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message 1: by Michelle (last edited Jun 13, 2012 06:33AM) (new)

Michelle (goodreadscommysaggingshelves) | 71 comments I have been studying homosexuality and the Bible the last few months and am trying to apply it to my walk with God. Homosexuality is wrong, according to the Bible. What, then, is to be our response to our friends and family members who lean towards that sin, without alienating them?
Here are some of my thoughts from the past few months.
While homosexulaity is wrong, God hates ALL sin, therefore the sin of lying or not honoring your parents is the same in God's eyes as homosexuality. That said, the whole of the gospels is summed up in "Love your neighbor as yourself." You know, the old "hate the sin, love the person."
But how to do you walk this out in everyday life and not come across as being better than that homosexual person or that you are judging them? I don't want to come across as approving of their lifestyle or promote it.
Also, in today's political climate you have to be really careful.
I am really struggling with this. Any help to figure this out would be appreciated.


message 2: by Alkmini (new)

Alkmini Michelle I totally agree with everything you wrote. This is exactly my opinion. We have to judge homosexuality but not the homosexuals. We have to accept them as humans and not as homosexuals because God accepted us even though we were not worth it.
But it's so difficult to love them... And it's also so difficult to treat them the same as before when they are your family or friends... But still... He who is PERFECT and HOLY loved us soooooooooo much that sent His own son to die on a cross so that we can come closer to Him and be called His children!
First of all I think you have to pray for these people. Prayer is really strong and God listens to us. You have to pray for Him to help you see them through His eyes, see the potential in them, love them like He does. You have to pray for you to be able to treat them the same as before and not to judge them.
And then you start talking to them. Show them the scriptures where God says that homosexuality is a sin, but also show them the scriptures where God says how much He loves us and wants us to come back to Him.
Some churches support homosexuality. They say that you can be a christian homosexual. But this is not true. It's clear in the Bible that homosexuality is a sin.
So in my opinion you need to pray for them, show them how much He loves them and also how much you love them.


message 3: by Michelle (last edited Jun 13, 2012 09:46AM) (new)

Michelle (goodreadscommysaggingshelves) | 71 comments I agree with everything you say, Alkmini. I have such a heavy burden of prayer for the person. But, it is the daily living it out that I fail at. The awkward moment when I don't know how to respond to his happiness on finding someone.... I pray for God to speak through me with His words, but I feel I don't hear Him often enough for His words to be there.
Our church agrees that homosexuality is a sin, but he has never gone to church.
Another friend was a pastor of a mainline church, married, had a child. Now divorced and, for the past 7 years living with another man and still in this church as not the main pastor, but the Children's Pastor!!!!!
How does the church respond to these and the others in a loving, nonjudgemental, yet non-approving manner? Are there any programs out there to meet the need? I love to read voraciously yet have never discovered a book that answers my questions on loving the homosexual while hating the sin.


message 4: by Karen (new)

Karen Michelle wrote: "I agree with everything you say, Alkmini. I have such a heavy burden of prayer for the person. But, it is the daily living it out that I fail at. The awkward moment when I don't know how to respo..."

Good stuff, but actually sexual sins are worse than others because Paul says:1Co_6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. Romans 1 shows progression of sin until homosexual ,it is a slope of worse and worse sins, Homosexual is the final result before a country goes down.


message 5: by Janette (new)

Janette Mapes | 84 comments I agree that homosexuality is a sin. I don't know if I agree that you cannot possibly be a Christian Homosexual. That would be like saying you can't be a liar & a christian. Or a glutten and a christian. Sinning is our choice whatever the sin. I do agree that churches should support it or allow it in ministry. I think if you are in a working ministry you should not have open, outward, unrepentant sin going on in your life.

