What do you think?
Rate this book
Liturgical Nestorianism: A critical review of "Worship in the presence of God"
Discusses ancient Nestorians who believed that Jesus and God were two actual persons in one body.
- GenresTheology
92 pages, Paperback
First published January 1, 1994
1 person is currently reading
48 people want to read
About the author
James B. Jordan
57 books146 followersJames B. Jordan is a Calvinist theologian and author. He is director of Biblical Horizons ministries, a think tank in Niceville, Florida that publishes books, essays and other media dealing with Bible commentary, Biblical Theology, and liturgy.
Jordan was born in Athens, Georgia, and he attended the University of Georgia, where he received a B.A. in comparative literature and participated in Campus Crusade for Christ. He served as a military historian in the United States Air Force and attended Reformed Theological Seminary in Jackson, Mississippi but ultimately earned an M.A. and Th.M. from Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania with a master's thesis on slavery in the Bible. In 1993, he received a D.Litt. from the Central School of Religion for his dissertation on the dietary laws of Moses. From 1980 to 1990 Jordan was an associate pastor of a Presbyterian church in Tyler, Texas.
Jordan was born in Athens, Georgia, and he attended the University of Georgia, where he received a B.A. in comparative literature and participated in Campus Crusade for Christ. He served as a military historian in the United States Air Force and attended Reformed Theological Seminary in Jackson, Mississippi but ultimately earned an M.A. and Th.M. from Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania with a master's thesis on slavery in the Bible. In 1993, he received a D.Litt. from the Central School of Religion for his dissertation on the dietary laws of Moses. From 1980 to 1990 Jordan was an associate pastor of a Presbyterian church in Tyler, Texas.
Ratings & Reviews
Friends & Following
Create a free account to discover what your friends think of this book!
Community Reviews
Displaying 1 - 7 of 7 reviews
June 8, 2021
This was a fun read. Some takeaways:
- Most misread RCs as having worship that is too much like the OT. But RC's don't understand the OT at all, and their worship is much more Greek than Hebraic.
- "The true question is how we are to apply the features of the Old Creation in the New Creation (2 Tim 3:16-17) not how we can dismiss them."
- In Christ we are all priests of God. Priests are temple servants - servants in God's house.
-Charismatic worship appears to be a dumbing down of everything to make outsiders comfortable. In reality it is meant to make the insiders comfortable in their immaturity.
Strict RPW
- Strict RPWs demand explicit commands, but this does not "arise from the Bible itself" and is "unworkable in practice." Instead, the Bible demands that we look to command, principles, patterns, examples, etc. to influence our understanding of how God wants us to worship.
- Strict RPWs act more like dispensationalists in their understanding of worship
- Strict RPW is a type of a return to Medieval worship but instead of watching a Priest conduct the Mass, the congregation now sits and listens to the Pastor do everything. The reformation was about bringing back congregational involvement.
- Strict RPWs act like rationalists, nestorians and gnostics. They object to "physical" aspects of worship because it detracts from the spiritual. The physical becomes inferior to the spiritual and what they mean by spiritual is more Greek than biblical.
- Strict RPWs say that early church worship grew out of the synagogue not the Temple. But where are the explicit commands in Scripture for what ought to be done in the synagogue? Where are the regulations? There are none... if we were to be true to this we would merely gather and sit silently. Or we must admit that NC worship is not regulated in the way strict RPWs say it is.
- No where does Scripture command baptisms to be performed within the worship service. Is it forbidden?
Instruments:
- If the Temple was a type of heavenly worship and included instruments, and if heavenly worship in Revelation includes instrument, and if we are to pray that God's will be done on earth as in heaven... where does that leave instruments in the equation?
- Scripture explicitly tells us to sing with instruments. It no where commands a capella singing.
Maturity
- Worship became increasingly more glorious as the OT progressed
- Our understanding of worship should grow in maturity as history progresses and the church herself matures in biblical fidelity
- As history progresses and becomes more glorious, so too should our worship - we don't have to stay in the catacombs forever
- If worship is glorious in heaven, and was glorious in the OT, why can't it be glorious now?
- Paul's whole argument is that, because we are mature, we are free to observe days, or NOT to observe them.
