Female Characters: Dos and Don'ts

[Sum]

Well I think this is a pretty interesting topic.

There's always a bit of a framework set up for the ideal book heroine, I think. It just changes over time. In the early 1900s there were the super cheerful, optimistic, and happy heroines, like Anne of Green Gables, Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm, etc.

Now I think the ideal heroine is tough, slightly rude, and adored by every male character in the literary world despite this.

[Jo]

I want diversity. I want characters that aren't complete badasses or innocent little girls. I want mixes. That's the key: complexity. For any character as well, not just female characters.

[sucre'd fiend]

I agree with Jo. Most female heroines are portrayed in a light that has only one facet to them. I think there should be more, so it's not just, well, them.

[Brigid ✩, No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader.]

Oh boy, where to start...

I agree ... I hate when a girl is just there in the book to make a guy fall in love with her (although, it goes both ways ... I also hate when the only purpose of a guy character is for the girl to fall in love with him).

Some other types of female characters I dislike:

The Manic Pixie Dream Girl: Kind of similar to the type of character mentioned above ... The MPDG is usually just there to make a young male character learn life/romance lessons and take new risks, etc. She's typically very "quirky" and possibly a bit insane. (ex: Stargirl)

The Too-Badass Girl: This is what happens when an author thinks they are portraying females well just by making them badass. And while of course I love badass ladies, just because a woman is kicking ass left and right doesn't make her likable. She also has to be a three-dimensional person. Not only that, but she has to be realistic ... and let's face it, no one is completely badass all the time.

The Mary Sue: There's a whole range of Mary Sue traits. But to narrow it down ... typically a Mary Sue character has little to no flaws. She may think that she's flawed (that is, she may believe she is plain-looking/ugly, clumsy and awkward, etc.) and yet everyone falls in love with her for virtually no reason (besides what she looks like, usually).

The I'm-Not-Like-Other-Girls Girl: This type of character could fall under the Mary Sue umbrella ... but basically, it's a female character that constantly frowns upon other female characters. This character is often found calling other girls sluts, saying other girls are shallow and stupid, etc. She's also often hypocritical, and when she does the same things as the girls she typically criticizes, she doesn't think she's doing anything wrong.

... Well, that's a start.

[Jo]

I have one girl character who swears to herself early in the book never to gossip, and no matter how much people try to get her to break her promise she remains steadfast, and it gets pretty funny.

[Brigid ✩, No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader.]

Jo wrote: "I want diversity. I want characters that aren't complete badasses or innocent little girls. I want mixes. That's the key: complexity. For any character as well, not just female characters."

Yes, I think that sums it up nicely.

I like female characters who can be badass if necessary, but who also make mistakes and are as complex/flawed as real people.

[Sum]

Brigid *Flying Kick-a-pow!* wrote: "Oh boy, where to start...

I agree ... I hate when a girl is just there in the book to make a guy fall in love with her (although, it goes both ways ... I also hate when the only purpose of a guy c..."

You put it very neatly :)

Also there's the self-pitying kind of heroine, who focuses on one part of her life or personality that kind of sucks, and just whines about it.

[Jo]

That's an Angsty Sue.

[Brigid ✩, No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader.]

Gilda wrote: "I see what you mean. For example, if you have a bad ass character, you want her to be weaker sometimes. Like a real person, anyway. People have many facets; I don't see why characters should be dif..."

Yup, precisely.

[Taylor]

@Brigid

B-b-but...I'm in love with a MPDG.... D:

[Brigid ✩, No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader.]

Well, I think the thing about MPDGs is that they don't seem realistic ... or rather, they're the kind of girls that guys wish really existed but usually don't. So if you managed to find a real one in real life, then I guess that's lucky. Haha. ;)

[Taylor]

I definitely wished they'd exist...then I found one. Now to prove Bigfoot's existence.

As far as the polarized female characters.... As might have already been mentioned, you see two types of female characters in fiction from the last ten years -- the dominant and submissive. It is my belief that current fiction responds in contrast to the fiction that precedes it. So, with the advent of Twilight, the helpless little man-catcher became the big thing. But this was countered by books such as Hunger Games and Divergent and Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.

As for more realistic characters...I notice a lot of stuff on here about how there are unrealistic characters. Well, how can we improve, ladies? How can Bella become more real? How can Katniss become more relatable? Don't be a hater unless you've got something better, I guess.

[Acacia]

The thing about MPDGs is that imagining someone like that is kind of doing them a disservice, elevating them past human status so you expect more of them than is fair sometimes... like there's a John Green quote about it that says it better than I could.

