College Students! discussion

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message 1: by Ashley (new)

Ashley (readerandwriter) What are everyone's thoughts about religion? What is everyone's religion. The reason I ask is because, I don't identify with any kind of religion. The main reason being is that I am a lesbian and most religions do not approve of homosexuality. But if I were to identify with a particular religion, it would be Catholicsim because most of my family Catholic.

I guess I am sort of blabbing here. It is just one of those moments where you analyze yourself and can help but share what you have discovered about yourself.


message 2: by Janet (new)

Janet Ok please no judging on this page! Lets not get out of hand! It's just our personal opinions.

I am with you Ashley. I don't identify with any religion. I don't have much knowledge on the subject either. My dad's family is Catholic but I don't really agree with them. My mom has always left it up to my sister and I what we want to do with our relgion. I go to my boyfriend's church and he is a Deciple of Christ. I don't really know what that is but I really do enjoy his church. They accept everyone and just want everyone to have a belief, no matter what that is. It's great.

I am not against any religion, I just don't really agree with some religions for my own personal reasons. I think if people feel how they feel and don't judge me for me, then I won't judge them for them! I think religion can be a great thing, especially when it makes you happy.


message 3: by Lynn (new)

Lynn I'm Catholic and my whole dad's side is Catholic as far back as anyone can tell (which is a real long time cuz grandma can trace everyone and his cousin back to Adam). I go to Mass every Sunday (or Saturday nights which I prefer) but I don't think my relationship with God is as strong as other people's. I don't really like praying b/c it's never given me comfort in my hard times and idk... I hate to say it but it just feels pointless lots of times... but I'm trying to get better at it.

I consider myself really open minded. My family is really welcoming of all different kinds of people. I have gay friends and relatives. We have close Jewish friends. I have agnostic friends. Etc.. I didn't realize that my family was so different in that regard..

I take some ministry classes at my Catholic university b/c I actually thought about majoring in it. I've noticed that a lot of people (the teacher and students) are really conservative and closed minded. It makes me so mad. I guess they're just too strict to the rules... idk. In my family it's like "You're a good person. We love you."

Ashley, some of my gay friends have been turned away or are currently being turned away from Christianity b/c of people's judgements or whatever. I just want to say that if you came to my church, I would except you 100%! People really need to get back to the whole spirit of the religion which is LOVE.


message 4: by Bree (new)

Bree (breezybaby) | 144 comments I'm Christian I guess..I don't really participate in a religion actively.


message 5: by Ashley (new)

Ashley (readerandwriter) Janet- My mom was the same way with my sister and I. She didn't force religion down our throats. In her opinion we are individuals and have the right to our own belief systems. When I have kids someday, I intend to let them be free to explore different religions and go to church with their friends etc. In other words I intend to do the same thing my mother did with us when it came to religion.

Lynn- Your family sounds really cool. If they are that open minded I can see myself being comfortable around them and just having a good time. We need more families like yours in this world. :)


message 6: by Kimberly (new)

Kimberly (kimberlywithat) | 2140 comments I belong to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, better known as The Mormons. I'm very committed to my religion; it gives me comfort and strength every day. I try to follow the teachings of my leaders closely because I feel that for me personally it makes me a better person.
BUT just because I follow my church’s teachings doesn't mean I expect everyone to do that. I like everyone and all religions, (unless you do something like sacrificing babies, I'd have to draw the line there. hehe) I have several close friends that are gay, they've chosen a different lifestyle but that’s ok with me, they are happy. And that is good enough for me. I have a few relatives that are also gay and it doesn't change my opinion of them. They just make my family more unique. In fact on my mom’s side of the family I’m one of the only Mormons. I have an uncle that is catholic, another that is… well actually I’m not sure what religion he belongs to…. Lol. But we all manage to get along with each other.
My parents raised me LDS, but they haven’t forced me into it, I know for myself that this is right.
I don’t use the teachings of my church to judge others, I use the teachings to judge myself. I’m not perfect and I most certainly don’t expect anyone else to be.
I’m excited for this topic, I really like learning about other religions, it’s interesting to me.



message 7: by Jessica (new)

Jessica | 143 comments I'm Christian..born again..my denomination is Baptist I guess. but i'm not judgmental..that is what bugs me about people in churches that call themselves christians. i became a christian because i believed in God and believed in how Jesus in the Bible was towards people..loving and caring. I don't get Christians who hate people and are mean just because they aren't the same religion. Other people are clearly not going to be turned on to your religion when you do that.


