Richard III discussion

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message 1: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments I am curious to know how many of us were led to this topic by reading Tey's The Daughter of Time . i confess I was not one who found her path here through that book. It was the Laurence Olivier film of "Richard III" which did it for me. I simply did not believe in Shakespeare's villain and, having seen pictures of Henry VII, I did not believe in that Aryan g-d the film showed at the end as the victor at Bosworth. So, being contrary by nature, I opted to cast my vote for Richard and have never changed my mind.

However, Tey is widely considered the mother of the modern Ricardian movement and many have told of being convinced by her novel that Richard was the victim not the villain. Are any here among that group? And what do most of us think about the novel in general?


message 2: by Barb (new)

Barb | 145 comments I haven't read Tey's book yet, every time I looked at it I dismissed it, I only decided to read it after reading your comment that she was the mother of the Ricardian movement with that book. (It's on it's way to me right now.)






message 3: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments She manages to bring out most of the evidence exonerating Richard through the medium of dialogue between two men who had never even considered the topic before. It is a fast and pleasant read. I hope you will enjoy it as much as I have.


message 4: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
I had never heard of this book until it was mentioned here and plan to get it from the library as soon as the pile eases up.


message 5: by Pat (new)

Pat | 39 comments I read the book some time back and I remember enjoying it, but at the time I really didn't care too much about Richard. Now, because of our little group here; which I hope keeps growing, I have developed a big interest in that time period. I'm going to dig out my book( I kept it thank goodness ) and will go through it again.

Ikon, I noticed you have a quote from George McDonald Fraser, are you a "Flashman" fan too? I just love his books, there's nothing quite like them.


message 6: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments I love Flashman, particularly the one (can't recall the title) where he goes to Madagascar and is pressed into service 'rogering' the Queen. I read that one aloud to my companion and he and I laughed ourselves almost sick at it.


message 7: by Pat (new)

Pat | 39 comments Oh yes, I agree. I have never read books where my heart is pounding with anticipation on one page and then I am laughing hysterically on the next. I guess Flashman isn't for everyone, but I really like his character, even with all his flaws.


message 8: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments His flaws are what I love. He is believably human in a world of fiction filled with supermen. BTW: l lifted that quote from another member of the group. Heh!


message 9: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
Haven't read Flashman yet, but Dunnett's Francis Crawford Lymond is one beautifully flawed hero as well.


message 10: by Barb (new)

Barb | 145 comments Misfit,
I have tried three times to read the first in the Lymond series and sadly I just couldn't do it, it was SO hard, I just couldn't figure out what the hell was being said! :0(


message 11: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments The Dunnett Lymond series is a new one to me. I shall have to give it a look.


message 12: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
Barb, its a love or hate thing with those books. They are not easy to get in to, but it's worth the effort if you can. Oh my, the steeple chase race through Paris, the real life chess game to the death at the Sultan's Palace......




message 13: by Jamie (new)

Jamie Collins (jamie_goodreads) | 5 comments I believe I read The Sunne in Splendour first, and that caused me to look up the controversy over the princes. Then I went looking for the Tey book.


message 14: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments LOL It looks like for the newest generation of Ricardians, we must name Penman as the Mother of the Movement. She has led more people to this controversy than any current writer I know.


message 15: by Laura (new)

Laura After finishing Sunne in Splendor, I started The Daughter of Time and We Speak no Treason since I wanted to have other version on the lost princes. Josephine provided another complete version of facts nor commonly found in similar books on this subject.


message 16: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments You might enjoy reading some non-fiction on the period. There is an enormous body of books about the Princes and the last of the Plantagenets available.

For a different take in fiction, you might try to find "A Trail of Blood" by Jeremy Potter.


message 17: by Laura (new)

Laura Thanks!!


message 18: by Jenn (new)

Jenn (jenn_reed) | 42 comments I thankfully blame it all on Penman. :)


message 19: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
Jenn wrote: "I thankfully blame it all on Penman. :)"

We should write her and tell her how grateful (ungrateful??) we are...


message 20: by Stephanie (new)

Stephanie | 11 comments Hi, I'm new and became fascinated with Richard after reading a rose for the crown. I then discovered the sunne in splendour and am permanantly hooked! I just finished the daughter of time. Any book recommendations on the plantagenets would be much appreciated!


message 21: by Misfit (last edited Mar 11, 2009 12:39PM) (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
Hi Stephanie welcome aboard. I've yet to read Daughter of Time but intend to sometime in the future. Here's a list that might give you some reading ideas,

http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/15...


