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Richelle Mead Discussion
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LOL, yeah, now you mention it, we've never seen her during daylight hours!! ;)*eats some garlic*
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I kind of feel bad for those who love the series because I rant so much. Don't get me wrong, the world and some characters are great but Eugenie is so bad she ruins everything.
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I don't know where to start with my rant about the book, especially Eugenie.
Let me say that the saddest thing is that the world itself is intriguing. The gentry, the use of magic, the different species... But in my opinion RM didn't use the potential the series initially had.
Everything is very predictable. We get mentioned a dozen times how Lara and Tim don't like each other but haven't met. This made me fear that when they meet they'll fall in love. Guess what happened? They meet and become a couple. Since book one Eugenie using contraception was mentioned several times. Coincidence? No, because in this book she gets pregnant. I get back to that later. When Eugenie meets Enrique he mentions how he doesn't trust anyone to work for him. I thought: "Hell no, she (RM) won't have Lara work for him." But yes, she does later in the book. Same with Dorian granting Eugenie hospitality in the end. Boring!
The story also feels very contrived. Are Kiyo, Eugenie and Jasmine the only half-humans in the whole Otherworld and human realm? Why was Kiyo sent with her? I bet so that they could have sex. No other reason there. The book is full of those kind of plot devices.
Dorian... He's not my fave character of all time but I like him. However, I lost a lot of respect for him in that book. I don't understand how he could protect Eugenie in the end. I don't get why he would want her close at all. She is dumb, she cheated on him, she constantly accuses him of betraying her even though she is the one who did that... I cannot understand how anyone who likes him would want him to end up with Eugenie. He deserves better.
Eugenie is the one of the dumbest, most selfish, hypoctitic and annoying characters I've ever read about.
I already mentioned she cheated on Dorian. Not that I see any chemistry between them in the first place but in the book she constantly claims how she loves him. Then they have trouble, she "breaks up with him in her head" (LMFAO That is her excuse, I'm not kidding!!!) and fucks with Kiyo. She did the same in the previous books, only the other way around. How old is she??? 13??? I don't think she has a clue what love truely is and does not deserve any of the guys. Yes, this includes Kiyo. All she does is use them!
The sex... I always laugh when Eugenie says how she and Dorian do "kinky shit" and how they had "kinky oral sex"! Using a few ropes with a male who is a bit dominant and giving him a BJ is not kinky! Once again, how old is she? Because she sure has no clue about sex! Or maybe RM really thinks she is writing about some hardcore stuff her. But let me tell you, she is not!
I'm also annoyed how Eugenie constantly breaks her own 'promises'. She said she'd never let Dorian kiss her again. But she did. She never wanted to kill anyone with her power. Yet she choked several guys. She never wanted to use the Iron Crown but she does. It gets annoying!
She is a hypocrit. She didn't listen when Kiyo tried to prevent a war in the last book by not killing Leith. In the war that followed hundreds of innocent people died. Sure, she mentions that she feels bad about it but still is not willing to use all means (like the Crown) to end this as fast as possible. But then suddenly she makes a fuzz about the abortion where only ONE life has to be sacrificed for the sake of thousands or even millions. That's stupid!
Eugenie also thinks she is badass but she is not. She is just a dumb chick who - thanks to her daddy - has a lot of power. It's so sad that this power is not in the hands of a smart person. She also constantly uses others, often after she kicked them out of her life. Look at how she uses Kiyo and Dorian. Or her father. I was so mad when she ran to him at the end of the book and dragged him into her mess. I honestly wanted Kiyo to kill him just to make her pay for her stupidity. At one point she accuses Kiyo of talking to her like she is stupid or something and I had to laugh! I mean, she is stupid!!! Argh! I cannot understand how an author would write about such a character and expect readers to root for her.
Last but not least the pregnancy. Oh hell... First, it once again showed how fucking stupid Eugenie is. She didn't know antibiotics could interfer with the pill? Really?!?! Give me a break!!! But hey, she could have corrected that mistake by having an abortion which has always been her plan. Well, Eugenie the bitch changes her opinion once again which endangers the whole human world. She does not listen to Kiyo which made me so mad! She never listens to anyone and then when the shit hits the fan it's everyone else's fault but not hers. RM used another annoying plot device here. The babies are twins and guess what... They're a boy and a girl! Doesn't change the fact that there can only be one solution to that.
