The Rory Gilmore Book Club discussion
Rory Book Discussions
>
The Secret Life of Bees
message 1:
by
Robbie
(new)
Jan 02, 2009 06:36PM
Begin discussing! Please carefully label any spoilers.
reply
|
flag
*
Mod
Unfortunately, I did not get around to read the book yet. I hope though I'll be able to join in later during the month.
Maybe I'll get my Mom to watch the movie with me, then I'll join the movie discussion earlier, although I normally don't like to see the movie first.
Maybe I'll get my Mom to watch the movie with me, then I'll join the movie discussion earlier, although I normally don't like to see the movie first.
I read this book a couple years ago and sadly don't remember much. I know that I liked it at the time. I think I'll watch the movie as a refresher.
I read this book for the first time a couple of years ago and fell in love with it immediately. I read it again about a year ago and will probably read it again in the near future. I know a lot of people commented when we read Little Women about how they treasure that book and are able to read it over and over again. I think that might be the case for me with The Secret Life of Bees. I'm not exactly sure why. Maybe it's because I relate really well with Lily. I went through a similar rough patch in my life when I was Lily's age. I just wish that I had had August, May and June in my life to help me through it like Lily did.
This was a throroughly enjoyable read, I loved the Bee Symbolism and theme, The Boatright sisters and alot of the imagery. That said, I think its probably suffered a star loss for me for having the misfortune of being read directly after 'To Kill A Mockingbird' also narrated by a girl in the South with racial tensions and 'issues' but far more complex. In comparison I found the Bees book overly simplistic and predictable. Towards the end I really didnt care that much about Lily, she was beginning to grate and irritate me, although I was still in love with her companions. I Don't think I'd be able to bear Dakota Fanning in the movie though im curious about the other characters - I'll probably give it a go when its out on DVD
I guess this contains some minor spoliers so skip ahead if you havnt read yet - if theres a way to cover it im happy to do so, wasnt sure how (like in peoples reviews) found the questions on the net if you want to discuss any of them 1. Were you surprised to learn that T. Ray used to be different, that once he truly loved Deborah? How do you think Deborah's leaving affected him? Did it shed any light on why T. Ray was so cruel and abusive to Lily?
2. Had you ever heard of "kneeling on grits"? What qualities did Lily have that allowed her to survive, endure, and eventually thrive, despite T. Ray?
3. Who is the queen bee in this story?
4. Lily's relationship to her dead mother was complex, ranging from guilt to idealization, to hatred, to acceptance. What happens to a daughter when she discovers her mother once abandoned her? Is Lily right—would people generally rather die than forgive? Was it harder for Lily to forgive her mother or herself?
5. Lily grew up without her mother, but in the end she finds a house full of them. Have you ever had a mother figure in your life who wasn't your true mother? Have you ever had to leave home to find home?
6. What compelled Rosaleen to spit on the three men's shoes? What does it take for a person to stand up with conviction against brutalizing injustice? What did you like best about Rosaleen?
7. Had you ever heard of the Black Madonna? What do you think of the story surrounding the Black Madonna in the novel? How would the story be different if it had been a picture of a white Virgin Mary? Do you know women whose lives have been deepened or enriched by a connection to an empowering Divine Mother?
8. Why is it important that women come together? What did you think of the "Calendar Sisters" and the Daughters of Mary? How did being in the company of this circle of females transform Lily?
9. May built a wailing wall to help her come to terms with the pain she felt. Even though we don't have May's condition, do we also need "rituals," like wailing walls, to help us deal with our grief and suffering?
10. How would you describe Lily and Zach's relationship? What drew them together? Did you root for them to be together?
11. Project into the future. Does Lily ever see her father again? Does she become a beekeeper? A writer? What happens to Rosaleen? What happens to Lily and Zach? Who would Zach be today?
Amazing story. Watched the movie first, but then started reading the book. Ha.
Mod
I totally agree with Jon--it's a beautiful story, but fails the five star mark for me due to being a little formulamatic and at times heavy-handed (to me). But I LOVE the imagery and of course, all of the "women's themes". I said once that IF I could write a story, I would want it to be just like this one (being from the South makes it even more familiar feeling). It's just really a beautiful idea and for the most part very well-executed. Will respond to questions when I'm finished.
I hadn't planned on seeing this movie, but now I want to. Did anyone find it hard to believe that this was only set forty years ago...I really feel like we as a country have come a long way since then (in terms of civil rights). Am I right?