- Most misread RCs as having worship that is too much like the OT. But RC's don't understand the OT at all, and their worship is much more Greek than Hebraic.
- "The true question is how we are to apply the features of the Old Creation in the New Creation (2 Tim 3:16-17) not how we can dismiss them."
- In Christ we are all priests of God. Priests are temple servants - servants in God's house.
-Charismatic worship appears to be a dumbing down of everything to make outsiders comfortable. In reality it is meant to make the insiders comfortable in their immaturity.
Strict RPW
- Strict RPWs demand explicit commands, but this does not "arise from the Bible itself" and is "unworkable in practice." Instead, the Bible demands that we look to command, principles, patterns, examples, etc. to influence our understanding of how God wants us to worship.
- Strict RPWs act more like dispensationalists in their understanding of worship
- Strict RPW is a type of a return to Medieval worship but instead of watching a Priest conduct the Mass, the congregation now sits and listens to the Pastor do everything. The reformation was about bringing back congregational involvement.
- Strict RPWs act like rationalists, nestorians and gnostics. They object to "physical" aspects of worship because it detracts from the spiritual. The physical becomes inferior to the spiritual and what they mean by spiritual is more Greek than biblical.
- Strict RPWs say that early church worship grew out of the synagogue not the Temple. But where are the explicit commands in Scripture for what ought to be done in the synagogue? Where are the regulations? There are none... if we were to be true to this we would merely gather and sit silently. Or we must admit that NC worship is not regulated in the way strict RPWs say it is.
- No where does Scripture command baptisms to be performed within the worship service. Is it forbidden?
Instruments:
- If the Temple was a type of heavenly worship and included instruments, and if heavenly worship in Revelation includes instrument, and if we are to pray that God's will be done on earth as in heaven... where does that leave instruments in the equation?
- Scripture explicitly tells us to sing with instruments. It no where commands a capella singing.
Maturity
- Worship became increasingly more glorious as the OT progressed
- Our understanding of worship should grow in maturity as history progresses and the church herself matures in biblical fidelity
- As history progresses and becomes more glorious, so too should our worship - we don't have to stay in the catacombs forever
- If worship is glorious in heaven, and was glorious in the OT, why can't it be glorious now?
- Paul's whole argument is that, because we are mature, we are free to observe days, or NOT to observe them.
June 17, 2017
The Elements of Worship
terminism: defining one term by its other. There is a tendency to reduce everything in theology to laws. Laws are important, but God didn’t always do that. There are types, symbols, analogies, etc (66). This means God is only allowed to communicate his desires via commands and not in patterns.
Disclaimer: I am certainly NOT advocating Jordan’s approach to worship nor really much else associated with the man. But I do think Jordan neatly summarizes the situation and points out several flaws in some (not all) RPW approaches. Jordan’s thesis is more or less correct: As (practical) Nestorianism is the separating the human and divine natures in Christ, leading to a diminution of the human nature, so liturgical Nestorianism means keeping the human so far away from worship that he is nothing more than a recipient who hears preaching sings (a little).
Initial key points:
(1) Strict RPW advocates charge any kind of maximalism in worship as going back to OT types and shadows, as best seen in Roman Catholic worship. Jordan asks the obvious question: “Why do you assume (without proof) that Rome got Old Covenant worship correct?”
(2) The contrast in biblical is not a move from exterior to interior (this is Plato on crack) but from glory to glory. The goal is eschatological maturation, not Platonic interiorizing.
(3) Strict RPW advocates claim that a) NT worship is based on the Synagogue and not the Temple; and b) NT worship is regulated by God by direct command. Jordan points out that obvious: If this is true, then it is a meeting of silence. Nowhere does God command what goes on in the Synagogue. God simply commanded a holy convocation every Sabbath (Lev. 23). He didn’t say anything else.
(4)If something is “Fulfilled” in the New Covenant why do we normally assume that “fulfilled” means “done away with?” Isn’t this the textbook definition of dispensationalism? Mind you, I don’t think that everything should be done in the New Covenant.
(5) When God commands singing in the Bible, it is always accompanied by instruments. The 4th book of the Psalter (specifically Psalms 90-98) progresses from the arrival to the enthronement of Yahweh’s king). Music is connected with ascension and enthronement (Jordan 37).