The only good thing is that Kiyo is the father. I love it that she has children from a male she now hates!!! Dorian as the father would be way to perfect and cliché.
I know many hate Kiyo for attacking her and it is a surprising reaction. But he tries to save mankind! I wonder if RM went that far with him because she wants her readers to dislike him. I still think he's one of the better characters.
I'm not sure why I gave the book 2 stars. But I'm generous and one is for the beaufiful Otherworld and one for my fave characters Volusian, Kiyo, Rurik and Shaya.
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@Sarah & Lannister Lol! My canines are pretty sharpy and pointy. *fangy grin*@Sarah I really like the series, but I don't mind your rants. I actually agree with a lot of the way you feel about Eugenie's character. I read books 1-3 last summer back-to-back and read the last one when it came out in December. That's when I realized how annoyed her character tended to make me.
Like I mentioned before, my problem with Kiyo wasn't so much his choice, but the way he went about it. I understand wanting to save mankind above all else, but there is no way to know for certain that that prophecy is true. Even for the good of mankind, I don't like that it is so easy for him to want his child never to be born or to kill the woman who is pregnant with his child (even if he doesn't love her) to prevent something from happening that no one is absolutely certain will actually happen.
As far as Eugenie with Dorian, I did want that at first. But then I read the last book and decided she doesn't deserve Dorian.
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I know the prophecy might not be true but it's the question if you want to risk that or not. It defo is a difficult situation, I know that. I wonder if anything about that will be mentioned in the last book.
Btw, I know many of you dislike Kiyo and I might be a bit biased since I like him. But to me his reaction seemed a bit too hardcore, kind of off-character. Pissed yeah but trying to kill her... Did anyone feel the same?
I did not dislike Kiyo before he went psycho. I had issues with him, but I had issues with all of them, except for Volusian because he was pretty much the only honest one there. I don't know why RM wrote him with such an extreme reaction when she decided not to go through with the abortion. That was crazy. Nothing about him suggested that he could react in such a way.
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http://razorbill.ning.com/page/richel...
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I'm glad I'm not the only one who was surprised. I thought maybe we'd get an explanation in the last book.
All of the characters in the book seem to be underdeveloped, and none of them seem to have a standard profile on how they react to situations. Volusian was the only one who seemed to stay in character probably because he, like the rest of us, just wanted to kill Eugenie.
My dislike of all the characters (excepting the demon) is legendary, but my particular dislike for Kiyo stems from two main issues:
1) He is too beholden to Maiwen, and would do whatever she asked of him without thought or reservation (proof is his completely insane attack on Eugenie when she decides on no abortion - I don't think that he is intelligent enough to come up with something like this on his own).
2)The fact that the first time he slept with her, which was the first time they met (hell, even I'm not that easy - just ask anyone!), he marked her so Maiwen could keep track of her; that's the start of a tainted relationship, being deceitful right from the start. It's obvious sex was the driving force in this alleged relationship, and thus it was doomed to failure. To expect Eugenie not to be deceitful in return is disingenuous.
And, as I've stated before, Kiyo's "throw her down in the bushes and knock the bottom out of that thing" shows absolutely zero respect for Eugenie; the fact she puts up with it shows she has zero respect for herself.
Oh, and where the hell's the rest of his tails? Is he so low on the Maiwen totem-pole that he is doomed to one tail for eternity? Please.
(view spoiler)
Aside from all my views, the series had potential, and I liked a lot of the "world" and its potential - its too bad the characters fell short.
My dislike of all the characters (excepting the demon) is legendary, but my particular dislike for Kiyo stems from two main issues:
1) He is too beholden to Maiwen, and would do whatever she asked of him without thought or reservation (proof is his completely insane attack on Eugenie when she decides on no abortion - I don't think that he is intelligent enough to come up with something like this on his own).
2)The fact that the first time he slept with her, which was the first time they met (hell, even I'm not that easy - just ask anyone!), he marked her so Maiwen could keep track of her; that's the start of a tainted relationship, being deceitful right from the start. It's obvious sex was the driving force in this alleged relationship, and thus it was doomed to failure. To expect Eugenie not to be deceitful in return is disingenuous.
