Arthuriana -- all things King Arthur ! discussion
The Winter King by B. Cornwell
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Part Three: The Return of Merlin
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SarahC
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Jan 22, 2009 07:38AM

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Arthur is Merlin's sword
as
Derfel is Nimue's sword
That simple statement says so much.
Did it seem Arthur could have given Derfel more warning about the conditions and what the people were like in Armorica? His warning seemed to be only that Lancelot could be difficult!

It seems that BK is still setting the pace of the story. Part Three is The Return of Merlin, but he only returns briefly and disappears. He does give Derfel some wisdom first. And, no spoilers, Part Four, moves on to Nimue.
It does seem the pace of a Malory-type of book maybe.?. I know a thread is forming, but the incidents still seem separated to me.
It does seem the pace of a Malory-type of book maybe.?. I know a thread is forming, but the incidents still seem separated to me.

He seems to dwell on brutality rather than the beauty.
Plus, Lancelot is such a ninny. Sigh. I want Lancelot to be strong and chivalrous.
It was sad when the library went up in smoke, sigh. A civilized word needs its poets.
Yes, Arthur, Arthur in the story did seem to send Derfel to a great challenge in hopes he would gain success and glory. Maybe he didnt feel the need to warn him of anything, just hoping for blind success from a young, brave, dedicated warrior.
Yes, Dee the brutality is heavy. And shockingly from Lancelot -- he also raped the harpist who was loved by Galahad. (Again BK is mixing the generations with Galahad as Lancelot's brother.)
Nimue still seeking revenge herself, and doubtless some revenge will probably be dosed upon Lancelot at some point. Cornwell still has me curious about his characters.
Yes, Dee the brutality is heavy. And shockingly from Lancelot -- he also raped the harpist who was loved by Galahad. (Again BK is mixing the generations with Galahad as Lancelot's brother.)
Nimue still seeking revenge herself, and doubtless some revenge will probably be dosed upon Lancelot at some point. Cornwell still has me curious about his characters.

A lot happens at once like the fact Arthur is staying with Guinevere instead of defending his kingdom. Derfel also later then learned Nimue is on the Isle of the Dead.

It also bothers me that King Arthur can be dubbed so easily. That he (King Arthur) is still so enamored with Gwen’s charms that his intuition ceases to exist.
What bothers me the most about the Winter King, is that besides Derfel, there is a total lack of chivalry. The Arthurian Legends is based on that one word!
Gets off of soapbox, remembering that this is just a story :)
So our first glance into Merlin. I loved his nutty/quirkiness. I love characters that are on the edge. We get the sense that he is "playing the game" at a different level. Will Bernard expose Merlin's plans fully? I'm not sure I want to know. I like having to guess.
Arthur sending Derfel to Armorica was simply a logical decision. Arthur could not go so sent his best.
Lancelot is an intriguing character so far. I think we can all agree that he falls short of the classical Lancelot character. I wonder though if BC isn't setting Lancelot up for a major change. Will he experience some profound moment that will shake him to the core?
Chivalry, or the lack of, is an interesting topic. Lancelot in my mind is the embodiment of chivalry, at least as his character is classically known, not Bernard's. And yet we know that ultimately he commits a most un-chivalric act. In the end Arthur, and I, forgive him. So, if chivalry is not perfection and Arthur is still young (though clearly battle tested) we see a man making many mistakes. I will only be disappointed if he doesn't learn from these mistakes by the time he becomes king.
The mantle of chivalry, at least toward women, is squarely hung above Derfel. Arthur is very chivalric when it comes to soldiers and his enemies. In fact it could be argued that he is so chivalric that he puts himself at a disadvantage. His attitude towards women though can almost be described as "disinterested...except for Gwen.
Arthur sending Derfel to Armorica was simply a logical decision. Arthur could not go so sent his best.
Lancelot is an intriguing character so far. I think we can all agree that he falls short of the classical Lancelot character. I wonder though if BC isn't setting Lancelot up for a major change. Will he experience some profound moment that will shake him to the core?
Chivalry, or the lack of, is an interesting topic. Lancelot in my mind is the embodiment of chivalry, at least as his character is classically known, not Bernard's. And yet we know that ultimately he commits a most un-chivalric act. In the end Arthur, and I, forgive him. So, if chivalry is not perfection and Arthur is still young (though clearly battle tested) we see a man making many mistakes. I will only be disappointed if he doesn't learn from these mistakes by the time he becomes king.
The mantle of chivalry, at least toward women, is squarely hung above Derfel. Arthur is very chivalric when it comes to soldiers and his enemies. In fact it could be argued that he is so chivalric that he puts himself at a disadvantage. His attitude towards women though can almost be described as "disinterested...except for Gwen.
Anna - I think you are right. If you can't "let go", this book and presumably the rest of the series will be very hard to get through, never mind enjoy.

{As to the brutality, well, I am sure that is something that we can all agree on, it was a brutal time in history. I also read Stephen King, but that does not mean that I condone violence, just that I appreciate great writing...and Cornwell is a great writer...not a great “traditional” Arthurian Legends' author, but a great writer none the less}
...however, I shall never "let go" of my need to believe that there was a time when the values of Camelot existed and chivalry lived. Nope, not gonna do it :]
Even so, I am still enjoying the tale Cornwell weaves (blood, guts, gore and all).
*Buys a pint for every one*
Dee - I missed your comments about Arthur/Merlin, Derfel/Nimue. So true though. Thanks for highlighting. It seems in many ways Derfel is the proxy not just for Arthur but for other Arthurian characters. The purity of Perceval, the chivalry of Lancelot, the stubbornness of Arthur. Others??
Anna - We knew what you meant and concur with the sentiment! :)
Anna - We knew what you meant and concur with the sentiment! :)
Bob, I have been thinking the same thing for pages-- I like how you stated it -- Derfel as proxy. He certainly is playing the role of confidant also, like Cai or Bedwyr, or whichever version you might follow. His character and internal mood reminds me of Lancelot in some versions, Gawain in others (when Gawain is being portrayed as sensitive).
It must be exciting for an author to create a new character to walk the traditional stage and pick up many of the traditional characteristics of the people in Arthur's world. Then, once created, he doesnt have to follow any traditional tales. He can make Derfel, our example here, do anything he wants him to as far as plot/story.
It must be exciting for an author to create a new character to walk the traditional stage and pick up many of the traditional characteristics of the people in Arthur's world. Then, once created, he doesnt have to follow any traditional tales. He can make Derfel, our example here, do anything he wants him to as far as plot/story.

I like the idea of Lance as being in charge of a host of spin Drs in the guise of bards...that's one of the things they did.
Merlin is doing what I think he should be doing so far.
Now on to Portland Bill...