message 8: by Jamie (The Perpetual Page-Turner), The Founding Bookworm (new)

Jamie (The Perpetual Page-Turner) (perpetualpageturner) | 4407 comments Mod
that is exactly how i feel Jessica!


message 9: by sara frances (new)

sara frances (sara_frances) I was raised in a typical Christian household but when I was in my late teens, I realized I only believed it because it was a nice thought. It was comforting but it didn't make any logical sense to me. Plus lots of things I agree with are totally unacceptable to many Christian churches. I told my mother I would love to work for Planned Parenthood and I think she almost started to cry. Oh, well.


message 10: by Kelsey (new)

Kelsey (xtoloveistolivex) | 534 comments I'm a Christian. I don't really have a denomination. I'm very strong in my beliefs, but I'm really disappointed with Christianity today. I think I've said in the past in this group that I think many Christians forget that we are supposed to love our neighbor as ourselves. Jesus preached love, but a lot of people forget about that. Christianity is definitely a source of strength for me. It gives me a sense of purpose and direction in my life. I don't know what I'd do without it! =)


message 11: by Jamie (The Perpetual Page-Turner), The Founding Bookworm (new)

Jamie (The Perpetual Page-Turner) (perpetualpageturner) | 4407 comments Mod
Kelsey..I agree with you..my thoughts exactly..i think that's why i have such a hard time going to church after having gone to a Christian university..i have problems identifying with Christianity these days. I went to a regular, non Christian high school and I honestly didn't feel as judged and was treated better than at my Christian university. it's really sad. I didn't become a Christian to act like that..that's not what drew me in..so i have a hard time being around other Christians as a congregation. I mean..i don't get me wrong..there are wonderful Christians in church..but for the most part..i don't get them..they aren't loving..they are not forgiving. I don't even think they understand Jesus in the Bible. I may not believe in all religions but I love everybody and I really do respect their religions and beliefs even though i might not agree/believe. I absolutely love learning about other peoples religions.


message 12: by Kelsey (new)

Kelsey (xtoloveistolivex) | 534 comments Definitely. I feel like many people in my church are very judgmental and I don't know if they even realize it. We don't have to agree with everything that everybody does, but I still think that we need to remember that we're all sons and daughters of God (or so I believe) and we should all treat each other with love and respect. =)


message 13: by Mykee (new)

Mykee  Tan  (chineseveganboy) | 28 comments I'm Atheist. Well, technically I'm a Christian since I was baptised as a Christian and all that. But deep down, I'm Atheist. I really don't believe in God (Sorry to all those who do believe in Him, Her, It. No offense.). I just don't find any sense to it, religion I mean. There are so many of them that you don't know which one is true. I also think that religion limits your actions and beliefs. In my opinion, it's better to live your life without the rules and to immerse yourself into whatever it is that you want to live by.


message 14: by Ashley (new)

Ashley (readerandwriter) Yeah I definitely think that some people take religion too far and too literally. They let it rule their life instead of using it as a spiritual guide to help them make their decisions.


message 15: by Nuri (new)

Nuri (nools) | 145 comments I'm Christian. I don't really like to divide the Church with denominations, but because it does provide some sort of doctrinal background: I'm Presbyterian by upbringing, something much less conservative in practice. There have been points in my life where I have considered myself and agnostic. I'm grateful for the ways God has stirred up my desire and appreciation for truth and beauty -- and especially for the inclination to find it in people (and books!).

I've been in a rough place as of late, so if you were to ask me why I believe what I do, at this time, my only response is: by grace. In practiced Christianese, I know this sounds like a pretty good Church-answer, but I'm sorry I can't also say things I used to see, like: because He wakes me up every morning with a song; because He shows me His love every day in little things; because of the ways He comforts me with an unshakable knowledge of His promise and goodness.

Because of my Christian experience, it would be a lie for me if I were to ever say: believe what you want, it's okay. I think Jesus, though divine and often invisible to our eyes, is a Real Person you can meet. It might seem really stupid (I definitely know what it's like to be "praying" and then suddenly wonder, in a moment of quiet horror and loneliness, if you're just talking to yourself), but I would be doing you (whoever you are) an unspeakable disservice if I never asked you to at least pop up the question: "God are you there? If you really are, could you let me know, please?"


message 16: by Emily (new)

Emily Dear Nools,

Thank you for being honest with us about your beliefs, however to tell us that it's not okay to believe what we want is kind of like a slap in the face!

