Richelle Mead Discussion

[Claire]

Urgh, foreign tomato sauce *shudders*. Cooking is one of my favorite things to do, especially when other people enjoy the food I've made. And I'm lucky enough to have a family I enjoy spending time with. Sure, they have a few annoying habits, but mostly I love them too much to notice.

[Lannister]

Finally, I get my chance to write up my thoughts on the ending of Shadow Heir.
(view spoiler)[
I can see why some of you were annoyed at the ending where things were kinda left hanging. I just felt so annoyed at Eugenie (and I suppose, by extension, Richelle Mead). I guess if it were a contractual situation, that goes some way to explaining the problems. She possibly meant to extend some of the plots into subsequent books.

I didn't see the twist with Pagiel coming, though in retrospect there were enough clues for me to at least have considered it, so kudos to RM for springing that one. Mostly I felt extreme annoyance with Eugenie for just leaving her kids with what are little more than strangers. Charles and Candace are probably the nicest people in the world (and what a coincidence that they just happened to be childless, yet desperate for children) but WTF Eugenie?? I mean, you might hide a secret magical talisman or whatever away in deepest Alabama, but your children?? How long are they going to live there? A year? Five years? Until they go to college? WTF kind of parent does that?

I get that there's potentially still risk to them, but I think I'd have taken them to Otherworld and surrounded them with guards in either my castle or Dorian's. At least they would be heavily protected there. Secrecy is the only thing that protects them right now, and sooner or later someone will make a slip up. And what happens a few years down the line, when Eugenie decides she wants her kids? Is she just going to drag them away from the people they've grown up with, without a thought for the emotions of everyone involved? Actually, since this is Eugenie we're talking about, that's exactly what she would do.

And Kiyo and the snip!! Oh dear, that was bad. He basically didn't tell her just so that he could be on hand to persuade her to have an abortion. That is so awful, even though Eugenie's a selfish idiot. And not telling Dorian that the kids are his is even worse. Her reasons for not telling him are utterly selfish. It doesn't matter a jot to her that Dorian was desperate for children. She's not telling him cos he'll make a fuss about bringing them to Otherworld (you know, just so that he can KNOW his kids and can keep them SAFE!! Jeez, what kind of father is that?!)

I actually find her behaviour towards her children (and their father) to be quite unforgivable. She doesn't give a flying f*ck about anyone else. Dorian has a right to know about his kids, and not telling him just because it might mess up YOUR plans shows an incredible level of self-absorption. Surely a good parent would do what's best for her children, rather than what happens to best suit her, and I believe that would be sending them to Otherworld. I mean, Eugenie commands a frigging ARMY and Dorian would move heaven and earth (quite literally!) to keep them safe and well. Contrast that with a well-meaning couple in rural Alabama, which is all they've got to protect them right now.

I'm stunned at how much of a selfish bitch Eugenie is. Yeah, Kiyo's behaviour was extremely shitty too, but Eugenie has quickly found a way to work it to her advantage. I feel so angry with her.

What a sorry bunch of characters RM has created!

(hide spoiler)]

[Susie]

Lannister wrote: "Finally, I get my chance to write up my thoughts on the ending of Shadow Heir.

I can see why some of you were annoyed at the ending where things were kinda left hanging. I just felt so annoyed at..."

I COMPLETELY agree! (view spoiler)[ The ONLY thing is, I THINK she said something about not wanting the kids growing up with having bodyguards following them all the time, that it wouldn't be a "normal" childhood, which is what she wants for her children BUT and this is a huge but, that is ABSOLUTELY NO excuse for keeping Dorian away from his kids!! That is just despicable!! It makes me feel so sad for him. And that sweet couple, if she decides to take them back in a few years they will be heart broken, unless she waits till they are 18 so they would normally be moving out anyway! Man if there are any more books and she don't get her shit together in the next "few months" (story time) Dorian is going to go bat shit crazy when he finds out. That is to say RM doesn't turn him into a pushover and just accepts it because he "loves" her!! GRRR it makes me so angry which is so stupid 'cause it is a story lol (hide spoiler)] So yes I think your feelings about sum it up for me as well.

