Karen Chance Fans discussion
This topic is about
Richelle Mead
Book Corner
>
Richelle Mead Discussion
I had forgotten what happened after Eugenie was raped. It didn't take very long for her to fall back into bed with someone. The Eugenie hate in this thread is killing me. I don't remember liking her that much when I originally read the series, but I don't remember finding her that horrible. This is amusing, though.
Mod
I'm sorry about me hating Eugenie so much, Mello. But she is really ruining the whole series for me which is very sad since the world and the other characters are pretty interesting.
Mello, I like Eugenie. I don't think she is a "slut". Yeah she makes bad decisions because of her attractions, but I think it is more than just sex. It is a representation of her two worlds and her being torn. I was with Eugenie and Dorian for killing Leith, hated Kiyo for being all practical about it. Some decisions are worth the emotion :) Plus it's all hypocritical when you consider what happens in the next book.
I don't think Eugenie also got over her rape "quickly." One of the problems I have with RM's writing style is that she doesn't do a good job of "time management". It doesn't feel like a long time has passed by when it really had. She didn't want anyone to touch her, not even Dorian at first. But unlike Kiyo, he was able to give her the time and space he needed. I think in the (view spoiler).
Mod
I don't see that at all but this could be due to RM's lack of writing skills. Like I said in my comment about Thorn Queen, she is not good at selling certain plot lines and emotions.
Zeenat wrote: "She didn't want anyone to touch her, not even Dorian at first."
Maybe I missed something but didn't she return to the Otherworld, Dorian shows up, they talk like 10 minutes and then have sex?
As for the time that passed... I think it says 'one week' and then suddenly 'weeks'. Only thinking about that makes me mad!
Sorry I just keep jumping into random threads, but I don't see them when they start, and then they seem interesting so...Anyway, I got the impression that it took Eugenie a while to get over what happened with Leith and be close to Dorian.
I really, really don't like Kiyo. Even without taking into account what happens in Thorn Queen (and after that) he never seemed like a good person to me. It felt like he was too controlling of Eugenie, kind of like he wanted to own her instead of just be with her. What do you all think?
Yeah Sarah, I have huge issues with RM's writing skills. When I first read the series, I was a newbie to the UF world, but when I reread it, my head hurt on how bad it was. I think they did talk for a short time, but she shied away from him at first. But their conversation made her comfortable enough to move forward.
It had to have been at least a few weeks after conception, because of the pregnancy test. and she was still home after that.
Claire wrote: "Sorry I just keep jumping into random threads, but I don't see them when they start, and then they seem interesting so...Anyway, I got the impression that it took Eugenie a while to get over what..."
yes I can't stand Kiyo's controllingness. Dorian (view spoiler). LOL I wrote a blog about controlling men yesterday: http://zeenatkwon.wordpress.com/
Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ wrote: "The rape thing really bothers me. I know everyone deals differently with that experience but it seems to be normal in certain book genres that the heroines get over it in the blink of an eye. Worst..."But in the fever series if you are talking about her becoming Priya or how ever you spell it, and it has been a while since I read the books so I may be wrong, (view spoiler)
any way I liked Eugenie well enough, I don't expect characters to be perfect and never make mistakes or bad choices, if that was the case then I don't think the books would be very entertaining. I didn't necessarily see her as a slut because it wasn't just about sex, she truly loved both of them. After the rape, I don't think it was that soon, but I think part of it was time constraint, in a book like this you can't drag it out too long, she had to move on with her life because she had a war to win and a kingdom to run. And when she slept with Dorian it was part healing for her because it could mask the memories of Leith. So when she thought of sex she could think of her time with Dorian instead of the horror she went through.
And Kiyo is a BIG 'OL HYPOCRITE!!! JERK!!! and I really wanted to like him because I just have a thing for shifters but what an ASS!!! lol
well that is my take on things :-)
Mod
I don't think he is that controlling. He tells her what he doesn't like but he doesn't force her to do anything.
Zeenat wrote: "I think they did talk for a short time, but she shied away from him at first. But their conversation made her comfortable enough to move forward."
Sorry but after ten minutes? Oh well, we just have to agree to disagree. LOL
Susie wrote: "But in the fever series if you are talking about her becoming Priya or how ever you spell it, and it has been a while since I read the books so I may be wrong,"
I'm talking about that and like I said I hate the "heal rape by having sex" plot device. For me it was a cheap way used by KMM for them to have sex.