Has anyone read The Mermaid Chair? It was a bit disapointing to me, after this one.
I finished The Secret Life of Bees yesterday night and have to agree with all of you:
The story is very sweet, the imagery and the women empowerment themes are great. I loved the calendar sisters, the Daughters of Mary and also Lily because there characters were very realistic - I could have imagined any of them to have lived some day.
My favorite character was June, I guess. I can't even say why, she had faults like all the characters in the story, but I loved her seriousness and that she was, although she was so very strong, afraid of living her life fully. That made her very human to me.
I did not enjoy the end as much, the last couple of pages - the romantic in me wanted Lily to stay with the calendar daughters and to be with Zack, but it would have been so much more realistic that her father took her home - I can't imagine a father, not even T.Ray, to leave his daughter with complete strangers, not back in 1964, not today.
The last 3 couple of pages finally, the thing with her having a friend all of a sudden, Becca, was a bit far-fetched in my opinion - that all of her dreams came true at once.
I've got the edition with the questions in the annex. That's the Penguin edition and the annex is called A Reader's guide to the Secret Life of bees. It also features an interview with Sue Monk Kidd on how she created the book. If you are interested, I can post it or see if I can find it on the Internet.
The story is very sweet, the imagery and the women empowerment themes are great. I loved the calendar sisters, the Daughters of Mary and also Lily because there characters were very realistic - I could have imagined any of them to have lived some day.
My favorite character was June, I guess. I can't even say why, she had faults like all the characters in the story, but I loved her seriousness and that she was, although she was so very strong, afraid of living her life fully. That made her very human to me.
I did not enjoy the end as much, the last couple of pages - the romantic in me wanted Lily to stay with the calendar daughters and to be with Zack, but it would have been so much more realistic that her father took her home - I can't imagine a father, not even T.Ray, to leave his daughter with complete strangers, not back in 1964, not today.
The last 3 couple of pages finally, the thing with her having a friend all of a sudden, Becca, was a bit far-fetched in my opinion - that all of her dreams came true at once.
I've got the edition with the questions in the annex. That's the Penguin edition and the annex is called A Reader's guide to the Secret Life of bees. It also features an interview with Sue Monk Kidd on how she created the book. If you are interested, I can post it or see if I can find it on the Internet.
I don't think I am going to get this book by the end of the month. :(
Just finished the book last night at work. Interestingly, another co-worker of mine picked it up on her break after I finished it, and she couldn't put it down. She borrowed it to read it. Marion, I also have the Penguin edition, but since someone has borrowed my book, if we decide to talk about them, it might be helpful to have them posted. I'm a little bummed that I didn't look at them before I lent out the book. Oh well...*possible spoilers*
I agree with almost everything everybody said. And I think it's interesting that so far we've all basically had the same reaction. I really enjoyed the book. It was a nice fast read for me, which was really different from the previous book I read (Brideshead Revisited) because I couldn't read it fast, I had to read for details. I do agree that the part with T. Ray seemed very unrealistic. I was expecting her to go back with him and help him change by loving him. I thought there would be like an epilogue where she would have come back every summer to see August, June, and Zach and then the epilogue would have been at her wedding. But that's how the story went in my head. :)
I loved all of the quotes about the bees. I had a lot of fun reading them, which is surprising because normally I do not like to read quotes (especially long ones) in books and find them cumbersome to the story. But I really thought they contributed.
Alison, I completely agree with you about how far our country has come. I was really amazed to remember (for I've read about it before) how bad the country was 40 years ago. My dad lived through that time (my mom was in Montana where the racism problems were with the American Indians), and it's so weird to hear him talk about it. I don't want to cause a really tense racial discussion, but this has been really interesting because I have a roommate moving in anytime that I've never met and she's black. I have two adopted siblings from Korea and so race has never meant anything to me because my family is biracial. But, my mom and I have talked a little bit about the fact perhaps that my roommate might be nervous. She's hated her previous roommate, and so she might be nervous about living with me for many different reasons. I don't know. My parents live in Memphis (I used to live there and live in Nashville now), which sometimes seems like such a racial charged city; so racism is something I have thought a lot about. Race just never seems important to me in judging people, though I see that type of misjudgment almost every day that I am home in Memphis. But reading this book has really made me think about racism all over again as I wait for the arrival of my new roommate. It makes me sad that some people are still racist (thought I think that it probably can never go away completely) and also that some people cater to the racist ideal. Having lived in Memphis, I know that racism is not over. But I wonder what you guy's thoughts are on current racism in the country.
oh last question: who was your favorite character of the "Calendar sisters"? August, June, or May? And has anyone met anybody like May before? I've heard of people who are so compassionate that they take on the pain of others. But has anyone known someone?
