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Kushiel's Dart (Phèdre's Trilogy, #1)
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2012 Archives > Jun 2012: Did anyone else feel just a little ripped off that...[spoilers]

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Kirsten Bailey (klbailey) | 86 comments Overall I enjoyed this book, but I have to say I was a little disappointed we didn't get a description of Phedre's night with Hyacinthe! I understood her reasoning for not telling about it, but still. Did anyone else feel this way?


AnnaBanana Pascone (snapdragnful) | 89 comments I was actually disappointed that she did it at all. Like you, I understand her reasoning, but I felt that it cheapened her friendship. I wasn't a huge fan of their "would they/wouldn't they" sub-plot, regardless of how subtly it was done.

I wonder if the author avoided it because it was too "normal" and she didn't want it to compare with the scene with Joscelyn.


Sophia | 13 comments When I read it I kind of got the feeling that if any sex scene in the book could really be considered a "private moment" it would be that one. Her assignations are, at their most basic, a job (and yes this is selling them completely short) and generally have some form of plot development in them. The scene with Joscelin was in a cave touched by Elua so it could be argued as a rather... open (not sure what sort of wording I want to use here) because of the mystical influence that seemed to be going on. Hyacinthe was comforting a grieving friend, so it kind of makes sense it was less descriptive because there's definitely more of a private element to it than any other scene.


Courtney | 26 comments AnnaBanana wrote: "I was actually disappointed that she did it at all."

That is EXACTLY how I felt about it, too. I was literally yelling at the book "NOOO! DON'T DOOO IT!!!!" Hyacinthe was her one, true, friend. Even if there was a subtle flirtation going on between them I honestly felt it was more of a teasing, almost brother/sister, type friendship.

I understand why she did it and that it was, partly, to show another way she lives in service of Naamah but I was really hoping it wouldn't go there.

Then again I also found myself sighing in slight disappointment every time she slept with someone after the night with Joscelyn. It was completely in character for Phedre to do so BUT it made me a bit sad because, obviously, they cared about each other. Although, her continuing to serve Naamah, and him being a Cassiline, do add a depth and complexity to their relationship that I like.


Rachel | 89 comments I actually thought it added more depth to her friendship. I've gone to bed with friends before, and I feel closer to some of them because of it. Especially in context - this was really the last chance they'd have to be together, and this is how D'angelines express love. To them, they don't think that sex cheapens anything, only makes it puruer.


message 6: by AnnaBanana (last edited Jun 06, 2012 01:17PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

AnnaBanana Pascone (snapdragnful) | 89 comments Courtney wrote: "Then again I also found myself sighing in slight disappointment every time she slept with someone after the night with Joscelyn. It was completely in character for Phedre to do so BUT it made me a bit sad because, obviously, they cared about each other. Although, her continuing to serve Naamah, and him being a Cassiline, do add a depth and complexity to their relationship that I like"

You should definitely read the second book, then. Or maybe not. Read it, then let me know lol

I did feel that there was an element of love between Hyacinthe and Phedre, but I didn't WANT there to be. So I was DOUBLY disappointed when they slept together. But yes, it was partly in service to Naamah and partly a result of battle lust and grief. But she does it twice, and the second time wasn't for those reasons. It is the only time in the whole series that she seemed slutty to me, like somehow it was more disrespectful to Jocelyn because Hyacinthe was her friend and not just a patron. (I know that she has love for her patrons, but this is different.)


Mouse | 10 comments AnnaBanana wrote: "It is the only time in the whole series that she seemed slutty to me, like somehow it was more disrespectful to Jocelyn because Hyacinthe was her friend and not just a patron. (I know that she has love for her patrons, but this is different.)"

This. It killed me, not that she was a sexual person per say, but that she was so obtuse and inconsiderate to Jocelyn at the most inopportune times. I genuinely enjoyed this book and her character, but this is one moment that felt extremely selfish. Especially when you look at the quickly evolving plot line with her and Jocelyn as lovers at that point.


Seawood No, I didn't get that sense at all - it was absolutely the right thing for her to do to say goodbye and give comfort to the one friend who'd been there all her life. It was the completion of a cycle for them both. Not only that but it deepened her understanding of her service to Naamah - which in turn helped her to be brave enough to follow Kushiel's service in the end.

She and Jocelyn have a great deal to work out around that vow of his - they are very mismatched as partners go because of that - and right then was not the time. He was respecting her vows of service to her gods just as she respects his. As a lover he might not like it very much but as a priest I think he understood why - and more than that, what a huge sacrifice Hyacinthe was making.


Joie I have always felt that had she not gone to bed with Hyacinthe it would have made her less of who she was supposed to be in the story.

And I love love love that she continues on taking patrons after her arrangement with Jocelyn. To not do either puts her in the typical "I have the man I need and now any outside life I have is done." style of female characters. To me it speaks to being pragmatic while in love-not a popular concept, I know.

I adore Phedre's story because she does what she must, she admits her emotions and accepts the consequences of feeling them(loving Jocelyn, her patrons), and she is able to put forth who she is without doing things to negate that. I personally see so many people who can't accept who they are, who can't live their lives without self sabotage, and who can't be that self aware.

But that is me, reading my perception in the story.


message 10: by Erin (new) - rated it 5 stars

Erin (theoreticallye) | 5 comments I personally was not happy the first time while Hyacinthe was morning Moiread. I realize that it was to show the different rolls a servant of Naamah fulfilled (comforting in grief) and to show Phedre especially filling those rolls despite being an anguissette, but I feel that it cheapened their relationship a bit, and also cheapened the feelings Hyacinthe had for Moiread.