I have 2 people who are close to me who are homosexual & living in an openly gay lifestyle. One is my niece, the other a close friend who formerly went to my church. I distance myself from them. Mainly because I have young kids still at home & I do not want them to get the idea that I agree with this lifestyle. I have other friends & family members involved in other sinful lifestyles & I do the same with them for the same reasons. I do not treat them in a hateful or hurtful manner when I do see them or have contact with them. I have been upfront with them & told them this is why we don't hang out they know where I stand. I pray for them & when opportunities come up for me to say something to them I do. My friend recently met someone & is planning to "marry". I will not be attending her wedding. I would be surprised if I even get an invitation. It is extremely sad because I really want to be happy for her. :(


message 6: by Michelle (new)

Michelle (goodreadscommysaggingshelves) | 71 comments I don't think we should not allow homosexual Christians in the Church. We all sin. But I would equate homosexual sin and adultery on the same level. Therefore, I would not want to see people involved in these types of sins in leadership in the church. Yes, they should be in church, but not influencing a new generation of Christians.
I may not have made myself clear, the former homosexual pastor does not go to my church or denomination.
I agree Karen.I think the open homosexuality is the last step before the nation falls and that is where we are headed.


message 7: by Valencia (new)

Valencia (empowered) | 19 comments I don't think that churches should deny homosexuals either. I believe that all sins are equal. If they were not equal then some past sinners would get a big head thinking 'I sinned less than you so that makes me the better person.' I think we all need to focus on the scripture that says 'For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;' (Romans 3:23). I believe the only way to get them to turn from homosexuality is to show them God's love for them and not how it's a sin in the bible. That is a bit condemning, but if you show them God's love and help and pray that they gain a deep thrist for God the rest will come later. You'll be able to talk to them and tell them when they repent they are suppose to stop whatever it is that they are knowingly doing that's a sin. Also, that it will be a struggle to change, but that God will help them if they seek Him diligently and that you will help them in anyway possible and pray and talk with them if they need it.

@Janette I agree with not bringing them around your kids. I wouldn't want my kids around that either. I'd most likely talk to them so that they know what's going on, why it's wrong, and the need for me to pray for them and show them God's love. With the world going as it is, they will most likely have people that's close to them that's homosexual.


message 8: by Margaret (new)

Margaret Metz | 102 comments I think you've all made valid points. I think the reason why the Bible makes the distinction about sexual sins is that when you become a Christian, you are inviting God to reside inside your body -- becoming a temple for the Holy Spirit. Sexual sins . . . well they are like defiling a church during a worship service. It's like trying very hard to insult God.

Homosexuality is also unique because unlike most sins, it's a lifestyle. A person may steal something, but most people who claim to love God aren't going to do it regularly --- let alone as a pattern of thought - every day - and action most of the time. So, it's different than a lot of sins people battle with.

I don't think that means God has given up on them. I have known people who gave up that lifestyle, married, and become very active in the church. I also have had . . . acquaintances that were gay. They knew where I stood. I didn't hit them over the head with the Bible, but I did offer to pray for them when they had problems. I appreciated their talents and abilities - and I hoped that by offering a positive example I might plant some seeds.

The truth is that sometimes by being more interested in them as a person than in evangelizing them - you may get a chance to share your faith. If they ask you a question, be ready to answer it honestly and with grace - but don't see them as a project. Try to see them as God does. He may not like what they're doing, but He created them and loves a lot of other things about them.


message 9: by Michelle (new)

Michelle (goodreadscommysaggingshelves) | 71 comments Hmmm. I like that Margaret-- "don't see them as a project." I will have to ponder that.


message 10: by Patricia (last edited Jun 17, 2012 06:03AM) (new)

Patricia Kirk | 154 comments My problem is their pride in their sin. Asking us to accept a homosexual partner or attend their "wedding" is a slap in the face. And I feel that people like Ellen have done irreparable harm to America with their "look at me. Ain't I wonderful" and calling everyone who doesn't believe in what they do a bigot. People love her because she's cute and they think that makes her sin right. If Christians worked as hard as homosexuals do to get us to accept their sin, America would still be a Christian nation.

