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Richelle Mead Discussion
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Mello ❣ Illium ✮Harry✮ ☀Myrnin☀ Torin
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Jul 02, 2012 07:44AM
I so can't wait for you guys to get to that part.
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Mello luvs Gin, Illium, Myrnin & Jaqen H'ghar wrote: "I so can't wait for you guys to get to that part."Ditto.
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*Gets Popcorn and waits for fireworks*
I'm about 30~% in. Teeny tiny spoiler ahead.Eugenie's just been given a dose of antibiotics. Isn't it the case that certain antibiotics interfere with the pill (or is that just an urban myth?) Not that I'm drawing wild conclusions from the most innocuous events or anything!! :D
It's really hard to guess about what happens with Eugenie and her possible offspring. I usually guess the ending way ahead of time but I didn't see this one coming.
@ Lannister that is not a myth. This is educational. We should be able to write it off on our taxes.
Lmao Tangled!@Lannister Even with that little tidbit, I never saw exactly what was coming.
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Oh hell, don't tell me stupid Eugenie doesn't know that!!!
Right, I'm just over 50% now.I'm finding Eugenie's flip-flopping between her guys a bit ridiculous to be honest. In the first couple of books, it was all Love Love Love for Kiyo, with some Lust for Dorian on the side, which was fine. Then she and Kiyo break up at the end of book two. But at the start of book three, she's immediately all Love Love Love for Dorian. I had to do a kind of mental adjustment cos it was Dorian that she was obsessing over now. Even though I went straight from book two to book three, there was a tiny part of me that thought I'd missed something because she was suddenly head over heels about Dorian, and like two chapters earlier, it was all about Kiyo.
But now that I'm half way along, she's slept with Kiyo again cos she's furious that Dorian's tricked her over the purpose of the Iron Crown. Yet, she knew Dorian was tricksy. I haven't read any further than the sex scene, so maybe she'll get next day remorse or something, but she's saying now that she still has all these feelings for Kiyo.
I can't make sense of this. If she'd been having many inner monologues about how much she missed Kiyo, it would be understandable, but her feelings seem to swing like a pendulum from one guy to the other, with no pause for introspection in between. I'm starting to think that Eugenie is really shallow and has no idea what love is.
Maybe it's supposed to represent the conflict between her two natures (her human side and her otherworld side), but she just comes across as indecisive and easily led at best and uncaring about anyone else's feelings at worst. Why the hell did she just take Dorian at his word about the crown? It was beyond obvious that there was more to it. I mean, telling your beloved to go off on a dangerous quest (oh, and take your ex boyfriend with you) to collect this ancient artefact, and hey everyone will fall at your feet at the mere sight of it. And Eugenie just says, 'Sure thing, lover boy, I'm on my way'
Dumb, dumb, dumb!
Lannister, at least it's the same two guys. One thing you have to say for Eugene--she recycles!
Lmao Tangled!@Lannister That is one of the most frustrating things about the series. She never seemed to actually get over one guy before she went to the next one. I'm not convinced she ever really loved either of them. Richelle Mead really didn't make a very likable character when it came to Eugenie.
Tangled, LOL! I don't think I could have handled it if a third guy was introduced (and I was wondering where it would go when Leith was introduced at the start)Mello, yeah, you've got it exactly when you say she never gets over one before launching into things with the next. She needs to be on her own for a while to decide what she really wants. She's made out to be this tough and independent woman, so maybe she should try being one, and concentrate on ruling the Thorn Land or doing her job in Arizona, instead of jumping back and forth between two guys.
You know, the more I think about it, the more I think Richelle Mead is too much of a YA author. That's her strength, and the relationship jumping is very "teenagery".
@Lannister Agreed. She never really tried to put any real distance between herself and Dorian or Kiyo. They could have still been allies without her sleeping with them both so much. She had much bigger things to worry about.@Zeenat I have to say I agree with you, too. Her YA series are not so bad and I did enjoy both of her adult series, I don't think I would be willing to read another one written by her.