Our country is amazing BECAUSE of all it's different religions and the freedom we have to be whatever faith we want. Christianity may be the right choice for you, but it doesn't mean that it's right for everyone!!

I don't think you sound "really stupid" for your belief. I think that it's great that you found something that makes you happy, but PLEASE don't assume it would make everyone happy.




message 17: by Tahleen (new)

Tahleen I'm technically an Armenian Apostolic Christian, and definitely a Christian, though I've been slacking in my beliefs and prayers and such. I want to be a better Christian, but I am having a tough time, mostly because my mother is so insistent that I believe what she (and the rest of my family) believes. I am not sure I am in the right denomination; I think I might be happier at another kind of church, especially because I feel uncomfortable around a lot of other Armenians (I don't speak the language and I don't really participate in Armenian activities). Maybe I just need to do more in my culture; maybe it's just not for me. I've felt like this for a while, but every time I try to mention it I end up fighting with one of my parents. Ugh. So complicated...


message 18: by Nuri (new)

Nuri (nools) | 145 comments Oh, MAN, Tahleen, I can totally relate!

I mean, I used to go to Korean church, and I always felt so out of place there... it was like, "This is supposed to be the family of God, a foretaste of heaven...? I can do without, thanks." I'm pretty whitewashed, so it was tough relating to a very distinctly Korean-American group. I even went agnostic for a while because I couldn't believe in something so forced and ... soulless? There just wasn't any heart in it, for me.

It broke my mother's heart, but I ended up churchless for most of high school, even after reconsidering and reconciling with my faith. At least once I got to college, I had the chance to look around, find a genuine community, and learn/grow from/with people I trust and respect.

Are they especially against you church-hopping?
Also: Not to be all creepy, but... are you from around Glendale by any chance? Because I am, and all the Armenians I know from Berkeley are either from there, have lived there at some point, or have family there.


message 19: by Tahleen (new)

Tahleen Nools, no I'm not from Glendale but I bet I know some people who are. I want to say my friend Alina is from Glendale but I'm not entirely sure. And no worries, it's not creepy!

I'd bet they would be against me church-hopping, but I'm just going to wait it out. Maybe I do belong there after all and I'm just not giving it enough of a chance. I'll wait and see, I have three more months before I am going home for good after college.


message 20: by Kimberly (new)

Kimberly (kimberlywithat) | 2140 comments Tahleen, do you have friends that belong to another religion? You could always go to church with them and see how it feels to you. Maybe it would be easier on your parents if you were going with a friend, and not just randomly choosing a church to go to?


message 21: by Tahleen (new)

Tahleen Most of my friends are Catholic, at least the ones who are actively religious are, and I've been to a service with one of them. It wasn't for me; at least, not in that congregation. It was a school mass though, so I might not have had a "genuine" Catholic experience. I do have a friend who goes to a Congregational church and that seemed pretty good when he was describing it, but he lives in CT haha.


message 22: by Paul (last edited Feb 04, 2009 08:30PM) (new)

Paul (themessenger) I am a Zen Buddhist. This decision came to me about 2 years ago when I was studying philosophy and we came across Pascal's Wager. As a point this wager describes that when you compare the gains and losses to believe or not to believe you see that rational requires you wager for god. Due to the rewards you should wager for god.

Although Pascal was talking about God, I am talking about god in a more agnostic sense. From here I postulated that the goal of the wager outside of the benefits was to direct a mode of positive behavior. So I found the religion that most closely associated with my own feelings of proper action and mentality. Zen Buddhism was my answer. See Zen itself does not outline a method of salvation and is not theism but it does describe a method of behavior. This is where I take the definition of God and modify it a little. Ultimately God already knows what I am going to do and is not terribly interested in that fact. God does not experience me God knows me. If my intention is correct then I am with God if I speak it or not. I am trying to run the odds of the wager in my favor with this. Let not worry so much about what we want from God and worry about what god wants from us. In many religions I have studied what god wants is all about the same. My message is let’s try our best everyday to be enlightened and do good works god will judge us on those actions. Pascal's Wager Read More (Section 4)

