We're the Kids of America discussion

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message 1: by Koori no hi (new)

Koori no hi i agree that the government shouldn't be allowed to meddle with our beliefs, but what about public schools?
should we be allowde to have a Bible class if it is an elective? should we be allowed to have a Bible club? I think we should. as long as it isn't required, the government isn't having anything to do with religion, and then people who want to go to Christian colleges will be able to be better prepared too.


message 2: by [deleted user] (new)

As long as it isn't required, I have no problem with it.


message 3: by Robin (new)

Robin You should be able to bring a bible in, or pray or whatever at schools. It's not like they're forcing you to pray with them. It's our freedom, our privilege. People are so intent on outlawing it, yeah, well, it's our freedom though. Just like, you have the freedom to not pray, we can pray. Freedom of Religion.


message 4: by Robin (new)

Robin That's just it! People should be allowed to bring their religion with them, as long as they don't force it on others. That's what America's all about.


message 5: by Koori no hi (new)

Koori no hi exactly! not just bible clubs... any other ones.


message 6: by Koori no hi (new)

Koori no hi what i don't see though is people in public schools getting in trouble for wearing that veil thing that Muslim women wear or boys getting in trouble for wearing a yamaka (Sorry about the spelling)


message 7: by Robin (new)

Robin Christianity isn't a religion, it's choice. :)
But if you want a religion, it should be allowed, as long as you don't get all weird. You should be allowed to talk about it though, freedom of speech.


message 8: by ♥ Rachel♥ (new)

♥ Rachel♥   (i_got_a_jar_of_dirt) | 2196 comments dragon_eyes wrote: "what i don't see though is people in public schools getting in trouble for wearing that veil thing that Muslim women wear or boys getting in trouble for wearing a yamaka (Sorry about the spelling)"

u mean a yarmulke? *self is jewish*


message 9: by Koori no hi (new)

Koori no hi ya, i have trouble with spelling in general and even worse trouble with strange words.


message 10: by [deleted user] (new)

dragon_eyes wrote: "what i don't see though is people in public schools getting in trouble for wearing that veil thing that Muslim women wear or boys getting in trouble for wearing a yamaka (Sorry about the spelling)"

No one should be punished for that... it's like you getting punished for wearing a cross necklace.


message 11: by Diana (new)

Diana  (Higura_Natume) | 318 comments i think that as long as the church doesn't control the state it's ok

a little influence was never a bad thing

and on that stuff about praying at schools? you can do it, just people might make fun of you and all...


message 12: by Koori no hi (new)

Koori no hi that's just it!! people aren't getting in trouble for wearing yarmulkes and veils and turbans! but they do get in trouble for having a t-shirt that says "Jesus Rules" on the front. (Speaking from personal experience.)


message 13: by Koori no hi (new)

Koori no hi P.S. I have worn that particular shirt more often since I got into trouble for it. When one of the teachers said something about it I didn't argue or anything i just said, "Freedom of speech" and that ended anything else she was about to say. no one has bothered me since.


message 14: by Robin (new)

Robin Good for you!!


message 15: by Vivian (new)

Vivian | 159 comments Thats awesome dragon_eyes!


message 16: by Molly's Sister (new)

Molly's Sister Good for you, Dragon_eyes!


message 17: by Lauren, radical atheist...beware! (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 2702 comments Mod
"and on that stuff about praying at schools? you can do it, just people might make fun of you and all... "

But schools can make no rules banning or encouraging thereof. If I wanted to start a Humanist club, I could. The point is, as long as the club is not based in a hate, it should be allowed. But the school cannot favor one club over the others.


message 18: by ♥ Rachel♥ (new)

♥ Rachel♥   (i_got_a_jar_of_dirt) | 2196 comments XD awesome dragon_eyes!


message 19: by Lauren, radical atheist...beware! (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 2702 comments Mod
What did the shirt say?


message 20: by ♥ Rachel♥ (new)

♥ Rachel♥   (i_got_a_jar_of_dirt) | 2196 comments "Jesus Rules"


message 21: by Lauren, radical atheist...beware! (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 2702 comments Mod
Oh, thought dragoneyes was talking about someone else's shirt.


message 22: by ♥ Rachel♥ (new)

♥ Rachel♥   (i_got_a_jar_of_dirt) | 2196 comments both i think...


message 23: by Lauren, radical atheist...beware! (last edited Mar 17, 2009 06:40PM) (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 2702 comments Mod
On the separation of church and state...

