What do you think?
Rate this book
Folk Tale, Fiction and Saga in the Homeric Epics
Retired library book. In excellent condition. No dust jacket.
Hardcover
First published January 1, 1962
About the author
Rhys Carpenter
54 books1 followerFrom wikipedia: Rhys Carpenter (August 5, 1889 – January 2, 1980) was an American classical art historian and professor at Bryn Mawr College.
Carpenter was unconventional as a scholar. He analyzed Greek art from the standpoint of artistic production and behavior. He argued for dating the Greek alphabet to the eighth century B.C.
Early life and career
Carpenter was born in Cotuit, Massachusetts in 1889. He received his B.A. in Classics from Columbia University in 1909. Carpenter won a Rhodes scholarship at the University of Oxford, studying at Balliol College. There he published his own poetry and earned a second B.A. (1911), upgraded to an M.A. in 1914.
He spent the year 1912–13 at the American School of Classical Studies in Athens. The president of Bryn Mawr College, Martha Carey Thomas (1857–1935) invited Carpenter to establish a department of classical archaeology at the college, which he did while completing his own graduate work at Columbia University; he completed his Ph.D. in 1916 with a dissertation on The Ethics of Euripides.[1]
By 1918 he was already a full professor at Bryn Mawr. In 1918 Carpenter married Eleanor Houston Hill. In 1926 Carpenter became professor at the American School of Classical Studies in Athens, and established the school's journal, Hesperia in 1932. He also was instrumental in the planning of the American excavations of the agora in Athens. He returned to teaching at Bryn Mawr College and also delivered the Martin Classical Lectures at Oberlin College, which appeared in print as The Humanistic Value of Archaeology (1933). He was elected to the American Philosophical Society in 1935.[2] He delivered the Sather lectures in 1946 on "Folk tale, fiction, and saga in the Homeric epics."[3]
Carpenter was unconventional as a scholar. He analyzed Greek art from the standpoint of artistic production and behavior. He argued for dating the Greek alphabet to the eighth century B.C.
Early life and career
Carpenter was born in Cotuit, Massachusetts in 1889. He received his B.A. in Classics from Columbia University in 1909. Carpenter won a Rhodes scholarship at the University of Oxford, studying at Balliol College. There he published his own poetry and earned a second B.A. (1911), upgraded to an M.A. in 1914.
He spent the year 1912–13 at the American School of Classical Studies in Athens. The president of Bryn Mawr College, Martha Carey Thomas (1857–1935) invited Carpenter to establish a department of classical archaeology at the college, which he did while completing his own graduate work at Columbia University; he completed his Ph.D. in 1916 with a dissertation on The Ethics of Euripides.[1]
By 1918 he was already a full professor at Bryn Mawr. In 1918 Carpenter married Eleanor Houston Hill. In 1926 Carpenter became professor at the American School of Classical Studies in Athens, and established the school's journal, Hesperia in 1932. He also was instrumental in the planning of the American excavations of the agora in Athens. He returned to teaching at Bryn Mawr College and also delivered the Martin Classical Lectures at Oberlin College, which appeared in print as The Humanistic Value of Archaeology (1933). He was elected to the American Philosophical Society in 1935.[2] He delivered the Sather lectures in 1946 on "Folk tale, fiction, and saga in the Homeric epics."[3]
Ratings & Reviews
Friends & Following
Create a free account to discover what your friends think of this book!
Community Reviews
Displaying 1 - 3 of 3 reviews
July 27, 2020
This is a provocative analysis of the origins of the Iliad and the Odyssey. Rhys Carpenter argues that the Iliad is a saga (heroical account of historical events) elaborated by fiction (realistic/authentic-seeming details invented by the poet). The Odyssey, he claims, is a folk tale (specifically, an ancient myth common to several cultures that he calls "the Bear son") elaborated by fiction.
Carpenter goes so far as to doubt the historicity of the Trojan War. I would argue that archaeology has hurt his argument here. But his concept of the saga embellished by fiction is, I think, a solid idea of how oral poetry worked.