"The fundamental mistake that I had always made - and that she, in all fairness, had always led me to make, was this: Margo was not a miracle. She was not an adventure. She was not a fine and precious thing. She was a girl."

[Taylor]

And, to be fair, Margo sucked. She pissed me off to no end.

I guess I should repeat something I said in another thread -- people read to escape real life. If there is not a shred of the unrealistic, it isn't interesting.

[Baxter, butts butts butts]

Taylor [formerly Timothy] wrote: "I definitely wished they'd exist...then I found one. Now to prove Bigfoot's existence.

As far as the polarized female characters.... As might have already been mentioned, you see two types of fema..."

Man, I haven't read the book, but Rooney Mara in Girl With the Dragon Tattoo? Yes. Yes please. End of that movie was just 'You real people aren't Lisbeth, get out of my life'.

[Taylor]

I couldn't finish the book, and won't see the movie. Lisbeth is gross.

[Anastasia]

"I hate when a girl is just there in the book to make a guy fall in love with her (although, it goes both ways ... I also hate when the only purpose of a guy character is for the girl to fall in love with him)."

Could you elaborate on that a little more, please, Brigid? :)

[Brigid ✩, No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader.]

Anastasia [I'm Wonderstruck...] wrote: ""I hate when a girl is just there in the book to make a guy fall in love with her (although, it goes both ways ... I also hate when the only purpose of a guy character is for the girl to fall in lo..."

What do you want me to elaborate on? I just mean, if there's a love interest, that character should have a purpose other than just being a love interest. They also need to have realistic goals of their own––you know, besides making out with the main character. They need to have flaws, weaknesses, some kind of background, etc. In other words, they should still be their own character and not just a prop the author threw in there.

[Anastasia]

Oh, definitely. Thanks. ;)

[Sum]

Taylor [formerly Timothy] wrote: "I couldn't finish the book, and won't see the movie. Lisbeth is gross."

I don't mean to be rude, but let me quote some of your own words back at you: "Don't be a hater unless you've got something better, I guess."

Unless you actually do have something better. In which case I'll shut up.

[Krys]

You know, I generally think that this topic could be extended to cover stereotypes of both genders, or characters in general. Despite our best wishes as authors, there is literature and media that represents character "stereotypes" and esteems girls that Brigid mentioned previously. It does the same for guys, which I would like to point out.

Is it just me, or am I the only one who can't stand to see one more stereotypical "badass with a heart of gold" represented in literature? This is seriously one of my biggest pet peeves. I cannot count the number of times that I have read a book, and the main male character is a BAMF who acts like a jerk towards everyone but the heroine.

Anyways.

[Krys]

Taylor [formerly Timothy] wrote: "I couldn't finish the book, and won't see the movie. Lisbeth is gross."

Out of curiosity, why did you think she was gross?

[Brigid ✩, No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader.]

Kriss wrote: "You know, I generally think that this topic could be extended to cover stereotypes of both genders, or characters in general. Despite our best wishes as authors, there is literature and media that ..."

That's true, there's stereotyping on both ends.

I agree, and I've noticed that a lot too. Just because a guy is nice to you doesn't give him an excuse to be horrible to everyone else. >.<

[Anastasia]

Kriss wrote: "You know, I generally think that this topic could be extended to cover stereotypes of both genders, or characters in general. Despite our best wishes as authors, there is literature and media that ..."

Now that you mention it, that situation does, indeed, seem common. :/

[Anastasia]

Brigid *Flying Kick-a-pow!* wrote: "Kriss wrote: "You know, I generally think that this topic could be extended to cover stereotypes of both genders, or characters in general. Despite our best wishes as authors, there is literature a..."

This.

[Baxter, butts butts butts]

Taylor [formerly Timothy] wrote: "I couldn't finish the book, and won't see the movie. Lisbeth is gross."

False. She is a total babe. And mad ballin'.

[Brigid ✩, No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader.]

Baxter wrote: "Taylor [formerly Timothy] wrote: "I couldn't finish the book, and won't see the movie. Lisbeth is gross."

False. She is a total babe. And mad ballin'."

What Baxter said.

[Taylor]

@Samantha Anne

I don't mean she is a poorly-written character. She just grossed me out is all.

@Everyone

Think about it -- she has this hobby of hunting down sexual criminals and doing horrible things to mockingly punish them for their crimes. I don't remember if this was in the Swedish or American version of the film, but I read that she does stuff like sticking a dildo in the anus of one of her victims.

If that is attractive to you, let me just say that we have very different tastes.

[Brigid ✩, No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader.]