There is a war on and we shouldn't be too accepting. Several years ago there was a program on TV about a couple who took in their son who was dieing of AIDs and they were a wonderful example. They were loving and caring, but not for a minute did they accept his homosexuality. They used his last days to try to get him to repent as gently as possible. I don't believe he did and he died in his sins, but they had fulfilled their responsibility. I know that didn't stop their grief, but they carried no guilt.

That should be our main concern and lead us to fervent prayer. "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [a]effeminate, nor homosexuals, ... " 1 Corinthians 6:9 "... Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." 6:11. (NASB)Once repentant, they should have nothing but our love and support, remembering that though we may not have committed their sin, we were as much sinners as they.


message 11: by Michelle (new)

Michelle (goodreadscommysaggingshelves) | 71 comments Great points, Pat. A common misstep these days is to naively confuse sincerity and empathy with truth. How warped our thinking has become....and it only digs a deeper hole for us than our corrupt nature has already produced within us.

Sin hasn't only effected our body and soul....it has corrupted our ability to reason spiritually. Sin produces spiritual insanity within us. That is actually one of the most damaging consequences of having a messed up hard drive inside of us.

Those professing Christians who affirm the gay lifestyle are not acting in God's love when they promote this sinful behavior. They feel they are being loving and kind and tolerant, but true and eternal love never contradicts the Word of God. Christ's love places the Word of God above human feelings and emotions, even when it involves friends and relatives.

That is probably one of the toughest things about being a Christian....if only God's law didn't apply to our unsaved friends and loved ones....if only those close to us were exempt and could do it their own way with no eternal consequences....if only our gay friends or relatives were allowed by God to get away with sinning to their heart's content. Why does God's Word have to apply to everyone? Because it is from God....and that makes it the law of the universe.

We can go with emotion, which is unreliable....or with God's Word, which is perfect and unchanging. God's law does not bend just because we don't get it....or because we were misled by false information. We live in a world where millions of young people have been taught that everyone gets to define what is right and wrong in their own eyes. How many souls do you suppose have been deceived and damned by that pernicious doctrine? One of the many dangers of wrong doctrine is that it only increases sinful desires.

To assume that every desire I experience is something I deserve to have fulfilled is an extremely misguided assumption. The world does not revolve around me and my desires. It revolves around God and His inerrant Word, even when that Word tells me that some of my strongest desires come from my corrupt nature and not from Him. Jesus said, "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man unclean." (Matthew 15:19,20)

Yet, it is the living it out that I fail at. My head knows what is right, my heart fails at carrying it out.


message 12: by Patricia (new)

Patricia Kirk | 154 comments Michelle wrote: "Great points, Pat. A common misstep these days is to naively confuse sincerity and empathy with truth. How warped our thinking has become....and it only digs a deeper hole for us than our corrupt ..."Amen


message 13: by Mary (new)

Mary Findley | 143 comments So many sincere and empathetic people are still pretty gross sinners. They wear their feelings-based philosophy like a badge of honor and if you don't ignore everything about them but those characteristics, you're a bigot. We must "accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative." :-(


message 14: by Margaret (new)

Margaret Metz | 102 comments Pat W. wrote: "My problem is their pride in their sin. Asking us to accept a homosexual partner or attend their "wedding" is a slap in the face. And I feel that people like Ellen have done irreparable harm to Ame..."

My own problem with this particular post is the . . . tone of it. I can't think of a better way to say it. You talked about "being at war" when the Bible tells us our struggle is not against flesh and bone. The people have been sold a false set of goods - lied to and deceived. We are supposed to love them enough to want them to come to the truth. We shouldn't see them as the enemy. The only true enemy we have is the devil.

I agree that we shouldn't just accept and put our stamp of approval on their lifestyle. I wouldn't go to a homosexual wedding or anything like that. However I don't think that if the only contact we have with them is us curling our lips in disgust and then telling them how they are going to burn in hell we're going to be winning many to Christ.

