Fahrenheit 451
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why do you think they burn the books?
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Miguel
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May 11, 2009 12:35PM
I think that they burn the b0ok5 bekuz they are trying t0 start a new trend and the b0ok5 have info that the pe0ple can leaRn 4rm them (B0ok5) aNd the pe0pLe that are staRtinG the nEw TrenD d0nt want them t0 ReAd beacuse the b0ok woUld Hav cerTian inf0
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Books have ideas and knowledge, which is a threat to the government. The government can better control a dumb society. Ideas and knowledge make people question how things are, makes people see the faults in the world.
Lack of knowledge enables ignorance.. Ignorance creates people who are easier to control.
There is so much symbolism in this book it's crazy! I think the answer to this question though is up to interpretation.
But generally, the books represent free thinking. When Montag gets a hold of some books and starts to obtain his own opinion about his life and his society, his boss tries to stop him-- he tires to burn out those thoughts in the same they they burn the books.
Although the there is an evident symbolism I think the burning of books represents the volatility of the material in contrast with the power of the ideas contained in them. Fahrenheit 451 does not mention the burning of cook books or fashion magazines only romances and books with stories and ideas, as mentioned before, that are not controlled. And in the end of the story books are preserved by everyone in a way that cannot be burned or destroyed unless everyone is chased.
Burning books is not even symbolic in this story. This is nothing new in our history and it has been done time and time again by both governments and religious authorities to suppress dissention or just to stop people from thinking.Just check out this list of book burning incidents:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_...
The tale is mainly in reference to Plato's allegory of the cave. It fits all the points perfectly and in the end shows us that we, the reader, must work to prevent ourselves from becoming prisoners to our own ignorance. In reference to Plato's allegory of the cave, society is held back by their own ignorance,and simply to keep it this way, the government created firemen to keep the fire burning so that shadows could be displayed upon the wall by their own hands. Montag was one of those prisoners that was able to escape the cave and receive enlightenment, though he did not understand it himself until later on in the novel.
I understand that each of us works to fight ignorance fits with Plato but how does the idea that what we are seeing is just shadows of what is real fit into this book? Keeping withing Plato's shadows on the cave, would the killing of the messenger who tries to tell them to turn around be the burning of the books?
well, cuz they burn really well! with a steady flame!
The shadows are the living room walls that people live their lives in, just like the ignorant dwellers depend on these shadows to help them live through life. The killing of the messenger could be taken any way, Montag was attempted to be killed, so he fits the role of the messenger in a way, since he sought to learn, became enlightened, and tried to tell his wife and her friends.Followed by an attack by the firemen and the hound. But books also fit the role of the messenger, since at the end of the book when Montag meets the four (three?) pilgrims, who said in their own words that they are living books, so I guess books are the messenger.
The cultures have been trying for centuries to keep a memory of themselves in order to show to the future generations how they used to life, which are the most important values and thoughts. Books is one of those forms. To destroy them represents to destroy the basis of the society so a new one be set.Now, I belive that this book is not only about burning books, but also about all the things that come when you don't read, I'm very scared to see bigger tv's and more real because we might face one day with a 4 walls one!!.
Watch more tv, less thinking,less p2p relation, less perseptive to see beyond, to question, to imagine... to live!
Because they're ignorant!!
Books hold an enormous amount of power, and I think we've all agreed upon that, and we've all come to the conclusion that books can be a threat to governments. However, in the books (and it's starting to show in reality as well) people have begun to lose their attention spans and love for books. With these 2 things the government can burn books and people are willing to accept it without retaliation.
It is the modern day view of censorship, what we don't know won't hurt us. Have classics like Mark Twains's Huckleberry Finn hurt us by reading those books, or others that have become banned because of salacious material. Lady Chatterley's Lover I found to be a bore, but maybe D. H. Lawrence didn't know the brouhaha he would stir on the title of his book, alone.