Mello luvs Gin, Illium, Myrnin & Jaqen H'ghar wrote: "They could have still been allies without her sleeping with them both so much."Agreed. Eugenie was too valuable an ally for Dorian to alienate, even if she didn't want to sleep with him. She could have shown him just enough interest and respect to keep him on her side, and he would probably think that he had a good chance of winning her over in the future. Hell, even if she'd slept with him just for the hell of it (as the gentry seem to do) without swearing undying love, it would have been fine with me. It's her protestations of love that bug me. Love isn't a switch that you flick on and off!
Zeenat wrote: "You know, the more I think about it, the more I think Richelle Mead is too much of a YA author. That's her strength, and the relationship jumping is very "teenagery"."
That's a fair point and I hadn't considered that. If she was a sixteen year old 'in love' with one guy this week and another guy next week, I'd just roll my eyes and remind myself this is why I don't read much YA. But she's supposed to be a strong woman and a frigging queen! Richelle Mead can't have it both ways.
If Eugenie's relationships were all about purely sex and lust, I'd be fine with it. But authors don't seem to want their characters to be perceived as 'slutty', so it's OK to bang any old thing so long as you're 'in love'. I think much less of Eugenie for her shallow attempts at love than I would if she were just sleeping with a guy for no other reason than because he was hot. At least that's honest.
If she had just slept with either of them without claiming she's in love with them, I would have been alright with her having sex with them without serious relationships. That definitely wasn't a problem for the gentry, like you said, but authors do seem to have a problem with their characters coming across as slutty a lot of the time.
We see it in real life all the time; why should we expect a character in a book to be above this sort of behavior? The fact is, everyone in the books were dumb as rocks, with the exception of Volusian, and they all had their own agenda.
@Lannister Eugenie's indecisiveness when it comes to Kiyo and Dorian really bugged me too. I HATED that she just jumped into [the proverbial] bed with Kiyo simply because she was upset with Dorian. I agree that it may be RM's YA tendencies showing through- it's a very childish thing to do: you hurt me, so screw you instead of talking I'm going to run into the arms of someone else. I think that Eugenie is just in serious lust for Kiyo. She never took time to cultivate a relationship with him; all their interactions were based on the first time they slept together. Sex alone a relationship does not make.
On the other hand, I think she could honestly love Dorian. Eugenie got to know him first before they started dating. She knows that even if they aren't together, Dorian has her back. He may be devious, but she can trust him to be there for her, and that counts for a lot. I think it's possible that Eugenie keeps running away from Dorian because she realizes she might love him, and Eugenie still isn't okay with the gentry side of her pedigree. And, based off the way her only family treated her because of it, I can't blame her. That doesn't excuse Eugenie's behavior- I still think it was stupid and immature. But, I think there's a deeper reason for it rather than Eugenie being unable to make up her mind.
Duane wrote: "We see it in real life all the time; why should we expect a character in a book to be above this sort of behavior? The fact is, everyone in the books were dumb as rocks, with the exception of Volus..."You have a point. Another author pointed that out the other day when some people must have been complaining about her characters. Even though I know there are people that act this stupid in real life, it still frustrates me to read about characters like this.
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Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ wrote: "There are enough dumb people I have to deal with in RL so I'd like for my book heroes/heroines to have at least a certain amount of intelligence."Here, here!
I don't think protagonists should be "Mary Sues" because that would be boring, but I also don't like it when they are too dumb for their training and experience, or stupid just to further the plot and not because it is a part of their basic character. I am also not found of the "Love makes you stupid" trope. Everyone has flaws, and a person should act in character. On the other hand, if a character is always too stupid to live in the type of environment they find themselves in, then that character should die or leave. I don't think there is anything wrong with lust, or with being a bit blind to a hot man's faults for a while. However, there comes a point where the ghost of Anne Landers starts screaming at a woman to wake up and smell the coffee. Once you know the games being played around you, you have to be smarter.