(6) Levitical priests weren’t really mediators. There weren’t any mediators before Moses (not systematically). Levitical priests were household servants. Psalm 110 tells us who the true Mediator is in the old covenant. Only priests in union with the Melchizedekian priest-king mediate. But this is exactly what new covenant believers are (44).
(7)Can Revelation be used as an order of worship? Maybe.
Exclusive Psalmody
Jordan points out that Eph. 5.19 and Col. 3:16, which some used to refer to “three types of Psalms,” do not refer to corporate worship at all, but to the daily life of the believer (85).
If the Song is an element in worship, it should be applied the same as other elements (86). When we preach, we use “new words.” When we pray in worship, we use “new words.”
Conclusion
This book highlights all of the weak points in an overly strict interpretation of the Regulative Principle of Worship. Jordan's idiosyncrasies are kept at a blessed minimum.
terminism: defining one term by its other. There is a tendency to reduce everything in theology to laws. Laws are important, but God didn’t always do that. There are types, symbols, analogies, etc (66). This means God is only allowed to communicate his desires via commands and not in patterns.
Disclaimer: I am certainly NOT advocating Jordan’s approach to worship nor really much else associated with the man. But I do think Jordan neatly summarizes the situation and points out several flaws in some (not all) RPW approaches. Jordan’s thesis is more or less correct: As (practical) Nestorianism is the separating the human and divine natures in Christ, leading to a diminution of the human nature, so liturgical Nestorianism means keeping the human so far away from worship that he is nothing more than a recipient who hears preaching sings (a little).
Initial key points:
(1) Strict RPW advocates charge any kind of maximalism in worship as going back to OT types and shadows, as best seen in Roman Catholic worship. Jordan asks the obvious question: “Why do you assume (without proof) that Rome got Old Covenant worship correct?”
(2) The contrast in biblical is not a move from exterior to interior (this is Plato on crack) but from glory to glory. The goal is eschatological maturation, not Platonic interiorizing.
(3) Strict RPW advocates claim that a) NT worship is based on the Synagogue and not the Temple; and b) NT worship is regulated by God by direct command. Jordan points out that obvious: If this is true, then it is a meeting of silence. Nowhere does God command what goes on in the Synagogue. God simply commanded a holy convocation every Sabbath (Lev. 23). He didn’t say anything else.
(4)If something is “Fulfilled” in the New Covenant why do we normally assume that “fulfilled” means “done away with?” Isn’t this the textbook definition of dispensationalism? Mind you, I don’t think that everything should be done in the New Covenant.
(5) When God commands singing in the Bible, it is always accompanied by instruments. The 4th book of the Psalter (specifically Psalms 90-98) progresses from the arrival to the enthronement of Yahweh’s king). Music is connected with ascension and enthronement (Jordan 37).
(6) Levitical priests weren’t really mediators. There weren’t any mediators before Moses (not systematically). Levitical priests were household servants. Psalm 110 tells us who the true Mediator is in the old covenant. Only priests in union with the Melchizedekian priest-king mediate. But this is exactly what new covenant believers are (44).
(7)Can Revelation be used as an order of worship? Maybe.
Exclusive Psalmody
Jordan points out that Eph. 5.19 and Col. 3:16, which some used to refer to “three types of Psalms,” do not refer to corporate worship at all, but to the daily life of the believer (85).
If the Song is an element in worship, it should be applied the same as other elements (86). When we preach, we use “new words.” When we pray in worship, we use “new words.”
Conclusion
This book highlights all of the weak points in an overly strict interpretation of the Regulative Principle of Worship. Jordan's idiosyncrasies are kept at a blessed minimum.
February 9, 2009
Jordan does a great job of showing how any non-catholic (with a small 'c') approach to worship and liturgy innevitably leads to a "two-person" view of the Church (hence, Nestorian worship). Very insightful.
November 23, 2011
Good. Helps if you read the book this pamphlet is meant to critique.
July 22, 2013
This is a companion to Jordan's Thesis on Worship, which since it is.a commentary on a book I didn't have, it was a little less vital, but useful stuff nonetheless.
June 8, 2012
Great book defending liturgical worship over minimalism in worship.
Displaying 1 - 7 of 7 reviews