Susanna - Censored by GoodReads (susannag) I recall reading The Daughter of Time as a teenager, and liking the novel - but not being convinced that Richard couldn't have done it.


message 23: by Lauren (new)

Lauren | 5 comments I haven't read Daughter of Time yet either. It's on my very very very long to be read list. My first Richard III related book was actually a fluffy Edward IV romance series by Poesie Graeme Evans and she presented Richard as a great guy, nothing like Shakespeare. It didn't fit with my preconceptions, so I picked up the Rose of York trilogy. Then I read Sunne in Splendour. I think my path here was rather unconventional!


message 24: by MAP (new)

MAP | 181 comments Has anyone done any research to see if the evidence in Daughter of Time is true? I just assume it is, but there are things mentioned in there that I don't feel like I've read anywhere else, and sometimes I wonder.


message 25: by Bibliophile (last edited Mar 31, 2009 09:52AM) (new)

Bibliophile | 28 comments The Daughter of Time was my revelatory experience about Richard III (I really love Josephine Tey's novel Brat Farrar and so I happened to come across another of her mysteries, and I found it completely gripping and fascinating.)

And I too am a Dunnett fan - if you want a great read about another historical king maligned by Shakespeare, I adore her take on "Macbeth" (it's called King Hereafter) even though, like all novels about Richard, I find the ending almost unbearably difficult to read.


message 26: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments I have to steel myself each time to read about that incredible ride down Ambion Hill and up to within arm's reach of the Tydder poltroon. That passage in Wilson's "Treason" haunted my sleep for weeks. If only ...


message 27: by Joan (new)

Joan Szechtman | 401 comments I too am in the "started with Penman" camp. My curiosity piqued, I rushed to the library and found Kendall's book and have been hooked ever since. IMO, Bertram Fields book--"Royal Blood: Richard III and the Mystery of the Princes" is one of the best I've read in terms of laying out the case for Richard.


message 28: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments I was impressed by the Fields book. There is much to be said for having a trained legal mind look at the evidence and put it in order. This book was one of the first to go on my shelf.


message 29: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
Joan wrote: "I too am in the "started with Penman" camp. My curiosity piqued, I rushed to the library and found Kendall's book and have been hooked ever since. IMO, Bertram Fields book--"Royal Blood: Richard II..."

I had Field's book out from the library to read at the gym and somehow my time ran out. I will have to get that one back.




message 30: by Robin (new)

Robin | 142 comments I just requested this book today from Paperbackswap and can't wait to get my hands on it!


message 31: by Laura (new)

Laura it is a great book Robin!!


message 32: by Christia (new)

Christia I've just recently joined this group - it's nice to know there are others out there who are just as intrigued as I am by the mystery of Richard III.

Daughter of Time is a classic and well wortth reading. For some reason, I feel like the theories in the book were backed up by the author, but it's been so long since I've read the book, I could be wrong. If I remember correctly, I think Daughter of Time was required reading for me in school. I re-read it several years later because I liked it so much.

My own interest in Richard et al (Elizabeth of York and the princes in the tower, etc.) is due solely to Sharon Kay Penman's The Sunne in Splendor. I don't think I've read nearly as many books on the subject as some of the other members of this group have, but it is pretty interesting to realize just how many books, both fiction and non fiction, have been written about this particular historical episode.


message 33: by Laura (new)

Laura Christa, another great book is We Speak No Treason I: The Flowering of the Rose by Rosemary Hawley Jarman


message 34: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
Hi Christia welcome aboard. I still need to get Daughter out from the library. I liked Bertram Field's book Royal Blood. You might also try The Lodestar by Pamela Belle. A more even handed approach.


message 35: by Robin (new)

Robin | 142 comments I need to add The Lodestar to my list. Been meaning to since I saw it mentioned here. I also have We Speak no Treason on my TBR.


message 36: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
Lodestar can be a bit spendy, there were some lower priced on Abe last week. If you find it under $5 I'd recommend snapping it up.


message 37: by Robin (new)

Robin | 142 comments Misfit wrote: "Lodestar can be a bit spendy, there were some lower priced on Abe last week. If you find it under $5 I'd recommend snapping it up."