It may be a more serious sin, but nobody is without sin - so we can all relate on some level. In fact, all sexual sins are lumped together and Jesus upped the stakes by saying that even looking with lust in your heart counts as adultery.

His only truly harsh words of judgement were reserved for those religious leaders who believed themselves better than everyone else.

I don't think we should water down the gospel at all. I do think we should be true disciples of Christ and follow His example. How would He treat people caught up in homosexuality? I remember how He treated the woman caught in the very act of adultery. He saved her life, gave a sermon to those who were attacking her about their own sin, then forgave her and let her go with a simple admonition to sin no more.


message 15: by Alkmini (new)

Alkmini I don't think that homosexuality is a more serious sin than others. It's just more difficult to stop it. I agree with you Margaret, that we have to love them. As I said before, we have to love the people and hate the sin. We have to judge the sin not the sinners, because we all are sinners. If we "curl our lips in disgust", as you said, these people won't see the love we have for them through Christ... So, they will never come back to Him. We have to show them that God loves them through our acts.


message 16: by Alkmini (new)

Alkmini Janette wrote: "I agree that homosexuality is a sin. I don't know if I agree that you cannot possibly be a Christian Homosexual. That would be like saying you can't be a liar & a christian. Or a glutten and a ch..."

When I said you cannot be a Christian homosexual I meant that you cannot be a christian but still believe that homosexuality is not wrong. Like christians who lie, want to stop lying because they don't want to disappoint God, but people who believe that lying is not a sin cannot be Christians. Sorry for not making it clear!


message 17: by Patricia (last edited Jun 18, 2012 09:58AM) (new)

Patricia Kirk | 154 comments Margaret wrote: "Pat W. wrote: "My problem is their pride in their sin. Asking us to accept a homosexual partner or attend their "wedding" is a slap in the face. And I feel that people like Ellen have done irrepara..."you are right of course. I probably did come off as harsh. And I agree that our war isn't against flesh and blood, but I still see us at war. The young people in my family don't get married any more. And while they are at it they have babies who will have to fight that stigma all their lives. I really hate that. But I'm not unkind to them and I see the babies as blameless and gifts. I think my treatment of them is pretty much the same thing as how we treat people in the homosexual life.

On the other hand, I see too much acceptance of something we should be against. There is a proverb that says (I'm sorry, I don't have the verse)that we should not call evil good. I've never told someone they would go to hell, but the fact remains that without our prayer (and other) intervention, that is exactly what will happen to them. I don't want to be responsible for that.


message 18: by Michelle (new)

Michelle (goodreadscommysaggingshelves) | 71 comments Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.


message 19: by Rod (last edited Jun 18, 2012 10:42AM) (new)

Rod Horncastle This is a deep concern. This issue is going to change the world and the way religion is perceived and accepted.

I've asked many people about the how this problem will play out in eternity: It usually just shows where their hearts are and how much they disapprove of God.
Ask anyone with sexual addictions and confusions what they think of an eternity in Heaven with NO sex. Many say they would rather be in HELL.
That is the root of the problem. Sex rather than Jesus' Kingdom and absolute authority.

Its one thing to sin (we all do it) its another to choose sin over Jesus. Many just want to hang onto their sins and mix Jesus in. Unacceptable. Even the Church is wimping out.


message 20: by Valencia (new)

Valencia (empowered) | 19 comments There are no relationships in Heaven. There is only God and the love of God. Really like they can have sex in Hell.


message 21: by Patricia (new)

Patricia Kirk | 154 comments Michelle wrote: "Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter."right.


message 22: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Many people i've talked to are under the impression that Hell is a wild party where anything goes. I don't know where they are getting this from? Mostly Hollywood - or AC/DC.

