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Discuss Pride & Prejudice 2009 > Discuss Chapters 13-23

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message 1: by SarahC, Austen Votary & Mods' Asst. (new)

SarahC (SarahCarmack) | 1473 comments Mod
This is the next section of our P&P discussion.


message 2: by SarahC, Austen Votary & Mods' Asst. (new)

SarahC (SarahCarmack) | 1473 comments Mod
If anyone is ready to begin discussing this section...

Sometimes the folders are hidden at the end of the list, so I thought I would bring it forward.


message 3: by Kimberly (new)

Kimberly Hulst (KimberlyHulst) | 76 comments Mr. Collins as loose witted and butt kissing as he is; is the level of reality women of that time were matched up with. His character gets dumped on and hated by fans all the time, but he is I think the icon for the bad guy who isn't evil. He is not trying to trick anyone out of their money or their pants. He is infact the male version of the girls. In order to keep a roof over his own head, marriage is a must. He realizes that his choices are very limited and settles for what he can secure.


message 4: by [deleted user] (new)

Kimberly I agree that he feels he must marry at this time, but I don't believe that he felt that his choices were limited. In fact, I believe that he feels he is quite the catch. After all he has the priviliage of securing the patronage of lady catherine de bourgh and he holds a secure income and is actually quite proud of all he's accomplished. I'm sure he feels that it would be quite the privilage of any young woman to be his wife.


message 5: by [deleted user] (new)

How does Elizabeth respond to Mr. Collins's proposal? What does her response reveal about her character?


message 6: by Kimberly (new)

Kimberly Hulst (KimberlyHulst) | 76 comments Ashley wrote: "Kimberly I agree that he feels he must marry at this time, but I don't believe that he felt that his choices were limited. In fact, I believe that he feels he is quite the catch. After all he has t..."

But he could very well loose his patronage if he does not marry right then. He might think he's the hottest thing since sliced bread, but if Lady Catherine decides to remove him ; he's toast.



message 7: by Kimberly (new)

Kimberly Hulst (KimberlyHulst) | 76 comments Ashley wrote: "How does Elizabeth respond to Mr. Collins's proposal? What does her response reveal about her character?"
I am actually going to jump characters on you to keep a bit of continuity.
Elizabeth's meeting Mr. Wickham happens before Mr. Collin's proposal.

Why do you think Mr. Wickam is so believable? How many other women has fallen for him? Why do you think all the Bennet women feel they are the subject of his affection?

And do you feel that when Jane Austen was writing this part, she was meaning to have Wickham as the hero not Darcy?



message 8: by SarahC, Austen Votary & Mods' Asst. (last edited Feb 06, 2009 01:35PM) (new)

SarahC (SarahCarmack) | 1473 comments Mod
I dont believe Austen meant to go too deeply into the character of Wickham. I tend to see him as a device to make a common connection between the families of Darcy and Eliza. I don't mean that too sound too mechanical though. Austen created this part of the story beautifully.


message 9: by [deleted user] (last edited Feb 07, 2009 04:20PM) (new)

No, I don't believe Wickham was ever thought to be the hero. I believe darcy was always expected to fill that part. However, I believe Wickham served as a reason for Elizabeth to confirm her own prejudices agains darcy. She was quick sympathize with his story and believe darcy to be that wicked.


message 10: by Amy (new)

Amy (amy_lofgreen) | 9 comments I think Mr. Wickham serves a much more important role in Austen's work. All her works seem to not only be a delightful romance, but is also a charcter teaching work. She warns her readers of the charming, slick, handsome, evil man. Don't we all need to be reminded of him. I bet you each have known a Mr. Wickham who enthralled girl after girl and devoured them. We have Mr. Wickham in P&P, Mr. Willoughby in S&S, Mr. Elliott in Persuasion, and Mr. Churchill in Emma. Austen is clearly illustrating the perils of such a man. Coincidently, she also warns about getting married merely for money. Austen is best at character studies and she does it in such a charming way you never have to get preached at. It is for this reason, I believe, that Mr. Wickham takes center stage for awhile.


message 11: by Deb (new)

Deb | 13 comments Isn't Mr. Wickham also an object of Eliza's "prejudice"? She was as quick to believe him virtuous as she was quick to believe that Darcy is a villian. Mr. Wickham, we find, has a superficial charm, whereas, Darcy is too reserved to see him clearly at first.


message 12: by Amy (new)

Amy (amy_lofgreen) | 9 comments Deb,
I love your comment. Yes, exactly.


message 13: by SarahC, Austen Votary & Mods' Asst. (new)

SarahC (SarahCarmack) | 1473 comments Mod
I love all the comments as well! Mr. Wickham can really stir up some conversation!

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. When I see Wickham as a "device" as I mentioned earlier, it is because he is mainly "offstage," going about doing these things that he is doing. There is very little dialogue with him and mainly we "hear" about his mischief and "feel" his impact on our main characters.

There is also the interesting conversation between Eliza and Aunt Gardiner about Wickham pursuing Miss King for money, which figures largely into one of the main themes. Still, there, he is an object of conversation and a link between the two families rather than in the forefront as a main character.


message 14: by Kathryn (last edited Feb 20, 2009 12:54PM) (new)

Kathryn | 98 comments I actually think one of the most irritating things about Mr C is also why he is so memorable and that, as has been said, is that he is NOT the "bad guy" he is simply an obnoxious, self-absorbed individual trying to accomplish all the milestones that his patroness and his career dictate--but he does not do so in any sort of conniving or cruel way. He is also bound by other senses of duty, such as choosing one of the Bennett girls to marry so the money and house will stay "in the family." If he had a different personality, in fact, this might have seemed a very honorable and attractive gesture! Yet... as it is...!!! :-x


message 15: by SarahC, Austen Votary & Mods' Asst. (new)

SarahC (SarahCarmack) | 1473 comments Mod
You are funny, Kathryn, but right on the nose! I like it when Mr. C. is discussed because he doesnt get much air time, so to speak. He is an important character in the story though and it is interesting to look at all his actions. I agree that he might need some credit for at least considering a family marriage connection desirable.


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