Fans of Norah Lofts discussion

28 views
Jacobites

Comments Showing 1-10 of 10 (10 new)    post a comment »
dateDown arrow    newest »

message 1: by [deleted user] (new)

I am often encountering this subject in my reading and always forget exactly what it is. Apparently this cause is why Colin Lowrie had to leave Scotland. This is also the background in Devil Water by Anya Seton.


Jacobitism was (and, to a limited extent, remains) the political movement dedicated to the restoration of the Stuart kings to the thrones of England, Scotland, and Ireland. The movement took its name from the Latin form Jacobus of the name of King James II and VII.

Jacobitism was a response to the deposition of James II and VII in 1688 when he was replaced by his daughter Mary II jointly with her husband and first cousin William of Orange. The Stuarts lived on the European mainland after that, occasionally attempting to regain the throne with the aid of France or Spain. The primary seats of Jacobitism were Ireland and Scotland, particularly the Scottish Highlands. There was also some support in England and Wales, especially Northern England.
Out of This Nettle


message 2: by Djo (new)

Djo | 28 comments I really want to comment on your post, but I'm not sure what to say! Your description of Jacobitism is completely accurate, but devoid of the emotion that is so entangled with it. This is not a criticism as you are not English!! I know you spent some time in East Anglia, but that area is a world apart in lots of ways, so I wouldn't expect you to encounter any of the Scottish/English feeling.

England, Scotland and Wales were three very separate, very different and very proud kingdoms, once upon a time. To a lot of people they still are. I have nothing against the Welsh or Scots, but I will always refer to myself as English, not British. To me it means a lot.

My history is disgustingly hazy when it comes to trying to write down facts. I only did one year of history at school, the rest is self-taught. England and Scotland have been at war for centuries, and Scotland's slow defeat to England was bloody and bitter.

There are many factors involved - politics, religion, royal rights, clans and the geography of Scotland are the ones that pop up in my uneducated mind. The Scots were an incredibly proud and hardy race - clans were everything, and the King of Scotland was every bit as important as the King of England.

England was bigger and was able to muster bigger armies, and England took advantage of inter-clan warfare whenever it could. Although Scotland is a small country by comparison to England, there is/was a definite difference between the highlands and the lowlands. There were times when the lowlands would be subdued (to an extent) but the highlands would not accept defeat.

The English used some pretty severe tactics to subdue the Scots. Houses were razed to the ground - be it the humble crofter who existed by keeping a couple of pigs and some hens, or the rich landowner who had a big house and hundreds of acres. Families were left to starve, the menfolk killed or maimed. Land was enclosed and given to English lords, the Scots starved or emigrated.

Scottish pride is massive, and there are still Scottish folk who dislike the English and what we did to them. In our timescales it is not ancient history, although it is not seen as recent, but it is recent enough that the English are resented in some places.

I have great admiration for the Scots and how long and hard they fought the English. They carried on fighting for decades after it was obvious (to most) that they had lost the fight.

It's extremely hard trying to put this sort of thing into words, especially as I am aware that I am very hazy on a lot of dates and facts. Having said that, I have read a lot about the Scottish uprisings and am aware of the emotion and bravery that took place.

The battles may have been fought centuries ago, but I bet there are not many Scottish children who can't name the major battles.


message 3: by Djo (new)

Djo | 28 comments I've just re-read my post. I sound rather passionate about it don't I?

Please don't take my ramblings as gospel - if anyone can correct any errors please do, I won't be offended. I tried to keep it a bit vague as I am rubbish on dates etc with Scottish history.


message 4: by Barbara (new)

Barbara (sema4dogz) | 1905 comments


message 5: by Barbara (new)

Barbara (sema4dogz) | 1905 comments Hi Alice, yes Eliz the 1st is my heroine too, and Eleanor of Aquitaine,and Vashti ( funny how NL has featured them all ) You comment about the English guy saying " master race ' makes me laugh altho I suppose it shouldn't - like finding Basil Fawlty's 'don't mention the war' funny. It just IS if you are English. Sorry, sorry to all the nice Germans. I had a German boyfriend once and ) my (Austalian) brother in law made him watch Hogans Heroes. We were all mortified, but he was a very good sport I must say. Except my mum kept muttering 'yes but what did his father do in the war ..."
Enough, sorry again nice German people who deplore it all.
Re the ancestors in jails-out here in Australia it is commonplace for people to have convict ancestry of course,and even a sort of inverse snobbery. My husband is descended from not one but two Irish convicts in fact.
I did some genealogy too, and was hoping for Cavalier- types in Jacobite times, but they all seem to have been miners if men and servants if women and all uncompromising low-church Protestant no matter what. And no money or status anywhere. I say to Michael, "come the Revolution my love, we have impeccable ancestry"........