Concentrating on what I perceive from the book, rather than what the author originally meant; I think think the books are burnt to eliminate free thought and control what the people are thinking at any given moment through what appeals best to the senses which is television. Although since some copies of the books that are seized are kept, I would say that there is a privileged ruling class of people that are allowed to read them. And the world in the novel is pretty high tech so I'd say not everyone is wasting away their time in front of mega screens.
and how do people learn to read in the first place?
They burn the books because they don't want people to think for themselves. My interpretation has always been that they were allowed to read what was posted through the government.Those who had read, taught others. Remember the college professor? He had been teaching, so evidently the whole book burning was a rather new concept.
Bradbury also wrote a short story that I loved where the main character, Leonard Mead is stopped by an automated police car. When asked for his occupation at first he said author, then repeated "I write books". The robotic voice says "No occupation."
One of the ironies about the publishing of the book was the reaction of a small town librarian who wrote Bradbury and complained because he wrote a book about destroying books and she refused to put it on her shelf. Then she went around the town and tried to get the public school libraries to destroy their copies.
Well, paper burns really well as long as you provide enough oxygen. But you really need to tear the pages out and crumble them up in balls (not to tightly!) for max effect.
Well, I think that they burn books because they don't want anyone to really learn anything. They don't want people to think. They basically want to create a society where no one can think for themselves, because when people think for themselves trouble can happen, and they basically want a society that is trouble free.
Book burning has been around since before Johannes Gutenberg. It is an easy and very demonstrative way to suppress new or accepted ideas. Books were burned regularly during the Reformation in Europe. This distasteful practice has taken place (in recent years) in the United States by people opposed to new ideas. I fear the written word will always remain a victim of fanatics with matches.
They burn the books because they were afraid the people would start thinking for themselves. Reading is knowledge and they wanted to keep them dumb so society could be easily controlled.
Fahrenheit 451 is the only book I've read three times. For me it captures a sense of romanticism in a world gone crazy, a world that stopped wondering and just went from one pleasure to the other. His wife overdoses (as do many other people in the book) so they replace all her blood and get her running again.So what happens to stopping and enjoying the world around you? What happened to spending days lost in a book, spending time with no objective besides exploring imagination. For me this book means a few things, the death and ostracizing of Humanity's innocence. We should kill wonder, so people do their jobs better.
As many other people say, it is about control. No one needs to stop and wonder at the night sky, they need entertainment quick and dirty to suit their fickle minds. Lets break some glass, run over pedestrians, chase down hopeless romantics, so they don't have to worry about the emptiness in their own hearts, because if your own heart and blood becomes too rotten they'll just pump it out and give you fresh blood so you're brand new and you won't have to worry about it.
What gruesome thoughts, Charles. Much like blood transfusions these days, I guess.
Robin,The more I read it, the more things I find starting to happen in our society today. It's eerie in a way. When I read about the seashells in the ears, I immediately thought of i-pods. We have students now who get on the school bus to go home with their earbuds stuck in their ears or busy texting away on their cell phones. What isolation as compared to even 15 years ago!
Charles I agree with you too. The first thing I thought of was the way Clarice enjoys a simple rain drop and gets Montag to notice it. The need for excitement seems to have taken away the average person's ability to just "smell the roses" so to speak.
Then there's the "viewing screen". The first time I read the book the idea of a television screen that took up an entire wall was strictly science fiction and now... Also notice Montag points out to Mildred that the "family" on the tv never really say anything but words; there's no real drama to it; nothing exciting and yet it's an obsession with Mildred.
When Mildred overdoses and the men come out to replace her blood, the men are so nonchalant about it and point out to Montag that it happens quite frequently. I like to try to figure out did Mildred deliberately OD or was she so used to taking her pills that she just popped then in her mouth without thinking, without remembering that she has already taken them. Actaully I'm glad that Bradbury doesn't tell us which it is to keep the reader wondering.