Susie wrote: "And Kiyo is a BIG 'OL HYPOCRITE!!! JERK!!! and I really wanted to like him because I just have a thing for shifters but what an ASS!!! lol"
I really like Kiyo but from all your comments it sounds like he'll do something stupid. Maybe I'll start disliking him as well. But if he really turns out to be a jerk, he and Eugenie are perfect for each other because she's an annoying stupid whore. LOL
I definitely wouldn't consider Eugenie a slut. She definitely makes some bad decisions where her love life is concerned- she never gives either man a chance. Though, considering my dislike of Kiyo, I'd be thrilled if she dropped him permanently.Also, for those of you that have read to the end of the series, is it really the end? When I finished the book, I expected another one to be coming out. It just seemed so open ended. The last book was published in 2011, is it possible that RM might write another?
Mod
Anyway, I got the impression that it took Eugenie a while t..."
Thanks for sharing that link. You should have done that earlier!!! *runs off reading Zeenat's blog entries*
But...
That’s why I don’t like Edward, Jacob, Nick, Marshall, Pierce, Ryu, Mircea, Donovan, Kiyo, Terrible, Mychael . . .
Mircea??? :-(
Oh well, this means I don't have to share him with you. :-P
Claire wrote: "I definitely wouldn't consider Eugenie a slut. She definitely makes some bad decisions where her love life is concerned- she never gives either man a chance. Though, considering my dislike of Kiyo,..."UGH I know!!!! SOOOOOO much was left undone and YES she said that was the LAST book!!! I am so FREAKING ANGRY about that!!(If whoever reads this, if you didn't finish the series yet then don't read the spoilers!!!!) (view spoiler)
Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ wrote: "Btw, I can't help but see Dorian like this."
Can you repeat the pic, please?
Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ wrote: "Zeenat wrote: "Claire wrote: "Sorry I just keep jumping into random threads, but I don't see them when they start, and then they seem interesting so...Anyway, I got the impression that it took Eu..."
LOL I like Mircea, just not for Cassie or for dating . . . dude I would totally have sex with him though. whew . . .
ETA: oh and thanks for reading the blog Sarah! I am hesitant to share it because I'm still so scared about my new path lol
Mod
The pic didn't work anymore but it was
http://www.disneyclips.com/imagesnewb...
ugh it was open ended. I think on her blog or something, she said that for Eugenie her HEA (view spoiler). I think RM also said that she may some day in the distant future come back . . . maybe a short story :::shrugs:::
Zeenat wrote: "Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ wrote: "Zeenat wrote: "Claire wrote: "Sorry I just keep jumping into random threads, but I don't see them when they start, and then they seem interesting so...Anyway, I g..."
I just want to know which characters are from which books, I know some of them and Edward I first thought of Anita Blake but he is not controlling so I guess you mean Twilight?
Mod
I know Mircea and I would fight a lot but I can't help it. I love him! :-)
Zeenat wrote: "ETA: oh and thanks for reading the blog Sarah! I am hesitant to share it because I'm still so scared about my new path lol"
Awww, don't be scared. The glimpses I saw were very interesting. I'm defo going to comment over there.
@ Susie- Question: how do you selectively hide spoilers within a paragraph? Anyway, I HATED the ending RM gave the series. It is such crap. Absolutely nothing was resolved. I agree, that was a total bitch move on Eugenie's part. Dorian has a right to know. Besides, didn't she mention that he'd find out eventually? Which means he'll just feel betrayed and incredibly hurt. Also, I really hate the Willow queen (I don't remember how to spell her name).
Claire wrote: "@ Susie- Question: how do you selectively hide spoilers within a paragraph? Anyway, I HATED the ending RM gave the series. It is such crap. Absolutely nothing was resolved. I agree, that was a tota..."right above the comment box it says (some html is ok) you click on that and it shows you how to do it. you just put your text where the ... is.
and yep (view spoiler)
Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ wrote: "The rape thing really bothers me. I know everyone deals differently with that experience but it seems to be normal in certain book genres that the heroines get over it in the blink of an eye. Worst..."No need to apologize to me. I understand why you hate her so much. Indecisive people who don't stick to their convictions are frustrating. There were plenty of times where Eugenie's decisions just baffled me and I was pretty unhappy with her in book 4.
@Zeenat You do have a point with that two worlds thing. I think that's what Mead was going for.
