jaws, egads), everyone's dumb as a sack of wet hammers, and of course Batman and Robin having no relevance but y'all knew that already. I'ma go reread Godspeed: The Kurt Cobain Graphic as a cleanse.
Admirably insane, I guess, and there's a small chance this is some sort of brilliant parody or self-aware celebration of how asinine superhero comics are. Maybe I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth after praising the 40s and 50s comics for being cheerfully addlebrained, but I'm not sure what to say about a comic where Batman and Robin pursue a troubled rock star who hallucinates a golden haired Elvis who prompts him to start a grassroots movement/cult/mob of teenagers to like bring down the man or something, and a rift forms between Batman and Robin because Batman hates rock music because when he was a young man he failed to stop Sid Vicious from killing Nancy Spungen. Might be an anti-rock music screed, or a nuanced exploration of generational divisions over music, or a satire of either of things things, but none are a good idea for a Batman comic, and I can't say I enjoyed reading it. Maybe worth reading, however, if only to ponder it.
I have many friends who are musicians. From blues, jazz, rock, and even death metal. And I tell them all about this comic...SO THEY CAN SEE HOW STUPID IT IS. It's a "rock fable" (if you can call it that...)that demonizes rock music, and fails to make any kind of point what so ever with it's tries to be poetic, meaningful, and smart! Stupid, boring, and insulting to anyone who plays rock music, or listens to it! The "Tormented artist" is a whiny little shit who just complains about everything in a quest of some kind to be....uh..."Real"? Robin is poorly written, coming off as useless as he was back in the older comics, and Batman...He hates rock music for the reason that...get this. "We don't listen to that kind of music here, Bruce. now get dressed if you don't want to miss..that zorro movie." Really....and it gets dumber, and dumber. Stay away from this stinker.
I don't understand how some books get into publishing. This comic book is one of those. I read it and got nothing out of it. The story is ludicrous. Basically Batman thinks Rock'n'Roll is the devils work while Robin disagrees. They argue about it and seperate while there is that one big bad rocker on drugs who thinks he's God and has to force everybody into buying his banned record. Because everyone thinks Rock'n'Roll is the devils work even Two-Face and Joker talk about it. The big danger in this book seems to be Joker clinging onto Batmans costume (which illustration I don't like). The only funny part, in my library book somebody crossed every "God" out and replaced it with "small" ("He is God!"/"He is small!").
I think we all have some form of love for rock music. Batman's little history lesson on the birth of rock music was kinda cool. Kinda. But the plot that made no sense wasn't. The layout of panels as it they were drunk? Not so cool. I understand that they made it all chaotic to display a chaotic story but it didn't have a story to be chaotic for. The writer clearly doesn't have any understanding of what Batman is as a character. Oh, and the little Easter egg in Arkham of Jack Napier in a cell across from the Joker? That made no sense. Clearly the writer had no knowledge of the Batman mythos.
This entire review has been hidden because of spoilers.
Just not a great Batman and Robin story; using music in a super hero story has to be right and Fortunate Son was not it. Batman being against rock music because it played a minor role in his parents deaths and a tragic time in his adolescence? I just don't buy it. Gene Ha's art was good just did not like the way he drew Batman's cowl (I am a fan of the eyeless look). Only recommend this to the Batman completists out there; anyone else pass.
J'ai très peu à dire sur cette bande dessinée à part le fait qu'elle soit très mauvaise. L'histoire tourne autour d'une vedette rock qui commet des actes criminels. On y voit un Batman complètement réactionnaire et qui semble sorti droit des années cinquante. Ce fut un ennuis total de lire cette merde qui n'aurait jamais dû voir le jour. À éviter à tout prix!!
A failed opportunity to write a comic book about a damaged Rock hero and criticize the music industry. Batman's campy presence and creepy behavior feels unnecessary, as he is given some short of second backstory involving a crazed punk singer. The dialogue attempts to contain a deep message even though it absolutely doesn't. Don't waste your money on this issue.
Rock and Roll fanwank. Too referential to be interesting unless you've subscribed to Spin or Rolling Stone at some point in your life. I liked (loved) the idea of Batman having failed to save Nancy from Sid Vicious, but really didn't buy him in the roll of the establishment.
The worst and most ridiculous Batman story that I've ever read. Only bought it because it was $2 and it's considered Modern (post Year One) Batman canon. I suppose if you're REALLY into classic rock, you might get a kick out of it...but everyone else steer clear of this garbage.
This is bad enough to in some moments be considered amusing. But it's mostly bad. A mess of ideas and references, with bad characterisation of both Batman (he thinks all rock is "mad" and evil, based on a new backstory involving punk) and Robin. The end twist is absurd.
I give this story two stars because it features Batman and a blonde haired knock off of Elvis. There is nothing else good about this story except for its end. Not that the end is good, but, rather, that this shit story has ended and you can start the process of forgetting this one.
This is easily the most poorly contrived Batman story ever conceived. Hell, it's the dumbest story I have ever read in my entire life and sadly it will now rot on a shelf in my collection as the one book that no one should ever subject themselves to.