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Sarah
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Jul 17, 2012 06:49PM
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Kiyo is hot but many people hate him.
Claire wrote: "You have pretty much just summed up my feelings about Eugenie and then ending. Eugenie gets more heat than any other character in the series even though her bad decisions (ex. antibiotics and contraception) are less serious than other people's (i.e. Dorian starting a war, Kiyo trying to murder her, Leith turning into a rapist)."
But Leith and to a certain extent Kiyo are bad guys. Eugenie is the heroine so I expect some sort of intelligence and likeable character traits which she doesn't have.
Claire wrote: "In fact, I'd say most people are a hell of a lot stupider than Eugenie. (For example, at least she bothered with contraception. How many women her age can say the same?)"
How old is Eugenie? Isn't she in her mid-twenties? Apart from that... It doesn't help if you bother with contraception but are too stupid to use it properly.
I agree the I am harder on protagonists that are supposed to be heroic, but I am not harder on females in general. Personally I can forgive the ignorance about antibiotics and birth control (though it's is a rather stupid error for someone who is educated and who would presumably listen to her doctor when she first started taking the pill). My problem with Eugenie is what I see as deeper character flaws: fickleness, self-contentedness and a failure to truly think important decisions through and consult others who should rightfully have a say in the matter. She doesn't recolonize any of those qualities or the actions that flow from them as mistakes. She doesn't take any steps to try to change. She just goes with the flow of whatever she feels at the moment and assumes her feeling make her right, no matter how it effect other people.@ Clair Dorian didn't start the war. Leith did. Historically, a policy of appeasement has never maintained peace--it just allows the aggressor to take more land and be in a stronger position when the opposition finally rallies to defend itself. Eugenie may not have thought past her own feelings (which were reason enough to kill Leith) but I want to believe Dorian knows something about strength, power and politics.
About Eugenie and contraception: Yep she's in her midtwenties. But really, I could understand the mistake. It's easy to overlook something when you've gotten used to it. I'd argue careless, not stupid. @Tangled I think that Dorian did the right thing, but that doesn't change the fact that his actions led Roweena to declare war.
I just don't see Eugenie as the selfish person everyone else does. Maybe if she were a real person instead of a character I'd be harder on her. But it's only a book.
Clair, I understand that argument, but it wasn't Dorian's actions that led to war. Dorian's actions were just an excuse to formally continue what Leith had already begun in secret. Leith was already invading Eugenie's territory and taking her people. That may not be a formal declaration of war, but it might as well be. Then he kidnapped and raped the queen. That is cause for war. But oh no, we should worry about Roweena? Frak that. There was no response that would have prevented war after Leith started his actions. If they had let Leith go, it would signal every other land that Eugenie was a weak ruler who would not defend her people or even her own body. It would especially teach Leith and Roweena that they could do as they liked and Eugenie was ripe for the picking. Leith would be stupid not to escalate his invasions after such a weak response.
Roweena had not formally declared war before Dorian killed Leith, but Leith had been invading Eugenie's land and her person. But for his aggression, there would have been no war. Dorian's actions were just the logical and proper response to Leith's acts of war. Both Leith and Roweena surely knew that all along.
Leith caused the war. Dorian just stopped a policy of appeasement that would have prolonged the time in which other lands would have chipped away at Eugenie and her people until she had to fight back.
@ Clair (again) :) re: "It's just a book". That's funny. I am harder on fictional characters than I am on real people. I would have more compassion for most of Eugenie's flaws if it were not a book (though I would still strongly disagree with not telling the father where his child was or that his child was alive). The "it's fictional" rational gives me permission to be judgmental without worrying about hurting someone's feelings or being unfair.
For me, it depends on how real the character is to me. I didn't get as attached to Eugenie as a character, so when she did something stupid I just got annoyed at RM for writing something so absurd.
Well, yeah lots of people should hate Kiyo. But he's an antagonist so they get less leeway from readers. There are a lot of "heros" of books who are total losers though and are loved by readers. I like Dorian but he has flaws just like Eugenie but he's not as hated. re the birth control issue: I think a lot of people wouldn't know that unless their doctor told them. Some times when I've been prescribed an antibiotic the doctor asked if I was on the pill but sometimes they haven't. So if this was the first time she used the two meds she might not know and a lot of people don't. As soon as she started taking the antibiotics in the book I knew she would get pregnant. A friend of mine was totally surprised by the pregnancy and she's in her late 30's mother of 4. I also knew there was a possibility that the babies could be Dorian's because sperm stays alive in the womb for a few days but a lot of people wouldn't know that. And Claire is right a lot of people don't bother with birth control and condoms to prevent STDs, now that's dumb.
I don't think eugenie is selfish at all. Flawed reasoning, wrong decisions, but they weren't for selfish reasons. She has acted selfishly a few times, but she isn't a selfish person imo.a lot of RL people I know have made the antibiotics mistake. lol.
@ Claire Hee hee. I could blame the author too. :)Sarah, for what it's worth, I hate Kiyo too. Dorian has flaws as well, but he's open about them. It's not as if we are supposed to see Dorian as anything other than power hungry, manipulative and a bully to those he sees as weak when it amuses him. We're supposed to think Eugenie is good (I think). That's why she disappointed me and Dorian didn't. That's also why I like Volusian.
@Zeenat I don't see Eugenie as selfish so much as self-centered. She's egotistical the way a small child is--not in a nasty way, but unable to see past her own perspective and immediate emotional state. She may care about others and the greater good as she sees it, but she often relies solely on her gut feelings without consulting others or talking things through, and she does as she thinks is best without any input and debate from those who might have in interest in the outcome. I think she cares about others, but she doesn't really consider them as equals or advisers or people who should have any say in decisions that effect them.
Gosh. Leith had such a bitch name he just had to die...
Tangled wrote: "@ Claire Hee hee. I could blame the author too. :)Sarah, for what it's worth, I hate Kiyo too. Dorian has flaws as well, but he's open about them. It's not as if we are supposed to see Dorian as..."
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that Richelle Mead will never be my favorite author. She just relies too much on cheap tactics to take the story where she thinks it should go.
Zeenat wrote: "I don't think eugenie is selfish at all. Flawed reasoning, wrong decisions, but they weren't for selfish reasons. She has acted selfishly a few times, but she isn't a selfish person imo.
a lot o..."
That's how I feel about her, too.
Maggie wrote: "Gosh. Leith had such a bitch name he just had to die..."
Yes, absolutely.
Eugenie was not selfish, she was just stupid. In fact, she was so stupid that she could not learn from her mistakes and made the same ones over and over. (Think Kiyo of the one tail.)
When you get down to it, the series was fun to read, but I don't think it rates a second read, whereas something along the lines of Kate Daniels, Anita Blake, Bloodhound Files, etc., all not only deserve a second (or third) reading, but get it from me.
When you get down to it, the series was fun to read, but I don't think it rates a second read, whereas something along the lines of Kate Daniels, Anita Blake, Bloodhound Files, etc., all not only deserve a second (or third) reading, but get it from me.
So we all agree on hating Kiyo then, right?
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No!!! I only hate Eugenie!
Can we all agree that we love Volusian?? :)
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