message 6: by [deleted user] (new)

LOL! I relate! The German pilots at Sheppard AFB all used to love Hogans Heroes and it was number one with them!!! They watched all old war movies to get a different perspective I guess. They liked it that Snoopie was always pretending to be The Red Baron.
When I lived in Suffolk I always heard where the unexploded bombs were and we lived in the Tank Road. Its very hard to overcome that stuff.
I did date the German pilots here and took German in college. I attended lot of their parties. They were mostly very nice except for a more chauvinistic attitude than I was used to.
At least we know our ancestors were very tough. My great great grandmother Catherine Snyder walked barefoot in the snow to the mill. How did she do that? Her husband McCraw died on the White River of yellow fever and she had to take the buggy back to Alabama.
I can't even get back across the water but wish I could! One of the Norah Lofts fans I met on a genealogy list for Scottish genealogy. She wanted to know if I had walked in Layer Wood. I know I was with my dogs in the Queen's Forest but how would I know if it was Layer Wood. Wasn't Layer Wood haunted? Someone threw herself into a pool there. Then there was that poor little boy who was buried under the leaves.

Barbara wrote: "Hi Alice, yes Eliz the 1st is my heroine too, and Eleanor of Aquitaine,and Vashti ( funny how NL has featured them all ) You comment about the English guy saying " master race ' makes me laugh alt..."




message 7: by Sylvia (new)

Sylvia (SylviaB) | 1361 comments Over two years after the last comment, we are getting ready to enter a group discussion of "Colin Lowrie" (aka "Out of This Nettle"). The comments in this little thread are so good, especially the history of the Jacobites, and the comments about the passions and loyalties of the Scottish and the English, continuing even to this day. I thought that those of us who are reading Colin Lowrie might get a better sense of the times by rereading these comments.


message 8: by Werner (new)

Werner | 638 comments Yes, Sylvia, having read the first 30-odd pages of Colin Lowrie, I'd say that a knowledge of the whole Jacobite history is very relevant to that discussion! As a history major, I'd say that Alice's recap of the historical facts, and Djo's explanation of the emotional intensity behind them, are right on the money. The final Jacobite rising under Bonnie Prince Charlie was in 1745, when Colin was just 16.

My first introduction to the Jacobite issue was as a kid reading Kidnapped. Though I'm not a Scot, I'll admit to having pretty strong Jacobite sympathies. That may seem ironic, given that the Stuart cause tended to be associated with Roman Catholicism and hereditary privilege, while I'm a firm Protestant and general supporter of the poor and downtrodden. :-) But I'm also a strong supporter of traditional community over money-grubbing commercial oligarchy, national/local self-determination over imperialism, and decent underdogs vs. brutal power; and every one of those instincts makes me gravitate to the Jacobites. Nobody can really answer historical questions of "what would have happened if...?" But for what it's worth, I don't really believe that by 1745 (or even 1715) a Stuart victory would have threatened religious freedom or the rise of democracy. But it very well might have made for a less violent and less oppressive succeeding history, both in Scotland and in England.


message 9: by Sylvia (last edited Jun 02, 2011 07:27PM) (new)

Sylvia (SylviaB) | 1361 comments The history of kings, religions, wars, and intrigues in the whole of Great Britain is so complicated, I'm afraid to comment, or take sides, on any of it. Just the little I have studied lately in prep. for our discussion of "Colin Lowrie" makes me appreciate what the American colonies were trying to escape. But nearly 300 years later, feelings are still high in the abolished Clans. Passions still run high even here in the USA!

Somewhere in my studies, I believe it was pointed out that there were very early Scottish settlements in what is now South Carolina and New Jersey (USA). Those settlements were not prosperous because these immigrants came over in poor economic times and didn't have the capitol of the British colonists. Also the English Parliament blocked Scotland from foreign trade and kept them from prosperity. If my understanding of "laird" being a landowner is correct, Mr. Lowrie, Colin's father, went from being a laird to being a pauper during the Jacobite uprisings.


message 10: by Werner (new)

Werner | 638 comments "Laird" is Scots dialect for "lord," so it refers to the old Scottish nobility. Some large landowners were lairds, but (if I understand correctly) others were just well-to-do commoners, but "gentlemen" of respected old families, like the English squires. Colin's father would have been in that class. (I think there were also small-scale yeoman farmers who owned freeholds, as there were in England.) But yes, all wealthy Jacobites paid a heavy price for their loyalty to the Stuarts.


back to top