A Dance with Dragons (A Song of Ice and Fire, #5) A Dance with Dragons discussion


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SPOILERS *Jon Snow's Fate*

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Kenneth Geary So if you've read the book it appears that Jon Snow has died. When i read this i flipped out i mean this guy has been my favorite charcter thoughout the whole series. So i've decided that he is NOT dead and this is why.

First. I am with the school of thought that Jon is not Ned's Bastard but instead the son of Prince Rhaegar Targayen and Ned's sister Lyanna Stark. Therefore a Taragayen and a Stark way to badass of a blood-line kill off.

Some things that support this are Rhaegar clearly had intent to be with Lyanna,
When Sansa claims Arya is a bastard because she looks like Jon Snow Cat tells Sansa that she looks like Lyanna (Arya and Jon are described as looking alike).
At the end of Robert's rebellion there is a battle that reasons are not disclosed (protecting the Taragayen Heir???) that ended with Ned and Howland Reed being the only surivors watching Lyanna die and Ned made an secret promise to her. (Hide Jon??)

Second. I understand that he was stab 4 times and didn't feel anything but cold on the last one. However people have been stabbed 20 times and survived before, it never states that he was stabbed in the vital organ, before the giant distracts everyone smashing around with that "club".

(As a commenter on the EW web site pointed out, Jon's wound is described as "SMOKING" in the cold air - note: not "steaming," which would seem to be a very deliberate word choice - and Bowen Marsh's tears are SALTY.

So what do we know about SALT and SMOKE? ) (not from me but a good point)

Third. Melisandre. When she tries to search the flames for signs of Stannis being Azor Ahai, she only sees Jon Snow. Plus we have seen other other servents of the red god resurecct people, it it has not been confirmed or denied that she has this ability.

Fourth. Other times when we have had the charcter whoes POV we are currently reading from "dies" (BRAN, CAT or THEON), they aren't really dead. Now if the POV charcter sees someone else die (when Cat saw Robb) that person has stayed dead. So Jon"died" from his own POV i think means he's not dead.


I think Jon will become the rider of Viserion who is also all white with red eyes.


JulieLaLa I'm with you all the way! I had the same thought re: his parentage. I'm going to wait until the next book (when? when? hurry!) to see what George R.R. Martin has done with Jon.


Thomas Acland From my experience of the books unless it is 100% conclusive that the person is dead then chances are they are not dead at all, you only have to look at the number of characters that have apparently been killed off only to resurface later on.

I hadn't thought of this parentage and had always assumed that he was simply Ned Starks bastard but then again Ned was always very secretive when asked about Jon's mother so maybe there is something in it.

Thirdly to give another theory out there, Jon is dead or at least Jon's body is dead but he has changed shape and will continue to exist through the body of his dire wolf. One of the northern men had to ability to shape shift and it certainly seemed that Jon also had some of these capabilities so I wouldn't be at all surprised if he wasn't present in the other books in wolf form. Also since Nymeria is also still out there maybe at some point Jon and Arya's dire wolfs will have some part to play.

So many theories on what will happen and no doubt GRRM will prove me completely wrong again, there have been so many twists already I just want to see what he is going to do next.


Tere Gonzalez I'm so glad to read your theories, in fact when I finished reading this book I became really sad, Jon had became like you mentioned before one of my favorite characters, so maybe after reading your comments I will give the next book a chance and continue reading this story!


message 5: by Eyehavenofilter (last edited Jul 03, 2012 06:05PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Eyehavenofilter I won't believe Jon is dead untill they bury him or return his bones to Winterfell. Just as I won't believe that Brienne is dead untill they bury her or return her bones to her father..... I'm stubborn like that!


Mindy They could make Jon like Caitlyn...(though I'd rather not have this I'd rather him just to be NOT dead)


Kenneth Geary Mindy wrote: "They could make Jon like Caitlyn...(though I'd rather not have this I'd rather him just to be NOT dead)"

Well he wouldn't necessarly end up like Cat. She had already been floating in the river for a while when Dondarrion brought her back. and as with Thoros's resurrections of Beric Dondarrion was revived with the wounds that killed them.

However when Victarion Greyjoy's mortal sword wound is healed by Moqorro it becomes black and smokey but otherwise normal.

So because we have never seen Melisandre heal anyone we can't be sure what the affects will be, He could be absolutely fine (hopefully) or end up a mindless zombie(hope not)


message 8: by Kirby (new) - added it

Kirby Ada-Lee wrote: "I won't believe Jon is dead untill they bury him or return his bones to Winterfell. Just as I won't believe that Brienne is dead untill they bury her or return her bones to her father..... I'm stub..."

ummm...didn't brienne already show back up? she met with jaime toward the end, right?