As a side discussion though I just want to take a moment to identify the difference between faith and religion. Faith is all that matters religion is an organization of faith. If you want something to go along with faith then work within a theism and follow my above rule implicitly.


message 23: by Silvia (new)

Silvia (silverware) | 436 comments I was raised Orthodox until I was 9. When I moved to Canada I attended Catholic gradeschool and high school. I dont really know what I fall under and I cant really distinguish between the two except that they have differing rituals. Really deep down I just believe in God. I believe in God and goodness and the power of prayer. It makes me happy!!!


message 24: by Bridgett (new)

Bridgett Pride (bridgettkathryn) I am Wiccan. I first learned about Wicca when I was in the 6th grade. All of my friends were talking about being Christian and Catholic and I didn't understand. I went home and told my mom that I wished god was a woman and she told me that some people think that "It" is. Ever since I have been a Goddess/Earth worshiping witch.

What I like most about Wicca is that it is peaceful and nature based. Our first credo is harm none. This covers everything from people, to animals, to plants and the earth. Wicca truly expresses that everyone is connected to one another and that by harming one, you are harming all.


message 25: by [deleted user] (last edited Feb 18, 2009 08:35AM) (new)

Hmmm....I shall try and be as diplomatic as I can....

The logical. rational part of me does not believe in God. There is an eensy part of my mind that still holds on to something though- and nope, its not faith that holds on, its something completely different. I do not like organised religion.

But thats just me. If other people are religious, fair enough. I have no problem,some of my family, and one of my closest friends has very strong faith in God. Just so long as they are not homophobic, sexist, or narrow- minded.

BTW, Bridgett, Wiccan sounds interesting! i agree- we are all connected, & if you harm nature you harm yourself and humanity also.


message 26: by [deleted user] (last edited Feb 20, 2009 08:45PM) (new)

I was raised Christian and I'm one to this day. I say its more of a relationship with God, than a religion. I am a poor example of being a follower of Christ because I sin on a day to day basis, and rarely give God time in my life. I do believe in Christ and the trinity(God the father, God the son, and God the Holy Spirit). I believe that he has died on the cross for the sins of Human Beings. I do ask for forgiveness from him for my wrong doings.

Even if people do not believe in the same as I do. I do not judge. Judging is really not my thing. =/ I have many friends that choose to be Wiccan, Atheist and such.... And if they want to, it is their life to live. I cannot force others to believe in my beliefs. What I will do though, is pray that each and every person is brought more smiles in their lives than tears. =D



message 27: by Tahleen (new)

Tahleen Krissy said: What I will do though, is pray that each and every person is brought more smiles in their lives than tears. =D

That is wonderful! I wish everyone would live their life with that belief. I will pray for that too :)


message 28: by Mandee (last edited Mar 13, 2009 07:16AM) (new)

Mandee (amandalinajanel) | 378 comments I love that, Krissy! I'm gonna pray for that, too, Tahleen!

I used to pray all the time, but lately I've realized it hasn't been happening so much. I don't belong to any religion, but I do feel that something greater than us, like God (but for others it could be a different name), exists. I don't think any one religion/denomination is right; in my mind they are really all related and just a different way of reaching the same place...but that's just what I feel.

I think I've always shied away from churches/organized religion because I've had too many experiences with judgmental and unaccepting people in those environments (more even than outside those environments). I doesn't make me feel good to be around that, so I've rarely felt the need or desire to attend church.

I do really believe in the 'power' of prayer and meditation, but it's probably not what religions consider prayer because for me it is just a regular kind of dialogue with God, not any set ritual or anything. I've never wondered if God was listening/I was talking to myself, like mentioned above, because I've always just FELT like God was there.