All of this wonderful life that the people seem to have but no one seems to "enjoy" and meanwhile the planes are buzzing overhead reminding the reader that there is a catastrophic war going on or about to happen. (Actually I missed all the references to the planes the first two times I read the book.) Like you, Charles, I enjoy reading this one over and over again. Yet each time I re-read it I feel saddened as I see things in our modern life moving towards a similar stage.
Suzanne wrote: "and how do people learn to read in the first place?"LOL!!! very good point!!!
Sierra wrote: "Books have ideas and knowledge, which is a threat to the government. The government can better control a dumb society. Ideas and knowledge make people question how things are, makes people see the ..."This is why governments (Cambodia in the 70's, N.Korea) ban books and why it was illegal to teach slaves to read.
Fire has many times been symbolic of cleansing. By burning the books, those in power "cleansed" the citizens of independent thought...
Nina,Doesn't Bradbury make the case that it is still a government of the people? Of the majority? They burned books because the consensus was that books should be burned. The general citizenship didn't want difficulty in thought anymore, not diversity, not discontent. They wanted cheap thrills and hollow happiness so the government of the people obliged.
It is anti-intellectualism at its most militant.
Charles,Exactly, and this is the danger with anti-intellectualism. Any society in which anti-intellectualism is tolerated and free to reign is susceptible to enforced thought control.
I agree. I think Bradbury especially demonstrates that through the voice of Captain Beatty when he explains it to Montag. One of the problems Beatty sees is that what is written in books is often contratidictory (one book with another). Also through Mildred and her friends who do not want to listen to Montag reading. It isn't just because he's doing something "illegal" but because the content is frightening to them. It's easier to deal with the hollow meaningless "family" on the viewing screen. And again it's seen in the conversation of the firemen as they play cards. Meanwhile the planes zoom by overhead all the time reminding the reader that there is a war going on. Notice no one discusses the war or the possible destruction until Montag is finally with the book people. If I don't know about the problems in society and controveries, then I don't have to deal with them. I'll just trust my government to help me avoid dealing with reality.
PS to those who started and have participated in this discussion: thank you. When I retired one of the things that I thought I would miss the most was discussing this novel. I had a poster in the room and I can't remember the exact words... something about we don't need to burn books for people to stop thinking, we just need to keep them from reading them.
I found the quote. It was from Bradbury himself:You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them.
Even though most of that society chose to forgo independent thought, it was still necessary to cleanse all the other "voices". There were still people such as Clarisse and Montag...always a few of us that must be sacrificed for the "common good".Personally, I feel this is one of the most beautifully written books. I loved it when Bradbury likens the burning books fluttering around Montag to butterflies.
or was it moths...now I'm going to have reread the book. Oh darn.
A few things I want to add, though they might be tangential, but I feel like it because I'm enjoying this discussion so much.I love Bradbury's take on writing in general. (This passage is at the end of my copy of Fahrenheit 451)
http://www.angelfire.com/ga/page451/r...
"For, let's face it, digression is the soul of wit. Take the philosophic asides away from Dante, Milton or Hamlet's father's ghost and what stays is dry bones. Laurence Sterne said it once: Digressions, incontestably, are the sunshine, the life, the soul of reading! Take them out and one cold eternal winter would reign in every page. Restore them to the writer - he steps forth like a bridegroom, bids them all-hail, brings in variety and forbids the appetite to fail.
In sum, do not insult me with the beheadings, finger-choppings or the lung-deflations you plan for my works. I need my head to shake or nod, my hand to wave or make into a fist, my lungs to shout or whisper with. I will not go gently onto a shelf, degutted, to become a non-book.
All you umpire, back to the bleachers. Referees, hit the showers. It's my game. I pitch, I hit, I catch. I run the bases. At sunset I've won or lost. At sunrise, I'm out again, giving it the old try.
And no one can help me. Not even you."