And, as I've stated before, Kiyo's "throw her down in the bushes and knock the bottom out of that thing" shows absolutely zero respect for Eugenie; the fact she puts up with it shows she has zero respect for herself.
Oh, and where the hell's the rest of his tails? Is he so low on the Maiwen totem-pole that he is doomed to one tail for eternity? Please.
(view spoiler)
Aside from all my views, the series had potential, and I liked a lot of the "world" and its potential - its too bad the characters fell short.
Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ wrote: "Here's a reading and Q&A with Richelle Mead. At 22:40 she answers if there'll be more Dark Swan books. http://razorbill.ning.com/page/richel..."
Thanks for that. I'll check this out when I get home.
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If you want to say Kiyo is easy, I hope you mean Eugenie the slut is as well.
Duane wrote: "shows absolutely zero respect for Eugenie; the fact she puts up with it shows she has zero respect for herself."
I'm sorry but an annoying, selfish, hypocritic bitch like Eugenie doesn't deserve any respect. I think it's sad that both guys put up with someone like her. Well, at least Kiyo is safe from her now I hope.
Duane wrote: "Oh, and where the hell's the rest of his tails? Is he so low on the Maiwen totem-pole that he is doomed to one tail for eternity? Please."
I'm not sure RM knows about the meaning of the tails.
Sarah, what is your example of a good female main character?Eugenie is seriously stupid in Iron Crowned. (I have not gotten to book 4.) The whole book I felt very silly/unbelievable things kept happening. Something else that spoiled it for me was I felt like Mead was up on her soapbox about the abortion issue. (I am not generally pleased when an author does this. It brings *gasp* reality in the story & thus pisses me off. Regardless of if I agree w/ the stance or not.)
& being part of the pharmacy industry I felt like the whole "antibiotics got me preggers" thing was dumb as hell.
@Sarah - Dammit - I meant to have a spoiler there - what a buffoon I am! Just wipe that tid-bit from your memory! I'd kick myself in the ass but I'm just not that flexible. (Would it be too much to ask to have you eradicate that Volusian fact from your post? Maybe others haven't seen it yet - I don't want to be grouped in with Eugenie in stupidity, although in this case I obviously am).
To clarify - I wasn't saying Kiyo was easy - I was saying Eugenie was easy - I'm not sure I would call her a slut per-say, maybe a girl of loose virtues or poor judgement? Kiyo just took the little kitty that was offered him and buffed it.
To clarify - I was saying that perhaps if Eugenie had any respect for herself that maybe the relationship with Kiyo might have had a chance. Of course, I doubt it as Kiyo wasn't there for a relationship with Eugenie - he already had one going with Maiwen. It just goes to show that if Eugenie had had any self-respect, she would have cut him loose when she found out he fathered a child with Maiwen and was still seeing her.
Believe me, I don't think Kiyo is the cause of Eugenie's problem, but I don't think he is the solution, either.
To clarify - I wasn't saying Kiyo was easy - I was saying Eugenie was easy - I'm not sure I would call her a slut per-say, maybe a girl of loose virtues or poor judgement? Kiyo just took the little kitty that was offered him and buffed it.
To clarify - I was saying that perhaps if Eugenie had any respect for herself that maybe the relationship with Kiyo might have had a chance. Of course, I doubt it as Kiyo wasn't there for a relationship with Eugenie - he already had one going with Maiwen. It just goes to show that if Eugenie had had any self-respect, she would have cut him loose when she found out he fathered a child with Maiwen and was still seeing her.
Believe me, I don't think Kiyo is the cause of Eugenie's problem, but I don't think he is the solution, either.
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There aren't many likeable female characters out there in my opinion. But some I like are Kate Daniels (Kate Daniels series), Mary (Black Dagger Brotherhood series) and Tabitha (Dark Hunter series).
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Don't worry too much. I personally love spoilers. But it's sad because I love (view spoiler). He's by far the best character in the series.
Duane wrote: "Believe me, I don't think Kiyo is the cause of Eugenie's problem, but I don't think he is the solution, either."
The only solution to Eugenie's problems is a bullet.