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
— Thomas Jefferson

He's a smart'um, that Tommy. :D

In essence, the government has no place in religion, and vica versa.


message 24: by ♥ Rachel♥ (new)

♥ Rachel♥   (i_got_a_jar_of_dirt) | 2196 comments i agree


message 25: by Conor (new)

Conor (i got me some bathing apes!) | 270 comments Exactly. You can wear anything that's not offensive to school, start Jesus clubs and muhameed clubs and all that. But we should take " under god" out of the pledge. And swearing on the bible and all that


message 26: by Lauren, radical atheist...beware! (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 2702 comments Mod
Because the government shows favoritism to religion through those things.


message 27: by Diana (new)

Diana  (Higura_Natume) | 318 comments i don't mind principles in religion getting into the government

(i.e. love thy neighbor, etc)

but i don't think it should go any farther than that

and on the president with religion, blah? america voted him on, america will shut up and deal with the way he incorporates his religious beliefs into politics

but back in Thomas's time, most people were more worried about the state interfering with the church so most people wanted it separated anyway (but for different reasons)


message 28: by Lauren, radical atheist...beware! (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 2702 comments Mod
"986722 i don't mind principles in religion getting into the government

(i.e. love thy neighbor, etc)"


Those principle were stole from the pagans in the first place. Christianity didn't make those up. Same with Christmas, all traditions were pagan rituals to honor the sun, not the son.


message 29: by ♥ Rachel♥ (new)

♥ Rachel♥   (i_got_a_jar_of_dirt) | 2196 comments (lolz sun-son)

i wonder what would happen when there's a non-christian president? or an atheist president?


message 30: by Diana (new)

Diana  (Higura_Natume) | 318 comments i never said it was christian principle

im just saying i don't mind principles of religion influencing the government


message 31: by ♥ Rachel♥ (new)

♥ Rachel♥   (i_got_a_jar_of_dirt) | 2196 comments oh no i was thinking about taking the oath


message 32: by Diana (new)

Diana  (Higura_Natume) | 318 comments talking to lauren so don't mind


message 33: by ♥ Rachel♥ (new)

♥ Rachel♥   (i_got_a_jar_of_dirt) | 2196 comments oh ok


message 34: by Lauren, radical atheist...beware! (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 2702 comments Mod
Religion, however, is not full of fun principle. Not all of them should be followed, and rather then pick and choose, just ignore the religion influence altogether and think of something that always works, not sometimes.


message 35: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (ruren) America was built on the idea of separation of church and state, and we say that we do
But in public schools we pledge allegience "under god"
or when Obama was inaugurated a minister spoke, and there was some big deal about what church he would worship in and all that
there really is no separation anymore...


message 36: by Jayda (new)

Jayda I don't think that there should even be a separation. If you're of a particular religion, you should be allowed to worship however you wish, where ever you wish, whenever you wish. Now, I don't necessarily mean killing people to show that you're worthy to join a cult, or something like that. But praying in school, reading the Bible/having Bible studies in school shouldn't be a big deal. Children need to know that religion isn't a bad thing that's only meant for the home. If that's the case, then why is there religion? Religion should be for all places, and all times.


message 37: by Lauren, radical atheist...beware! (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 2702 comments Mod
"But in public schools we pledge allegience "under god"

Added in Cold War. Not what our Founders intended.

"I don't think that there should even be a separation. If you're of a particular religion, you should be allowed to worship however you wish, where ever you wish, whenever you wish."

It's called the 1st amendment. Religion and government don't mixed, so the government has no control of religion, and we can't become a theocracy. Do you really want a theocracy? No.

"But praying in school, reading the Bible/having Bible studies in school shouldn't be a big deal. "

It's a big deal to the Jewish, Hindu, Atheist, Buddhist, Muslim, and Pagan kids. Who would be forced to participate in worship they don't believe in. What if you were forced to read the Qur'ran every day? Or the Communist Manifesto? Everyday.

"Children need to know that religion isn't a bad thing that's only meant for the home."

If you want to pray, go to a church. That's what they're built for, right? Pray in your head silently, if you must. Don't force everyone to bend to your ideas.

"If that's the case, then why is there religion? Religion should be for all places, and all times. "

If that's what you want, move to the Middle East.


message 38: by Jayda (new)

Jayda The government and religion might not mix, but we have God in the government all of the time. Anyway, schools shouldn't be run by the government. The government should have no control over whether or not religious studies is put into the schools, or allowed in the schools

"What if you were forced to read the Qur'ran every day? Or the Communist Manifesto? Everyday."

I NEVER said in my post that people should be forced to read the Bible. I honestly meant in general religious studies, but since I'm Mormon, and read the Bible and The Book of Mormon, I said Bible because where I live the great majority of religions (at least in my county) follow the Bible. There should be choices for what religion you want to study, if any at all. No one should be forced to read/do what they don't want too.

"Don't force everyone to bend to your ideas."

Praying/being religious in public shouldn't be a big deal or a bad thing (though I don't agree with absolute public display). What I mean is that religion shouldn't only be for homes or churches. We should have the choice, not be forced, to allow our beliefs into our everyday life.

"If that's what you want, move to the Middle East."