[Claire]

@Lannister I agree with a lot what you said. (view spoiler)[ Clearly, I like Eugenie a lot more than everyone else on this thread, but even I'm incredibly pissed off that Eugenie chose to hide her children from Dorian. I do think that on some level, Eugenie didn't want Dorian screwing up her plans, but I don't think that's how Eugenie thought about it. I think Eugenie believed she had come up with the only possible way to ensure the safety of her children and she was going to stick with it, even if it meant keeping Dorian in the dark. I agree with you guys that it was a mistake. Eugenie's enemies found her once, it's not unreasonable to think they'd find her children. Their secrecy is the only thing keeping them safe; if anyone ever comes after those kids, that sweet couple doesn't stand a chance. However, I got the feeling at the end of the book that Eugenie did plan to tell Dorian about the kids after she had time to think about it. In fact, the way RM wrote that part of the ending was what had me thinking that Shadow Heir wasn't the last book. It just seemed like she intended to continue the plot line. I definitely think it was both stupid and unfair to not tell Dorian the children were his immediately after Eugenie found out. Not only for the children's safety, but for her own. Dorian made it pretty clear that he was through with Eugenie keeping things from him and not trusting him. I have a hard time believing that Dorian will be very forgiving. For the children's sake, he will forgive her- he wants to be a parent too much not to. But in the interim, Eugenie would be leaving herself dangerously devoid of allies after making enemies of Maiwenn, Kiyo, and the Yew Kingdom. I really wish that RM would find a way to continue the series somehow. I really want to see how Dorian reacts. I mean, there's no way he won't find out eventually. (hide spoiler)]

[Lannister]

Yup, good points Susie! (view spoiler)[So having bodyguards wouldn't be a normal childhood, but leaving your kids with someone else, and jetting in to say hello once in a while is? Eugenie's reasoning is nonsensical. About Dorian, if he ever finds out about the kids, I hope he claims the Otherworld equivalent of sole custody, since Eugenie clearly isn't a fit mother!! I wonder if Dorian would just blindly accept Eugenie's lies, since he wanted kids so badly. He should tie her up with his intricate knots in his dungeon and leave her there! (hide spoiler)] Since the series is finished, I guess we'll never know what would have happened.

[Mello ❣ Illium ✮Harry✮ ☀Myrnin☀ Torin]

Do you see why I was so upset with that last book? And why, by the end, I felt Eugenie didn't deserve Dorian? I really would have thrown that book clear across the room had it not been on my kindle.

[Claire]

Definitely not my favorite way to end the series, not going to lie. I think if RM planned to leave the reader curious, there were far better ways to go about it. Nevertheless, despite Eugenie's faulty reasoning (view spoiler)[ she clearly loves her children even if she has a stupid way of going about raising them (hide spoiler)].

I don't know that I'd say Eugenie doesn't deserve Dorian; he's certainly no saint. But I do agree that he doesn't deserve her final decision or the way she chose to treat him.

Do you guys think RM will ever do something like write a short story in the Dark Swan universe to try and tie up loose ends?

[Mello ❣ Illium ✮Harry✮ ☀Myrnin☀ Torin]

I hope that she does if just to tie that thread up. There are better ways to leave something open-ended. I get there was a contractual thing, but that ending is so frustrating.

And true, Dorian is no saint, but I guess that whole thing just put me off of their relationship entirely.

[Lannister]

Mello, yeah, I can totally understand what you're saying about Eugenie not deserving Dorian. She needs to grow up, though if becoming a queen and having children doesn't bring maturity, I'm not sure what will.

And I'm glad you didn't launch your Kindle across the room! No need to damage blameless electronic devices because of stupid authors! :D

Claire, I suppose Eugenie does love her children, but I don't feel that it's the kind of selfless love that a parent should give a child. I can't help but think that Eugenie's decisions are all about Eugenie first and foremost, rather than her offspring. That's the way I see it, anyway.

A short story to wrap up things might be interesting, though the way I feel right now, I'm not even sure I'd want to read it!!