Taylor [formerly Timothy] wrote: "@Samantha Anne

I don't mean she is a poorly-written character. She just grossed me out is all.

@Everyone

Think about it -- she has this hobby of hunting down sexual criminals and doing horrible ..."

Uhh yeah, because she was repeatedly and brutally raped. Just saying.

[Taylor]

Great. I understand that. Just recognize that I don't really support vengeful violence. Leave it up to the authorities. *shrug*

[Brigid ✩, No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader.]

Taylor [formerly Timothy] wrote: "Great. I understand that. Just recognize that I don't really support vengeful violence. Leave it up to the authorities. *shrug*"

And authorities do next to nothing about rape. Really, go look up statistics of how many rapists actually go to jail. It's horrible. ... But, okay.

[Taylor]

Uh-huh. Well, my mom was raped, and I wouldn't support her going out and torturing rapists.

[Brigid ✩, No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader.]

Taylor [formerly Timothy] wrote: "Uh-huh. Well, my mom was raped, and I wouldn't support her going out and torturing rapists."

Oh gosh, I'm sorry your mom had to go through that. :(

But mind you, I'm not saying I "support" anyone going out to torture people. I'm just saying, I understand why Lisbeth chooses to do what she does because of the horror she went through. It's not like she's just doing it for the lulz. And just because a character does something wrong doesn't necessarily make them a "bad" character. That's all.

[Taylor]

Heh...she's fine now. Doesn't help that it was her own husband. Douche....

I just found her hard to root for, you know? Her actions, no matter how justified, still made me feel sick. That's all.

[Krys]

Taylor [formerly Timothy] wrote: "Heh...she's fine now. Doesn't help that it was her own husband. Douche....

I just found her hard to root for, you know? Her actions, no matter how justified, still made me feel sick. That's all."

... and the actions of the rapist didn't make you feel sick?

I mean, she was in a situation where the authorities would do nothing and she knew it. The man had complete control of her money, which she needed. She gets sexually assaulted when trying to get access to her own money. Was she just supposed to complain to authorities that would not respond? The entire nature of the book was to depict the way women are brutally treated in Sweden. Her actions might have been extremist, but I find the actions of the rapist who "initiated" it more disgusting still. I think the fact she had to go to such extremes to make sure she felt safe is sad, actually, not disgusting.

[Brigid ✩, No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader.]

Taylor [formerly Timothy] wrote: "Heh...she's fine now. Doesn't help that it was her own husband. Douche....

I just found her hard to root for, you know? Her actions, no matter how justified, still made me feel sick. That's all."

Ugh, that's horrible.

And yeah, I get what you mean and I don't expect to change your mind. But I do agree with what Kriss said ... In this case, complaining to authorities wouldn't have helped. And that's kind of what the book tries to illuminate––that thousands of women go mistreated/abused/assaulted every day, and many of them don't have the chance to fight back. So, that's part of what Lisbeth stands for––not just as a character but as a symbol.

[Elliott]

Okay, so I'm a bit late to this conversation and everyone moved on from Manic Pixie Dream Girls to The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo (which I haven't read yet because I've heard that it's ridiculously depressing and so I'm avoiding it for the time being) BUT I'm going to say things about the MPDG thing anyways. Because I'm writing a book about romanticizing things and it's also about how people shouldn't project their ideas on people and Manic Pixie Dream Girls and all of that fun stuff because I was apparently channeling John Green subconsciously in a major way when I started writing it and now I've put too much work into it to stop. YAY.

But anyways. I was talking to one of my guy friends about Manic Pixie Dream Girls and the way guys tend to idealize the girls they like in real life as well. And it was really frustrating to me, not just as a writer but as a girl. As Acacia said, it isn't fair to the person who is being idealized. And like Brigid said, if the only reason a character exists is to be a love interest for another character, it's very frustrating.

I think that books and movies can be an amazing tool to study people and their emotions and the things that make them tick. I like stories that don't stop on the surface of a character. I like flawed characters that readers fall in love with because of their good qualities. Every character should have motivations and ideas and goals in life and have their own reason for existing.

And this has been a ramble and I'm not sure if it makes sense, but saying things is hard so that's as good as it will probably get, haha.

[Taylor]

@Lav
Blech...I apologize, but for the safety of all, I'm not going to respond to your stance. You said a couple things in there that were were a little frustrating to me as a guy, so.... I just don't want to start any arguments or stomp on anyone's toes.

[Sum]

Lav wrote: "Okay, so I'm a bit late to this conversation and everyone moved on from Manic Pixie Dream Girls to The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo (which I haven't read yet because I've heard that it's ridiculousl..."