Mindy Kenneth wrote: However when Victarion Greyjoy's mortal sword wound is healed by Moqorro it becomes black and smokey but otherwise normal.

So because we have never seen Melisandre heal anyone we can't be sure what the affects will be, He could be absolutely fine (hopefully) or end up a mindless zombie(hope not)


I feel a little more hopeful now, thanks. I don't think Martin will make Jon a zombie, but he may make the character seriously diminished (Ugh) or dead (Ugh more). Though honestly now that I think about it I don't think he'll kill him yet because the dragon is supposed to have three heads right?


Chanouel I just finished A Dance With Dragons an hour ago. Now the waiting starts..... :(

Since the very first book, I have always suspected that Jon would play an important role in this story. I just always assumed that he would be there until the end, even though I learned early on that with Mr. Martin, one should never assume.

So for that reason, I refuse to think that Jon is dead. Some of you have brought up some interesting theories.

As Kenneth mentioned, the choice of words, that the wound is "smoking", is strange to say the least.

So, I know he's not dead, but I'm darn curious as to how he'll get out of it.


message 11: by Dale (new) - rated it 3 stars

Dale Pearl Very interesting. Reading Mr. Martin has been an ongoing frustration for me. He seems to kill off the most likable characters and attempts to redeem or attempt to make heroes out of the most surprising and undeserving.
If Jon Snow is dead I really doubt that I would continue reading the series for myself. My reasons are that I find Catelyn, Sansa, and Danerys and very boring and an uninterested read. So if they are the only heroes left to cheer for then there is no reason for me to read the series anymore. Bran is an awesome character as well, however, he'll never be a Jon Snow. I was hoping that Bran would mind control a dragon and fry Danerys... that would get me back into the books!


Chanouel Dale wrote: "I was hoping that Bran would mind control a dragon and fry Danerys... that would get me back into the books!
"


LOL!!! I don't like Daenerys but I wouldn't go that far...lol.

In my opinion, you'll continue reading the series Dale. I don't think Jon is going to die.


message 13: by Will (new) - rated it 4 stars

Will IV I would keep reading for Arya's story alone, honestly. Dany's has gotten annoying, but I have a feeling it will pick up again (her chapters were my favorite up until this book).


message 14: by Dale (new) - rated it 3 stars

Dale Pearl Gosh I hope so. Mr. Martin has this tendency to destroy the morally sound characters and at the same time redeem the unredeemed and make you like it.
Catelyn and Sansa are simply boring. Danerys isn't boring, however, she is the typical predictable Dragon rider/wielder that will rule the realms with the all mighty dragon between her thighs. That particular story I have read many many times before and I no longer am amused so much by fantasy stories in which dragons are the friends of people.


Chanouel Arya, Tyrion and Jon are my favorites, but except for Jon, I don't like where the other storylines are going. But I'll keep reading just to find out and because I've already gone this far.

For some reason, since the 2nd book, I've had this childish fantasy that the Stark kids would be reunited, along with their wolves and live happily ever after. Well, that fantasy's been shot to hell LOL!


message 16: by Bard (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bard Constantine Really great theory on Jon's fate. I was shocked at his stabbing, but was left with the hope that since his death wasn't actually confirmed then he might actually survive. I didn't factor his heritage in at all, and now you've given me food for thought..


message 17: by Dale (new) - rated it 3 stars

Dale Pearl Chanouel wrote: "Arya, Tyrion and Jon are my favorites, but except for Jon, I don't like where the other storylines are going. But I'll keep reading just to find out and because I've already gone this far.

For so..."



Same as I. I was so shocked by Robb but then again Mr. Martin never had chapters named after Robb so you sort of knew that he was never going to be King for long. That sort of gives things away somewhat... The same with Stannis, it is obvious that he is not the true Lord of Light. I was thinking it was Jon Snow.


Chanouel Dale wrote: "The same with Stannis, it is obvious that he is not the true Lord of Light. I was thinking it was Jon Snow.
.."


I thought the same thing since Melisandre keeps seeing him in her fires when she's trying to look for Stannis. And again, that choice of words by Mr. Marting comes back....the wound was "smoking".