Harsh. I don't think Eugenie is a "slut" (meaning a woman with many casual lovers). I think she is fickle (meaning easily changeable). She doesn't seem prone to contemplation. Since she doesn't think much about what is happening around her or the consequences of her choices, she jumps from one option to the other based on whatever she may feel at the moment.
LOL sarah I like your rants!I also don't think Eugenie is a slut, but rereading and seeing everyone's reaction, I can see why people don't like her. I really have no problem with her. I do agree that RM has problem with characters/relationships. I think she has great world ideas, but the follow through is . . . ehhh.
That video was interesting though! (view spoiler)
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Sarah, don't feel bad about ranting. There are many times I like a story or characters, but one character annoys me--and often that is the main character. You should have heard me during season 8 of BtVS (I had stopped liking Buffy and only watched for Spike). Maybe I identity with the protagonist too much and get annoyed when they do no act as I would act (although I have no problem with those who act better than I would). My most common complaint is "But that's stupid--why would anyone do that?" Alas readers, unlike actresses, cannot call a time out and question motivation. Actually, we do question. That's what these forums are for. I say rant on, as long as you are civil (and you are).
Sarah, that is a top class rant and I applaud! :)My biggest problem with Eugenie is the way she swings from one choice to another, and you mention this in your rant too, Sarah. It's not just that she swears she loves one guy, then two weeks later she swears she loves another. It's all her other decisions too, like saying she doesn't want more power, then going after more power. Saying she'll never kill with power, then killing. Hell, even in the first book, she swore she'd stay out of Otherworld, then she ends up queen there. Twice! I'll give her a pass on changing her mind on the abortion, cos that is a difficult choice and women do often change their minds. If that was the only thing she changed her mind about, I wouldn't judge her at all, but every book gives her a new set of opinions that contradict everything she stood for before. That's what's so frustrating.
I can't in all fairness call her a slut. I think Tangled has it right. She's fickle, shallow and has no concept of commitment and working through issues with a partner. Basically she's foolish and immature, but if she wants to sleep with a guy, who am I to judge?
I think my problems with the series boil down to the shortcomings of the author's writing. I too loved the world and how each land was shaped by its ruler. And the idea of the three worlds - our world, Otherworld and Underworld - was imaginative. But there were so many obvious plot devices just to move the story forward. I hate it when authors try to make their characters reasonably smart (and not many authors deliberately write a dumb MC), but then this supposedly intelligent person doesn't see what's right in front of their nose. Stuff that is blindingly obvious to even the most inattentive reader is completely overlooked by the lead character, so that they can have a big revelation about it somewhere down the line. Like Dorian and the Iron Crown for example. I think it was fairly obvious after the first book that Dorian was a tricksy kind of guy who shouldn't be completely trusted. Yet Eugenie takes him at his word when he encourages her to go get the Iron Crown. This is only so that she can be suitably shocked when she discovers Dorian had an ulterior motive. What, honest, reliable, salt-of-the-earth Dorian? Oh surely not!! That's just crappy writing and it almost insults the reader that we're supposed to believe in it. Why not just have Eugenie wander about with a bag over her head, cos then she'd have an excuse for her wilful blindness.
I've finished the series now, but I'll write my thoughts about the ending of the fourth book in a separate post (this one's long enough already!) But to finish on Sarah's question about whether I wanted Eugenie to end up with Dorian, well, I suppose I did. I think I wanted that because HE wanted it. I liked Dorian. He was intelligent, funny and caring, but he wasn't afraid to go after what he wanted. There is a part of me though that wonders how attracted he would be to her if she wasn't the queen of two Otherworld lands and the Storm King's daughter. If she was just Eugenie, a nobody from Tuscon, I don't think he'd have paid much attention to her. Her power was a big part of her appeal, in my opinion, though I doubt Eugenie realised that. So I suppose there would be a certain symmetry in calculating Dorian and easily led Eugenie ending up together.
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I don't mind people sleeping around in books, we have enough guys in PNR who do that. But it depends on the reasoning. Look at Eugenie... She's soooooooooooooo in love with Dorian (not that I feel that), then he does something she should expect, she "breaks up with him in her head" (this is so bad, I want to puke while writing it) and this gives her an excuse to sleep with Kiyo. Sorry but this is a big WTF to me! You can be a slut while only sleeping with two guys.