I'm about 70+ per cent in now and yup, Eugenie's got herself knocked up. I was right about those antibiotics! :)Tangled, I agree with what you're saying. My biggest peeve is when characters aren't consistent. When they preach one thing all book, then go completely against that just to move the plot forward. And no-one seems to notice! No-one pulls up the character on their u-turn or points out their hypocrisy.
It annoys the hell out of me when characters behave, well, out-of character in order to move the plot forward. That's just plain bad writing.
Can't wait to hear your reaction to the end of the book.
I have to agree, there were definitely some moments in this book when I thought "Eugenie, are you serious?" And those moments were out of character. Then again, I've read some of RM's Vampire Academy books (stopped after book 3 'cause they sucked) and those characters did similar things. Mead is guilty of writing her characters into stupid actions just to further plot. I've never considered her to be the most fantastic author, either.
Lannister! I can't wait for you to read the last book now!
Yeah, I think I'm going to start it straight away. I don't normally do that, but I'm having so much fun talking about the series with everyone. None of my friends really read books like these, so it's great to be able to share my thoughts and discuss them to death!!
Lannister wrote: "Yeah, I think I'm going to start it straight away. I don't normally do that, but I'm having so much fun talking about the series with everyone. None of my friends really read books like these, so i..."I feel the same way because I also have no one to talk to about the books I read. I have been holding back from saying too much because what I really want to talk about is the ending so I can't wait for everyone to catch up either!
That's the best part of goodreads, talking about books!! :)
I do agree with you Lannister that Eugenie is the one that changed her mind, but Kiyo's attitude about it is what bugged me the most.Like Zeenat, I can't wait for you to read the end of the series.
Mello, I certainly think Kiyo should have been more sympathetic to Eugenie. She didn't deliberately set out to get pregnant (even if she should have realised what was going on) and the idea of abortion is pretty traumatic in the normal course of events, never mind when you've got the destroyer of mankind growing inside you! All he could think about was that Eugenie had to get rid of the child, instead of trying to be a bit more sympathetic and trying to gently persuade her.I'm wondering what's going to happen in the next book. I'm thinking there's definitely going to assassination attempts against Eugenie (maybe that assassin woman Immanuelle?? might reappear - but on the wrong side). I don't know if the other kingdoms would want to risk all out war against Eugenie since she's got the crown and can basically take their kingdoms away from them, but I think Maiwenn & Kivo will definitely be on opposite sides to Dorian and Eugenie.
That's it exactly. While she seriously messed up and completely changed her mind on the abortion issue (I can't really blame her. Once in the situation, feelings change), he didn't even try to be reasonable about it. It was straight to the make an appointment and then the (view spoiler) That bothered me. He has his daughter that he loves so much and he expects her to just be all, "okay!" about it? People change their minds about abortion all the time once they actually get pregnant and can't go through with it even if they agreed to do it at some point. I know why he feels it's the right thing to do and he isn't entirely wrong. It was the way he went about it that made me hate him. There's something he says at the end of Shadow Heir that made me hate him even more despite some of his actions in that book that weren't so bad, but he did them for the greater good. Kiyo is definitely one of those for the greater good people. Not a bad thing, but not everyone can give up something so precious for the greater good.
I thought Kiyo's actions were totally out of line. He acted completely cold toward Eugenie. An abortion is the type of action no one can choose for another person, and it made me furious that Kiyo would even try. It's easy for Kiyo to try and force Eugenie into the course of action he sees as right- he doesn't have to live with the consequences of that decision as intimately as Eugenie does. I can also see why Eugenie would change her mind. Now she isn't sacrificing the dream of having one child, she's sacrificing two. I think Eugenie may have stuck with her original plan if the other child wasn't a girl. But I can't blame Eugenie for not wanting to give up a daughter just because her son may or may not be evil.Kiyo is a stubborn, inconsiderate, pigheaded ass. It's his way or no way and that's not alright. He's been in Maiwenn's back pocket this entire series. I find it hard to believe he truly cares for Eugenie.
