Richard III discussion

Richard and Elizabeth? Love and Marriage or gossip and rumor?

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message 1: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
Well, we need to get away from the King's Daughter and get going on another topic so I thought I'd do some pot stirring.........

Did Richard really want to marry Elizabeth?

Did Elizabeth love and want to marry Richard?

Would Ann have encouraged this?

Is this all some pipe dream of a few silly authors?

message 2: by Susan (new)

Susan (boswellbaxter) | 418 comments Supposedly, George Buck saw a letter from Elizabeth, which has since disappeared, stating that she wanted the Duke of Norfolk to help her in the matter of her marriage, that Richard was "her only joy and maker in this world" (or something like that), and that she thought the queen would never die. Since the original was lost, we only have his word for it, and his paraphrase of the original. There's also chronicle evidence that Richard III publicly denied any intention of marrying Elizabeth, and there's a book that Elizabeth signed with her name and the same motto Richard used.

There's also evidence, however, that very shortly after Anne died, Richard began negotiating for marriages between him and Joanna of Portugal and between Elizabeth and Manuel, Duke of Beja. There's been some speculation that Elizabeth's letter might have referred to these negotiations.

Personally, I think the rumors of the marriage were there, but I doubt Richard planned to marry Elizabeth, not when he could make a useful alliance abroad.

message 3: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments I agree with Susan and have just read in Potter much of the information she presents. The Buck letter is all too conveniently mentioned and even more conveniently lost to us. (Elizabeth Peters' mystery novel The Murders of Richard III hinges around this letter.)

My main reason for thinking this to be a tarradiddle is that had Richard married Elizabeth, his niece, it would have complicated the matter of the illegitimacy of Edward IV's children. Had Elizabeth been legitimized, it would have confirmed that the two boys were dead (plus she would have had a better claim to the throne than did Richard). I cannot see so sensible a man as Richard opening up such a squirming can of worms. If she was so infatuated with him and he returned the sentiment, he could easily have married her to a complaisant gentleman and quietly have made her his mistress.

No, Richard had to marry for dynastic reasons. He did not need to outrage the common people by so questionable an alliance.

message 4: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
Just so you two know, I was seriously tempted to start a poll to see which of the two of you was having more fun here -- but I'll defer it for now :)

message 5: by Susan (new)

Susan (boswellbaxter) | 418 comments Misfit wrote: "Just so you two know, I was seriously tempted to start a poll to see which of the two of you was having more fun here -- but I'll defer it for now :)"

Oh, I looove rattling on about the Wars of the Roses. It's one of the things I'm going to bore my attendants with when I get senile. That and sitting watching the trains go by and making "choo choo" noises.

Seriously, though, I also agree that an uncle-niece marriage, even if it was dispensable, would have probably been too much of an "ugh" factor for the average Englishman to swallow.

message 6: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments Misfit, we already know that I had to be given permission to natter on incessantly. The Wars of the Roses is one of those wonderfully complex mazes which so enliven the dull paths of history. I keep a pocket of breadcrumbs handy for when I encounter a new one.

This group is a grand place to hang out with the diversity and enthusiasm of the membership. So grateful you started it.

message 7: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
Don't worry Ikon, I'm glad to be here as well and love seeing you (and now Susan) natter on, this is fascinating stuff.

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