@Sarah Kiyo does something that's a lot worse than stupid. That's why I can't wait to hear your reactions of Iron Crowned
@ Susie- thanks! I appreciate it. And (view spoiler)Seriously, Kiyo proves that he is a raging asshole, beyond a shadow of a doubt. I kind of liked him at first, but he totally blew it for me.
There were also times where I wanted to shake Eugenie and yell at her to make up her damn mind.
I'm 50% through the Thorn Queen and trying not to read too many spoilers!! I hope to finish tomorrow, so will join in the discussion more then. I'm enjoying it so far. I'm definitely liking Dorian more than Kiyo. I don't dislike Kiyo, but he's not as interesting a character as Dorian. Dorian actually reminds me a little of Mircea. They're both powerful and command others. They both enjoy using sex as a means to an end and they both enjoy manipulating others into doing what they want. Dorian seems a little more honest, as he tends to come right out and say what he wants, then hopes his personal charms will win Eugenie over to his side. Mircea usually hides what's really going on, much to Cassie's annoyance.
Anyway, will check back in tomorrow. Oh, and I'm glad Eugenie finally pointed out to Kiyo that he doesn't do foreplay. That's been bugging me since the first book!! :D
I just think that Dorian is a better person than Kiyo. Or, at the very least, more considerate. For example, how Kiyo never bothered with foreplay because he only cared about his own pleasure and didn't worry about how Eugenie might feel. Dorian took great pains to make sure that Eugenie was okay with everything that was happening. He wanted her to enjoy the experience too, and I find that difference in attitude telling.
I think we're supposed to believe that it was Kiyo's animal instincts that made him neglect foreplay, but come on, he lives in human society. Has he never read Cosmo?? :DDorian did go out his way to make sure Eugenie was comfortable with everything that was going on between them and, yeah, it does speak toward an entirely different mindset.
I'm off to read a few pages more. It's extremely late here in the UK!!
Haha exactly! It seems like Eugenie explains away Kiyo's careless attitude by emphasizing his animal side. But, Kiyo isn't an animal and he never bothers to acknowledge that. He lives by a set of rules that he has determined and doesn't care about the consequences for the people around him (like Eugenie) something that becomes apparent later on.
Mod
*shocked*
Lannister wrote: "Oh, and I'm glad Eugenie finally pointed out to Kiyo that he doesn't do foreplay."
Claire wrote: "For example, how Kiyo never bothered with foreplay because he only cared about his own pleasure and didn't worry about how Eugenie might feel."
But they do foreplay, just not all the time. When she mentions it, it is said he did something with honey, for example. We just didn't get to see that which is not fair. He also lets Eugenie do a lot like tying him to the bed which I hated! Not because of the bondage but because I do not want the female to be the dominating part.
Btw, I don't really have a problem with Dorian. He's an okay character but I have to laugh everytime when MR tries to show him all 'badass leader' and Eugenie is so impressed. I don't feel that at all.
I really wonder what will happen with Volusian in the end.
I've finished Thorn Queen now and have read through the other comments.Wow, there's definitely a lot of hate for Kiyo in this thread. I'm dying to see what he does in the next book!! To be honest, I don't dislike Kiyo. I don't actually think he's done anything wrong by Eugenie (so far!) Sure, he's been spending a lot of time with Manwein(sp?), the pregnant ex. But that actually makes him a better person, rather than a worse one, and if Eugenie has issues with that (and to a degree I can understand why she might feel a little jealous), then those issues are HER problem, not Kiyo's. She either has to accept she's with a guy who has a kid with someone else, or, if she can't accept that (and I could understand if she couldn't) then she needs to break up with him. The situation ain't going to be different just cos Eugenie wishes it would be different.
I'm kinda torn over the scene where Leith was killed. I can see both sides to be honest. Kiyo was trying to view the situation objectively without letting the emotion of Eugenie's rape influence his opinion. Dorian, on the surface, did react emotionally and punished the guy that hurt Eugenie. But I think there was a lot more going on. Dorian was well aware of the consequences of his action and I think he saw this as a way of binding Eugenie to him even tighter. He knew there would be a war and Eugenie would feel morally obligated to fight with him, given the circumstances. Anything that puts them together is a good thing from Dorian's POV and I think he knew all this when he stabbed Leith. And the fact that they can potentially conquer another land and increase their power is just icing on the cake. This is why Dorian reminds me of Mircea, cos I think this is exactly the sort of thing that Mircea would do. He does something ostensibly for a good reason, but there's always another layer to his motivations that makes the gesture less altruistic and more self-serving. That's how I see it anyway.