No thanks. I'm talking about whenever we need religion, we should be allowed to display it or discuss it without getting in trouble for something so simple and natural. I'm not saying every second of every day should be absolute religion. I'm saying that no matter what time or place, we should be able to display our religion. I don't think we should be zealous when in public, but we shouldn't have to hide our religions.


message 39: by Lauren, radical atheist...beware! (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 2702 comments Mod
"God in the government all of the time. "

How?

"schools shouldn't be run by the government"

Schools are a secular institution. It matters not who runs them, but how they run them.

"I said Bible because where I live the great majority of religions (at least in my county) follow the Bible. "

There are too many different religions in schools to make a program suited for all of them. So, just leave it for the house of worship. You're in school to learn, not to pray.

"Praying/being religious in public shouldn't be a big deal or a bad thing (though I don't agree with absolute public display). What I mean is that religion shouldn't only be for homes or churches. We should have the choice, not be forced, to allow our beliefs into our everyday life. "

If some people want to make a prayer group or whatever, then let them. It's when the administration makes something mandatory for everywhere, where we have problems.

"I'm talking about whenever we need religion, we should be allowed to display it or discuss it without getting in trouble for something so simple and natural."

People can talk about religion, but there is a difference between a debate or a discussion and indoctrination.

"but we shouldn't have to hide our religions.
"

People can wear crosses to school. They can pray if they want. But they shouldn't take time out of learning for a prayer time, or for bible study, unless it's a class to take.


message 40: by Jayda (new)

Jayda "How?"

As the other Lauren commented, at Obama's inauguration a minister spoke. We still say "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance (in public schools which are run by the government), a lot of people cared about religion when Romney was trying to get into the election, etcetera. The founding fathers never meant that separation of church state was that God wasn't in the government - they meant that they didn't want the government in the churches. Because in England the Church of England ruled everything they wanted a government that didn't rule the churches and freedom of religion.

"Schools are a secular institution. It matters not who runs them, but how they run them."

And in my opinion, the government does a very crappy job at running them.

"You're in school to learn, not to pray."

Learning about religion is just that, learning. If you don't want to go to a religious class than you don't have too. If you want a certain religion than perhaps you can speak to the principal about it and maybe they can go to people who are higher up and suggest it. But praying isn't a bad thing, especially when done in school.

"It's when the administration makes something mandatory for everywhere, where we have problems."

I never said that you were forced to have religion. If you reread my posts I never, ever said that. What I'm saying is that it should be an option and a choice that we're allowed to make, no matter where we are.

"But they shouldn't take time out of learning for a prayer time, or for bible study, unless it's a class to take."

If they want too, they should be allowed too. I think that religion should be in all schools, not just private schools or just at church.


message 41: by Lauren, radical atheist...beware! (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 2702 comments Mod
"The founding fathers never meant that separation of church state was that God wasn't in the government - they meant that they didn't want the government in the churches."

They saw what happened when both mixed with the other. They knew that people needed freedom (they all read Locke) and they knew that a combination of the two would be a Dark Age.

"And in my opinion, the government does a very crappy job at running them. "

I don't know the condition of your school. My school is very nice. So, whoever is running my school is doing a good job. :/

"I think that religion should be in all schools, not just private schools or just at church. "

The form of which it takes is the issue. Give some an inch, and they take the whole nine yards. That's why they have to be kept out of schools, they won't want to stop.


message 42: by Jayda (new)

Jayda "... they knew that a combination of the two would be a Dark Age."

How would it be a dark age? They didn't want us to ignore that religion is a part of life, a part of their lives. They didn't want the government controlling what the churches did and taught. The Church of England controlled everything that they had to believe in. They weren't allowed to believe in anything else, which is why people came to the New World, America, for religious freedom.

"I don't know the condition of your school. My school is very nice. So, whoever is running my school is doing a good job. :/"

Our school isn't terrible (though I don't actually go there). I'm talking about how they teach. One reason that I'm home schooled is because in class they teach to the dumbest student, and if you're far past that, then oh well. Also, they only teach from one political view/stand-point, liberal/democrat. Which mean sthat they're saying that we're going to all die if we don't believe that Global Warming is man-made. Yet they all drive away in a nice car that doesn't help pollution. That's what I mean. They should teach from both sides of the spectrum, not just from one side. Technically speaking, that's almost brain-washing. If you don't offer up the other side, then how will they know what they actually want to believe in?

"That's why they have to be kept out of schools, they won't want to stop."

Religion should be stopped. Religion should be a part of every day life, and if that means that kids go to a religious class than I highly recommend it. You shouldn't be forced, as I've said above, but it should be an option. And if their teachers want to go the whole 9-yards, let them. If the students don't like it, let them leave the class.


message 43: by Lauren, radical atheist...beware! (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 2702 comments Mod
"They didn't want us to ignore that religion is a part of life, a part of their lives. "

The Dark Ages was when religion could control and repress everything. To prevent that from happening, they cannot gain control over anything that is a government function.