That makes sense. The main thing that makes me love a book is a strong, relatable character. Making them realistic is more important than making characters you can easily sympathize with, I think.

[Elliott]

Samantha Anne wrote: "Lav wrote: "Okay, so I'm a bit late to this conversation and everyone moved on from Manic Pixie Dream Girls to The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo (which I haven't read yet because I've heard that it'..."

I love it when I can relate to a character, but it always makes me really happy when I can see into the mind of a character I don't have much in common with and understand where they're coming from, to some extent. I think it probably depends on personal preference.

[Krys]

Taylor [formerly Timothy] wrote: "@Lav
Blech...I apologize, but for the safety of all, I'm not going to respond to your stance. You said a couple things in there that were were a little frustrating to me as a guy, so.... I just don..."

We could state our opinions respectfully? Not the same as an argument, just saying.

[Elliott]

Yeah, I'm not going to be offended if you disagree with me, as long as you don't start attacking me personally...

[Taylor]

Guys, I promise you...my issue is the same one that upset a lot of people before. I'm fast learning that even having a problem is offensive to some people, so...I'm calling it quits on the MPDG discussion.

[Brigid ✩, No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader.]

Lav wrote: "Okay, so I'm a bit late to this conversation and everyone moved on from Manic Pixie Dream Girls to The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo (which I haven't read yet because I've heard that it's ridiculousl..."

True ... although I'd say it goes both ways. That is, girls idealize the guys they like also. And that's also pretty common in YA lit ... in fact, it's probably even more common. XD

[Taylor]

Okay...screw it...I'm gonna say it.

My issue (as I've mentioned before), is that guys do what the girls want, and it still is annoying.

"Oh, guys are disrespectful. Jerks!"
"Oh, guys are too nice. They're creepy!"

Or, in this case,

"Guys don't think enough of me. Morons!"
"Guys idealize me. It isn't fair to me!"

THAT'S why I'm frustrated. Because we don't stack up no matter what the expectation is.

[Brigid ✩, No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader.]

Well ... yes, girls can have unrealistic expectations. But also, I don't think being nice is generally considered "creepy." I mean, if a guy is constantly stalking a girl and giving her unwanted attention, that's one thing––if that's what you mean by "too nice." But I don't think most people have anything against a guy who is typically nice/thoughtful.

[Elliott]

Brigid *Flying Kick-a-pow!* wrote: "Lav wrote: "Okay, so I'm a bit late to this conversation and everyone moved on from Manic Pixie Dream Girls to The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo (which I haven't read yet because I've heard that it'..."

Yeah, I definitely agree that girls do that with boys as well. And it gets pretty dull when there are so many flat characters because of this issue.

[Taylor]

There's a difference between unrealistic and "two expectations which cancel each other out."

Well then, I ask for your advice. How much is too much? Because girls are creeped out no matter what my friends and I do.

[Brigid ✩, No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader.]

Taylor [formerly Timothy] wrote: "There's a difference between unrealistic and "two expectations which cancel each other out."

Well then, I ask for your advice. How much is too much? Because girls are creeped out no matter what my..."

I'm not really sure how such expectations cancel each other out; I mean, you're also assuming that all girls share all the same expectations, which is a generalization. But anyway...

I'm not really an expert or anything, but I think the important thing is being able to give a girl some space. Like, there have been a couple guys who constantly followed me around and would like intentionally show up wherever I was––and that's pretty creepy. It's not that they weren't "nice," but usually acting obsessive doesn't help things. It also depends on the girl ... If a girl seems creeped out by your advances, it could just be that she's not interested. And it's not like that's your fault, but also not much can be done about that. It seems to me that maybe you and your friends have just not found the right girls yet––not that the girls you're pursuing are somehow flawed.

[Taylor]

Why doesn't it make sense that they cancel out? I only hear complaints about how much attention a girl gets. "Oh, he doesn't pay enough attention to me." Or "He pays too much attention to me." It's really sad, and sometimes I wonder how people ever get married with the kind of attitude girls have about guys. Newsflash: not all of them are stupid.

Mmmhmmm...it's most definitely the man's fault when a girl is just looking for an excuse to say the guy is being obsessive. *sarcasm* I can count on one hand the number of female friends I have who didn't give me strange looks when I told them they look nice. And then one of those who called me a creep for it committed suicide six months later because she didn't feel pretty enough.

Trust me, I'm not making up this double-standard s***. It's there, and I'm really sick of people talking about how guys are creepy, or stupid, or obsessive, or possessive, when all they want is to make you happy.