Mod
It's difficult to discuss this book without touching on race, because race relations is a major theme. The way that people were treated so differently based on their skin color--particularly Zach when he is taken to jail--was really heart-wrenching and one would LIKE to think that our legal system is much more JUST currently, but I'm sure instances still exist. But, more postiively, it was nice to see the nurturing relationship that existed between Lily and Rosaleen, as well as August (regardless of race).
Reading this book during a time when we (Americans)are about to have our first African-American President is especially poignant, and really brings to light how ways of thinking can change so drastically between just one, or two generations of people.
Hannah: Best of luck with your new roomate. When I started nursing school (16 years ago), I did not know my roomate, but we have been friends ever since. Actually, we just were e-mailing last night. :)
Alison, thanks for the encouragement. My two very good friends are both at very difficult times in their lives, and I feel burdened with their burdens.... so I haven't had as much time to prepare for this new transition as I wished. But I'm so glad to hear a good success story. It gives me hope. Thanks. :)
Mod
That said, I like the discussion about "how far we've come" and yet how close it really is. When I watch the classic movies of the 40's (LOVE them), it's fascinating to think that they were about the same distance from the Civil War as we are from them. Watching them I see the leaps and bounds of societal evolution, yet I also see how little we've changed in so many ways.
Regarding race relations, I feel the same way. I was raised to see no difference in color. But I think how much more personal pride a person can have who was not raised as I was, but somehow has grown to see only that one color - the color of humanity. Regardless, sadly some hearts, and the hearts of some areas of this country - be they small or large communities, have not changed their ways.
Taking this to an international level, there is the epic and unending struggle between the Israelis and the Palestinians (to name one of many). There are those within each of those groups who have the ability to see no real difference and can embrace their counterparts. Sadly, at this point in history in that region of the world there are fewer of the accepting than those filled with resentment, bitterness, and hatred. Whether or not they will reach a state of peace in their hearts for and toward one another, there will be a time when things will be better. Yet, there still will always be those trained up and stuck in that prideful, twisted mindset because, just like the rest of us (hint-hint), they are human. We are human. And sadly, that is a part of humanity... the thing of it is, individually we choose just how much a part it is. I'd say in this case, less truly is more.
Mod
Yes, also the story was formulaic. But again to counter that, it had a resonance and beauty that cuts deep.
I'll talk more specifically about the characters, allegories, and themes in an later post, but on a personal note, my understanding of aspects of what Lily was feeling was overwhelming at times. I was, well, shocked. Unfortunately in my case, I don't have any amazing women around to build me up and love on me like she did. But I suppose at least it was rather therapeutic to cry through it!
thanks whichwaydidshego? for reminding me that we're an international group. I love that about this group, but as I've never lived in another country, I tend to forget to think internationally. I would love to look into different Civil Rights histories in other countries and see the comparison and contrasts to the USA.
I listened to this book while traveling to and from graduate school (45 minute drive each way). That was a few years ago, and I had forgotten why I loved it so much. When the film came out I decided to read it again, but haven't (I'll work on that). I just remember it was a truly great story.
just started it!
I found that this selection promised more than it delivered. Agree w/ the "low quality" assessment on the writing: the bee symbolism was WAY over the top, imho. The author's attempt to round out the flat character of T. Ray, well, fell flat - as did the main plot twist. That said, Lily was nonetheless captivating and her story, her growth, engaged me at least two thirds of the way through. I thoroughly enjoyed the well-drawn sisters, especially the complex queen-bee, August.I'm diving into Emma tonight: great choice!
First I wanted to say that here in this group we shouldn't assume that USA is "our" country. I love that this is an international group! So while I don't think anyone was, let's be sure we don't alienate (or for that matter confuse) anyone with comments based on that assumption.Thank you so much for that comment - its nice to be remembered! Not that id ever take any offence, especially to the 'how far we've come' comment as that could mean the human race. But that said as with most international websites, it is very US dominated, to certain extent that covers book choices and most popular reads too. Im a Londoner living on the bottom of the planet in Australia so its nice to be remembered occasionally!
