Ender in Exile (Ender's Saga, #1.2) Ender in Exile discussion


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Dissapointed!!!

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message 1: by Manda (new) - added it

Manda every single character in this novel is obsessed with haveing children and geting married. all it speaks of is love and reproduction. These can be wonderful topics for a sf novel to explore, but Card is unimaginative and this book is annoying and repetitive


message 2: by Amanda (new)

Amanda The LDS religion seems, like Roman Catholocism and Orthodox Judaism, to put LOTS if emphasis on marrying and reproducing. It's not just a good idea - it's THE LAW.
Card is probably writing his personal beliefs into the books. I enjoyed his Alvin Maker books at first, but really stopped reading him at all when I read some of his hateful remarks about homosexuals. I think that kind of speech/writing is bad and hurtful and refuse to support writers who practice it.


Spider the Doof Warrior That was a very annoying book for that reason.
How much of that lecturing can a person take?
Especially when it has little to do with the story.
Folks GET the point!


Katherine Hanna I haven't read the Alvin series (yet), but find all the Ender books to be insightful, and the philosophies mind-bending. I suppose not everyone will see it that way. Some people have their ideas and do not want to hear other ideas.
And it seems odd to stop reading a writer because a character has ideas that do not coincide with yours. Murder is a hideous thing in real life, but do you stop supporting writers who have a character that murders? Do you assume that those are the feelings/impulses of the writer? Why would you assume that a character that makes comments about homosexuals is speaking the thoughts of the author?
The Ender books have tested my mind in a way it has not been tested in years (I've only recently discovered this stash of brilliance), and I have nothing but admiration for the mind that brings these characters' virtues AND flaws to life.


Spider the Doof Warrior It's just that is exactly how the author thinks when it comes to that issue.
Just read his articles on the subject and cringe. Plus he's on the NOM board.
Fact is, maybe I could just read the books if he didn't fill every other page with rants about heterosexual marriage and having babies. If only he didn't take over various characters and use them to push his agenda.
No, I think I'll just read Neil Gaiman and not get stressed out.


Katherine Hanna Pardon my ignorance, but I don't know what the NOM board is...? And I haven't read any articles by him. Articles where?
And I'm not trying to be snarky, really, but trying to understand... you don't like books in which heterosexuals get married and have babies? How is that "pushing an agenda"?
"Take over characters"? He WROTE the characters. They are his creations. He can't take them over.
I really just don't understand.
If you don't like the books, I'm cool with that. There are all sorts of books I don't like for various reasons. But it just seems an odd objection, that because the characters are heterosexual and want to have babies, it means the author is pushing some insidious agenda. *shrug*


Spider the Doof Warrior There's nothing wrong with heterosexuality and marriage, I'm for that. There's just one problem with reading Card's books especially his later ones...

In between things actually happening it's ALL lecturing about marriages and heterosexuality to the point of propaganda and driving me insane.
Like in this book that is Ender in Exile. Most of the character go on and on about marriage and babies. Two scientist are talking about growing plants one second, the other science talks about how she wants the doctor to have sex with her because she wants babies with his braaaaaaaaaaains. But he says she's married and has to stick with her husband for the good of society.
It's one thing to create characters, but it's annoying to have characters just speak the author's rheroric every few pages. It doesn't make for good and enjoyable writing. So many other writers can write without nagging the reader and making them feel preached at.

Plus try reading what he has to say about gay people. Look up Orson Scott Card and homosexual marriage on Google and on his website. He says things about gays that are just... really cruel. I just can't take it anymore.

For example, in the Bean series there was a gay character who married a woman and went on and on about how everyone to be part of the web of life has to get married and have babies with someone of the opposite sex. What does such lecturing have to do with a good story?
So i can't take it anymore and it's too frustrating so I'm going to read writers who won't lecture, who won't fill every page with politics I don't agree with because I don't think letting gays have a slice of the marital pie will ruin OSC's marriage or anyone elses.

NOM is some sort of defense of heterosexual marriage board OSC is part of. They want to ban gay marriage. Why can't the focus on things that really hurt families?


Lucas Henry Synesthesia wrote: "There's nothing wrong with heterosexuality and marriage, I'm for that. There's just one problem with reading Card's books especially his later ones...

In between things actually happening it's ALL..."


The way I understood it in "Ender in Exile", the reason why the male scientist (too lazy right now to look up names) refuses to have children with the other scientist is that he realizes that in the very fragile new colony that has been started, there are very strict regulations on reproduction. Not because of any beliefs, but because they worry about the future of the colony. Something like adultery would tear the colony apart and just turn it into an experiment gone wrong.