The only thing that doesn't match with that theory is that Jon had been wounded before, the arrow in his thigh and the eagle that scratched his face. Why didn't the wounds smoke then? What would have changed? The proximity of Melisandre?


message 19: by Dale (new) - rated it 3 stars

Dale Pearl Ahhh maybe that is it, or maybe somehow being at the wall and the magical properties of the wall somehow protect the Lord Commander from betrayal by those that wear the black?


Cliff Some interesting theories on Jon. I tend to believe that he's still alive. We've been surprised more than once with people rising from the 'Dead'. But then again, we saw Neds head bopping down the sidewalk.

I've thought since the first book, Jon was going to be someone special in the series and still do.

If he doesn't make it, I'll keep reading just to follow Arya and needle. What a trooper.


message 21: by Dale (new) - rated it 3 stars

Dale Pearl I won't be the first one to run out and buy the next book. I will probably wait for a review to be posted and take a glimpse out of that to see. I don't think I could read through 1000 plus pages of Catelyn, Sansa, Lord of Light, Cersi, etc... just to get to 20 pages of Arya.


Michael It has been awhile since I read this book, but when I read it I thought she could make someone look like someone else. For example, She could make some unimportant character or at least a no longer needed character look like Jon Snow.

But the way I saw the ending was Jon Snow being let free. I'm not sure how he lives, I love the theories already and I agree with most. I think because Jon Snow is the most honorable character in the book this was the only way to leave the Night's Watch. The only way to leave the Night's Watch is by "Death." So I think if Melisandre brings him back to life there is his loophole to get out and join the fight.

You know nothing Jon Snow!


Kenneth Geary Dale wrote: "Ahhh maybe that is it, or maybe somehow being at the wall and the magical properties of the wall somehow protect the Lord Commander from betrayal by those that wear the black?"

Well that's good except the Old Bear was killed by men of the watch


message 24: by Brooke (last edited Jul 14, 2012 03:34PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Brooke Banks Yeah, I'm with you on this. So many great theories here on Jon! So many other people come back from appearing to have died in their experience but then it turns out they lived.

I don't accept Jon as dead. He's one of my favorites.

Reading these thoughts and theories on Jon made me feel a lot better about his fate. Thank you.

I can't wait for the next book.


message 25: by Dale (new) - rated it 3 stars

Dale Pearl Here is my theory. Jon's sword is the true lightbringer and it healed him instantly or something like that. The sword that Stannis has/had was a cheap imitation. Maybe being near the priest woman somehow activated it.


message 26: by Derek (last edited Jul 18, 2012 11:43AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Derek I agree with this theory Kenneth. Thanks for starting this thread. I too was deeply shocked by Jon's supposed death, but I think you've got it with the POV point. When he was interviewed on Sword and Laser, George RR Martin talked about how he is telling this sequence of events through the use of his 'viewpoint' characters. i.e. Things are only directly related in terms of these characters, and when one of them isn't in a room, we only find out later what was supposed to have happened, if we hear at all. So he's telling the story through the use of these viewpoint characters (Jon, Arya, Bran, etc). If he kills off his Wall viewpoint character, how are we to know what's happening up there?

Total aside, but I too have thought since the get-go that Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar.


message 27: by Sam (new)

Sam But even if Jon is Rhaegar's son, he can't be the blood of the dragon! He burns his hand early on saving lord commander mormont!


message 28: by Kim (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kim Sam wrote: "But even if Jon is Rhaegar's son, he can't be the blood of the dragon! He burns his hand early on saving lord commander mormont!"

Yes, but so did Dany's brother when he burned to death with his golden crown...


message 29: by Maxi (new) - rated it 5 stars

Maxi Bolongaita At this point in the book series, I'm all like Valar Morghulis. But I would love to think Jon Snow is alive, he's had a bad time since the start of the book and it would be nice if he got a break by way of becoming a dragon.


Kevin I have a feeling by the end of all the books, Jon and/or Dany will rule the seven realms...


Yannis When I first read a spoiler "Jon rpobably dies" I thought it's ve something like "missing in action".
Now,my impression was that the wounds were fatal but since Martin leaves it hanging I'm 90% Jon will be back:
1.He obviously fainted or something.Sure there were a few major wounds but a young strong guy doesn't die like that in a second.
2.People would help.The giant's reaction for example.Mellisandre may have been expecting that and ran to help.
Even if he died
3.Mellisandre may be able to bring him back.
4.His spirit may have moved to something/someone else.
5.His "death" sets him free (if he gets to live again)from his vows,which helps the plot a lot.


Sagar "There are three heads to the dragon" meaning daenerys
,Aegon VI, and the third could be Jon .