Now after that - youll probably expell me from the group because i dont actually know who Rory Gilmore is! but i wanted to join in the bees discussiion as id never got involved in one to a book i was reading before. Thanks guys. x
Jon, I am European, too, (if you consider yourself European, that is : ) One never knows with you Britons ; ))from Germany.
I did not mind either that someone was referring to the US as their country - it is your country, after all, and I know that most members in our group live in the states. GG also is an US production.
Anyway, I don't think that civil rights date further back in any country. Speaking for my own, I can say that WE only got civil rights after WW2, as we were able to form a real constitution. I don't know how it is about the constitution of your countries, but the human and civil rights are the only paragraphs in our constitution that cannot be removed or changed. That is very telling and important to me, as it clearly shows how much mankind has evolved in the last couple of decades.
I did not mind either that someone was referring to the US as their country - it is your country, after all, and I know that most members in our group live in the states. GG also is an US production.
Anyway, I don't think that civil rights date further back in any country. Speaking for my own, I can say that WE only got civil rights after WW2, as we were able to form a real constitution. I don't know how it is about the constitution of your countries, but the human and civil rights are the only paragraphs in our constitution that cannot be removed or changed. That is very telling and important to me, as it clearly shows how much mankind has evolved in the last couple of decades.
I read this book some months ago and really loved it.. So far it is among my top 10 books!!
Well said Marion - actually im not entirely sure when we got it in Britain - i certainly know the situation was pretty appalling in Australia until at least the 70's. And the government only recently (2008) apologised officially for the 'Stolen Generation' where half caste Aboriginals were foricibly removed from their families to be raised by whites, which was going on till something like the 50's. And..yes i consider myself as European, but also English and then British and to a certain extent Australian (after all I have the passport!) - so a bit confusing - I probably support which ever team is winning if its a sport lol.
Anyway...feel free to go back to discussing bees folks, sorry for intrusion!
Mod
So, I guess some of our international members might have to do a little research into American history to get the full grasp of this novel. As I have to do research whenever I'm reading a novel written by someone from another country (or let's say I should).
I'm thinking about giving this one two stars instead of three. It just felt so predictable! I'll have to work it out in my review. :)
Jon--I'm so glad you decided to join us. If you haven't googled her by now--Rory Gilmore was a character on the television series "The Gilmore Girls" who was known for being a strong and intelligent young lady and a constant reader. The show put out an official list of books mentioned on their series, from which we select a monthly reading here. We also talk about the series in other threads, but you certainly don't have to watch the show to get in on the discussions. Nominations are open for March in the voting thread below. :)
Jon wrote: " First I wanted to say that here in this group we shouldn't assume that USA is "our" country. I love that this is an international group! So while I don't think anyone was, let's be sure we don't a..."Don't worry, a number of us never saw GG before joining the group, and I imagine lots of us still haven't. It's not always a part of many of the discussions, and the booklist is great!
I confess, it's been a long time since I read this book, but I did recently see the movie. Do any of you feel that, given the time and location in which the story takes place, the positiveness of the relationships between races, at least for the main characters, was a little unrealistic? I just have a hard time believing that the "calendar sisters" were so insulated from the negative actions of the bigoted community.
Well, I don't see their relationship as unrealistic at all. For one thing, there are ALWAYS nonjudgemental people around who connect to a basic humanity . . . Also, I believe the common knowledge to be at least partially true: that is, the North was globally correct, but individually prejudiced, while in the South the reverse was true.
Natalie wrote: "Well, I don't see their relationship as unrealistic at all. For one thing, there are ALWAYS nonjudgemental people around who connect to a basic humanity . . . Also, I believe the common knowledge t..."Yes, being from Michigan and attending college there, I remember an (African-American) instructor commenting how the people in the north were just more sneaky about their prejudices. I really wanted to believe the stuff about Lily and Zach especially. I just wondered how many young black men would really be so brave. And I SO wanted them to somehow get together!