@Lannister when you read the next book you'll see why Kiyo is so willing to sacrifice his unborn children and it'll probably make you even angrier (I know it pissed me off even more)
Mello and Claire, yeah, you both make good points. Ultimately abortion is the woman's choice (which is why I get so furious about male legislators dictating what women can do with their bodies), and Kiyo should have respected that. It is a bit hypocritical of him to go on about how beautiful his daughter is and how much she's changed his life, and then to deny Eugenie the same chance (although the stakes are a little higher in her case).It's one of those hideously difficult situations that could be discussed in a philosophy class, like if you were strongly anti-abortion, but were somehow able to travel back in time and abort Hitler (or other evil dictator of your choice), would you do it? There are no easy answers, but I think you guys are saying it was more about the heartless way Kiyo treated Eugenie, rather than the abortion itself. And I agree with you, but I also think I can almost see Maiwenn pulling Kiyo's strings behind the scenes as he tries to force Eugenie where she doesn't want to go.
I'm going to start Shadow Heir today and since it's absolutely chucking it down here, I don't think I'm venturing over the door again today, so expect lots of reading!
Exactly, Lannister. It was about the way he treated her. The minute she decides she can't go through with it, he turns into a psycho! I definitely see Maiwenn pulling his strings, she is after all, the one who pushed him in Eugenie's direction from go in the first place. Still, he reacted so violently, his own feelings played a part, too.Like Claire, Kiyo's reason for being so heartless once revealed in Shadow Heir pissed me off and made me hate him even more.
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Can't wait to hear your reactions.
That's why I got so mad. Kiyo goes on and on about his daughter with Maiwenn, and then goes berserk on Eugenie. Besides, no one even knew if the prophesy was true. So Kiyo then expects Eugenie to give up what might be her only chance at motherhood because of what might happen, and that's not okay. He had no regard whatsoever for how hard that kind of decision would be for Eugenie. Instead, Maiwenn told him what had to go down and Kiyo rushed to obey. And that's twice as problematic, since Eugenie has her own kingdom to run and Kiyo is actively undermining that.
Exactly, how I felt about it. Hit the nail on the head.
I also think it would bother me less if I felt it was kiyo's own opinion outside of Maiewenn. But his opinions are not his own, it's usually hers.
This is one of the reasons why I'm so frustrated with where the series ended. There were so many things left open. For example, what happens with Kiyo and Maiwenn politically? Personally, I think that Eugenie should take advantage of the Iron Crown and lay down the law with Maiwenn. Maiwenn's capacity for trouble would be greatly reduced if she didn't have a kingdom or army to back it up! But mostly, I just want to find out what happens between Eugenie and Dorian (but that is a rant for another time).
@Zeenat Too true. I don't doubt that he agrees with Maiwenn, but it's her agenda he always acts on.@Claire Same here. I can't stand that open ending. Nothing was resolved and it feels like Maiwenn got away with something.
I am not too sure about taking Maiwenn's queendom because I believe she is good to her people so they would NOT take kindly to Eug de-crowning their queen. And Maiwenn might be able to keep her soldiers because of the loyalty and cause even more trouble. And lets not forget her power, if the Iron crown does not strip her power that could prove to be a problem.
Plus, after all the trouble with the crown, I think eugenie would be hard pressed to use it
She wouldn't use it again. Doing it would likely cause them all more problems. I do wish there could have been some conclusion where Maiwenn was dealt with, but I don't know what could have happened to bring that about, short of killing her.
@Mello I just feel like Maiwenn almost got away murder. It just annoyed me that Maiwenn was allowed to threaten Eugenie's people and Eugenie didn't take steps against her. As for Maiwenn being too kind to her people, I don't know. I think the actions that Maiwenn was willing to take against Eugenie and her family prove that she isn't as benevolent as she seems.
That's how I feel about it, too because of that open ending.
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