Thanks! I'll check that out.



message 38: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
I think I may have sold a few copies. Every time I look there are less and less. Still one on Abe for around $1 and one for $5. One at Alibrus for just over $5.


message 39: by Robin (new)

Robin | 142 comments Just got Daughter of Time in the mail from Paperbackswap. Now I've got to finish SKP's Time and Chance before I start it!! AArrgghhh!!


message 40: by Robin (new)

Robin | 142 comments So I started this around lunchtime and I'm already over halfway through with it (with a few hour break in there for church). I am loving it. The details that Grant comes up with about Richard are fascinating.

The more things I read, the more I'm becoming convinced that Richard did not murder his nephews (and certainly wasn't the monster he's been made out to be).


message 41: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
It's a fascinating subject isn't it? Did he or didn't he?

I'm looking forward to Susan's book next year as it's not so Richard favorable. I like looking at all the viewpoints of the matter, except for those books wherein R3 is pure and saintly and oh so perfect.


message 42: by Robin (new)

Robin | 142 comments I finished it up last night. :)

What book next year?? Info please!! :)


message 43: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
Robin wrote: "I finished it up last night. :)

What book next year?? Info please!! :)"


http://www.susanhigginbotham.com/thes...


message 44: by Robin (new)

Robin | 142 comments Ah yes! Okay...I know which one you're talking about now. :)


message 45: by Manybooks (new)

Manybooks Bibliophile wrote: "The Daughter of Time was my revelatory experience about Richard III (I really love Josephine Tey's novel Brat Farrar and so I happened to come across another of her mysteries, and I found it comple..."

We had to read the Daughter of Time in High School. I finished the entire book in a day and became extremely obsessed with proving RIchard III innocence. My obsession went so far that I took my copy of Shakespeare's Richard III and threw darts at it. And, I started to bore the heck out of my mother's friends because I could not stop trying to convince them that Richard was innocent.




message 46: by Jemidar (new)

Jemidar I read this book recently and really liked it :-).

But, I'm sorry to say, it didn't convince me that Richard didn't do it, only that Grant believed he didn't do it. For me it was all just a little too neatly done and a little bit on the thin side evidence wise. Elizabeth of York's marriage to Henry Vll and the fact that Henry never produced bodies when confronted with pretenders speaks volumes to me.


message 47: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
It's such a fascinating debate though. We need someone to invent a time machine and go back and find out the truth. I don't see Richard as some saintly *god* but Penman convinced me he'd be awfully dumb to do it like it happened. I still need to get this one out from the library one of these days.


message 48: by Robin (new)

Robin | 142 comments I agree Misfit. I don't think he was a saint by any stretch but I think he'd have to have been really dumb to do something like that (political suicide!!).


message 49: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
Robin wrote: "I agree Misfit. I don't think he was a saint by any stretch but I think he'd have to have been really dumb to do something like that (political suicide!!)."

Although Jenny has some points. You wonder why Henry didn't produce *some* bodies to stop all the pretenders.

Once upon a time we did a poll on who done them in and I think Henry led the count with Buck a close second.


message 50: by Susan (new)

Susan (boswellbaxter) | 418 comments Ah, but smart people can do really stupid things sometimes! My guess is that having obtained the throne so easily, Richard got cocky and underestimated the outrage the boys' deaths would cause. By the time he realized his mistake, it was too late to write the boys' deaths off to natural causes.

One other reason that Richard might not have put the boys on public display is that one or both of them might have borne marks of violence on their bodies. Murders don't always go as planned (not that I know from personal experience, but I do read criminal cases for a living), and one or both boys might have put up a fight before being killed.


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