I just finished the book..i really enjoyed it. I agree..the writing was not fantastic..and it was pretty much predictable. I really did like alot of the characters and their development throughout the story. I wish that T. Ray would have just ended up treating her nicely at the end. My favorite sister was August. I just really loved her. When i was reading it, like so many of you, I thought of how i could not imagine living in a society like that. I was thinking about how the church congregations and the pastor even were horrible to the African Americans..and i just sat there wondering, as a Christian, how could a Christian justify that...I mean..as I have been taught..as a Christian you are to love people..everyone. and i can't fathom how it could be justified as a Christian. I think it shows just how deep the racism ran..which is so sad..because i can't imagine myself hating someone based on their color..we have come a long way..but at the same time..i still think the racism is there..i saw it come out during the elections..Prior to reading this book I read The Book Thief..and it was the same sort of reaction..how can people really think this way..that they are better than other people based on color, ethnicity, religion, etc.??
Wow, it's been a while since I have read this book. I remeber after I read it I lvoed it. So much so that I bought The Mermaid Chiar by Sue Monk Kidd. Now I am having a hard time recalling details. I will have to go back and re-read. lol. I know that I really liked the metaphors and symbolism that Kidd uses in the book(it may have been over the top but it was still pretty good). I will have to refresh my memory to discuss it thoroughly. As far as language and writing goes (from what I can remember),it was not shakespeare or hemmingway, but I did not think that that took away from the story at all. I found that the story flowed well and defintiely captivated my attention.
At the time that I read the book, I did not think much about Lily and Zach's relationship. The only thing I thought was that I loved them together :D I think that their relationship was realistic. They were both young and the younger generation always seems to be a little more open minded than the previous generation.
I do think that the sisters proably would have faced more problems than they did. That is only because of the numerous hate crimes that were going on during the time of the civil rights movmement. They would have been born into the middle of that.
I was wondering though what you all thought of May's Chraracter and her "wall". I remember of the three sisters she intrigued me the most. Now I just have to remember why.....
Perhaps you remember her because she was, by far, the most ORIGINAL character: even though the writing could be improved, I give Kidd major kudos for that. Her humming of Oh, Susanna when bad stuff happened was hilarious . . . more importantly, creating her own Wailing (now Western) Wall was certainly a unique - and for her - effective way of dealing w/ pain. It also added, for better or worse, to the ecumenical attitude toward religion. Could say more, but don't want to get into spoiler territory.
i thought May was incredibly intriguing as well.
I also read The Secret Life of Bees a few years back and only remember that I really enjoyed it and was excited when The Mermaid Chair came out. The Mermaid Chair was a total dissapointment to me. It's on my worst book list!
Mod
Jamie wrote: "i thought May was incredibly intriguing as well."i loved may so much - she was a modern-day 'atlas'; that was her charm and flaw. i think i loved what she represented because it was the best and lowest parts of humanity. man, that heart that reached out for [and wept:] for the world?
hell of a character.
Mod
hell of a character."
REALLY great character synopsis, Rayshauna. And I wholeheartedly agree. She was the heart-anchor of the family, and in many ways the book (in my humble opinion).
Mod
That is an excellent point!
Finally will be picking up my book today!
So, so excellent. This was the best book I've read in a while.I don't think I will ever see the movie, though; when a book is this good, I don't like to risk ruining it with a movie that I might not care for.
I read "The Secret Life of Bees" last year, I really enjoyed it. I would like to re-read it again. I haven't seen the film yet, but plan to when it comes to DVD.
It is a beautiful coming of age story and anyone who has a relationship with a special woman or a few special women will be longing for more time with them.
Yay I've wanted to read this for a while, and this will finally give me incentive to read it!
I just finished this book yesterday and it was a fast read. I enjoyed it very much, but I was a little disappointed at the end. I expected it to be more complex instead of 'all her dreams came true'. I believe someone made a comment about that. I wasn't interested in seeing the movie, but now I'm curious.
Mod
Dini, I suppose that's true. I would've prefered an ending where there was more closure with the father. I don't like how he just left her there. I would've like to know the reasons why he changed so much.
I agree about the ending...a reconciliation with T. Ray would have made me feel a little more warm & fuzzy than Lily staying with August. I would have loved to know more about T. Ray, but I realize it's Lily's story.
Mod
I like endings like the one in this book better than endings where everything works out in a nice neat package. I feel like if Lily had reconciled with T. Ray it would have been too much like a cliche fairytale ending. That's just me though and my opinion, I am not a fairytale ending kind of person.
Mod
Yes, I had the same impression, especially as we then got a glimpse of how her life was going to continue and she suddenly had a best friend, something she never has had in her life before, and her friend also tolerates Zach. That was when it was too much for me.