In the "Shadow Saga", the way I understood it was that anton (I only remember the name because I just finished re-reading the books) wasn't gay. He just didn't feel the need to have sex at all. He was more focused on his science than what he was on women. He wasn't attracted to either men or women.

At least that's how I understand both parts of those books. I don't know anything about the Maker books or anything about his feelings about homosexuality. I guess that might be why I understood those sections in the books the way I did.


Michelle Lucas wrote: "The way I understood it in "Ender in Exile", the reason why the male scientist (too lazy right now to look up names) refuses to have children with the other scientist is that he realizes that in the very fragile new colony that has been started, there are very strict regulations on reproduction. Not because of any beliefs, but because they worry about the future of the colony. Something like adultery would tear the colony apart and just turn it into an experiment gone wrong."

I think you're dead on. In fact, that same theme shows up in Card's Homecoming series, in which a small group of people take to the desert to found a small colony, and it's much more of a focal point there.

Lucas wrote: "In the "Shadow Saga", the way I understood it was that anton (I only remember the name because I just finished re-reading the books) wasn't gay. He just didn't feel the need to have sex at all. He was more focused on his science than what he was on women. He wasn't attracted to either men or women."

I just finished this one... I think technically all that is said by Anton is that he didn't desire to have sex with women. I inferred that he was homosexual, but I think either interpretation is valid. I think the point remains the same.

I've read nearly all of Card's writing, and I've never felt that an agenda was being pushed in an unnatural way, but you can't miss the overwhelming theme of morality and marriage and family.

I don't see that as a bad thing, but even if you disagree... I've never felt the need to agree with the viewpoint of characters to find a story enjoyable. If I did, I would have put down Stephen King years ago. :)


Lucas Henry Heck, if I had to agree with a characters viewpoint to enjoy a story then I would completely tear my eyes and hair out because of some of the characters in "A song of Ice and Fire" and "The Wheel of Time." I love both series, but some of the characters just make me groan and wish that I could reach into the world and slap them.


message 11: by Marina (last edited Jan 12, 2012 08:07AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Marina Fontaine Homecoming Saga puts the characters in a very specific situation where procreation is crucial to survival. The woman who got paired up with the gay man did not exactly do it out of love or attraction. But they ended up having a beautiful, loving relationship nevertheless, even though Card went out of his way to show that the gay man was not "cured" by being forced into heterosexual sex, and that the sex part of the relationship was a chore.

As to what Card believes in real life, he did come out with a lengthy column explaining his position on gays which basically boils down to him not wanting the Mormon Church to accept homosexuality in their religios practice. One can't believe in freedom of religion and separation of church and state on one hand and demand that a religious person adjust his beliefs to suit "enlightened" societal views.

Ender in Exile is, among other things, a story of humanity spreading out and colonizing other worlds. Is it not reasonable to assume that people would want to procreate? Would that not assist in the purpose of spreading human population? Especially with people coming out of a society that restricted procreation for a long time, they may want to take advantage of the new environment. That's not preaching, that's knowledge of how the world works.


Marina Fontaine My biggest problem with Ender in Exile is inconsistency with the other books (Speaker etc.) In this book, Ender seems to have gotten over his guilt at the end, in part through talking it out with Valentine and in large part by accepting the physical punishment he felt he deserved. However, in the other books he's still riddled with guilt. Personally, I think Card has changed his position on pre-empite war after 9/11 and it's reflected in his writing.


Marina Fontaine Maybe Ender didn't completely get rid of the guilt, but he did some, and you see none of that in Ender sequels. I did read about Card revising the EG ending, but it was not related to the Ender character. Ender sequels are missing some other stuff, like Peter's character transformation that we see in the Shadow series. And yes, you should read the Shadow series first because obviously the Achilles character is a HUGE spoiler for it, and the Virlomi character probably left you puzzled as well.


Alicja Just ended Ender in Exile. It would be better without all of this lectures about reproducing and getting married. The same theories was in the Shadow series and was just as annoying. I think that OSC wants to sell his point of view to his readers and to do so he is using the best marketing strategy (religion use it for thousands of years): repeating. Maybe if someone read something once, twice.... eventually starts to agree.
Did you noticed that almost all women (excluding hive queen and Jane) in OSC books are mothers, sisters or wives? Mostly supporting and hardly ever achieve something on their own?


Marina Fontaine Um, did Petra get by you? She's one of the best, strongest, most exciting characters in the series. Also, Virlomi was not my cup of tea, but "supporting"- no way.


Alicja Petra and Virlomi are the reason why I wrote "almost all women". I excluded Jane and hive queen because they aren't humans.
.


Spider the Doof Warrior Aw. You are probably not Masha Scream. I named my spider after her.


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