"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

Jon could be the promised prince if he is truly born to Rhaeger

1)The cold and darkness seem to be increasing in general (Others appearing etc)
2)A Warrior sword I assume that it is Jon's Valariyan steel sword .The burning part might happen cos magical things seem to happen items related to dragons.Valariyan steel might become light bringer
3)It also speaks about born amongst salt and smoke Which would mean that Jon either would realise he is Azhor Ahai or He dies and is reborn through Melisandre's sorcery
4)The prophecy claims a Prince and not a princess .So Daenerys or Aegon may not be the chosen one.

Also according to the prophecy he fits into every detail without ambiguous statement like where maester Aemon says that dragons are neither male or female


message 33: by Seed (new) - rated it 4 stars

Seed Kevin wrote: "I have a feeling by the end of all the books, Jon and/or Dany will rule the seven realms..."

By the end of it, there won't be a seven realms to rule.


message 34: by [deleted user] (new)

I agree that there might not be seven realms to rule. Assuming that Ramsay wasn't being honest about Stannis, chances are that he and his are still wandering about in the North, so there is a contest there.
Aegon is the Targaryen with the strongest claim to the Iron throne, but an army from Highgarden/the Westerlands might be on the way, potentially leaving him and the Golden Company trapped in the Stormlands.
As for the Reach, the Highgarden/Lannister alliance is tenuous at best, and as Kevin was murdered by Varys that's going to open a whole new can of worms.
The Ironborn are reaving and raiding up and down the coast of the Arbor, which might be put down by the King's fleet, or might not.
At the Wall, Jon may or may not be dead, I don't think he is, though I'm not totally convinced about his parentage(Ned vs. Rhaegar), but I feel that he has a bigger part to play, I'm really sort of hoping deep down that he ends up atop the Iron Throne, or at least the North.

As for Daenarys, assuming Khal Jhaqo doesn't get a chance to kill her thanks to Drogon, she's going to have at least three other contenders if she plans to seat herself before Aegon. The Winds of Winter will be more than interesting.


message 35: by Julianna (last edited Aug 12, 2012 09:46PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Julianna The Jon-son-of-Lyanna theory would work except they specifically say that Ned fathered a bastard on the Sisters when leaving the Vale to call his banners to join Robert's rebellion. The woman named the bastard Jon after Jon Arryn. What's the likelyhood that there are two Jon Snow's fathered by Ned running around? Plus, it makes sense that he and Arya look alike if both their father's is Ned.

But the Lyanna theory makes sense too with the whole dragons thing.

UGH.


message 36: by Kirby (new) - added it

Kirby Julianna wrote: "The Jon-son-of-Lyanna theory would work except they specifically say that Ned fathered a bastard on the Sisters when leaving the Vale to call his banners to join Robert's rebellion. The woman named..."

well, I think that the only thing we were explicitly told was that Ned said that he fathered a bastard- he never actually "confessed" to the reader.

also, they said that Arya looked like Lyanna, and that Jon looked like Arya...so, it could stand to reason that Jon looked like Lyanna because she was his mother...although, it could also be because she was his aunt.

and, I agree- ugh, indeed! I am so tired of speculating...I just wanna know!! :(


message 37: by Jax (new) - rated it 5 stars

Jax am I the only one that hopes that Jon is actually dead?

that would be so rad and totally unexpected.


message 38: by Mick (new) - rated it 4 stars

Mick Martin kills off his main characters Eddard -The red wedding group- jon snow(never liked him - stabbed 4 times- I admire their restraint)- Brienne I believe is alive unfortunately. It will be interesting to see where it goes from here.....mick


Justin Wilkerson I hadn't noticed the small hints about Jon being Lyanna's, but now that I think about it, that makes sense in a lot of ways. But I've learned not to place bets on anyone's future with this series. The only thing I would go so far to say is that I don't think Jon is dead, or will stay dead for long. While I hope he avoids Cat's fate (a disturbing image everytime I think about it), I hope he does remain in the story.


Danielle I don't think he is dead, just badly wounded, and I think he will be unconscious long enough, with his spirit in Ghost, to go kill a Bolton or two, something he can't do as Jon Snow.
I never saw Eddard or Robb Stark as main characters, more like story vehicles.


message 41: by Jessica (new)

Jessica I'm also thinking that Jon might be Lyannas son. Because Ned remembered her dying in a bed of blood which could mean childbirth...