[Claire]

@Mello that's how I feel about the ending. There are better ways to end a series under pressure.

@Lannister (view spoiler)[ I felt like Eugenie's decision to leave her children in Alabama, while incredibly stupid, also caused her a lot of heartache. It seemed to me that she really didn't want to do it but thought it was the only way to keep them safe. I don't agree with it, but I do honestly think she viewed it as a selfless sacrifice on her part. That's just my take on it though. (hide spoiler)]

[Lannister]

Claire, I freely admit my dislike for Eugenie is probably biasing my opinions. I find it hard to see the good in any of her actions. You're probably right and I'm just cynical! :)

[Maggie]

Here is a hypothetical. I've read 3 series by RM. I don't give enough of a shit to finish the Succubus series after book 5. I haven't given a damn about Eugenie & haven't started book 4. BUT, the Vampire Academy series? I inhaled it!! Totally loved. So, my theory is RM writes good teenage characters as VA is YA. We can expect immaturity from them & it is ok. Imo, the characters in VA grew throughout the series. RM's adult book the characters don't seem to change or grow or learn a lesson. Can you dig it? Anyone else here read VA?

[[deleted user]]

As a father of two daughters, I can categorically say that if the mother of my children - we've been together 34 years now - had pulled this stunt on me, when I found out about it I'd have killed her. I know I joke a lot about how I get along with my family, but my kids are everything to me. From their birth to this day I do not regret a second of the time I've spent with them. Whether or not I'm the greatest father on earth is debatable, but I was always there for them, and they for me. The thought of having just found out about them after they're adults is a painful thought - you'd never get to know them at this point. Eugenie is an idiot for even thinking this is right - and apparently RM is an idiot for having Eugenie think this.

Just my two cents!

[Mello ❣ Illium ✮Harry✮ ☀Myrnin☀ Torin]

Maggie wrote: "Here is a hypothetical. I've read 3 series by RM. I don't give enough of a shit to finish the Succubus series after book 5. I haven't given a damn about Eugenie & haven't started book 4. BUT, the V..."

I read VA and loved it even though Rose frustrated me some times. I definitely think she's a better YA author as opposed to doing adult series. I will admit that I really, really liked the Succubus series, although Georgina has an awful tendency to whine.

[Lannister]

I haven't read Vampire Academy so I can't comment unfortunately. But I think what Maggie says make sense. We tend to judge teenagers' behaviour differently from adults and if Eugenie were sixteen, I maybe would feel differently. Well, apart from the whole pregnancy thing!!

I'm kinda tempted to read the Succubus series. It's been on my radar for a while. Is Georgina another Eugenie?

Duane, I agree. Many women are quick to criticise men for not taking a part in their children's lives, and for dodging child support and things like that. But at the same time, a woman can't not tell a man if he has a child. Women shouldn't get to pick and choose when fathers can be involved. You can't have it both ways. (Though I will say that abortion ultimately is the woman's choice, because it's her body that's affected and a person should always have control over their own body).

[Maggie]

Naw. I think Georgia is more in tune w/ what she wants but, as Mello said she is whiny.

[Lannister]

Hmmm, I don't know if that's better or worse. :)

[Sarah ♥ dog crazy ♥ , Mircea's Moderatrix]

I finished Shadow Heir.

This book was really boring. It's the last in the series and I expected some exciting storylines/scenes but it left me cold.

Eugenie is her usual stupid self. I know many hated her decision to not tell Dorian that he is the father of the children. I did as well but I'm not surprised. She's always been a selfish bitch and I don't see why this should change. Where other characters develop and grow during the course of a series, she regressed and only got worse.

Apart from that I think her decision to not tell him and leave the children in the human world is idiotic. They can live a 'normal' live there? Really? They are 3/4 gentry who are healthier and live longer. Does she think no one notices something weird about them? Eugenie also doesn't want them grow up among bodyguards. I'd give a damn about that if it means my children are safe, or at least safer. Leaving them in the human world with one shaman is no protection at all. Sooner or later her enemies will find them and honestly... I hope they use Isaac for their means or kill him. Simply to show Eugenie how stupid she is.