I find it very curious what people think of a Heaven where Jesus is fully incharge. Every false religion has this as their ultimate challenge.
Is there Homosexuals who love Jesus more than being gay? I'd like to meet one.
For many years I loved music more than Jesus. Its interesting to finally wake up.


message 23: by Valencia (last edited Jun 19, 2012 09:43AM) (new)

Valencia (empowered) | 19 comments Most of us reach (or should reach) a day where we finally choose where our loyalties lay and who/what we will honor with our life.


message 24: by Michelle (new)

Michelle (goodreadscommysaggingshelves) | 71 comments Very true, Valencia. I feel that is where I am at. Am I willing to press through and, most likely, lose a good friend, or, deny God, which I will not do. It is time for me to put my beliefs into practice.


message 25: by Valencia (new)

Valencia (empowered) | 19 comments Amen!


message 26: by Margaret (last edited Jun 20, 2012 07:29AM) (new)

Margaret Metz | 102 comments Rod wrote: "Many people i've talked to are under the impression that Hell is a wild party where anything goes. I don't know where they are getting this from? Mostly Hollywood - or AC/DC.

I find it very curiou..."


I think this is very true. A lot of people I've talked to truly believe heaven is where they will be able to have and do whatever they want and everyone will be happy and nice to each other all the time - and everyone will be rich. They also believe hell will be sort of like the bad parts of town (or a bad mafia movie) -- lots of smoking, drinking, staying up late and partying ... people dancing and taking whatever they want from anyone weaker than them -- unless they have made deals with powerful people to protect them. Of course a lot of them believe they will BE the powerful people.

I had to edit to add that I don't think it's just about choosing our loyalty. I think we do that when we accept Christ. I also believe that if you love Him then you have to accept that His main desire was that nobody be lost - His main mandate was to go and make disciples. We can't ignore the lost and those who need Him.

Mark 2:16-18

16 When the scribes of the Pharisees saw that He was eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they said to His disciples, “ Why is He eating and drinking with tax collectors and sinners?” 17 And hearing this, Jesus said to them, “ It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”


message 27: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Margaret quote:
" They also believe hell will be sort of like the bad parts of town (or a bad mafia movie)."

That's a great way to put it.

You said a wise thing Margaret. Choosing our loyalty is only the beginning. Awesome.

My favorite Bible character is the Thief on the cross. He chose his loyalty obviously: "Remember me when you come into your Kingdom."
But he also had a very short ministry with the other thief: "Do you not fear God, since you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds..."


message 28: by Patricia (last edited Jun 25, 2012 07:26AM) (new)

Patricia Kirk | 154 comments Rod wrote: "This is a deep concern. This issue is going to change the world and the way religion is perceived and accepted.

I've asked many people about the how this problem will play out in eternity: It usu..."
I agree with you in this case. Wow. They say they would rather go to Hell? That shows what their god is. And that they have no concept of Hell.


message 29: by Johnnie (new)

Johnnie (berfer) As far as the Cross, has it occurred that Jesus was even acting as a King on the Throne separating the goats from the sheep.


message 30: by Shelly Rowlan (new)

Shelly Rowlan | 2 comments Thanks so much for these posts. I am glad to know that so many intelligent and truly concerned Christians are trying to work out the homosexuality issue. I agree it is a very serious sin and do not want any legislation passed that allow gay marriage as an "ordinary sexual union".


message 31: by Michelle (new)

Michelle (goodreadscommysaggingshelves) | 71 comments Shelly, we are all trying to be Jesus to the world and are helping each other figure out what that means to each other. :)


message 32: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Actually to take this argument one step further:

There are two ways to look at the gay marriage issue
1) This is Satan's planet. They can do whatever they want. We are foreigners. This is not our home.

2) Some people believe the endtimes have already come (preterists, Tony Campolo, some crazy liberals...) These people have a huge problem: they believe we are living in eternity now; all prophecy and Revelation judgements have already come (A.D. 70 destruction of Jerusalem), Satan is bound...
These people believe it is our duty to clean up the world and make eternity presentable to God. Good luck!

If this is eternity - I don't want it.


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