"One reason that I'm home schooled is because in class they teach to the dumbest student, and if you're far past that, then oh well."

Well, it used to be like that, but after I got into high school and on all honors, that didn't happen anymore.

"Also, they only teach from one political view/stand-point, liberal/democrat. Which mean sthat they're saying that we're going to all die if we don't believe that Global Warming is man-made. Yet they all drive away in a nice car that doesn't help pollution. That's what I mean. They should teach from both sides of the spectrum, not just from one side. Technically speaking, that's almost brain-washing. If you don't offer up the other side, then how will they know what they actually want to believe in? "

We watched the debate team discuss Global Warming. We learn about both points of view. The only limit is what is actually possible. If it has no base in fact, then they won't teach it.

"Religion should be stopped. Religion should be a part of every day life, and if that means that kids go to a religious class than I highly recommend it. You shouldn't be forced, as I've said above, but it should be an option. And if their teachers want to go the whole 9-yards, let them. If the students don't like it, let them leave the class."

If they want religion, they go to a religious class. But if the class was not geared toward religion, or if that was not mentioned in the course selection, then the teacher just can pull that on us, a captive audience by definition. If we wanted that, we would go to a religion class.


message 44: by Jayda (new)

Jayda "The Dark Ages was when religion could control and repress everything. To prevent that from happening, they cannot gain control over anything that is a government function."

And we aren't headed for the dark ages, are we? I don't think that religion will be able to control the government. There are so many different religions in America nowadays that it just seems very unlikely to me that ONE of them is going to control how the government works.

"Well, it used to be like that, but after I got into high school and on all honors, that didn't happen anymore."

All honors is when you're ahead in a class, right? If that's the case, then I wouldn't be surprised if they still do that in the normal classroom.

"We watched the debate team discuss Global Warming. We learn about both points of view. The only limit is what is actually possible. If it has no base in fact, then they won't teach it."

Debate team is entirely different from, say, science class. In science class doesn't your teacher say that we're causing global warming and that the only way to stop it is to stop emitting CO2 emissions into the air? Then doesn't he/she drive off in a car, emitting their own CO2 emissions? I don't mean debate group where you can obviously see both sides - I mean in the classroom, when one teacher has one view-point, and won't teach the other side.

"If they want religion, they go to a religious class. But if the class was not geared toward religion, or if that was not mentioned in the course selection, then the teacher just can pull that on us, a captive audience by definition. If we wanted that, we would go to a religion class."

They'd obviously have to state that they're a religious class. Why wouldn't they state that they're a religious class if that's what the intend to be?


message 45: by Lauren, radical atheist...beware! (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 2702 comments Mod
"There are so many different religions in America nowadays that it just seems very unlikely to me that ONE of them is going to control how the government works."

The fundies have a far reach.

"All honors is when you're ahead in a class, right? If that's the case, then I wouldn't be surprised if they still do that in the normal classroom."

Honors is a separate class. It's an exclusive environment.

"n science class doesn't your teacher say that we're causing global warming and that the only way to stop it is to stop emitting CO2 emissions into the air? Then doesn't he/she drive off in a car, emitting their own CO2 emissions?"

No. She doesn't force her opinions on us. She tells us that it's what some people believe, maybe she tells us what she thinks, but she doesn't present it as fact.

"They'd obviously have to state that they're a religious class. Why wouldn't they state that they're a religious class if that's what the intend to be?"

There have been cases where religion was sprung on a class.


message 46: by Samantha (new)

Samantha | 7 comments I haven't read any of your comments, i will later but here is a poem that the father of one of the victimes of the Collibine shooting, he wrote it as a poem along time ago , the press was not allowed to share it.
"Your laws ignore our deepest needs,
Your words are empty air.
You've stripped away our heritage,
You've outlawed simple prayer.
Now gunshots fill our classrooms,
And precious children die.
You seek for answers everywhere,
And ask the question "Why?"
You regulate restrictive laws,
Through legislative creed.
And yet you fail to understand,
That God is what we need!"


message 47: by Molly's Sister (new)

Molly's Sister what's the Collibine shooting?


message 48: by ♥ Rachel♥ (new)

♥ Rachel♥   (i_got_a_jar_of_dirt) | 2196 comments columbine u mean? i haven't heard of a collibine...
in it 2 students killed 12 students + a teacher + wounded 23 ppl then committed suicide.


message 49: by Lauren, radical atheist...beware! (new)

Lauren (djinni) | 2702 comments Mod
Google is your friend,


message 50: by ♥ Rachel♥ (new)

♥ Rachel♥   (i_got_a_jar_of_dirt) | 2196 comments yeah but it didn't find a collibine murder either


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