The Bear son origins of the Odyssey are even more far-fetched, but also more intriguing. Carpenter finds common ground between the underlying myths of the Odyssey and Beowulf, and links them to historical religious rituals recorded by Herodotus and others. Sometimes he has to stretch the facts rather far to fit his scheme: for instance, when Odysseus gives his name to Polyphemus as "Outis" (no-one), Carpenter suggests that this might have originally been "Otis" (with an omega). In this way, Odysseus can match with the "bear son," who has bear ears (os, otis in Greek). Hmm....
Even if you aren't completely convinced by his arguments, you may find this an enjoyable, thought-provoking, and relatively quick read. And it's worth saying you can get a lot from this book without knowing much or any Greek.
Carpenter goes so far as to doubt the historicity of the Trojan War. I would argue that archaeology has hurt his argument here. But his concept of the saga embellished by fiction is, I think, a solid idea of how oral poetry worked.
The Bear son origins of the Odyssey are even more far-fetched, but also more intriguing. Carpenter finds common ground between the underlying myths of the Odyssey and Beowulf, and links them to historical religious rituals recorded by Herodotus and others. Sometimes he has to stretch the facts rather far to fit his scheme: for instance, when Odysseus gives his name to Polyphemus as "Outis" (no-one), Carpenter suggests that this might have originally been "Otis" (with an omega). In this way, Odysseus can match with the "bear son," who has bear ears (os, otis in Greek). Hmm....
Even if you aren't completely convinced by his arguments, you may find this an enjoyable, thought-provoking, and relatively quick read. And it's worth saying you can get a lot from this book without knowing much or any Greek.
Read
August 1, 2023Starts off ok, but quickly descends into speculative Velikovskyism. Take a pass.
November 24, 2019
Rhys Carpenter makes an interesting argument for the idea that many of the Epic poems of the Western Tradition share common elements. He attempts to link them all to a root story, much like linguists might take the words of modern languages back to an Indo-European root.
In his search for a common myth that informed the creation of all the stories, I think he ignores the possibility that commonalities may exist between epics from all over Europe because the experiences of the people may have led them to make up the same kinds of stories.
Another possibility is that the stories are all remakes of the same one, with local color, as Carpenter argues, but that root story may be much less developed than he seems to be implying. In other words, I got the impression that Carpenter thinks there was some kind of "original epic" out there. But it seems to me there may just be repeated themes, like the man with the hook hand finding the kids at the campfire.
Overall it was an interesting read, as it even gave some insight into Punxsutawney Phil, the groundhog who predicts the weather.
Carpenter spends a lot of time talking about the "bear myth" and how a common theme is a bear, or a person, goes into a cave for various lengths of time and is reborn or returns from death to life. He points this out and suggests that it comes from a Northern European tradition that made its way to the Mediterranean and the Ancient Greeks.
But in all of this he ignores -- or is it carefully avoids? -- the Christian resurrection. Why that should be any different than the other stories he talks about is not clear. The parallels, especially with some of the other specific stories he raised in the book, are too close to ignore.
In his search for a common myth that informed the creation of all the stories, I think he ignores the possibility that commonalities may exist between epics from all over Europe because the experiences of the people may have led them to make up the same kinds of stories.
Another possibility is that the stories are all remakes of the same one, with local color, as Carpenter argues, but that root story may be much less developed than he seems to be implying. In other words, I got the impression that Carpenter thinks there was some kind of "original epic" out there. But it seems to me there may just be repeated themes, like the man with the hook hand finding the kids at the campfire.
Overall it was an interesting read, as it even gave some insight into Punxsutawney Phil, the groundhog who predicts the weather.
Carpenter spends a lot of time talking about the "bear myth" and how a common theme is a bear, or a person, goes into a cave for various lengths of time and is reborn or returns from death to life. He points this out and suggests that it comes from a Northern European tradition that made its way to the Mediterranean and the Ancient Greeks.
But in all of this he ignores -- or is it carefully avoids? -- the Christian resurrection. Why that should be any different than the other stories he talks about is not clear. The parallels, especially with some of the other specific stories he raised in the book, are too close to ignore.
Displaying 1 - 3 of 3 reviews