I thought Eugenie might be toast when she called Volusian when she was weakened by the Night Shade. Why the hell didn't she even consider that he might try to break free given her condition? Even I saw that coming!
Mod
Exactly.
Also, he's only supporting his pregnant ex while she's fucking around behind his back!
Lannister wrote: "Even I saw that coming!"
That's because you are smart and she is not! I didn't find it very realistic that she was stronger than him. But oh well, I guess she will be stronger than everyone else in the end.
I hate it that Eugenie makes me so mad. The rest of the series is so cool but since she's the narrator she's everywhere.
@Lannister I didn't have any real problems with Kiyo until he does what he does in Iron Crowned. I liked him. The only issue I had with him was that he didn't mention his pregnant ex earlier. His taking care of her makes sense. Otherwise, he would have been on his way to being a deadbeat Dad. But it's a combination of this and what he does in book 3 that made me hate him. He has his reasons and they aren't even exactly bad ones, but it is awful enough to override any justification.You're most likely right about Dorian, too. I can't remember if he and Eugenie ever talk about that situation in that light, so I don't know if it ever got acknowledged, but Dorian tends to think through every scenario before he does something. I wouldn't put it past him to be do calculating.
I think Kiyo does do wrong by Eugenie. I also grew to really dislike Maiwen.I think Dorian is a great leader, but I also think he genuinely cares for Eugenie. In that moment, I believe he acted in what he thought was her best interest.
Additionally, I think we all know that if Leith was allowed to live, he wouldn't have been punished. The Rowan Queen Roweena (sp?) refused to acknowledge that he did any wrong. Leith would have gotten away with a several week long assault on a monarch, and Dorian/Eugenie couldn't let that stand.
I think Kiyo was shortsighted and failed to see that conflict was inevitable. If Leith was allowed to walk, Eugenie and Dorian would have looked weak and someone else would have attacked them anyway.
I think Volusian is right in the first book--they have their own agendas. so both are pretty selfish . . . . (view spoiler)
Yeah, I agree Claire. I think war probably was inevitable, though Dorian didn't necessarily have to get involved. It was really Eugenie's fight, but Dorian deliberately involved himself when he could have stayed back.I don't entirely understand what Rowena was thinking. Did she just think Eugenie would accept being raped by her son? Loads of Otherworld creatures had already tried to rape Eugenie and she pretty much killed every one of them. Why did anyone think Leith's treatment was going to be any different if Eugenie escaped? I mean, Eugenie already had a fearsome reputation in the Otherworld, even before she became Thorn Queen, so no-one could have taken her to be a weak human. I can't understand how Rowena feels wronged enough to go to war.
Also, I keep thinking Eugenie needs to get one of those contraceptive implants in her arm that last for five years. Much safer! And the technologically-illiterate Otherworlders would never think about a device hidden inside someone's body.
Mod
Btw, aren't there kind of different 'time zones' between our world and the Otherworld? Depending on what kind of pill you take, you have to be very accurate about WHEN you take it. I hope Eugenie doesn't forget that!
@Lannister This is true, Dorian didn't necessarily have to get involved. He probably should have let Eugenie sort things out herself, but his heart was in the right place.As for Rowena: Exactly! Her son helped imprison and then raped an Otherworld queen. What the hell did she expect? I could understand Rowena holding a serious grudge against Eugenie after that; Leith may have been a bastard but he was her son. But war? That was totally unnecessary, and something Rowena came to regret. That part of the book just made me angry. I wished I could reach out and slap Rowena or something (which sounds silly, I know.)
And yes, Eugenie could definitely have used some more permanent contraception. It would have saved her a lot of trouble in the long run! When are you starting the next book?
Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ wrote: "Lannister wrote: "if Eugenie has issues with that (and to a degree I can understand why she might feel a little jealous), then those issues are HER problem,"Exactly.
Also, he's only supporting ..."
I don't remember disliking Kiyo in the first book, but even then he supported Maiwenn and her political agenda, not just his baby momma and child. From the start, Maiwenn's dictates brought him to Eugenie and determined how he treated her. The never changes, no matter how much he says he loves Eugenie. It may not be sexual with Maiwenn anymore--but his actions indicate that his loyalty to queen was deeper than his love for Eugene regardless of a child. In other books it's clear he puts Maiweenn politics ahead of anything he may feel for Eugenie. (view spoiler) His love is not worth much if his loyalty lies elsewhere.