Btw, pretty convenient that the couple in Alabama can't have children and it's their dream to have some. *rolls eyes*

I really don't get the way RM wrote Kiyo. He was a great guy, then tried to kill Eugenie and the children, then is nice(er) again in this book. Makes no sense!

I guess the big loser of the series is Dorian. Since these books have to have an unavoidable HEA he gets paired with an ungrateful, lying, stupid, selfis bitch! That's a shame! I still cannot understand how anyone who likes Dorian would want that for him.

The reason I gave this book two starts is the nice twist with Pagiel and the fact that I like Volusian.

I really hope RM will NOT write another book/short story in this series because we all know how it'll go: Dorian will find out about the children - some drama between him and Eugenie - he FORGIVES her (urgh!!!) - HEA. I don't want that. Eugenie does not deserve that. No kingdoms, no Dorian, no children. Nothing!

I hope she'll get killed, then Shaya and Jasmine can have her kingdoms and Dorian his children. That'd be best.

[Mello ❣ Illium ✮Harry✮ ☀Myrnin☀ Torin]

Nice write up Sarah.

[Sarah ♥ dog crazy ♥ , Mircea's Moderatrix]

Thanks. I'm glad I'm finished and have that out of my system. LOL

[Claire]

@Lannister I definitely liked the Georgina series more than VA or Dark Swan. I don't necessarily think Georgina is whiny, but she is definitely prone to making stupid decisions. Most of the time she isn't that bad, but there are moments when Georgina acts like a child. Again though, RM is a big fan of the HEA and the end of the series reflects this. Personally, since I too like the HEA (provided it's well done) it didn't bother me.

As for judging Eugenie less harshly if she were a teenager...Well, I stopped reading the VA series because I thought the way the characters behaved was incredibly stupid. Then again, my mother likes to say I was 40 years old since the day I was born, so I may be less tolerant than most.

[Mello ❣ Illium ✮Harry✮ ☀Myrnin☀ Torin]

Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ wrote: "Thanks. I'm glad I'm finished and have that out of my system. LOL"

Haha, I bet.

[Lannister]

I wonder if there's fanfic about the end to the series. This is how I'd write it:

Dorian finds out about his kids and gets so mad, his castle almost falls apart around him. He goes to Alabama for his kids (and he invites Charles and Candace to come too as honoured guests). He takes them all to Otherworld, then returns to Tuscon to find Eugenie. He's found some special spell that strips all magical powers from someone, and he uses this spell on Eugenie. As she lies gasping on the floor, he tells her he's taken his kids to treasure in Otherworld, and she won't be able to cross there ever again since she has no magic now. He returns to Otherworld and lives HEA.
The End.

:D

[Sarah ♥ dog crazy ♥ , Mircea's Moderatrix]

I'd love to read that, Lannister! :-)

[Tangled]

I am generally a fan of the HEA (unless the ending has some twisted point to make). I didn't see this as a HEA. I agree with Sarah that the children are more at risk "hidden" in the human world (like no one would check that out ever? Really?) than they would be with education, training, guards--and the love and personal involvement of two parents. I strongly feel that children are entitled to two parents if both are willing and available. Her unilateral decision to cut them off not only from her, but from their father (even if he owuld have raised both as his it counts for me), a man who wants and loves children. That is not a HEA. It may be a set up for a new series when the Fae hits the fan for the kids, but it is not happy. It is a sad, rage inducing ending. I don't hate Eugenie quite as much as Sarah did, but at the "happy" end I wanted to smack her silly and explain fathers rights and children's rights, and that she can't decide on her own what is "best" because she can't even do right by her own self. Volusian would have made a better parent.

I am going with Lannister's mini fan fic ending. That makes me "happy".

[Claire]

I don't think this was a HEA either, to be honest. Too much was left unfinished. I really don't mind Eugenie at all. I hate the ending, but that's RM's fault. I'm holding out hope for some sort of closure later on down the road, but I'm not counting on it. I felt like this series was poorly conceived and that it was abandoned.