However, I do think it was very fitting for Phedre to say goodbye to Hyacinthe in that way, especially considering the solitude that he was going to be left in. Though, I do agree that we should have gotten a few details...


Renee (whovianmom) | 25 comments That is EXACTLY how I felt about it, too. I was literally yelling at the book "NOOO! DON'T DOOO IT!!!!" Hyacinthe was her one, true, friend. Even if there was a subtle flirtation going on between them I honestly felt it was more of a teasing, almost brother/sister, type friendship...."

I felt the exact same way! The whole time I just kept thinking "Ewwwwww! This is so wrong."

I really didn't feel their relationship was in any way sexual or even needed to go in that direction. They were like brother and sister. I also feel that by having sex with him, she ruined their relationship. Their relationship changed a little after the act, but not as much as it should have.


Kathryn Weis | 60 comments I find myself a little disappointed at various points in the book when she skims over the sex scenes. It goes from full throttle to screeching halt it's almost like whiplash...


Kirsten Bailey (klbailey) | 86 comments That's how I felt Kathryn! And because the strong BDSM scenes aren't really my thing, I was all the more disappointed when the 'vanilla' sex was skimmed over.


AnnaBanana Pascone (snapdragnful) | 89 comments MaybeMaeby wrote: "Maybe in skipping over the boring political bits I missed this? Does this happen when she leaves him on the island? I thought I totally read that whole part and so don't remember any of this!! So m..."

It happens twice. Once after the battle in Alba, after they are doing cleanup basically. And again, the night that they leave Hyacinthe on the island. They weren't actual sex scenes, they were more like one or two lines, so if you speed read, you probably missed it. But really, you weren't missing much.


Gotobedmouse | 73 comments I was disappointed in the sex scenes overall. This book was recommend because it was "erotica" and it gets started and then they "wake up". It left me very frustrated.
And how could you expect her Not to sleep with Hyacinthe? She is a whore (and I say that in the nicest way) that is how she shows her love. I am not even a whore and the thought would totally have crossed my mind. Just wish there was more than a line devoted to her and Hyacinthe coupeling. After 700 odd pages we deserved at least a paragraph and a thrust or a fondle or something. The love triangle lasted several hundred pages in the book.


Madison E. (madiemartin) | 231 comments Gotobedmouse wrote: "This book was recommend because it was "erotica".... "

It is really considered erotica? I'm not too familiar with what delineates the erotica genre anyway, but I would classify this book as fantasy. Sorry this may be unrelated to this thread.

I think everyone here has brought up good points about Phedre/Hyacinthe. I guess since, I expected it to happen eventually I wasn't too bothered that Carey included it. I do think it was not well placed. Someone said it cheapened his feelings for Moiread, I had that impression as well.


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Vicky (librovert) | 493 comments Mod
I don't think the book was supposed to be erotica, I believe it's "epic fantasy" month.

As far as the lack of description with Phedre and Hyacinthe, I think there are a few things at play.

For one, the book is written as though it's a memoir of Phedre. In that sense I think she's entitled to her private moments, which is why her night with Hyacinthe (and to an extent her night with Joscelin) is glossed over.

I think it's also a way to show that "normal" sex isn't really Phedre's thing. Not to say she doesn't enjoy it or that the nights she spent with Hyacinthe/Joscelin didn't mean anything - but she's an anguissette.

At the end of Chapter 20 while attending Melisande's party at Cereus House Melisande instructs one of the adepts to please Phedre"
"Be gentle with her," [Melisande] said over her shoulder, amusement in her voice.
Much to my dismay, he was."

Thinking of that and looking at some of her assignations and sexual encounters, she only seems to describe the more BDSM moments. After three pages of BDSM moments with d'Essoms during her first assignation, we get three sentences summing up their "normal" sex. Even after The Longest Night when she was contracted to Melisande, there was this agonizing scene with the flechettes, which leads to Phedre asking her for sex. The next thing we know, they're lying in bed having a conversation.


Michelle | 4 comments Vicky wrote: "I don't think the book was supposed to be erotica, I believe it's "epic fantasy" month.

As far as the lack of description with Phedre and Hyacinthe, I think there are a few things at play.

For o..."

I completely agree with you. This book is definitely “epic fantasy”, not erotica. I liked the book, loved some of the characters, but also found the sex to be very vanilla. The BDSM parts were described with so much detail …I just expected that more detail would be given to the actual acts of sex. I thought Carey used more detail describing a character’s clothing than a character’s couplings. I know BDSM was Phedre’s thing and that pain is what got her off, so I expected vivid details of those acts, but I still felt cheated in the sexy time department. I mean I invested all this time in this book and I wanted to know what she learned “to please kings”. Call it research, but I wanted to know! When Phedre is asked to begin demonstrating the acts for which she had been trained, she “knelt in obeisance” and then (gasp!) she woke up the next morning. Still, I liked the book…I just wouldn’t call it erotica.


Amber Dawn (ginger_bug) | 147 comments Rachel wrote: "I actually thought it added more depth to her friendship. I've gone to bed with friends before, and I feel closer to some of them because of it. Especially in context - this was really the last ch..."

I agree with you on this one. It's sweet.


message 20: by Sadi (new) - rated it 5 stars

Sadi (mobats4ever) | 13 comments I have to agree with Amber and Rachel on this one


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