Rowena was an idiot. Also, Eugenie's contraception choices were probably a means to further the plot. If she had done anything differently contraception wise, this would have turned out to be a much different story and I'm pretty sure that the major events that happened, happened the way Mead wanted them to. Eugenie's crappy contraception choice (for the situation she's in) was a part of that.
@Claire I grew to hate Maiwenn, too. For the same reasons that I grew to hate Kiyo.
@ Tangled I agree completely. What bothered me about Kiyo and Maiwenn wasn't that he was standing by his child, which is important, it's that he's basically Maiwenn's errand boy. She says jump, he jumps. No matter how much he claims to care about Eugenie, he doesn't trust her or her decisions as Queen. That's why I don't think they could have ever had a relationship.@Mello glad to share the same position! Also, you're right about contraception as plot device. If every character in every book made 100% decisions all the time, they 1) wouldn't be acting like 99% of the population and 2) there would be no drama. The problem in the story has to come from somewhere. It wouldn't be realistic if things just fell out of the sky and happened.
Rowena was too overwhelmed with grief to know otherwise. It was mentioned by Dorian, too, I think. Or someone else, that that's why she refuses to back down. :::Shrugs::: it helped further the plot more . . .
@Tangled Really good post. Can't help but to agree.@Claire Exactly. I don't know that there could have been much of a story at all after a while if that whole contraception thing would have been different.
Mod
It doesn't sound silly. Some characters cause positive reactions, some negative. There are several characters I want dead! Speaking of different series here, not only the Dark Swan series.
Claire wrote: "When are you starting the next book?"
The week after the next. I have to read something else in between. LOL
Claire wrote: "Also, you're right about contraception as plot device."
Hell, she gets pregnant.
Btw, even though I hate how they were drawn into the war, I'm really looking forward to the battle(s). I love action!
I would have guessed that Eugenie gets pregnant even if I hadn't read all these comments. You get the feeling that the books have been building towards it, or the frequent mentions of contraception wouldn't have been necessary. Still, I'm curious to see whether it's a conscious choice or an accident. Oh, and who's the father!!I didn't find grief an excuse for Rowena's behaviour. It said somewhere that she was shrewd and shouldn't be underestimated, so I'd have thought she had a fair idea what her son was up to. She no doubt wanted her son to be powerful, but knew he couldn't inherit on his own, so I'd have thought it likely she was encouraging him to get Eugenie knocked up.
I'm starting the third book now. You guys have got me too curious about Kiyo!! :D
Mod
I hope it's Kiyo. He seems to be doing something stupid and I wonder if Eugenie hates him after it. Would serve her right to get a baby from a man she hates. Hahahaha! I hope it's not Dorian. Would be too perfect HEA and all.
Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ wrote: "I hope it's not Dorian. Would be too perfect HEA and all. "Yeah, that's why I think it probably will be Dorian. Authors do so love their happy endings.
I wonder if it's significant that Eugenie mentioned abortion to Leith. Just because she gets pregnant doesn't mean she actually has a baby. Though I suspect that might be just a bit too controversial for most UF authors (or for their publishers, at least).
@ Sarah I know she gets pregnant, but because this is a series readalong I didn't want to spoil it.I think Mead handles the father issue in an interesting way, although I hate the way the series ends.
I agree that Rowena may have known what her son was up to. If she did, then serves her right for what happens.
Also, just because Eugenie isn't everyone's favorite character doesn't mean she deserves to have horrible things happen to her. Other characters in the story (Ahem, Kiyo, Maiwenn) make worse decisions.
Mod
I know. But it'd be bold if she let Eugnie have an abortion. I mean, it's to safe the human world from getting conquered!
I'm betting Eugenie gets preggers but it's a girl, so that takes the heat off her, since apparently only men can conquer the world. That would satisfy Eugenie's maternal cravings but lets the author cop out of the world domination thing. Though I don't know where Jasmine fits in with this theory.
Karen Chance Fans
Books mentioned in this topic
Iron Crowned (other topics)Iron Crowned (other topics)
Iron Crowned (other topics)
Thorn Queen (other topics)
Daddy's Anal Virgin (other topics)
More...
I agree w/ the unrealistic rape after effects of this book. I have heard that the Mercy Thompson scenario is more realistic. Actually, I think someone here said that...
Also, I <3 Dobby! Volusian would look like an evil version of him. :)