I don't know...I think this is a very personal thing, and everyone is going to be different, and that's okay...good even. :)


message 29: by Anna (new)

Anna Shumaker (annashu) Religion has always fascinated me, the way various religions started and sects splintered off...it is just interesting. I also understand the importance of religion and believing in a higher power, in my experience though I feel closer to that higher being sitting on the beach listening to waves crash than I ever have in a church.


message 30: by Suzanne (new)

Suzanne | 18 comments Do you mind me asking you what religion are you Anna?
-Suzanne


message 31: by Suzanne (last edited Feb 21, 2009 10:20PM) (new)

Suzanne | 18 comments Mykee
I dont believe that rules or standards limmit your beliefs at all. I think that the standards or 'rules' are in place to guide us and insure our happiness. we are free to choose, we have our free agency in this life, however, if we put our trust in God and in our church leaders and have faith in the standards then we are made free. the rules dont hold us down, they make us free. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and for any one who is confused about their life or beliefs, I highly recomend you read "the Book of Mormon" I am strengthend every time I read it and I know it is true. I love reading it, and I read it on a daily basis.




message 32: by Suzanne (last edited Feb 21, 2009 10:20PM) (new)

Suzanne | 18 comments Emily,
I would have to deffinantly disagree with you on that! I think it is truely wonderful that we have a free country to believe in what we choose, however I think everyone needs Christ in their lives, because with out him.. what would we do with out him??




message 33: by Kimberly (new)

Kimberly (kimberlywithat) | 2140 comments Suzanne! Another Mormon Girl! :D I'll second what you said. It's true.

Mandee, I completely agree with what you say about prayer, it doesn't have to be set words. We can talk to him as if he was sitting next to us, because he is right there near us, listening. :) Pretty cool, huh?


message 34: by Suzanne (new)

Suzanne | 18 comments kimberly-
are you at college right now? if so what college are you going to?


message 35: by Kimberly (last edited Feb 22, 2009 04:27PM) (new)

Kimberly (kimberlywithat) | 2140 comments Yes, I'm at Weber State. :) I saw on your profile that you just got excepted to BYU-I, congrats! I have several friends there.


message 36: by Suzanne (new)

Suzanne | 18 comments Thanks, I am still dont know where I am going to go yet. I am between BYU-I or LDSBC.. we shall see I guess..


message 37: by Mandee (new)

Mandee (amandalinajanel) | 378 comments I agree Anna.
Suzanne, I respectfully disagree; I think it's great that is your path, but I don't think that what's right for you, is right for everyone else. It can get a little tricky when we start telling other people what they do and don't need in their lives, but that's just my opinion. We're not all going to agree, especially when it comes to a topic like this...

Again...just my opinion. I don't want to offend/hurt/insult anyone.


message 38: by Anna (new)

Anna Shumaker (annashu) Suzanne:I was raised Catholic so if pressed I identify with Catholicism more than anything else.


message 39: by Suzanne (last edited Feb 23, 2009 06:10AM) (new)

Suzanne | 18 comments But dont you think that there should be a plan for everyone to follow so that we can all return to our Heavenly Father and that there should be one thing that is right for everyone? Doesnt God love everyone the same and unconditionally and want us all to believe the same thing? Its not that they are telling us what to do, or what to believe. they are telling us what the will and commandments of God are and we can make our own choices.(I do not want/mean to offend/hurt/or insult anyone either! just my oppinion)


message 40: by Suzanne (last edited Feb 23, 2009 07:00AM) (new)

Suzanne | 18 comments Bridgett:
Wiccan? that is very interesting. what do you actually do as a wiccan/witch? do you mostly do things in nature/nature related things? I have heard of wiccans, but I have never known one, or known what they do.
Suzanne





message 41: by [deleted user] (new)

Em.........as an aside, can I just say that its great that everyone here is so tolerant of other believers/non believers!


message 42: by Tahleen (new)

Tahleen Roisu, I try to be as accepting as possible. I hate it when other people will dismiss other religious beliefs because they don't fit their own, that's what gives some religions a bad image... I happen to be Christian, but I think other religions are beautiful and really enjoy learning about them.


message 43: by Kimberly (last edited Feb 23, 2009 01:24PM) (new)

Kimberly (kimberlywithat) | 2140 comments I love the diversity we have in this group! It's so interesting to learn about other religions. I love that we can all be so accepting of each other too, we can state our opinions and beliefs without being afraid of being ridiculed.


message 44: by Suzanne (new)

Suzanne | 18 comments I am very strong in what I believe, however I aggre with ya Kimberly, that I love to learn about other religions. I like seeing what others believe too. Its always interesting and diverse.


message 45: by Erin (new)

Erin Jumping head long into this because I saw Suzanne's comment. Wiccanism is not a set religion, so its not easily defined like Judaism, Catholicism, or many of your basic religions that most people can identify with. Sadly this also is what makes it such a latching on point to people who many times need help in some way. You can change the rules easier then Christians can because there are no real rules. This leads to even more horrible cases of people using their religion to their own means.