[Sarah ♥ dog crazy ♥ , Mircea's Moderatrix]

Kiyo's behavior was RM's fault as well. I know he wasn't a good guy all the time but still... Some parts felt weird.

[Claire]

This is true, part of the unnecessary freak out was RM. But I never liked Kiyo, even at the beginning.

[Lannister]

I did like Kiyo at the start when he was all open and honest that he wanted sex. But as I read on, I decided I liked Dorian better!

What do you all think about Volusian's demise? Do you think that was a fitting end for him, or would you have preferred him to survive or what?

And who wishes that he'd got his desire to destroy Eugenie's soul and cause her unending agony and whatever else he promised to do to her LOL!!

[[deleted user]]

With all the Kiyo Psycho stuff going on, I thought I'd better put Boo-Boo-Kitty on Kitsune Guard Duty - this is her looking out the window into the front yard. Hope she isn't tricked by that one tail of Kiyo's!

[Sarah ♥ dog crazy ♥ , Mircea's Moderatrix]

Lannister wrote: "I did like Kiyo at the start when he was all open and honest that he wanted sex. But as I read on, I decided I liked Dorian better!"

I don't know why but to me Dorian always felt like a cartoon character and most of the time I couldn't take him seriously. He's okay but not that exciting. It's shallow but his long red hair is also a total turn-off in my opinion.

Lannister wrote: "What do you all think about Volusian's demise? Do you think that was a fitting end for him, or would you have preferred him to survive or what?"

I don't know. I didn't want him to stay Eugenie's little slave who has to send messages back and forth (urgh!) but I'm not sure what could have been a good end for him. I still don't get what exactly was so horrible about him but we never got real details about his past, did we? I mean, he was betrayed so I understand that he was pissed.

Lannister wrote: "And who wishes that he'd got his desire to destroy Eugenie's soul and cause her unending agony and whatever else he promised to do to her LOL!!"

*raises arm and jumps up and down*

Here! I want that!

I mean, Eugenie could get Kiyo back, right? Maybe Volusian can return and kill her. LOL

[Sarah ♥ dog crazy ♥ , Mircea's Moderatrix]

I can't see the pic, Duane.

[Susie]

Lannister wrote: "I did like Kiyo at the start when he was all open and honest that he wanted sex. But as I read on, I decided I liked Dorian better!

What do you all think about Volusian's demise? Do you think that..."

I kinda like the ending for Volusian. He got revenge on the true person he hated and is probably resting in peace with his love. I think the whole I hate Eug was probably (in the end) just to keep up appearances, I could be wrong but I think his true hatred was with the ones who cursed him and Eug was just an easy target to take his anger out on. I think he had fun fighting in battles for her. It gave him something to do in his boring existence.


EDIT

But obviously not the messenger duty lol no one wants that task no matter who they are!

[Lannister]

Duane, LMAO!! I'm terrified now! :D

Sarah/Susie, yeah, I'm not quite certain myself what would have been the best end for Volusian. It's not like he ceases to exist, since he continues on in Underworld. And I agree Susie, that whilst I don't think he liked Eugenie, and strongly resented being bound against his will (and who wouldn't!), I don't think he was opposed to everything she asked him to do. And, ultimately, it was Eugenie who helped him get his revenge. He wouldn't have been able to do that without her, so I feel that balances out the fact that she basically enslaved him.

It would have been interesting though if he'd overcome Eugenie just briefly, and we got to see her getting her ass soundly kicked!

[[deleted user]]

Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ wrote: "I can't see the pic, Duane."

This is a link to the pic - don't know why it doesn't show up for you. I'm no damn good at stuff like this!

http://photo.goodreads.com/photos/134...

If the link doesn't work, it's in my photos on GR - it's the only psycho-cat pic in the bunch!

[Lannister]

The pic showed for me Duane. I'm not sure why Sarah's not seeing it. Maybe some sort of firewall or anti-virus/malware blocking issue?