Lannister wrote: "I think my problems with the series boil down to the shortcomings of the author's writing."
I love everything you said in that paragraph!
Lannister wrote: "If she was just Eugenie, a nobody from Tuscon, I don't think he'd have paid much attention to her."
I think so too. Why should Dorian want an average-looking idiot when he can have nearly any woman he wants?
I see what you're saying about the slut thing. It's not about how many guys she sleeps with; it's about her cheating and her disloyalty, and yeah, that is a problem. A 'nice girl' wouldn't do that. Dorian wasn't exactly spoiled for choice, though the fact he dated that Ysabelle shows he's got lousy taste in women! It was definitely Eugenie's power that was the big aphrodisiac, rather than Eugenie herself.
I will try to write up my book four thoughts tonight. And Kiyo and Eugenie are going to take a bashing!! :D
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I'm not surprised that Kiyo and Eugenie will take a bashing in your book 4 write up. They both pissed me off in that book.If I hadn't been reading that book on my lovely new kindle fire, I probably would have thrown it when I was done with it.
LOL @ Mello. It's sad that you can't punish ebooks by throwing them or putting them in the freezer. On the plus side, no one can burn ebooks (well, I guess they can, but it's stupid--more so than usual). If it didn't violate intellectual property rights, I'd try to make video games for ebook readers who want to punish avatars of characters who really need a good tomato in the face.
I wish you could do that, too. There are several characters I'd love to beat up Mortal Kombat style.
@Lannister I'm anxiously awaiting your review of book 4 =p (In all seriousness though, I do want to hear what you think of it)As for Eugenie being a slut, I honestly don't think she is. She makes bad decisions, sure. But to me, being a slut implies sleeping around on someone you care about and not giving a damn if it hurts them or not- simply because you felt like it. The so-called mental break up that Eugenie had with Dorian is a bunch of bullshit. I would love the opportunity to ask RM what the hell she was thinking while writing something so incredibly dumb. But, bad writing aside, Eugenie the person really didn't intend to hurt Dorian and felt badly when she did.
Throughout Iron Crowned I did want to punch Eugenie in the face and yell "wake up!" at the top of my lungs. To not expect a king to have ulterior motives is naive, plain and simple. I think he honestly cares for her, but that doesn't change the fact that thousands of people rely on Dorian for their safety and well-being. It would be unreasonable for Eugenie to expect Dorian to disregard that just because he likes her. I also thought Eugenie's intensely betrayed reaction was blow way out of proportion and saw it for exactly what it was: a plot device, and not a very clever one at that.
I will always and forever hate Kiyo. There is pretty much nothing, save his death, that can redeem him in my eyes. His actions were deceitful, cruel and borderline psychotic. I really wish Eugenie would pick Dorian and stick with him.
I blame a lot of my dissatisfaction with the characters on RM's poor writing, and that she seemed to have been forced to end the series ahead of time. However, (I think I mentioned this before) I read her Vampire Academy series, made it to book 3 and quit. RM is guilty of having her characters do very stupid and out of character things to further her plot. Eventually, the story line of that YA series got too absurd for me to continue reading.
Basically, I can't dislike Eugenie because the blame for all of her seemingly irrational decisions can be laid at RM's feet. Kiyo, I can dislike because his actions haven't sat right with me from the start.(view spoiler)
Ah, Claire, a lot of what you just wrote is exactly how I ended up feeling about this series.
Ummmm... @Tangled, I really like that idea of the avatars. :DMy 1st pick of a book character who would get a tomato in the face would be Elana from Vampire Diaries. Holy night, I dislike her!!
I didn't get the chance to write up my thoughts on Book 4 last night, but I'll try to get to it tonight.Claire, I love everything you wrote above. It's very well put.
Claire, everything you said! I don't blame Eugenie, I blame RM! lol :)
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Btw, can anyone explain to me why suddenly everything is fine between Eugenie and Roland??? If I were him, I'd be even more pissed at her after the last book.
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I really think it's a beautiful place but then... I think there are some things I like about our world like modern medicine or plumbing. That was mentioned and I was wondering what kind of toilets the gentry have. LOL
I wouldn't if only because of the technology that I would miss. Tech doesn't do well in fairieland (and fairies don't do well around it), so I don't suppose you could bring any in.I have no idea why Eugenie and Roland made up so easily. I guess he still felt the need to protect his daughter.
Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ wrote: "Would you like to live in the Otherworld?
I really think it's a beautiful place but then... I think there are some things I like about our world like modern medicine or plumbing. That was mentione..."
The gentry have all the latest in toilet convenience. They have a serf with a shovel and a rag; the serf digs a hole, then waits until the gentry is done so he can wipe their ass. He then flings the rag in the hole, and "flushes" it with shovels full of dirt. LOL! Who else but you would even wonder about fae toilets (maybe they don't have to crap, kind of like a vampire), although I am curious about the shower arrangements! ;-)
Good one, Sarah, and I'm still waiting on your "series" rant.
I really think it's a beautiful place but then... I think there are some things I like about our world like modern medicine or plumbing. That was mentione..."
The gentry have all the latest in toilet convenience. They have a serf with a shovel and a rag; the serf digs a hole, then waits until the gentry is done so he can wipe their ass. He then flings the rag in the hole, and "flushes" it with shovels full of dirt. LOL! Who else but you would even wonder about fae toilets (maybe they don't have to crap, kind of like a vampire), although I am curious about the shower arrangements! ;-)
Good one, Sarah, and I'm still waiting on your "series" rant.
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Yeah, I can even see Dorian having some poor guy wiping his ass. LOL
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@Lannister, Zeenat, Mello: Thanks! I appreciate the fact that you all bothered to read that, given how long it was.@Sarah: No worries, I wondered about the toilet arrangement too. The conclusion I came to has made me glad I don't live in the Otherworld.
I can live without most technology and showers, but no toilets are a deal breaker!
I would absolutely hate to live without indoor plumbing. I read these surveys every now and then that talk about the greatest inventions of mankind and stuff like that, and lately the internet is right up there. Now, I'm a complete internet addict. I *adore* it and spend way more time than I should on it. But ... if it came to a choice between the web and a flushing toilet, there is really no contest.I would *hate* to live without a toilet. I could get by with baths, though I prefer a shower, but lack of a toilet is a no-no. Even with a flunky to wipe your bum! (And I love Duane's description of a 'flushing' toilet LMAO!)
Nope, it's got to be the modern world for me.
Lannister wrote: "I would absolutely hate to live without indoor plumbing. I read these surveys every now and then that talk about the greatest inventions of mankind and stuff like that, and lately the internet is r..."Exactly this.
That's pretty much how I feel. Most of the time I spend on the computer is reading anyway, and I've gotten used to not having a tv in college. I'd miss the ease of research the internet gives me, but that's it. I think the hardest thing to live without, besides a toilet, would be kitchen appliances. That and telephones. Could you imagine having to send a messenger or a letter every time you wanted to tell someone something?
I hate telephones - I have one but unless I see it's the wife on the other end I won't answer it. I would not answer the wife's calls either, but she knows where I live!
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As for the kitchen appliances... It depends if you're royalty or a peasant.
As far as telephones go, I'm one of those people that doesn't mind being reachable. If I really don't want to talk to someone, I don't. But I feel better knowing that my friends and family can always get to me if they need to. For the kitchen, I'm Italian. It's kind of the center of my home. I make dinner for the family every night and have big family gatherings every Sunday. Plus, I'm a big baker. I'd go crazy without an oven that had an easily controlled temperature.
@Claire - Duane lifts phone, orders pizza! (Just kidding! I drive up and order it!) ;-)
If you enjoy cooking then kitchen appliances make sense. Me? I can eat chicken noodle soup out of a can and it's all the same to me. No need to even heat it up - it was cooked before they put it in the can!
And if my family deigns to call me, then it's most likely something I don't want to hear. Like they plan to come over and visit. NOOOOOOOOOOOO!
If you enjoy cooking then kitchen appliances make sense. Me? I can eat chicken noodle soup out of a can and it's all the same to me. No need to even heat it up - it was cooked before they put it in the can!
And if my family deigns to call me, then it's most likely something I don't want to hear. Like they plan to come over and visit. NOOOOOOOOOOOO!
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Iron Crowned (other topics)Iron Crowned (other topics)
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Still, my house would have blinds so that I could close them against the sun.
Sun! *hisses*