I have met some very wonderful wiccans and for a long time considered myself one. Now, I prefer the statement I don't need a religion. I have however, also met a lot of what I deem witches. They are only in the religion to cast spells. They do not honnor the moon, sun, earth, or anything else that is more generaly for wiccans. They many times just use the Christian definition of a witch as their religion, thus why I call them witches. You should really do some research on wiccanism because you can find out where it came from and if you look at enough places you can get your own grasp. I recommend talking to wiccan before purchasing any books, however because you are likely to run into that same out witch cult thing where all they want is to sell you some crystals and 'fairy dust.' Its a hard relgion to follow also because of that.

I'm going to go back and read all this as soon as I have a moment because like Kimberly and Suzanne I love to learn about it all. I'm a studier of beliefes and religions, not a follower.


message 46: by Erin (new)

Erin Any kind of belief of mine is pretty much nulled because sometime in my tweens I started thinking about religion and realized cultures use it as a set of guide lines. Also, I've always had a hard time respecting a god. I admit that there might be one, but I can't respect them as the one and only that created the universe. I was never baptised because my mom wanted her employer to become my god mother. (The woman later sent her god daughter to Brown's University in the US.) I've gone with plenty of friends to their churches but I can't open myself too it. I can't allow a god in who is suppose to protect me. From a very early age I knew I was on my own. Now I have problems clutching to my bfs because I just want someone to be there for me. Everyone else might say they will but I won't allow them.

The reason I think I could go with being a wiccan is because its not based on being fair. Its based on there are good things and bad things in the world and stuff happens. The natural order of things. So in a way you could say I'm a wiccan, but I don't really practice. I do cherish some things, but in our society today its hard on me because there are so few places that I can feel comfortable with cherishing earth. Places where people have settled semi-recently bother me. Old cities or areas don't though. Neighborhoods bother me most of the time because they generally are updated. You could almost think of it as if the earth has had time to regrow from our hurting it. Where I go to school is hard on me except in the main 'down-town' because that part is really old and so is some parts of the university itself. They feel more natural and grown back. Time has brought it back.

Anyone hear of Gaia?


message 47: by Tahleen (new)

Tahleen Gaia the earth goddess or Gaia the hypothesis that the earth is an organism? Yes to both. :)

And I'm not sure I agree with you about all the other religions being "fair," or based on fairness. I know I don't believe that life is fair, and I don't see my religion as telling me it is. So I'm not sure if I see what you're saying here...


message 48: by Erin (new)

Erin Well I always kinda thought of the two theories as one.

Well fair might not be the right word. I should say theres two large concepts usually. One being you are loved by god and so everything is all right (what I misspoke as fair) and you serve god (generally more negative, Catholics a lot of times). With the Wiccanism it doesn't matter if its fair or if it will be all right. I mean you don't go hurt another for no good reason. You also don't necessarily have to serve anyone. You can align, but you don't have to. Its easier to be more logical and not caring in it. I said you don't hurt anything for no good reason on the basis that I do believe in eating meat. I'm very basic in my beliefs in a way. Don't hurt anything if you don't have to, but respect the food you eat and why you do. Lying can be ok sometimes, but most times I prefer not even to fib. And things like that. I find my guidance in common sense and keeping my spirits up with the fact that my animals will all ways accept me no matter what I do. A pretty basic way to put my 'rules' or guide lines into one is to say I always try to better myself.


message 49: by Tahleen (new)

Tahleen Okay, I see what you meant, but I'm confused about what you mean about how wiccans don't go hurt another for no good reason--does this mean you think Christians do? I'm just confused as to what you mean.


message 50: by Erin (new)

Erin No I was expanding on someone else's ideas because she said Wiccans don't hurt anything. Well, wiccans a lot of times believe in the natural order of the world which includes eating animals. Christianity does not have that pressure on not harming something and if you have to respecting it for what it is. They have pressure on the human side of things, but in general there is no reference to treating your environment correctly. Wiccans have a strong belief in preserving everything around them. That is why I brought up Gaia. It is often very similar to that idea. Keep in mind none of this is set and its all just what I've experienced. So its not that Christians go out and purposefully torture anything its that Wiccans have more set respect for their surroundings.


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