- Ray Bradburry
Second tangent, when I was young I always thought of Beatty as a challenge. I knew he was wrong in my heart but what did it matter if I couldn't defeat him? If I was in Montag's place could I beat Beatty on his own level? I learned a bit about literature and philosophy and history (and I'm learning so much more) but I was able to formulate arguments and recognize his rhetoric as empty, and that in the end he is ultimately a man of violence. If I had defeated this anti-intellectual, the center anti-intellectual, face to face, he would just have resorted to violence. The only real chance for Beatty was when he was young, his teachers could have changed him for the better, could have kindled the wonder-lust in him.
Third Tangent. I see people often despairing on Television and movies. The way television and movies are right now I agree, the creators seemed to have to confine themselves to certain constraints while writers, writers just have their mind and their page. I am sure there are cost concerns but why couldn't movies start being 10-12 hours long? You could enter the world of a movie just like a book, put it down and pick it back up whenever you want.
All of the Star Wars movies put together are 13 hours and 17 minutes long. All of the Lord of the Rings movies (extended edition) together are around 11 hours long. I wonder if someday movies can be seen in the same light as books when authors with the right digital creation tools put in the time to put in as much detail as they want. I hope some day we could watch something like Fahrenheit 451 in its entire unabridged form, due to the creation of digital actors that even amateurs could pick up and create wonderfully long visual epics, but I digress so I'll end my tangents here!
Nina wrote: "or was it moths...now I'm going to have reread the book. Oh darn."Yeah, right now I'm searching for my copy so I can get quotes!
Oh I would love any new movie version of Fahrenheit 451. The original is good, I don't care a lot for Oscar Werner and although I understand it, didn't like the idea of Julie Christie playing the two roles. Also the suggestion that Montag was romantically interested in Clarisse. Her purpose, imho, was to make him aware that he was missing something important in life. And then gradually another "teacher" showed up in various forms. Even Mildred helped him to move forward by viewing her differently after talking with Clarisse.
What does the post by Miguel even say? I'm sick of the new generation's willingness to destroy the English language just to "look cute".
In the fireman's defence most of the books were either from the "Twilight" series or books written by Dan Brown.
Those should be on the top of the heap.
I think they were afraid that people would gain knowledge, making them smarter than the city council. If that happened, the city council wouldn't be able to control them. Another idea is to keep everything "clean" as not to destroy family morals.
It sounds almost like our present government.
they burn the books to keep people from being educated. (even know how to spell) Education is freedom and the government in the book was trying to keep people from being free -- trying to control them. The best way to keep people down is to limit their knowledge.
Heresy!! Harry Potter is the series I have to read every summer over and over again. *LOL* Next thing I know you will want to be burning Shakespeare because he has so much ...dare I say it? the s*x word and murder, blood, and ghosts and all those things we are not supposed to want to read. *LOL* It's so nice that we are all so different.
I rmember a professor in college who told us that in Victorian England some people felt they had to cover the "legs" of chairs and such and they even used another name for the "appendages" of these pieces of furniture.Truly truly scary though ... fact school libraries where all the books are being removed to make room for more computers. And students are told to use library time to research on the computer.
*LOL* Smores? Ok burn whatever we need to keep the fire going. Seriously that's what I like about goodreads. I learn so much from other people; see things differently and I like being exposed to new ways of thinking. As a former teacher, I guess I am just so tired of the students saying. "I didn't like it!" Why? "Because it's boooooring." What's boring about it? "It just is" One co-worker gave them a definition I loved. Boring = Failure to Engage. He said "If you tell me you found something boring, then you are telling me you failed to engage yourself in thinking." Of course also, how do you know it's boring if you haven't tried to read it? Sorry to get on my teacher platform here. I had a very good friend there too who was very close and we laughed because he can't get five pages into a Dickens book but loves Moby Dick. I don't like Moby Dick (even the movie)but each of us knows why we don't like those books and can give specific details why.
Karen B wrote: "*LOL* Smores? Ok burn whatever we need to keep the fire going. Seriously that's what I like about goodreads. I learn so much from other people; see things differently and I like being exposed to n..."You should slap the kids upside the head and ask if that was boring.
Moby Dick the movie was good, but I too cannot read the book, just don't like the style of writing.
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