[Mello ❣ Illium ✮Harry✮ ☀Myrnin☀ Torin]

I can see it, too.

[Claire]

I never really paid too much attention to Volusian. I didn't hate him, but I didn't love him as a character either. I'm pretty sure Volusian's ending was the best one possible. He got his revenge, was at peace, and at the same time didn't get set loose to kill anyone else.

[Tangled]

I liked Volusian's ending too. I admit it would have been fun to see him kick Eugenie around though.

[Sarah ♥ dog crazy ♥ , Mircea's Moderatrix]

So what's your overall impression of the series? Would you recommend it? Why? Why not?

[Lannister]

You know, I probably would still recommend it, but with a warning that Eugenie's an idiot and the ending is somewhat open. There were a lot of good things going on in the series, and the worlds created were imaginative and interesting, plus there were a couple of nice twists. It's just a shame that the characterization let it down.

[Mello ❣ Illium ✮Harry✮ ☀Myrnin☀ Torin]

I would still recommend it as well. The whole thing isn't bad and while the characters can be frustrating, I still found the overall story interesting.

[Tangled]

I would recommend it to people who read a lot of Urban Fantasy and Paranormal Romance, but once the reader had finished reading it I would tell her all the same complaints I posted here. :)

[Sarah ♥ dog crazy ♥ , Mircea's Moderatrix]

I'm not sure if I would recommend it. I'd defo voice my dislike of Eugenie and the lack in writing but I'd also encourage the other person to try it and see for himself.

[Claire]

I don't know if I'd recommend it just because of the ending. It's so open and unsatisfying, I don't know if I'd want to do that to someone else. But I did and enjoy and seemed to like the characters more than average, so maybe I would.

[Sarah]

I'm in the minority that actually liked Eugenie. I mean she made mistakes, yeah, but so do a lot of people, Dorian included. I think people have a lot less understanding for female characters in books than male characters. Seems guys can be a total jerk, but if they are hot people like them. But people nitpick at any flaws in female characters and complain that they are a "MarySue" if they have no flaws. Rare an author can write a female people don't hate for being too perfect or too imperfect. It's a pet peeve of mine. And just knowing people in the real world are just as flawed makes me wonder why people are so exacting in their standards for females in fiction. I don't like if the character is a total b*tch but Eugenie didn't bug me. Outside the situation we can say I would have done this different but in a situation it's easier to make mistakes. I didn't like the ending to the series though. I can understand Eugenie's worries and considering leaving her kids even though I don't agree with that choice for many reasons. But a big problem is also her not telling Dorian. She understandably had issues with Dorian not being honest with her before and manipulating her and betraying her trust but they worked through it and now she is being dishonest. And he so wanted kids. That's a painful part of it to me. But she did think in the ending that she wouldn't be able to keep it from him so maybe she tells him. It's just such an open ending maybe because RM wants to write a spinoff?

[Claire]

Sarah wrote: "I'm in the minority that actually liked Eugenie. I mean she made mistakes, yeah, but so do a lot of people, Dorian included. I think people have a lot less understanding for female characters in bo..."

You have pretty much just summed up my feelings about Eugenie and then ending. Eugenie gets more heat than any other character in the series even though her bad decisions (ex. antibiotics and contraception) are less serious than other people's (i.e. Dorian starting a war, Kiyo trying to murder her, Leith turning into a rapist). Do I like everything that Eugenie does? Nope. Did I approve of her decision with her kids? Nope. But, she's a person. And fictional or not, people aren't perfect. In fact, I'd say most people are a hell of a lot stupider than Eugenie. (For example, at least she bothered with contraception. How many women her age can say the same?)

[Sarah]

Claire wrote: "Sarah wrote: "I'm in the minority that actually liked Eugenie. I mean she made mistakes, yeah, but so do a lot of people, Dorian included. I think people have a lot less understanding for female ch..."

Too true.

[Claire]

Yeah, I really wish we'd see a short story or something in this universe. It feels like RM just abandoned it.

[Mello ❣ Illium ✮Harry✮ ☀Myrnin☀ Torin]

Great post, Sarah.