The Importance of Reading Ernest discussion

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Short Happy...Francis Macomber > "American Female Cruelty."

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message 1: by Brad (new)

Brad (judekyle) | 219 comments Mod
So what do you think? Is there anything to what Wilson sees as "American female cruelty" (or can we say North American)? Has it disappeared since Hemingway's day? Has it intensified? Did it never really exist?


message 2: by Gio (new)

Gio (giobannaschlitz) i think its a crock of shit. male cruelty is seen as being macho...and in the end, for a woman, it implies she's a bitch. same arguement, different label to me.


message 3: by Brad (new)

Brad (judekyle) | 219 comments Mod
Have you ever met a man who is "macho" that anyone likes? I agree that they are the same argument -- male and female cruelty -- and I think they are perceived similarly today. Cruel women are bitches, macho men (and macho certainly has a negative connotation unless it is being applied ironically to the Village People) are pricks. In fact, I'd say "macho" is just giving way to the terms "prick" or "asshole."

So maybe the real thread of discussion should be about how the view and application of female cruelty has changed from Hemingway's time to now.

An aside: even Hemingway himself is often derided today as being the "macho," chauvinistic, all-American male asshole(tags for him that I tend to disagree with), and much of his work is ignored based on those views of him. Machismo can and does have a negative impact on men in society. There is a lot less success and admiration attached than we have been led to believe.


message 4: by Gio (new)

Gio (giobannaschlitz) I think you're right - now has the view/application changed. Pardon my ignorance, but I have to research his time. ha ha


message 5: by Stephen (new)

Stephen (stephenT) Hmm, I started to hate Wilson from the start, because of his inner chit-chat about women. Personally, I think Wilson is Hemingway and reflecting his own views perfectly. How many women did he go through in his life?

The ending of the story seemed less about the bravery of Francis, and more about Wilson humiliating Margot.


message 6: by Brad (new)

Brad (judekyle) | 219 comments Mod
I imagine Hemingway saw it the other way around (at least partially)...that his women went through him.


message 7: by Stephen (new)

Stephen (stephenT) Very likely, but then again that hyper-masculinity.


message 8: by Gary (last edited Aug 14, 2009 02:43PM) (new)

Gary | 400 comments Mod
Stephen wrote: "Very likely, but then again that hyper-masculinity."

with the hyper-masculinity, was hemingway covering it up that he was a queen, as capote said???? was heminway attracted to men?it's like-----ok------ do i dare ask that question now??

i have read in papers before that hemingway went through his women, because he felt he had to have a woman in his life,to cover up his true sexual identity,and even there's been rumors that pauline might have been a lesbian. some of the pictures she sure looks masculine,and his last wife mary, kinda does too in some photos.



message 9: by Gary (last edited Aug 14, 2009 02:47PM) (new)

Gary | 400 comments Mod
and it would be easier for papa to say ,well,i had so many women in my life,because they were difficult,etc. his 3rd wife didn't last too long because she was so independent,andsuch,that's true. but you know,i've always wondered about this, and maybe his father had the same issues, when they both committed suicide,and dealing with depression, etc???

shoot me now???lol!!


message 10: by Stephen (new)

Stephen (stephenT) I don't know. Hemingway was a complex man, and I have no judgment on him. I am speaking only of my impressions.


message 11: by Brad (new)

Brad (judekyle) | 219 comments Mod
I think it is quite possible, Gary, but I don't think he was a "queen" the way we, or even Capote, would have meant it. I imagine he was more likely bisexual. I think he loved women, but I'm guessing he loved men too. I also think that bisexuality is far harder to deal with than heterosexuality or homosexuality. There is a sense of belonging to the latter two, while the former often finds itself mocked or belittled by the "heteros" and "homos". Bisexuals are often seen by both groups as people who are simply unable to commit to their "true" sexuality, and their sexuality is often written off as impossible. I can see this being extremely difficult for both Papa and his father if it is true.


message 12: by Stephen (new)

Stephen (stephenT) As much as I hate to say this, I don't really think it fair to delve into a dead mans sexuality. What we have of his life is best found in his books. We can apply our interpretative apparatus, but in truth, we will never be able to say, "Hemingway was 100%, or even 50-50." Then again, does it show in his texts?


message 13: by Gary (new)

Gary | 400 comments Mod
I think it does show in his texts.That's the point,isn't it??? Don't mean to speak ill of the dead,but I truly believe that many of the characters and situations in his stories,and novels, do dwell with his homosexuality, or bisexuality whichever it was. The man did his best with all the "macho" stuff to hide his true identity, but then it resurfaces in his works,and I really do think it reflects the man he truly was.


message 14: by Brad (new)

Brad (judekyle) | 219 comments Mod
So much to say, but I am busy cooking pecan encrusted chicken ;)


message 15: by Stephen (new)

Stephen (stephenT) I bet Montambo would have a great cake for pecan encrusted chicken.


message 16: by Gary (new)

Gary | 400 comments Mod
say it, brad,say it!!


message 17: by Brad (new)

Brad (judekyle) | 219 comments Mod
Wow am I pissed! I just wrote a monster response, and the damn thing had trouble with my post and it disappeared. SHIT!


message 18: by Gary (new)

Gary | 400 comments Mod
try again. it's happened to me before. you suck it up,and do it again. sorry. buddy!


message 19: by Stephen (new)

Stephen (stephenT) Brad, you should have waited for the cake.


message 20: by Brad (new)

Brad (judekyle) | 219 comments Mod
I should have, Stephen.

I wrote my long post here last night after writing an equally long review of Hyperion, and I just couldn't face rewriting. I'll try to do it again in a day or so. I promise Gary.


message 21: by John (new)

John Karr (karr) | 21 comments Certainly there is cruelty, for both genders, caused by both genders.


message 22: by Gary (new)

Gary | 400 comments Mod
Brad wrote: "I should have, Stephen.

I wrote my long post here last night after writing an equally long review of Hyperion, and I just couldn't face rewriting. I'll try to do it again in a day or so. I promis..."



and where is it, brad??? *evil smirk*


message 23: by Brad (new)

Brad (judekyle) | 219 comments Mod
I forgot all about that promise. Isn't there a statute of limitations ;)


message 24: by Gary (new)

Gary | 400 comments Mod
lol!!


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