Daniel Kenneth wrote: "Fourth. Other times when we have had the charcter whoes POV we are currently reading from "dies" (BRAN, CAT or THEON), they aren't really dead. Now if the POV charcter sees someone else die (when Cat saw Robb) that person has stayed dead. So Jon"died" from his own POV i think means he's not dead. "

You are right in your 4th point except that you forget one major character...Eddard Stark. He was the dominant POV in A Game of Thrones and died for good.


message 43: by James (new)

James Macalroy I am writing this from a handheld device so bear with me. The lyanna theory makes since, but that would mean eddy boy did not fully trust the cat. This is not me being a nay sayer, just pointing out that he knew she was just another tully beeotch that would have sold jon out if anyone even hinted they would harm any of her kids. She always put her own before the good of the ones around her. Now that she is essentially a sentient zombie all she wants is the blood of anyone even remotely connected to people she hates.

Enough about the effing tullys, here is my jon snow theory:

1. He has some dragon in him (if not rhaegar's then maybe the fisherman's daughter that ned knocked up was part tar-gar)

2. dany will hear all about jon from her new maester, which could lead to them meeting up. Jon may not need a horn for his dragon as he is a warg who just needs practice.

3. He was paralyzed on the third stab which is why he didn't feel the fourth. Don't worry. The red priestess can heal or find a priest who can. If not, see warg comment.

Theories are like aholes however, and i have 3.


message 44: by Kirby (new) - added it

Kirby James wrote: "I am writing this from a handheld device so bear with me. The lyanna theory makes since, but that would mean eddy boy did not fully trust the cat. This is not me being a nay sayer, just pointing ou..."

well, I thought of ned's refusal to confide in catelyn as more of an honor issue than a trust issue. I see it as similar to when sam (in book 3) withheld the truth about bran and rickon from jon. it wasn't that he couldn't TRUST jon w/ the information, it was that he'd sworn not to tell ANYONE...


message 45: by James (new)

James Macalroy Yes. But as some of you may know, there is a huge difference between a secret from a friend or one between a spouse. In a trusting marriage you share it all and know they can keep your secret. Potatoes/Tomtatoes. Friendship/Marriage. Of course applying modern relationship standards to an ancient fictional society is fruitless. I will stand by my 3 aholes however.


Heather Parks I started suspecting that Jon was the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar a couple of books ago. This was as good as confirmed in my mind by Ser Barristan's memories of Ashara Dayne committing suicide after giving birth to a stillborn bastard after running into the arms of a Stark. Since the rumors would have been out about a Stark (Ned or possibly his brother which seems more likely) fathering a child with Lady Dayne, the timing would have been perfect for him to claim Lyanna's child as his own to protect Jon Snow. And since Lyanna had been in captivity, her pregnancy would not have been publicly known.

To me, Selmy's story ties up a lot of loose ends as to the identity of Jon Snow's parents, but if you blink you would miss it.

Also, I don't think Jon's dead, and the POV theory seems logical. Even for the characters that had frequent POV chapters, when it came time for them to die, it was seen from another character's perspective. Any time a chapter is describing a character's death from their own point of view, they seem to live on.


Kenneth Geary Daniel wrote: "Kenneth wrote: "Fourth. Other times when we have had the charcter whoes POV we are currently reading from "dies" (BRAN, CAT or THEON), they aren't really dead. Now if the POV charcter sees someone ..."


It's been a while since I read the 1st book but i'm pretty sure it was actually Sansa's POV when ICE actually came down on his neck.

If it wasn't maybe all these people with the theory that it wasn't actually Ned who got beheaded are right. i don't really agree with that theory but here is the reasons listed on another site.

"
It is inconclusive. There are many clues in the book that seem to suggest Eddard is indeed alive and that it was someone else, perhaps a faceless man who was executed instead of Lord Stark.

#1. Sansa, upon seeing the head of "ned", remarks that it looks nothing like her father.
#2. Catelyn, upong being given "Eddard's" bones, says that they are not the bones of her husband.

As far as the actual execution, "Ned" was placed on a podium far, far above the crowd and away from Cersei and Joffrey There are many clues that say that Ned is still alive. I personally believe he will show up in one of the upcoming books that havent been released yet.

There is also the point that he could becoming a white walker, or be resurrected entirely through magic, as was done with Catelyn/Lady Stoneheart
"


message 48: by James (new)

James Macalroy Nope


Kenneth Geary agreed just throwing it out there


Heather Parks I believe it was either Sansa or Arya's POV that described Eddard's beheading.

But ya, Ned is dead. Really most sincerely dead.


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